Why Aida/Scribo failed to me

>
>And I must admit, I failed.
>
>Why failed? I will try not to go at the position were the
>responsability is only of others,
>surely a big part is of mine, but I think that some points on this
>incipient community are
>not going by the way of get a successful open source project.
>
>The developers of a project that wants to release it as real open
>source, that means providing
>a way to others programmers understand the design and big picture to
>start helping on the project
>as fast as possible, need to take care not only of program and code
>and design. They NEED to take
>care of provide the path to other pogrammers get inserted in the
>internals of the project.
>
>And on Aida/Scribo I noted that despite of the calls on the lists to
>use/try it, currently only
>two persons are in position of make changes, solve bugs, etc.
>
>I note a discrepancy between the calls to use the products and what
>the products are really doing
>on these days, I means, the products are not ready to be used on
>production if the user/developer
>isn't an Aida/Scribo core developer.
>
>That was my experience, I tried, spent lot and lot of time, only to
>make 1 step ahead and 2 backward.
>
>When I got enthusiasted by the mails calling to use Aida and friends

>now seems to be again (as "sites"
>feature), but soon I get stucked in the middle of different versions,
>not clear who works with who, not
>clear what are the timeframes to have some coherent versions working,
>with errors on the versions I'm using
>(I know are Beta but still) and without the capability of arrange
>nothing. Why not? Because doesn't exist
>a way to introduce new developers on your products.
>
>The proof is that only 2 guys are the core developers, and by no

>help other programmers start working.
>
>By example, on Scribo, a sort of explanation about the model and how
>the whole thing was thinked and how
>to extend or modify its behaviour, not how to use it as user.
>
>Other useful things to an open source community are:
>
>* A clear identifications of versions that works together and its
>features and repos.
>
>* A plan to the new releases with features that will come and

>
>To end, the way to make a succesful open source project isn't only 1
>or 2 guys working and others only
>watching and awaiting. Several of us want to help, I'm sure, but no
>way, not a path to be part of core developers easily.
>
>Why not a path? May be because the core developers aren't having time
>to think on these things, or because they think
>that must spend their little time on users more than on developers
>(but here I think that users and developers
>are synonyms) or becasue the core developers don't wants others touch
>their code?
>
>Now I must leave Aida/Scribo, now I'm sure that the new releases and
>features will come very very slow and will need time,
>but know this took my months. Isn't nice.
>
>Well, as I've said when started, only trying to transmit my feelings
>and may be this opinions could help this
>community.
>
>Cheers.
>
>--
>Germán S. Arduino
>http://www.arsol.biz
>http://www.arsol.net
>_______________________________________________
>Aida mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
>

> German,
>
> I do not know what happen with your project and i never used Scribo,
> but i?m using AIDA for some projects.
> I'm using AIDA 5 for Dolphin (eventually i will port the last version
> to Dolphin NG), but i was capable to do what i want it.
>
> Why do you tell us your problems and may be some one can help you ?
> Since I use Dolphin and the AIDA version is pretty stable i can not
> argue in Squeak world.
>
> I think if have enough time you can change the AIDA code by your own
> and then send the change to this list.
>
> I?m not an AIDA expert but in a couple of hours i was able to change
> the naming convention of AIDA (viewXXXX methods for tabs) and use one
> of my own.
> I mean some of my classes use Aida in the normal way, in another class
> the naming convention to draw a web page have been changed, in only a
> couple of hours.
> So to ME the flexibility has no price...
>
>>on these days, I means, the products are not ready to be used on
>>production if the user/developer
>>isn't an Aida/Scribo core developer.
>
> Well, i?m not a Aida core developer but i change a lot of internal
> staff of AIDA, so i disagree with you here.
> May be it take time but is not difficult to change Aida.
>
> To a production environment is a RULE to use the last stable version
> although may be not all features are present.
>
>>nothing. Why not? Because doesn't exist
>>a way to introduce new developers on your products.
>
> I have to desagree here too. I want to use it you can do it, you have
> ALL the source code.
> This is the way i did.
>
> Regards,
> Bruno
>
>
>>----Mensaje original----
>>De: [hidden email]
>>Fecha: 16/03/2009 11:56
>>Para: "AIDA/Web general discussion list"<[hidden email]>
>>Asunto: [aida] Why Aida/Scribo failed to me
>>
>>First of all let me say that the following opinions aren't
>>destructives, only are my feelings and opinions
>>after several months trying to use Aida/Scribo on production
> customers.
>>
>>And I must admit, I failed.
>>
>>Why failed? I will try not to go at the position were the
>>responsability is only of others,
>>surely a big part is of mine, but I think that some points on this
>>incipient community are
>>not going by the way of get a successful open source project.
>>
>>The developers of a project that wants to release it as real open
>>source, that means providing
>>a way to others programmers understand the design and big picture to
>>start helping on the project
>>as fast as possible, need to take care not only of program and code
>>and design. They NEED to take
>>care of provide the path to other pogrammers get inserted in the
>>internals of the project.
>>
>>And on Aida/Scribo I noted that despite of the calls on the lists to
>>use/try it, currently only
>>two persons are in position of make changes, solve bugs, etc.
>>
>>I note a discrepancy between the calls to use the products and what
>>the products are really doing
>>on these days, I means, the products are not ready to be used on
>>production if the user/developer
>>isn't an Aida/Scribo core developer.
>>
>>That was my experience, I tried, spent lot and lot of time, only to
>>make 1 step ahead and 2 backward.
>>
>>When I got enthusiasted by the mails calling to use Aida and friends
> I
>>tried to use, learn, examine code,
>>adapt my needs to the features that were, after so weren't anymore
> and
>>now seems to be again (as "sites"
>>feature), but soon I get stucked in the middle of different versions,
>>not clear who works with who, not
>>clear what are the timeframes to have some coherent versions working,
>>with errors on the versions I'm using
>>(I know are Beta but still) and without the capability of arrange
>>nothing. Why not? Because doesn't exist
>>a way to introduce new developers on your products.
>>
>>The proof is that only 2 guys are the core developers, and by no
> means
>>an open source project can grow
>>at this way.
>>
>>I understand that the core developers need to eat/pay the bills/etc
> as
>>all of us, then more important
>>(if they really wants ot make the projects OPEN) is try to spend a
> bit
>>of their little time on explaining
>>internal things (with documentation or screencast or any other way)
> to
>>help other programmers start working.
>>
>>By example, on Scribo, a sort of explanation about the model and how
>>the whole thing was thinked and how
>>to extend or modify its behaviour, not how to use it as user.
>>
>>Other useful things to an open source community are:
>>
>>* A clear identifications of versions that works together and its
>>features and repos.
>>
>>* A plan to the new releases with features that will come and
> possible dates.
>>
>>And if the dates will be far, the best things that may be done is say
>>the true, the real estimated dates or,
>>simply, some sort of "When I can, because my priority isn't the open
> stuff".
>>
>>That will avoid other people remains awaiting things that never will
> comes.
>>
>>To end, the way to make a succesful open source project isn't only 1
>>or 2 guys working and others only
>>watching and awaiting. Several of us want to help, I'm sure, but no
>>way, not a path to be part of core developers easily.
>>
>>Why not a path? May be because the core developers aren't having time
>>to think on these things, or because they think
>>that must spend their little time on users more than on developers
>>(but here I think that users and developers
>>are synonyms) or becasue the core developers don't wants others touch
>>their code?
>>
>>Now I must leave Aida/Scribo, now I'm sure that the new releases and
>>features will come very very slow and will need time,
>>but know this took my months. Isn't nice.
>>
>>Well, as I've said when started, only trying to transmit my feelings
>>and may be this opinions could help this
>>community.
>>
>>Cheers.
>>
>>--
>>Germán S. Arduino
>>http://www.arsol.biz
>>http://www.arsol.net
>>_______________________________________________
>>Aida mailing list
>>[hidden email]
>>http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aida mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
>

> Hi Bruno:
>
> I respect a lot your opinions and, as I've said before, the mail only
> express my own
> opinions.
>
> May be we have a different approach of somethings, and in some point I commented
> about my own fault trying to use on production products not yet stable
> (Because I got
> enthusiasted with the new features I was needing).
>
> Anyway I think that exist better methods that read all the source
> code. All the Linux kernel is available, but is possible to understand
> it without some explanations? I feelt the same with Aida/Scribo. May
> be my own human limitations, but lot of examples exist about this.
> When you must take care of code written by other people on any job,
> don't need the original authors explanining somethings?.
>
> Nothing wrong with Aida/Scribo if you have the time to await the new
> releases or the time (big time to me) to understand by your own all
> the source code. I'm only pointing things that might be improved.
>
> Regards.
>
>
>
> 2009/3/16 [hidden email] <[hidden email]>:
>> German,
>>
>> I do not know what happen with your project and i never used Scribo,
>> but i?m using AIDA for some projects.
>> I'm using AIDA 5 for Dolphin (eventually i will port the last version
>> to Dolphin NG), but i was capable to do what i want it.
>>
>> Why do you tell us your problems and may be some one can help you ?
>> Since I use Dolphin and the AIDA version is pretty stable i can not
>> argue in Squeak world.
>>
>> I think if have enough time you can change the AIDA code by your own
>> and then send the change to this list.
>>
>> I?m not an AIDA expert but in a couple of hours i was able to change
>> the naming convention of AIDA (viewXXXX methods for tabs) and use one
>> of my own.
>> I mean some of my classes use Aida in the normal way, in another class
>> the naming convention to draw a web page have been changed, in only a
>> couple of hours.
>> So to ME the flexibility has no price...
>>
>>> on these days, I means, the products are not ready to be used on
>>> production if the user/developer
>>> isn't an Aida/Scribo core developer.
>> Well, i?m not a Aida core developer but i change a lot of internal
>> staff of AIDA, so i disagree with you here.
>> May be it take time but is not difficult to change Aida.
>>
>> To a production environment is a RULE to use the last stable version
>> although may be not all features are present.
>>
>>> nothing. Why not? Because doesn't exist
>>> a way to introduce new developers on your products.
>> I have to desagree here too. I want to use it you can do it, you have
>> ALL the source code.
>> This is the way i did.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>> ----Mensaje original----
>>> De: [hidden email]
>>> Fecha: 16/03/2009 11:56
>>> Para: "AIDA/Web general discussion list"<[hidden email]>
>>> Asunto: [aida] Why Aida/Scribo failed to me
>>>
>>> First of all let me say that the following opinions aren't
>>> destructives, only are my feelings and opinions
>>> after several months trying to use Aida/Scribo on production
>> customers.
>>> And I must admit, I failed.
>>>
>>> Why failed? I will try not to go at the position were the
>>> responsability is only of others,
>>> surely a big part is of mine, but I think that some points on this
>>> incipient community are
>>> not going by the way of get a successful open source project.
>>>
>>> The developers of a project that wants to release it as real open
>>> source, that means providing
>>> a way to others programmers understand the design and big picture to
>>> start helping on the project
>>> as fast as possible, need to take care not only of program and code
>>> and design. They NEED to take
>>> care of provide the path to other pogrammers get inserted in the
>>> internals of the project.
>>>
>>> And on Aida/Scribo I noted that despite of the calls on the lists to
>>> use/try it, currently only
>>> two persons are in position of make changes, solve bugs, etc.
>>>
>>> I note a discrepancy between the calls to use the products and what
>>> the products are really doing
>>> on these days, I means, the products are not ready to be used on
>>> production if the user/developer
>>> isn't an Aida/Scribo core developer.
>>>
>>> That was my experience, I tried, spent lot and lot of time, only to
>>> make 1 step ahead and 2 backward.
>>>
>>> When I got enthusiasted by the mails calling to use Aida and friends
>> I
>>> tried to use, learn, examine code,
>>> adapt my needs to the features that were, after so weren't anymore
>> and
>>> now seems to be again (as "sites"
>>> feature), but soon I get stucked in the middle of different versions,
>>> not clear who works with who, not
>>> clear what are the timeframes to have some coherent versions working,
>>> with errors on the versions I'm using
>>> (I know are Beta but still) and without the capability of arrange
>>> nothing. Why not? Because doesn't exist
>>> a way to introduce new developers on your products.
>>>
>>> The proof is that only 2 guys are the core developers, and by no
>> means
>>> an open source project can grow
>>> at this way.
>>>
>>> I understand that the core developers need to eat/pay the bills/etc
>> as
>>> all of us, then more important
>>> (if they really wants ot make the projects OPEN) is try to spend a
>> bit
>>> of their little time on explaining
>>> internal things (with documentation or screencast or any other way)
>> to
>>> help other programmers start working.
>>>
>>> By example, on Scribo, a sort of explanation about the model and how
>>> the whole thing was thinked and how
>>> to extend or modify its behaviour, not how to use it as user.
>>>
>>> Other useful things to an open source community are:
>>>
>>> * A clear identifications of versions that works together and its
>>> features and repos.
>>>
>>> * A plan to the new releases with features that will come and
>> possible dates.
>>> And if the dates will be far, the best things that may be done is say
>>> the true, the real estimated dates or,
>>> simply, some sort of "When I can, because my priority isn't the open
>> stuff".
>>> That will avoid other people remains awaiting things that never will
>> comes.
>>> To end, the way to make a succesful open source project isn't only 1
>>> or 2 guys working and others only
>>> watching and awaiting. Several of us want to help, I'm sure, but no
>>> way, not a path to be part of core developers easily.
>>>
>>> Why not a path? May be because the core developers aren't having time
>>> to think on these things, or because they think
>>> that must spend their little time on users more than on developers
>>> (but here I think that users and developers
>>> are synonyms) or becasue the core developers don't wants others touch
>>> their code?
>>>
>>> Now I must leave Aida/Scribo, now I'm sure that the new releases and
>>> features will come very very slow and will need time,
>>> but know this took my months. Isn't nice.
>>>
>>> Well, as I've said when started, only trying to transmit my feelings
>>> and may be this opinions could help this
>>> community.
>>>
>>> Cheers.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Germán S. Arduino
>>> http://www.arsol.biz
>>> http://www.arsol.net
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Aida mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Aida mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Aida mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
>

> Hi Germán,
>
> I think Bruno answered you pretty well and let me add just few thoughts:
>
>   - there are two products here, one is Aida, the other is Scribo. Aida
> 5.6 is stable, 6.0 in beta. Scribo is in beta. And you are arguing about
> your failure with a beta. Remember, our beta is not the same as Google
> beta :)
>
>   - but even that Scribo is beta, it is used in production, from
> running for months http://www.squeak.org, to many other public and
> intranet websites, not to mention that Scribo is actually an open source
> spin-off of commercial BiArt product, running for 5 years already.
>

>> I'm more and more inclining to the conclusion, that maybe you are
>> lacking some basic Smalltalk skills, like debugging and specially
>> trying
>> to find a reason for the problem by yourself.
>
> Janko, please, don't say things like that. German is working with
> smalltalk since a long time, worked with other web frameworks, made a
> CMS in Seaside, he's used to Squeak and VW, etc, but you already know
> that...
>
> And even if it was true, even if he was "lacking some basic Smalltalk
> skills", I think that we can learn from his experience. So instead of
> saying things like that I would (and I will) try to understand what went
> wrong.

> Janko Mivšek a écrit :
>> nico pravi:
>>
>>> Janko Mivšek a écrit :
>>>> I'm more and more inclining to the conclusion, that maybe you are
>>>> lacking some basic Smalltalk skills, like debugging and specially
>>>> trying
>>>> to find a reason for the problem by yourself.
>>> Janko, please, don't say things like that. German is working with
>>> smalltalk since a long time, worked with other web frameworks, made a
>>> CMS in Seaside, he's used to Squeak and VW, etc, but you already know
>>> that...
>>>
>>> And even if it was true, even if he was "lacking some basic Smalltalk
>>> skills", I think that we can learn from his experience. So instead of
>>> saying things like that I would (and I will) try to understand what went
>>> wrong.
>> I agree on that completely. We need to look at how to simplify an entry
>> to Aida ans Scribo as much as possible.
>>
>> But putting a title as strong as 'why Aida/Scribo failed to me' is
>> calling for a strong answer. And this is my such answer.

>
>> About your ViewTabs question from email few days ago (sorry for not
>> answering you), so did you find a solution by yourself? Can you
> explain
>> it a bit by answering your own mail? I namely start thinking about
> your
>> case, but then lack of time stopped me.
>
> Well, put about 2 or 3 "self halt" and click to refresh the page to
> see what is Aida doing to render the pages. After see that i changed
> the code to suite my needs.
>
> Regards,
> Bruno
>

> Le lundi 16 mars 2009 à 18:54 +0100, Janko Mivšek a écrit :
>> I'm more and more inclining to the conclusion, that maybe you are
>> lacking some basic Smalltalk skills, like debugging and specially
>> trying
>> to find a reason for the problem by yourself.
>
> Janko, please, don't say things like that. German is working with
> smalltalk since a long time, worked with other web frameworks, made a
> CMS in Seaside, he's used to Squeak and VW, etc, but you already know
> that...
>
> And even if it was true, even if he was "lacking some basic Smalltalk
> skills", I think that we can learn from his experience. So instead of
> saying things like that I would (and I will) try to understand what went
> wrong.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Nico
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aida mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
>
>

> nico pravi:
>> Janko Mivšek a écrit :
>>> nico pravi:
>>>
>>>> Janko Mivšek a écrit :
>>>>> I'm more and more inclining to the conclusion, that maybe you are
>>>>> lacking some basic Smalltalk skills, like debugging and specially
>>>>> trying
>>>>> to find a reason for the problem by yourself.
>>>> Janko, please, don't say things like that. German is working with
>>>> smalltalk since a long time, worked with other web frameworks, made a
>>>> CMS in Seaside, he's used to Squeak and VW, etc, but you already know
>>>> that...
>>>>
>>>> And even if it was true, even if he was "lacking some basic Smalltalk
>>>> skills", I think that we can learn from his experience. So instead of
>>>> saying things like that I would (and I will) try to understand what went
>>>> wrong.
>>> I agree on that completely. We need to look at how to simplify an entry
>>> to Aida ans Scribo as much as possible.
>>>
>>> But putting a title as strong as 'why Aida/Scribo failed to me' is
>>> calling for a strong answer. And this is my such answer.
>
>> Yes, the title was strong, I agree, but not the email itself while some
>> parts of your answer sound almost insulting to me.
>
> Who starts with strong words, should not expect mild answers and even
> less treat them immediately as insulting.

> On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 21:02:18 +0100
> Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Who starts with strong words, should not expect mild answers and even
>> less treat them immediately as insulting.
>
> Gentle men,
>
> please keep in mind that you are communicating via a language
> none of you is native to.
>
> I remember my English teacher telling me (long ago) about
> a roundtrip machine translation of some text through several languages.
>
> Well ... according to the story, they started with
>
>        "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" (Matthew 26:41)
>
> and ended up with
>
>        "The ghost is prepared but the steak is rotten"
>
>
> There _is_ a difference between
>        - what you intend to say
>        - what you actually write
>        - what the recipient understands
>
> s.
> _______________________________________________
> Aida mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.aidaweb.si/mailman/listinfo/aida
>