Why Aida/Scribo failed to me

Previous Topic Next Topic
 
classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
23 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Why Aida/Scribo failed to me

garduino
First of all let me say that the following opinions aren't
destructives, only are my feelings and opinions
after several months trying to use Aida/Scribo on production customers.

And I must admit, I failed.

Why failed? I will try not to go at the position were the
responsability is only of others,
surely a big part is of mine, but I think that some points on this
incipient community are
not going by the way of get a successful open source project.

The developers of a project that wants to release it as real open
source, that means providing
a way to others programmers understand the design and big picture to
start helping on the project
as fast as possible, need to take care not only of program and code
and design. They NEED to take
care of provide the path to other pogrammers get inserted in the
internals of the project.

And on Aida/Scribo I noted that despite of the calls on the lists to
use/try it, currently only
two persons are in position of make changes, solve bugs, etc.

I note a discrepancy between the calls to use the products and what
the products are really doing
on these days, I means, the products are not ready to be used on
production if the user/developer
isn't an Aida/Scribo core developer.

That was my experience, I tried, spent lot and lot of time, only to
make 1 step ahead and 2 backward.

When I got enthusiasted by the mails calling to use Aida and friends I
tried to use, learn, examine code,
adapt my needs to the features that were, after so weren't anymore and
now seems to be again (as "sites"
feature), but soon I get stucked in the middle of different versions,
not clear who works with who, not
clear what are the timeframes to have some coherent versions working,
with errors on the versions I'm using
(I know are Beta but still) and without the capability of arrange
nothing. Why not? Because doesn't exist
a way to introduce new developers on your products.

The proof is that only 2 guys are the core developers, and by no means
an open source project can grow
at this way.

I understand that the core developers need to eat/pay the bills/etc as
all of us, then more important
(if they really wants ot make the projects OPEN) is try to spend a bit
of their little time on explaining
internal things (with documentation or screencast or any other way) to
help other programmers start working.

By example, on Scribo, a sort of explanation about the model and how
the whole thing was thinked and how
to extend or modify its behaviour, not how to use it as user.

Other useful things to an open source community are:

* A clear identifications of versions that works together and its
features and repos.

* A plan to the new releases with features that will come and possible dates.

And if the dates will be far, the best things that may be done is say
the true, the real estimated dates or,
simply, some sort of "When I can, because my priority isn't the open stuff".

That will avoid other people remains awaiting things that never will comes.

To end, the way to make a succesful open source project isn't only 1
or 2 guys working and others only
watching and awaiting. Several of us want to help, I'm sure, but no
way, not a path to be part of core developers easily.

Why not a path? May be because the core developers aren't having time
to think on these things, or because they think
that must spend their little time on users more than on developers
(but here I think that users and developers
are synonyms) or becasue the core developers don't wants others touch
their code?

Now I must leave Aida/Scribo, now I'm sure that the new releases and
features will come very very slow and will need time,
but know this took my months. Isn't nice.

Well, as I've said when started, only trying to transmit my feelings
and may be this opinions could help this
community.

Cheers.

--
Germán S. Arduino
http://www.arsol.biz
http://www.arsol.net
_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why Aida/Scribo failed to me

Nicolas Petton
Thanks for your feedbacks German.

Experiences, even bad ones, are important, they make us think, change
and evolve.

Be sure that we will take your opinions seriously, and I hope that you
will change your mind eventually.

Cheers!

Nico


Le lundi 16 mars 2009 à 12:56 -0200, Germán Arduino a écrit :

> First of all let me say that the following opinions aren't
> destructives, only are my feelings and opinions
> after several months trying to use Aida/Scribo on production customers.
>
> And I must admit, I failed.
>
> Why failed? I will try not to go at the position were the
> responsability is only of others,
> surely a big part is of mine, but I think that some points on this
> incipient community are
> not going by the way of get a successful open source project.
>
> The developers of a project that wants to release it as real open
> source, that means providing
> a way to others programmers understand the design and big picture to
> start helping on the project
> as fast as possible, need to take care not only of program and code
> and design. They NEED to take
> care of provide the path to other pogrammers get inserted in the
> internals of the project.
>
> And on Aida/Scribo I noted that despite of the calls on the lists to
> use/try it, currently only
> two persons are in position of make changes, solve bugs, etc.
>
> I note a discrepancy between the calls to use the products and what
> the products are really doing
> on these days, I means, the products are not ready to be used on
> production if the user/developer
> isn't an Aida/Scribo core developer.
>
> That was my experience, I tried, spent lot and lot of time, only to
> make 1 step ahead and 2 backward.
>
> When I got enthusiasted by the mails calling to use Aida and friends I
> tried to use, learn, examine code,
> adapt my needs to the features that were, after so weren't anymore and
> now seems to be again (as "sites"
> feature), but soon I get stucked in the middle of different versions,
> not clear who works with who, not
> clear what are the timeframes to have some coherent versions working,
> with errors on the versions I'm using
> (I know are Beta but still) and without the capability of arrange
> nothing. Why not? Because doesn't exist
> a way to introduce new developers on your products.
>
> The proof is that only 2 guys are the core developers, and by no means
> an open source project can grow
> at this way.
>
> I understand that the core developers need to eat/pay the bills/etc as
> all of us, then more important
> (if they really wants ot make the projects OPEN) is try to spend a bit
> of their little time on explaining
> internal things (with documentation or screencast or any other way) to
> help other programmers start working.
>
> By example, on Scribo, a sort of explanation about the model and how
> the whole thing was thinked and how
> to extend or modify its behaviour, not how to use it as user.
>
> Other useful things to an open source community are:
>
> * A clear identifications of versions that works together and its
> features and repos.
>
> * A plan to the new releases with features that will come and possible dates.
>
> And if the dates will be far, the best things that may be done is say
> the true, the real estimated dates or,
> simply, some sort of "When I can, because my priority isn't the open stuff".
>
> That will avoid other people remains awaiting things that never will comes.
>
> To end, the way to make a succesful open source project isn't only 1
> or 2 guys working and others only
> watching and awaiting. Several of us want to help, I'm sure, but no
> way, not a path to be part of core developers easily.
>
> Why not a path? May be because the core developers aren't having time
> to think on these things, or because they think
> that must spend their little time on users more than on developers
> (but here I think that users and developers
> are synonyms) or becasue the core developers don't wants others touch
> their code?
>
> Now I must leave Aida/Scribo, now I'm sure that the new releases and
> features will come very very slow and will need time,
> but know this took my months. Isn't nice.
>
> Well, as I've said when started, only trying to transmit my feelings
> and may be this opinions could help this
> community.
>
> Cheers.
>
> --
> Germán S. Arduino
> http://www.arsol.biz
> http://www.arsol.net
> _______________________________________________
> Aida mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

signature.asc (204 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why Aida/Scribo failed to me

BrunoBB
In reply to this post by garduino
German,

I do not know what happen with your project and i never used Scribo,
but i?m using AIDA for some projects.
I'm using AIDA 5 for Dolphin (eventually i will port the last version
to Dolphin NG), but i was capable to do what i want it.

Why do you tell us your problems and may be some one can help you ?
Since I use Dolphin and the AIDA version is pretty stable i can not
argue in Squeak world.

I think if have enough time you can change the AIDA code by your own
and then send the change to this list.

I?m not an AIDA expert but in a couple of hours i was able to change
the naming convention of AIDA (viewXXXX methods for tabs) and use one
of my own.
I mean some of my classes use Aida in the normal way, in another class
the naming convention to draw a web page have been changed, in only a
couple of hours.
So to ME the flexibility has no price...

>on these days, I means, the products are not ready to be used on
>production if the user/developer
>isn't an Aida/Scribo core developer.

Well, i?m not a Aida core developer but i change a lot of internal
staff of AIDA, so i disagree with you here.
May be it take time but is not difficult to change Aida.

To a production environment is a RULE to use the last stable version
although may be not all features are present.

>nothing. Why not? Because doesn't exist
>a way to introduce new developers on your products.

I have to desagree here too. I want to use it you can do it, you have
ALL the source code.
This is the way i did.

Regards,
Bruno


>----Mensaje original----
>De: [hidden email]
>Fecha: 16/03/2009 11:56
>Para: "AIDA/Web general discussion list"<[hidden email]>
>Asunto: [aida] Why Aida/Scribo failed to me
>
>First of all let me say that the following opinions aren't
>destructives, only are my feelings and opinions
>after several months trying to use Aida/Scribo on production
customers.

>
>And I must admit, I failed.
>
>Why failed? I will try not to go at the position were the
>responsability is only of others,
>surely a big part is of mine, but I think that some points on this
>incipient community are
>not going by the way of get a successful open source project.
>
>The developers of a project that wants to release it as real open
>source, that means providing
>a way to others programmers understand the design and big picture to
>start helping on the project
>as fast as possible, need to take care not only of program and code
>and design. They NEED to take
>care of provide the path to other pogrammers get inserted in the
>internals of the project.
>
>And on Aida/Scribo I noted that despite of the calls on the lists to
>use/try it, currently only
>two persons are in position of make changes, solve bugs, etc.
>
>I note a discrepancy between the calls to use the products and what
>the products are really doing
>on these days, I means, the products are not ready to be used on
>production if the user/developer
>isn't an Aida/Scribo core developer.
>
>That was my experience, I tried, spent lot and lot of time, only to
>make 1 step ahead and 2 backward.
>
>When I got enthusiasted by the mails calling to use Aida and friends
I
>tried to use, learn, examine code,
>adapt my needs to the features that were, after so weren't anymore
and

>now seems to be again (as "sites"
>feature), but soon I get stucked in the middle of different versions,
>not clear who works with who, not
>clear what are the timeframes to have some coherent versions working,
>with errors on the versions I'm using
>(I know are Beta but still) and without the capability of arrange
>nothing. Why not? Because doesn't exist
>a way to introduce new developers on your products.
>
>The proof is that only 2 guys are the core developers, and by no
means
>an open source project can grow
>at this way.
>
>I understand that the core developers need to eat/pay the bills/etc
as
>all of us, then more important
>(if they really wants ot make the projects OPEN) is try to spend a
bit
>of their little time on explaining
>internal things (with documentation or screencast or any other way)
to

>help other programmers start working.
>
>By example, on Scribo, a sort of explanation about the model and how
>the whole thing was thinked and how
>to extend or modify its behaviour, not how to use it as user.
>
>Other useful things to an open source community are:
>
>* A clear identifications of versions that works together and its
>features and repos.
>
>* A plan to the new releases with features that will come and
possible dates.
>
>And if the dates will be far, the best things that may be done is say
>the true, the real estimated dates or,
>simply, some sort of "When I can, because my priority isn't the open
stuff".
>
>That will avoid other people remains awaiting things that never will
comes.

>
>To end, the way to make a succesful open source project isn't only 1
>or 2 guys working and others only
>watching and awaiting. Several of us want to help, I'm sure, but no
>way, not a path to be part of core developers easily.
>
>Why not a path? May be because the core developers aren't having time
>to think on these things, or because they think
>that must spend their little time on users more than on developers
>(but here I think that users and developers
>are synonyms) or becasue the core developers don't wants others touch
>their code?
>
>Now I must leave Aida/Scribo, now I'm sure that the new releases and
>features will come very very slow and will need time,
>but know this took my months. Isn't nice.
>
>Well, as I've said when started, only trying to transmit my feelings
>and may be this opinions could help this
>community.
>
>Cheers.
>
>--
>Germán S. Arduino
>http://www.arsol.biz
>http://www.arsol.net
>_______________________________________________
>Aida mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
>


_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why Aida/Scribo failed to me

garduino
Hi Bruno:

I respect a lot your opinions and, as I've said before, the mail only
express my own
opinions.

May be we have a different approach of somethings, and in some point I commented
about my own fault trying to use on production products not yet stable
(Because I got
enthusiasted with the new features I was needing).

Anyway I think that exist better methods that read all the source
code. All the Linux kernel is available, but is possible to understand
it without some explanations? I feelt the same with Aida/Scribo. May
be my own human limitations, but lot of examples exist about this.
When you must take care of code written by other people on any job,
don't need the original authors explanining somethings?.

Nothing wrong with Aida/Scribo if you have the time to await the new
releases or the time (big time to me) to understand by your own all
the source code. I'm only pointing things that might be improved.

Regards.



2009/3/16 [hidden email] <[hidden email]>:

> German,
>
> I do not know what happen with your project and i never used Scribo,
> but i?m using AIDA for some projects.
> I'm using AIDA 5 for Dolphin (eventually i will port the last version
> to Dolphin NG), but i was capable to do what i want it.
>
> Why do you tell us your problems and may be some one can help you ?
> Since I use Dolphin and the AIDA version is pretty stable i can not
> argue in Squeak world.
>
> I think if have enough time you can change the AIDA code by your own
> and then send the change to this list.
>
> I?m not an AIDA expert but in a couple of hours i was able to change
> the naming convention of AIDA (viewXXXX methods for tabs) and use one
> of my own.
> I mean some of my classes use Aida in the normal way, in another class
> the naming convention to draw a web page have been changed, in only a
> couple of hours.
> So to ME the flexibility has no price...
>
>>on these days, I means, the products are not ready to be used on
>>production if the user/developer
>>isn't an Aida/Scribo core developer.
>
> Well, i?m not a Aida core developer but i change a lot of internal
> staff of AIDA, so i disagree with you here.
> May be it take time but is not difficult to change Aida.
>
> To a production environment is a RULE to use the last stable version
> although may be not all features are present.
>
>>nothing. Why not? Because doesn't exist
>>a way to introduce new developers on your products.
>
> I have to desagree here too. I want to use it you can do it, you have
> ALL the source code.
> This is the way i did.
>
> Regards,
> Bruno
>
>
>>----Mensaje original----
>>De: [hidden email]
>>Fecha: 16/03/2009 11:56
>>Para: "AIDA/Web general discussion list"<[hidden email]>
>>Asunto: [aida] Why Aida/Scribo failed to me
>>
>>First of all let me say that the following opinions aren't
>>destructives, only are my feelings and opinions
>>after several months trying to use Aida/Scribo on production
> customers.
>>
>>And I must admit, I failed.
>>
>>Why failed? I will try not to go at the position were the
>>responsability is only of others,
>>surely a big part is of mine, but I think that some points on this
>>incipient community are
>>not going by the way of get a successful open source project.
>>
>>The developers of a project that wants to release it as real open
>>source, that means providing
>>a way to others programmers understand the design and big picture to
>>start helping on the project
>>as fast as possible, need to take care not only of program and code
>>and design. They NEED to take
>>care of provide the path to other pogrammers get inserted in the
>>internals of the project.
>>
>>And on Aida/Scribo I noted that despite of the calls on the lists to
>>use/try it, currently only
>>two persons are in position of make changes, solve bugs, etc.
>>
>>I note a discrepancy between the calls to use the products and what
>>the products are really doing
>>on these days, I means, the products are not ready to be used on
>>production if the user/developer
>>isn't an Aida/Scribo core developer.
>>
>>That was my experience, I tried, spent lot and lot of time, only to
>>make 1 step ahead and 2 backward.
>>
>>When I got enthusiasted by the mails calling to use Aida and friends
> I
>>tried to use, learn, examine code,
>>adapt my needs to the features that were, after so weren't anymore
> and
>>now seems to be again (as "sites"
>>feature), but soon I get stucked in the middle of different versions,
>>not clear who works with who, not
>>clear what are the timeframes to have some coherent versions working,
>>with errors on the versions I'm using
>>(I know are Beta but still) and without the capability of arrange
>>nothing. Why not? Because doesn't exist
>>a way to introduce new developers on your products.
>>
>>The proof is that only 2 guys are the core developers, and by no
> means
>>an open source project can grow
>>at this way.
>>
>>I understand that the core developers need to eat/pay the bills/etc
> as
>>all of us, then more important
>>(if they really wants ot make the projects OPEN) is try to spend a
> bit
>>of their little time on explaining
>>internal things (with documentation or screencast or any other way)
> to
>>help other programmers start working.
>>
>>By example, on Scribo, a sort of explanation about the model and how
>>the whole thing was thinked and how
>>to extend or modify its behaviour, not how to use it as user.
>>
>>Other useful things to an open source community are:
>>
>>* A clear identifications of versions that works together and its
>>features and repos.
>>
>>* A plan to the new releases with features that will come and
> possible dates.
>>
>>And if the dates will be far, the best things that may be done is say
>>the true, the real estimated dates or,
>>simply, some sort of "When I can, because my priority isn't the open
> stuff".
>>
>>That will avoid other people remains awaiting things that never will
> comes.
>>
>>To end, the way to make a succesful open source project isn't only 1
>>or 2 guys working and others only
>>watching and awaiting. Several of us want to help, I'm sure, but no
>>way, not a path to be part of core developers easily.
>>
>>Why not a path? May be because the core developers aren't having time
>>to think on these things, or because they think
>>that must spend their little time on users more than on developers
>>(but here I think that users and developers
>>are synonyms) or becasue the core developers don't wants others touch
>>their code?
>>
>>Now I must leave Aida/Scribo, now I'm sure that the new releases and
>>features will come very very slow and will need time,
>>but know this took my months. Isn't nice.
>>
>>Well, as I've said when started, only trying to transmit my feelings
>>and may be this opinions could help this
>>community.
>>
>>Cheers.
>>
>>--
>>Germán S. Arduino
>>http://www.arsol.biz
>>http://www.arsol.net
>>_______________________________________________
>>Aida mailing list
>>[hidden email]
>>http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aida mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
>
_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why Aida/Scribo failed to me

Janko Mivšek
Hi Germán,

I think Bruno answered you pretty well and let me add just few thoughts:

   - there are two products here, one is Aida, the other is Scribo. Aida
5.6 is stable, 6.0 in beta. Scribo is in beta. And you are arguing about
your failure with a beta. Remember, our beta is not the same as Google
beta :)

   - but even that Scribo is beta, it is used in production, from
running for months http://www.squeak.org, to many other public and
intranet websites, not to mention that Scribo is actually an open source
spin-off of commercial BiArt product, running for 5 years already.

   - that means that core functionality of Scribo is proven in practice
and can be considered as stable even that Scribo overall is still beta

   - because it is beta, you cannot expect much docs in advance. Docs,
examples and other will come through the time and there are quite some
examples already available for study, including a complete code for
squeak.org website.

And for conclusion, I even prepared and send you a complete code for
aidaweb.si site, in VW. From events around your trials to run that code
I'm more and more inclining to the conclusion, that maybe you are
lacking some basic Smalltalk skills, like debugging and specially trying
to find a reason for the problem by yourself. This involves a will to
study the code too of course, and specially with betas you will live
hard without debugging and studying code by your own.

But even more for a production you need to know your tools deep enough
to be able to solve any problem by yourself. I always study my tools
(like Smalltalk environments) to certain depth exactly for that reason -
to be near 100% self sufficient in case of troubles. But this never
implies that I need to know such tools as deep as their core developers
need to.

Best regards
Janko

Germán Arduino pravi:

> Hi Bruno:
>
> I respect a lot your opinions and, as I've said before, the mail only
> express my own
> opinions.
>
> May be we have a different approach of somethings, and in some point I commented
> about my own fault trying to use on production products not yet stable
> (Because I got
> enthusiasted with the new features I was needing).
>
> Anyway I think that exist better methods that read all the source
> code. All the Linux kernel is available, but is possible to understand
> it without some explanations? I feelt the same with Aida/Scribo. May
> be my own human limitations, but lot of examples exist about this.
> When you must take care of code written by other people on any job,
> don't need the original authors explanining somethings?.
>
> Nothing wrong with Aida/Scribo if you have the time to await the new
> releases or the time (big time to me) to understand by your own all
> the source code. I'm only pointing things that might be improved.
>
> Regards.
>
>
>
> 2009/3/16 [hidden email] <[hidden email]>:
>> German,
>>
>> I do not know what happen with your project and i never used Scribo,
>> but i?m using AIDA for some projects.
>> I'm using AIDA 5 for Dolphin (eventually i will port the last version
>> to Dolphin NG), but i was capable to do what i want it.
>>
>> Why do you tell us your problems and may be some one can help you ?
>> Since I use Dolphin and the AIDA version is pretty stable i can not
>> argue in Squeak world.
>>
>> I think if have enough time you can change the AIDA code by your own
>> and then send the change to this list.
>>
>> I?m not an AIDA expert but in a couple of hours i was able to change
>> the naming convention of AIDA (viewXXXX methods for tabs) and use one
>> of my own.
>> I mean some of my classes use Aida in the normal way, in another class
>> the naming convention to draw a web page have been changed, in only a
>> couple of hours.
>> So to ME the flexibility has no price...
>>
>>> on these days, I means, the products are not ready to be used on
>>> production if the user/developer
>>> isn't an Aida/Scribo core developer.
>> Well, i?m not a Aida core developer but i change a lot of internal
>> staff of AIDA, so i disagree with you here.
>> May be it take time but is not difficult to change Aida.
>>
>> To a production environment is a RULE to use the last stable version
>> although may be not all features are present.
>>
>>> nothing. Why not? Because doesn't exist
>>> a way to introduce new developers on your products.
>> I have to desagree here too. I want to use it you can do it, you have
>> ALL the source code.
>> This is the way i did.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>> ----Mensaje original----
>>> De: [hidden email]
>>> Fecha: 16/03/2009 11:56
>>> Para: "AIDA/Web general discussion list"<[hidden email]>
>>> Asunto: [aida] Why Aida/Scribo failed to me
>>>
>>> First of all let me say that the following opinions aren't
>>> destructives, only are my feelings and opinions
>>> after several months trying to use Aida/Scribo on production
>> customers.
>>> And I must admit, I failed.
>>>
>>> Why failed? I will try not to go at the position were the
>>> responsability is only of others,
>>> surely a big part is of mine, but I think that some points on this
>>> incipient community are
>>> not going by the way of get a successful open source project.
>>>
>>> The developers of a project that wants to release it as real open
>>> source, that means providing
>>> a way to others programmers understand the design and big picture to
>>> start helping on the project
>>> as fast as possible, need to take care not only of program and code
>>> and design. They NEED to take
>>> care of provide the path to other pogrammers get inserted in the
>>> internals of the project.
>>>
>>> And on Aida/Scribo I noted that despite of the calls on the lists to
>>> use/try it, currently only
>>> two persons are in position of make changes, solve bugs, etc.
>>>
>>> I note a discrepancy between the calls to use the products and what
>>> the products are really doing
>>> on these days, I means, the products are not ready to be used on
>>> production if the user/developer
>>> isn't an Aida/Scribo core developer.
>>>
>>> That was my experience, I tried, spent lot and lot of time, only to
>>> make 1 step ahead and 2 backward.
>>>
>>> When I got enthusiasted by the mails calling to use Aida and friends
>> I
>>> tried to use, learn, examine code,
>>> adapt my needs to the features that were, after so weren't anymore
>> and
>>> now seems to be again (as "sites"
>>> feature), but soon I get stucked in the middle of different versions,
>>> not clear who works with who, not
>>> clear what are the timeframes to have some coherent versions working,
>>> with errors on the versions I'm using
>>> (I know are Beta but still) and without the capability of arrange
>>> nothing. Why not? Because doesn't exist
>>> a way to introduce new developers on your products.
>>>
>>> The proof is that only 2 guys are the core developers, and by no
>> means
>>> an open source project can grow
>>> at this way.
>>>
>>> I understand that the core developers need to eat/pay the bills/etc
>> as
>>> all of us, then more important
>>> (if they really wants ot make the projects OPEN) is try to spend a
>> bit
>>> of their little time on explaining
>>> internal things (with documentation or screencast or any other way)
>> to
>>> help other programmers start working.
>>>
>>> By example, on Scribo, a sort of explanation about the model and how
>>> the whole thing was thinked and how
>>> to extend or modify its behaviour, not how to use it as user.
>>>
>>> Other useful things to an open source community are:
>>>
>>> * A clear identifications of versions that works together and its
>>> features and repos.
>>>
>>> * A plan to the new releases with features that will come and
>> possible dates.
>>> And if the dates will be far, the best things that may be done is say
>>> the true, the real estimated dates or,
>>> simply, some sort of "When I can, because my priority isn't the open
>> stuff".
>>> That will avoid other people remains awaiting things that never will
>> comes.
>>> To end, the way to make a succesful open source project isn't only 1
>>> or 2 guys working and others only
>>> watching and awaiting. Several of us want to help, I'm sure, but no
>>> way, not a path to be part of core developers easily.
>>>
>>> Why not a path? May be because the core developers aren't having time
>>> to think on these things, or because they think
>>> that must spend their little time on users more than on developers
>>> (but here I think that users and developers
>>> are synonyms) or becasue the core developers don't wants others touch
>>> their code?
>>>
>>> Now I must leave Aida/Scribo, now I'm sure that the new releases and
>>> features will come very very slow and will need time,
>>> but know this took my months. Isn't nice.
>>>
>>> Well, as I've said when started, only trying to transmit my feelings
>>> and may be this opinions could help this
>>> community.
>>>
>>> Cheers.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Germán S. Arduino
>>> http://www.arsol.biz
>>> http://www.arsol.net
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Aida mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Aida mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Aida mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
>

--
Janko Mivšek
Svetovalec za informatiko
Eranova d.o.o.
Ljubljana, Slovenija
www.eranova.si
tel:  01 514 22 55
faks: 01 514 22 56
gsm: 031 674 565
_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why Aida/Scribo failed to me

garduino
Hi Janko:


2009/3/16 Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]>:

> Hi Germán,
>
> I think Bruno answered you pretty well and let me add just few thoughts:
>
>   - there are two products here, one is Aida, the other is Scribo. Aida
> 5.6 is stable, 6.0 in beta. Scribo is in beta. And you are arguing about
> your failure with a beta. Remember, our beta is not the same as Google
> beta :)
>
>   - but even that Scribo is beta, it is used in production, from
> running for months http://www.squeak.org, to many other public and
> intranet websites, not to mention that Scribo is actually an open source
> spin-off of commercial BiArt product, running for 5 years already.
>

But on Squeak? or in VW? Are the same versions?


>
>   - because it is beta, you cannot expect much docs in advance. Docs,
> examples and other will come through the time and there are quite some
> examples already available for study, including a complete code for
> squeak.org website.

If you remember when you pointed my to squeak.org code, don't worked,
I can't remember now the reason, but you commented me on IRC that was
a know problem.....


>
> And for conclusion, I even prepared and send you a complete code for
> aidaweb.si site, in VW. From events around your trials to run that code
> I'm more and more inclining to the conclusion, that maybe you are
> lacking some basic Smalltalk skills, like debugging and specially trying
> to find a reason for the problem by yourself.

I know I'm not the best smalltalker of the world, but sometimes, the debugger
don't reveal things if one don't know the whole scenario.

I remember also tried to put the AidaSite (at least on VW even I can´t afford VW
for servers) and failed, I asked you on IRC and (unfortunately don't
have such logs)
but with your help got some steps ahead, but the whole site never started to me.

As you says, may be somethings related to me, but all? I'm not saying
don't works,
because is obvious that they works to you / others. I'm only pointing
that releasing
somethings as these on open source means also open some ideas to other
developers.

But, may by my particular point of view.

Cheers and thanks by the feedback.
_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why Aida/Scribo failed to me

Nicolas Petton
In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek
Le lundi 16 mars 2009 à 18:54 +0100, Janko Mivšek a écrit :
> I'm more and more inclining to the conclusion, that maybe you are
> lacking some basic Smalltalk skills, like debugging and specially
> trying
> to find a reason for the problem by yourself.

Janko, please, don't say things like that. German is working with
smalltalk since a long time, worked with other web frameworks, made a
CMS in Seaside, he's used to Squeak and VW, etc, but you already know
that...

And even if it was true, even if he was "lacking some basic Smalltalk
skills", I think that we can learn from his experience. So instead of
saying things like that I would (and I will) try to understand what went
wrong.

Cheers!

Nico

_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

signature.asc (204 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why Aida/Scribo failed to me

Janko Mivšek
nico pravi:

> Janko Mivšek a écrit :

>> I'm more and more inclining to the conclusion, that maybe you are
>> lacking some basic Smalltalk skills, like debugging and specially
>> trying
>> to find a reason for the problem by yourself.
>
> Janko, please, don't say things like that. German is working with
> smalltalk since a long time, worked with other web frameworks, made a
> CMS in Seaside, he's used to Squeak and VW, etc, but you already know
> that...
>
> And even if it was true, even if he was "lacking some basic Smalltalk
> skills", I think that we can learn from his experience. So instead of
> saying things like that I would (and I will) try to understand what went
> wrong.

I agree on that completely. We need to look at how to simplify an entry
to Aida ans Scribo as much as possible.

But putting a title as strong as 'why Aida/Scribo failed to me' is
calling for a strong answer. And this is my such answer. I can help
someone to some extent, but if he is not willing or able to help himself
further, it is his problem, not mine, nor our community one. That is a
basic point of my answer.

Best regards
Janko
_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why Aida/Scribo failed to me

Nicolas Petton
Le lundi 16 mars 2009 à 20:07 +0100, Janko Mivšek a écrit :

> nico pravi:
>
> > Janko Mivšek a écrit :
>
> >> I'm more and more inclining to the conclusion, that maybe you are
> >> lacking some basic Smalltalk skills, like debugging and specially
> >> trying
> >> to find a reason for the problem by yourself.
> >
> > Janko, please, don't say things like that. German is working with
> > smalltalk since a long time, worked with other web frameworks, made a
> > CMS in Seaside, he's used to Squeak and VW, etc, but you already know
> > that...
> >
> > And even if it was true, even if he was "lacking some basic Smalltalk
> > skills", I think that we can learn from his experience. So instead of
> > saying things like that I would (and I will) try to understand what went
> > wrong.
>
> I agree on that completely. We need to look at how to simplify an entry
> to Aida ans Scribo as much as possible.
>
> But putting a title as strong as 'why Aida/Scribo failed to me' is
> calling for a strong answer. And this is my such answer.
Yes, the title was strong, I agree, but not the email itself while some
parts of your answer sound almost insulting to me.

Nico

>  I can help
> someone to some extent, but if he is not willing or able to help himself
> further, it is his problem, not mine, nor our community one. That is a
> basic point of my answer.
>
> Best regards
> Janko
> _______________________________________________
> Aida mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

signature.asc (204 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why Aida/Scribo failed to me

BrunoBB
In reply to this post by garduino

Janko, German,

To me there is a translation problem here, the email subject in
english
sound too hard, may be German did not want to put it in that way.
German and me talk in spanish and sometimes it is diffucult to
translate exactly what we are thinking in spanish.

>About your ViewTabs question from email few days ago (sorry for not
>answering you), so did you find a solution by yourself? Can you
explain
>it a bit by answering your own mail? I namely start thinking about
your
>case, but then lack of time stopped me.

Well, put about 2 or 3 "self halt" and click to refresh the page to
see what is Aida doing to render the pages. After see that i changed
the code to suite my needs.

Regards,
Bruno
 

_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why Aida/Scribo failed to me

Janko Mivšek
In reply to this post by Nicolas Petton
nico pravi:

> Janko Mivšek a écrit :
>> nico pravi:
>>
>>> Janko Mivšek a écrit :
>>>> I'm more and more inclining to the conclusion, that maybe you are
>>>> lacking some basic Smalltalk skills, like debugging and specially
>>>> trying
>>>> to find a reason for the problem by yourself.
>>> Janko, please, don't say things like that. German is working with
>>> smalltalk since a long time, worked with other web frameworks, made a
>>> CMS in Seaside, he's used to Squeak and VW, etc, but you already know
>>> that...
>>>
>>> And even if it was true, even if he was "lacking some basic Smalltalk
>>> skills", I think that we can learn from his experience. So instead of
>>> saying things like that I would (and I will) try to understand what went
>>> wrong.
>> I agree on that completely. We need to look at how to simplify an entry
>> to Aida ans Scribo as much as possible.
>>
>> But putting a title as strong as 'why Aida/Scribo failed to me' is
>> calling for a strong answer. And this is my such answer.

> Yes, the title was strong, I agree, but not the email itself while some
> parts of your answer sound almost insulting to me.

Who starts with strong words, should not expect mild answers and even
less treat them immediately as insulting.

But yes, that my 'lacking basic skills' was also too strong.

Janko



>>  I can help
>> someone to some extent, but if he is not willing or able to help himself
>> further, it is his problem, not mine, nor our community one. That is a
>> basic point of my answer.
>>
>> Best regards
>> Janko
_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why Aida/Scribo failed to me

Janko Mivšek
In reply to this post by BrunoBB
Hi Bruno,

[hidden email] pravi:
> Janko, German,
>
> To me there is a translation problem here, the email subject in
> english
> sound too hard, may be German did not want to put it in that way.
> German and me talk in spanish and sometimes it is diffucult to
> translate exactly what we are thinking in spanish.

This can be the reason, yes. Ok, let we calm down this part of debate
and rather concentrate to the content.

Thanks
Janko


>
>> About your ViewTabs question from email few days ago (sorry for not
>> answering you), so did you find a solution by yourself? Can you
> explain
>> it a bit by answering your own mail? I namely start thinking about
> your
>> case, but then lack of time stopped me.
>
> Well, put about 2 or 3 "self halt" and click to refresh the page to
> see what is Aida doing to render the pages. After see that i changed
> the code to suite my needs.
>
> Regards,
> Bruno
>
_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why Aida/Scribo failed to me

Stefan Schmiedl
In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek
On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 21:02:18 +0100
Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Who starts with strong words, should not expect mild answers and even
> less treat them immediately as insulting.

Gentle men,

please keep in mind that you are communicating via a language
none of you is native to.

I remember my English teacher telling me (long ago) about
a roundtrip machine translation of some text through several languages.

Well ... according to the story, they started with

        "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" (Matthew 26:41)

and ended up with

        "The ghost is prepared but the steak is rotten"


There _is_ a difference between
        - what you intend to say
        - what you actually write
        - what the recipient understands

s.
_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why Aida/Scribo failed to me

garduino
In reply to this post by Nicolas Petton
Thanks by your support Nico.

Thas was the spirit of my mail, comment abot my own experience.


2009/3/16 nico <[hidden email]>:

> Le lundi 16 mars 2009 à 18:54 +0100, Janko Mivšek a écrit :
>> I'm more and more inclining to the conclusion, that maybe you are
>> lacking some basic Smalltalk skills, like debugging and specially
>> trying
>> to find a reason for the problem by yourself.
>
> Janko, please, don't say things like that. German is working with
> smalltalk since a long time, worked with other web frameworks, made a
> CMS in Seaside, he's used to Squeak and VW, etc, but you already know
> that...
>
> And even if it was true, even if he was "lacking some basic Smalltalk
> skills", I think that we can learn from his experience. So instead of
> saying things like that I would (and I will) try to understand what went
> wrong.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Nico
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aida mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
>
>



--
Germán S. Arduino
http://www.arsol.biz
http://www.arsol.net
_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why Aida/Scribo failed to me

garduino
In reply to this post by BrunoBB
2009/3/16 [hidden email] <[hidden email]>:
>
> Janko, German,
>
> To me there is a translation problem here, the email subject in
> english
> sound too hard, may be German did not want to put it in that way.
> German and me talk in spanish and sometimes it is diffucult to
> translate exactly what we are thinking in spanish.
>

Yes, may be, Don't know yet what resulted so hard, but the meaning
I thinked is "Why Aida/Scribo don't worked to me", or "don't were that I
was searching".....or so......I think I'm not saying nothing bad. And
I specified
"to me".
_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why Aida/Scribo failed to me

garduino
In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek
Hi Janko:

2009/3/16 Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]>:

> nico pravi:
>> Janko Mivšek a écrit :
>>> nico pravi:
>>>
>>>> Janko Mivšek a écrit :
>>>>> I'm more and more inclining to the conclusion, that maybe you are
>>>>> lacking some basic Smalltalk skills, like debugging and specially
>>>>> trying
>>>>> to find a reason for the problem by yourself.
>>>> Janko, please, don't say things like that. German is working with
>>>> smalltalk since a long time, worked with other web frameworks, made a
>>>> CMS in Seaside, he's used to Squeak and VW, etc, but you already know
>>>> that...
>>>>
>>>> And even if it was true, even if he was "lacking some basic Smalltalk
>>>> skills", I think that we can learn from his experience. So instead of
>>>> saying things like that I would (and I will) try to understand what went
>>>> wrong.
>>> I agree on that completely. We need to look at how to simplify an entry
>>> to Aida ans Scribo as much as possible.
>>>
>>> But putting a title as strong as 'why Aida/Scribo failed to me' is
>>> calling for a strong answer. And this is my such answer.
>
>> Yes, the title was strong, I agree, but not the email itself while some
>> parts of your answer sound almost insulting to me.
>
> Who starts with strong words, should not expect mild answers and even
> less treat them immediately as insulting.

Well, I not tried to insult, only to be constructive to this rising community.

I think that I can feel/think at my own, right?

>
> But yes, that my 'lacking basic skills' was also too strong.
>


hahah.....Don't worry, I know I'm not the best nor the worst. At  my
45 years I don't compete
by the smallltalk world championship title nor have false pride. I'm
more interested in get
the work done and in the responses to my questions :)



> Janko
>
>
>






--
Germán S. Arduino
http://www.arsol.biz
http://www.arsol.net
_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why Aida/Scribo failed to me

garduino
In reply to this post by Stefan Schmiedl
Yes, the different languages and even the written way aren't so good
to transmit ideas,
but is that we have.


2009/3/16 Stefan Schmiedl <[hidden email]>:

> On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 21:02:18 +0100
> Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Who starts with strong words, should not expect mild answers and even
>> less treat them immediately as insulting.
>
> Gentle men,
>
> please keep in mind that you are communicating via a language
> none of you is native to.
>
> I remember my English teacher telling me (long ago) about
> a roundtrip machine translation of some text through several languages.
>
> Well ... according to the story, they started with
>
>        "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" (Matthew 26:41)
>
> and ended up with
>
>        "The ghost is prepared but the steak is rotten"
>
>
> There _is_ a difference between
>        - what you intend to say
>        - what you actually write
>        - what the recipient understands
>
> s.
> _______________________________________________
> Aida mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
>
_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why Aida/Scribo failed to me

sebastien audier

hi all,

 thx for your presence on the community each day, and each nights... ^^

German, i congratulate you, for this debate, but i reflect aida is one thing, and seaside an other...
And even if you will go to use seaside for a <span class="clickable" onclick="dr4sdgryt(event,&quot;Ox&quot;)">noun, you can always come back for all the debates...

Personally, i've used seaside in the past, and Pier for your interest, and, there is a lot of interest's things... You can do a

_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Why Aida/Scribo failed to me

sebastien audier



You can do a lot of... pardon for cut...

but, i had stop on difficults with seaside fonctional, and, with scribo, i am in my editions works quickly...

So, i know, we must progress on the accesibility and ergonomics functionnality, but, i'am sure we will make a success if we united always...

good night :)


_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Scribo question

Francisco A. Lizarralde-2
In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek
Hi All,

I'm doing my first steps with Aida/Scribo. I have the demo site running
on localhost, and I'm translating to Spanish the Aida documentation on
Scribos's wiki as an excercise. Probably, this translation helps anyone,
like the Luigi's translation of the tutorial helped to me.

I persist the wiki content saving the image, but, Can I migrate the
wiki's content to another image ?

It's is necesary to start another wiki, or not ?

I'm sorry if this questions sounds too naive.

Best regards,

Francisco

P.D. I send a screenshot of the administration's guide translation.

_______________________________________________
Aida mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida

screenshot.jpg (119K) Download Attachment
12