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stepharo

feedback from yet another student presentation

Hi
today with anne we presented Moose and Pharo to students and teachers
at Paris here are the conclusion:

- it was reallllly hard to register a project on smalltalkhub just after
we created an account.
This already happened to me during the open-devs.
So this is a really big show stopper for the mooc. Because people will
gave up just after the first lecture :(

- we should really rename Class>>name: into setClassName:
students were manipulating object with name such as state of state
machine and one wrote

State name: 'A' and just rename the class and broke the system.

Stef

abergel

Re: feedback from yet another student presentation

> - it was reallllly hard to register a project on smalltalkhub just after we created an account.
> This already happened to me during the open-devs.
> So this is a really big show stopper for the mooc. Because people will gave up just after the first lecture :(

The situation will be much easier I hope once git is well supported…

> - we should really rename Class>>name: into setClassName:
> students were manipulating object with name such as state of state machine and one wrote
>
> State name: 'A' and just rename the class and broke the system.

I have just created an issue:
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17798/Rename-Class-name-into-setClassName

Alexandre
--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

monty-3

Re: feedback from yet another student presentation

> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 4:14 PM
> From: "Alexandre Bergel" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Pharo Development List" <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] feedback from yet another student presentation
>
> > - it was reallllly hard to register a project on smalltalkhub just after we created an account.
> > This already happened to me during the open-devs.
> > So this is a really big show stopper for the mooc. Because people will gave up just after the first lecture :(
>
> The situation will be much easier I hope once git is well supported…
>
> > - we should really rename Class>>name: into setClassName:
> > students were manipulating object with name such as state of state machine and one wrote
> >
> > State name: 'A' and just rename the class and broke the system.
>
> I have just created an issue:
> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17798/Rename-Class-name-into-setClassName

Marked as a duplicate of: https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/7241/Object-name-should-best-be-removed

This has been an issue for years.

Leave it as-is and anyone defining a class-side name: constructor risks breaking any tooling that still relies on name: renaming a class. Use named: (much more common in the image) instead and nothing will break, but now anyone that mistypes the selector as name: (no "d") accidentally renames the class, and to a string instead of a symbol.

> Alexandre
> --
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>
>
>
>
>

monty-3

Re: feedback from yet another student presentation

Not a duplicate, at least not of 17798.

> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 4:35 PM
> From: monty <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] feedback from yet another student presentation
>
> > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 4:14 PM
> > From: "Alexandre Bergel" <[hidden email]>
> > To: "Pharo Development List" <[hidden email]>
> > Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] feedback from yet another student presentation
> >
> > > - it was reallllly hard to register a project on smalltalkhub just after we created an account.
> > > This already happened to me during the open-devs.
> > > So this is a really big show stopper for the mooc. Because people will gave up just after the first lecture :(
> >
> > The situation will be much easier I hope once git is well supported…
> >
> > > - we should really rename Class>>name: into setClassName:
> > > students were manipulating object with name such as state of state machine and one wrote
> > >
> > > State name: 'A' and just rename the class and broke the system.
> >
> > I have just created an issue:
> > https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17798/Rename-Class-name-into-setClassName
>
> Marked as a duplicate of: https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/7241/Object-name-should-best-be-removed
>
> This has been an issue for years.
>
> Leave it as-is and anyone defining a class-side name: constructor risks breaking any tooling that still relies on name: renaming a class. Use named: (much more common in the image) instead and nothing will break, but now anyone that mistypes the selector as name: (no "d") accidentally renames the class, and to a string instead of a symbol.
>
> > Alexandre
> > --
> > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
> > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Henrik Nergaard

Re: feedback from yet another student presentation

In reply to this post by monty-3

And changed back again because it is two different cases ;).

Case 7241 is about removing the instance side method #name , which gives you a generic name of the receiver (by default #printString) where any if its uses is such that it is really hard to use it for anything like defining a variable named name wanting to have an accessor to it, since most senders expect a string in return etc.

The issue raised here is about the fragile naming of the instance variable 'name' in the class Class, which causes all meta classes to have an "class side" instance variable name (view the class side of any class in nautilus and click on the variables button and you can see all the class side variables defined) + the methods #name/#name: on the class side of any class.

This can cause some fun behaviour like crashing the image if you set the name to anything but a symbol -> "TabsExample name: TabsExample new"

Best regards,
Henrik

-----Original Message-----
From: Pharo-dev [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of monty
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 10:35 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] feedback from yet another student presentation

> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 4:14 PM
> From: "Alexandre Bergel" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Pharo Development List" <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] feedback from yet another student
> presentation
>
> > - it was reallllly hard to register a project on smalltalkhub just after we created an account.
> > This already happened to me during the open-devs.
> > So this is a really big show stopper for the mooc. Because people
> > will gave up just after the first lecture :(
>
> The situation will be much easier I hope once git is well supported…
>
> > - we should really rename Class>>name: into setClassName:
> > students were manipulating object with name such as state of state
> > machine and one wrote
> >
> > State name: 'A' and just rename the class and broke the system.
>
> I have just created an issue:
> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17798/Rename-Class-name-into-setClas
> sName

> Alexandre
> --
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>
>
>
>
>

Uko2

Re: feedback from yet another student presentation

In reply to this post by abergel

> On 10 Mar 2016, at 22:14, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> - it was reallllly hard to register a project on smalltalkhub just after we created an account.
>> This already happened to me during the open-devs.
>> So this is a really big show stopper for the mooc. Because people will gave up just after the first lecture :(
>
> The situation will be much easier I hope once git is well supported…

If they know git - yes. Otherwise git is very complicated. But at least we will be able to say that this is not our fault.

Uko

>
>> - we should really rename Class>>name: into setClassName:
>> students were manipulating object with name such as state of state machine and one wrote
>>
>> State name: 'A' and just rename the class and broke the system.
>
> I have just created an issue:
> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17798/Rename-Class-name-into-setClassName
>
> Alexandre
> --
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>
>
>
>

Peter Uhnak

Re: feedback from yet another student presentation

If they know git - yes. Otherwise git is very complicated. But at least we will be able to say that this is not our fault.

Software students not knowing git in this day and age… is just sad.

Git can get very complicated if you are going very deep, but then again that's true for any powerful tool, language, or system.

cbc

Re: feedback from yet another student presentation

In reply to this post by abergel

On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 1:14 PM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> - it was reallllly hard to register a project on smalltalkhub just after we created an account.
> This already happened to me during the open-devs.
> So this is a really big show stopper for the mooc. Because people will gave up just after the first lecture :(

The situation will be much easier I hope once git is well supported…

which is probably why smalltalkhub is in the state it is - works fairly well, but who wants to put time into improving it when we are actively moving away from it?

Bummer.

-cbc

philippeback

Re: feedback from yet another student presentation

In reply to this post by abergel

SmalltalkHub looks like to have issues.

e.g. Hilaire not being able to access the Mold project despite being a contributor.

Removing/adding him didn't change much to the situation.

We need to have more resources focusing on it as this is now a key part of our infrastructure.

Phil

On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 10:14 PM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> - it was reallllly hard to register a project on smalltalkhub just after we created an account.
> This already happened to me during the open-devs.
> So this is a really big show stopper for the mooc. Because people will gave up just after the first lecture :(

The situation will be much easier I hope once git is well supported…

> - we should really rename Class>>name: into setClassName:
> students were manipulating object with name such as state of state machine and one wrote
>
> State name: 'A' and just rename the class and broke the system.

I have just created an issue:
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17798/Rename-Class-name-into-setClassName

Alexandre
--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

philippeback

Re: feedback from yet another student presentation

In reply to this post by Peter Uhnak

You'd be surprise at how little people know in some places.

On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 11:04 PM, Peter Uhnák <[hidden email]> wrote:

If they know git - yes. Otherwise git is very complicated. But at least we will be able to say that this is not our fault.

Software students not knowing git in this day and age… is just sad.

Git can get very complicated if you are going very deep, but then again that's true for any powerful tool, language, or system.

philippeback

Re: feedback from yet another student presentation

In reply to this post by cbc

Smalltalkhub is nice but it is based on Amber for its frontend and an old version at that.

Not sure that it is the easiest thing in the world to maintain.

Maybe it could be redone as a Seaside app with a couple of jQuery enhancements.

On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 11:16 PM, Chris Cunningham <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 1:14 PM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:
> - it was reallllly hard to register a project on smalltalkhub just after we created an account.
> This already happened to me during the open-devs.
> So this is a really big show stopper for the mooc. Because people will gave up just after the first lecture :(

The situation will be much easier I hope once git is well supported…

which is probably why smalltalkhub is in the state it is - works fairly well, but who wants to put time into improving it when we are actively moving away from it?

Bummer.
-cbc

kilon.alios

Re: feedback from yet another student presentation

In reply to this post by Uko2

Its not your fault that:

a) Git has far better documentation

b) Git has clear commands that leave little ambiguity to how the versioning works

c) Git GUIs are light years ahead of Monticello

d) Git supports versioning any file and not just code

e) Github does not brake down every other day and it comes also with great documentation, awesome features and incredible flexibility

f) Git and Github support an incredible amount of languages and most importantly projects that use multiple languages

g) Git can run circles around Pharo versioning in terms of performance

h) Git does not have to contact a million websites to do a single commit

Just send those students to me, I will apologize

On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 11:56 PM Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 10 Mar 2016, at 22:14, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> - it was reallllly hard to register a project on smalltalkhub just after we created an account.
>> This already happened to me during the open-devs.
>> So this is a really big show stopper for the mooc. Because people will gave up just after the first lecture :(
>
> The situation will be much easier I hope once git is well supported…

If they know git - yes. Otherwise git is very complicated. But at least we will be able to say that this is not our fault.

Uko

>
>> - we should really rename Class>>name: into setClassName:
>> students were manipulating object with name such as state of state machine and one wrote
>>
>> State name: 'A' and just rename the class and broke the system.
>
> I have just created an issue:
> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17798/Rename-Class-name-into-setClassName
>
> Alexandre
> --
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>
>
>
>

monty-3

Re: feedback from yet another student presentation

In reply to this post by philippeback

There's also the option of SS3 skinned to look like STH. We also really need TLS.

Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 5:33 PM
From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
To: "Pharo Development List" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] feedback from yet another student presentation

SmalltalkHub looks like to have issues.
e.g. Hilaire not being able to access the Mold project despite being a contributor.
Removing/adding him didn't change much to the situation.

We need to have more resources focusing on it as this is now a key part of our infrastructure.

Phil

On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 10:14 PM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:> - it was reallllly hard to register a project on smalltalkhub just after we created an account.
> This already happened to me during the open-devs.
> So this is a really big show stopper for the mooc. Because people will gave up just after the first lecture :(

The situation will be much easier I hope once git is well supported…

> - we should really rename Class>>name: into setClassName:
> students were manipulating object with name such as state of state machine and one wrote
>
> State name: 'A' and just rename the class and broke the system.

I have just created an issue:
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17798/Rename-Class-name-into-setClassName[https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17798/Rename-Class-name-into-setClassName]

Alexandre
--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu[http://www.bergel.eu]
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

stepharo

Re: feedback from yet another student presentation

In reply to this post by abergel

Le 10/3/16 22:14, Alexandre Bergel a écrit :
>> - it was reallllly hard to register a project on smalltalkhub just after we created an account.
>> This already happened to me during the open-devs.
>> So this is a really big show stopper for the mooc. Because people will gave up just after the first lecture :(
> The situation will be much easier I hope once git is well supported…

But will we have to answer 100 of problems during the mooc?
And if people drop after just because they cannot save their code as we
say it :(

>
>> - we should really rename Class>>name: into setClassName:
>> students were manipulating object with name such as state of state machine and one wrote
>>
>> State name: 'A' and just rename the class and broke the system.
> I have just created an issue:
> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17798/Rename-Class-name-into-setClassName

it was deprecated and turn into setName: but I think that setClassName:
is better.

>
> Alexandre

stepharo

Re: feedback from yet another student presentation

In reply to this post by monty-3

Le 11/3/16 03:22, monty a écrit :
> There's also the option of SS3 skinned to look like STH. We also really need TLS.

what is TSL?

>
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 5:33 PM
> From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Pharo Development List" <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] feedback from yet another student presentation
>
> SmalltalkHub looks like to have issues.
> e.g. Hilaire not being able to access the Mold project despite being a contributor.
> Removing/adding him didn't change much to the situation.
>
> We need to have more resources focusing on it as this is now a key part of our infrastructure.
>
> Phil
>
> On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 10:14 PM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:> - it was reallllly hard to register a project on smalltalkhub just after we created an account.
>> This already happened to me during the open-devs.
>> So this is a really big show stopper for the mooc. Because people will gave up just after the first lecture :(
> The situation will be much easier I hope once git is well supported…
>
>> - we should really rename Class>>name: into setClassName:
>> students were manipulating object with name such as state of state machine and one wrote
>>
>> State name: 'A' and just rename the class and broke the system.
> I have just created an issue:
> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17798/Rename-Class-name-into-setClassName[https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17798/Rename-Class-name-into-setClassName]
>
> Alexandre
> --
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu[http://www.bergel.eu]
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>
>
>
>
>
>

stepharo

Re: feedback from yet another student presentation

In reply to this post by philippeback

Me too and olivier too on our own projects!

Stef

Le 10/3/16 23:33, [hidden email] a écrit :

SmalltalkHub looks like to have issues.
e.g. Hilaire not being able to access the Mold project despite being a contributor.

Removing/adding him didn't change much to the situation.

We need to have more resources focusing on it as this is now a key part of our infrastructure.

Phil

On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 10:14 PM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> - it was reallllly hard to register a project on smalltalkhub just after we created an account.
> This already happened to me during the open-devs.
> So this is a really big show stopper for the mooc. Because people will gave up just after the first lecture :(

The situation will be much easier I hope once git is well supported…

> - we should really rename Class>>name: into setClassName:
> students were manipulating object with name such as state of state machine and one wrote
>
> State name: 'A' and just rename the class and broke the system.

I have just created an issue:
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17798/Rename-Class-name-into-setClassName

Alexandre
--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

stepharo

Re: feedback from yet another student presentation

In reply to this post by Peter Uhnak

THIS IS NOT THE POINT.
THE POINT IS THAT WE WORKED LIKE MAD TO OFFER MOOC AND GET EXPOSURE
AND IF SMALLTALKHUB DOES NOT WORK IT DEFEATS OUR GOAL

Am'i clear?

Stef

Le 10/3/16 23:04, Peter Uhnák a écrit :

If they know git - yes. Otherwise git is very complicated. But at least we will be able to say that this is not our fault.

Software students not knowing git in this day and age… is just sad.

Git can get very complicated if you are going very deep, but then again that's true for any powerful tool, language, or system.

SergeStinckwich

Re: feedback from yet another student presentation

In reply to this post by stepharo

On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 8:08 AM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Le 10/3/16 22:14, Alexandre Bergel a écrit :
>>>
>>> - it was reallllly hard to register a project on smalltalkhub just after
>>> we created an account.
>>> This already happened to me during the open-devs.
>>> So this is a really big show stopper for the mooc. Because people will
>>> gave up just after the first lecture :(
>>
>> The situation will be much easier I hope once git is well supported…
>
>
> But will we have to answer 100 of problems during the mooc?
> And if people drop after just because they cannot save their code as we say
> it :(

Yes this is real annoying problem ... Maybe you can ask Gemstone to
support the MOOC
with a dedicated ss3 instance (or use ss3).

--
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/

philippe.back@highoctane.be

Re: feedback from yet another student presentation

STH can be fixed. This is more like some data problem.

Who can look at the system to identify issues? Is this a Mongo issue?

Phil

On Mar 11, 2016 8:17 AM, "Serge Stinckwich" <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 8:08 AM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Le 10/3/16 22:14, Alexandre Bergel a écrit :
>>>
>>> - it was reallllly hard to register a project on smalltalkhub just after
>>> we created an account.
>>> This already happened to me during the open-devs.
>>> So this is a really big show stopper for the mooc. Because people will
>>> gave up just after the first lecture :(
>>
>> The situation will be much easier I hope once git is well supported…
>
>
> But will we have to answer 100 of problems during the mooc?
> And if people drop after just because they cannot save their code as we say
> it :(

Yes this is real annoying problem ... Maybe you can ask Gemstone to
support the MOOC
with a dedicated ss3 instance (or use ss3).

--
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/

philippe.back@highoctane.be

Re: feedback from yet another student presentation

And that woukd be a nice thing to hack on during PharoDays.

On Mar 11, 2016 9:22 AM, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote:

STH can be fixed. This is more like some data problem.

Who can look at the system to identify issues? Is this a Mongo issue?

Phil

On Mar 11, 2016 8:17 AM, "Serge Stinckwich" <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 8:08 AM, stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Le 10/3/16 22:14, Alexandre Bergel a écrit :
>>>
>>> - it was reallllly hard to register a project on smalltalkhub just after
>>> we created an account.
>>> This already happened to me during the open-devs.
>>> So this is a really big show stopper for the mooc. Because people will
>>> gave up just after the first lecture :(
>>
>> The situation will be much easier I hope once git is well supported…
>
>
> But will we have to answer 100 of problems during the mooc?
> And if people drop after just because they cannot save their code as we say
> it :(

Yes this is real annoying problem ... Maybe you can ask Gemstone to
support the MOOC
with a dedicated ss3 instance (or use ss3).

--
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/