Windows installation broken?
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Re: Windows installation broken?
 
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> Am 18.06.2018 um 16:16 schrieb horrido <[hidden email]>: > > Lack of enough Windows users? What platform are most Pharoers using? > > I'm using macOS, but this platform has only about 12% market share. Linux > has about 2%. > Your mixing users and developers. I don’t have numbers but I’m pretty sure if you count developers windows does not have that big of a market share. For squeak/pharo especially I guess Mac was always the preferred platform. Norbert > > Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >>> On 18 Jun 2018, at 15:39, Herbert Vojčík < > >> herby@ > >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> horrido wrote on 18. 6. 2018 0:04: >>>> This is what concerns me. I don't care that there are workarounds >>>> (undocumented or hard to find). >>>> I care that Windows is a most popular development platform. I care that >>>> newcomers to Pharo easily find what they need to get started. I care >>>> about >>>> Pharo's reputation. >>>> The last thing Pharo needs is a black eye. >>> >>> Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong >>> decision to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert to >>> working installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm. >> >> The problem is the lack of enough Windows users and especially developers >> who can fix Windows problems. > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > |
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Developers are users, and many users are developers.
What kind of developers are you counting? Microsoft/Windows/.NET developers represent a huge number, especially in the enterprise market. If these developers are going to explore alternative tools like Java, Ruby, Pharo, Common Lisp, etc., they'll be doing it in Windows. Developers under macOS are mostly focussed on macOS, iOS, Objective-C, and Swift. They are no more predisposed to looking at Pharo than developers under Windows. Is this not perfectly logical? NorbertHartl wrote >> Am 18.06.2018 um 16:16 schrieb horrido < > horrido.hobbies@ > >: >> >> Lack of enough Windows users? What platform are most Pharoers using? >> >> I'm using macOS, but this platform has only about 12% market share. Linux >> has about 2%. >> > Your mixing users and developers. I don’t have numbers but I’m pretty sure > if you count developers windows does not have that big of a market share. > For squeak/pharo especially I guess Mac was always the preferred platform. > > Norbert >> >> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >>>> On 18 Jun 2018, at 15:39, Herbert Vojčík < >> >>> herby@ >> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> horrido wrote on 18. 6. 2018 0:04: >>>>> This is what concerns me. I don't care that there are workarounds >>>>> (undocumented or hard to find). >>>>> I care that Windows is a most popular development platform. I care >>>>> that >>>>> newcomers to Pharo easily find what they need to get started. I care >>>>> about >>>>> Pharo's reputation. >>>>> The last thing Pharo needs is a black eye. >>>> >>>> Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong >>>> decision to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert >>>> to >>>> working installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm. >>> >>> The problem is the lack of enough Windows users and especially >>> developers >>> who can fix Windows problems. >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html |
Re: Windows installation broken?
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In reply to this post by Herby Vojčík
Hi Herbert,
I too invite you to reconsider your language. Please stick to arguments. This is a public forum and its communication hygiene depends on everyone’s behavior. Now, tackling your point: in this specific case, even your argument is incorrect. Nobody is forcing you to do anything. Pharo 7 is a development version and this is expected to have glitches from time to time. While this is inconvenient, pushing new things is the only way to obtain the necessary feedback. If you prefer stability, you are welcome to work with 6.1. Cheers, Tudor > On Jun 18, 2018, at 4:47 PM, Herbert Vojčík <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > > Esteban Lorenzano wrote on 18. 6. 2018 16:04: >>> On 18 Jun 2018, at 15:39, Herbert Vojčík <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> horrido wrote on 18. 6. 2018 0:04: >>>> This is what concerns me. I don't care that there are workarounds >>>> (undocumented or hard to find). >>>> I care that Windows is a most popular development platform. I care that >>>> newcomers to Pharo easily find what they need to get started. I care about >>>> Pharo's reputation. >>>> The last thing Pharo needs is a black eye. >>> >>> Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong decision to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert to working installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm. >> First, it was MY decision. > > My apologies to blaming Steph. > >> I’m pushing launcher as the default download for Pharo since year now. >> Do I am happy with it not working on windows right now? Of course not. But pushing it also in windows has already forced us to fix some bugs there and a new version of the launcher (and a better Pharo on windows) and at the result will be good. >> I was going to suspend the launcher as the default download until a better version arrived, but I’ve been told that will happen this week, so I will wait. >> Second, we have a lot of bottlenecks, but is true this is important. >> Third, please restrain your self to talk like that in the future. Is rude and unnecessary. > > I won't. Sometimes it seems this kind of talk is needed. Windows launcher was not working for so long but it is still pushed as the default download option, because "higher goals" I presume. If this kind of talk helps to get rid of it until working (or make it finally actually work), it is anything but unnecessary. > > Herby > >> Esteban >>> >>> Herby >>> >>>> Travis Ayres wrote >>>>> I wonder how many people tried Pharo, thought "Oh this is totally broken" >>>>> and are never going to give it a second (or third) chance. >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 11:26 AM, >>>>> phil@ >>>>> < >>>>> phil@ >>>>> > >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The current website shows the wrong link, the installer for the bleeding >>>>>> edge is the wrong one in files. >>>>>> The situation on the Windows front is very very bad and not really >>>>>> improving. >>>>>> >>>>>> That being said, the installer on the CI is the right one and works. >>>>>> >>>>>> so, steal the installer from here: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci- >>>>>> jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher >>>>>> >>>>>> This is the one you want: >>>>>> >>>>>> https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher/ >>>>>> >>>>>> For having the latest lastet everything, go to the launcher settings, get >>>>>> into the devmode and open monticello and load the latest packages. >>>>>> >>>>>> Phil >>>> -- >>>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Beauty is where we see it." |
Re: Windows installation broken?
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In reply to this post by horrido
Ah, I’m not sure what value this sentence adds. The point is that the market share you were referring to is users that are not developers. Ok, let’s try to other way round. If there are many developers in windows why is the pharo stuff for windows so badly supported? It does indeed mean that either there aren’t many or they lack the expertise (or are too lazy) to improve stuff in pharo. And don’t tell me you count the windows developers that are driven away from a user program like PharoLauncher that is not working properly. Norbert
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Re: Windows installation broken?
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I am developing on Windows and using the launcher. Also on Linux and macOS. In a corp environment, Windows rules. So make it work there if you want any traction. The laucher now works nicely on Windows. But the files are not the right ones on the download page. So fixing that will go a long way. I have been back on using more mainstream tech and well, stuff works as advertised. We are lagging behind on a couple fronts that's what I see. Phil On Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 20:04 Norbert Hartl <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by NorbertHartl
"And don’t tell me you count the windows developers that are driven away from a user program like PharoLauncher that is not working properly." Why not? On Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 11:05 AM Norbert Hartl <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: Windows installation broken?
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In reply to this post by Herby Vojčík
On 18/06/18 09:47, Herbert Vojčík
wrote:
Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong decision to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert to working installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm. I don't see how this "Macho Programmer Culture" mixing genitalia size with community behavior and admin choices is necessary. But I see why, for sure, non-(white)-males feel so unwelcome in developers communities when some members feels such "necessity" of addressing others with such language and when pointed to that, just reinforce their choices. Best, Offray |
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What does not talking like an asshole have to do with being white and male? ...seriously? On Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 11:31 AM Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: Windows installation broken?
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Guys - let’s STOP this and focus on getting the download page changed. A knife fight within our midst is not going to help us make things better.
I’m sure Steph would prefer actions to fix code over in-fighting. The best way to make amends would be a nice code fix for the community. Tim
Sent from my iPhone
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In reply to this post by philippeback
yes, we have bad support for windows. Period.
we try to improve in that, but is hard and takes time… there are lots of small details that needs to be taken care in all fronts (from VM to UI, traversing all layers)… but we will get there, one step at a time. And with the help of those in the community with more proximity to the real problem. Esteban
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Re: Windows installation broken?
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In reply to this post by trayres
Nothing, that's precisely my point! So we don't need to talk
about balls size, with the implicit gender assumptions about
courage and the "Macho Programmer" way of argumentation, that is
toxic in *other* communities for minorities (non white, non
cisgender, non male) which usually repeals them for participation. So, yes, lets focus on a better installing Pharo experience on Windows. Cheers, Offray On 18/06/18 13:39, Travis Ayres wrote:
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