lessphic? may be a future for morphic
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lessphic? may be a future for morphic
 
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http:/piumarta.com/software/cola/canvas.pdf
BTW one of these days it would be good to - identify the core of morphic (should not that be difficult) - rethink these parts Because we need a small better done UI framework or simply implement lessphic in Squeak |
Re: lessphic? may be a future for morphic
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I is hard to get excited about adopting something when the author includes a statement like
"Please, please replace the system described herein at your earliest convenience with something infinitely better (maybe using generalised relationships and constraints rather than hard-wired structure)" But I am all for replacing the current pile of goo. On Jan 29, 2008, at 11:25 AM, stephane ducasse wrote: http:/piumarta.com/software/cola/canvas.pdf |
Re: lessphic? may be a future for morphic
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In reply to this post by stephane ducasse
Hi Stef,
stephane ducasse wrote: > http:/piumarta.com/software/cola/canvas.pdf > > BTW > one of these days it would be good to > - identify the core of morphic (should not that be difficult) > - rethink these parts This looks exactly what I'm doing with Morphic 3. Anybody willing to do as you say is welcome to check what I'm doing, and work together. I believe Morphic 3 can be the next UI framework for Squeak. Do you? To read about Morphic 3, see http://www.jvuletich.org/Smalltalks2007/St2007VuletichMorphic3TalkProposal.pdf and http://www.jvuletich.org/Morphic3/TheFutureOfTheGUI_01.html . > Because we need a small better done UI framework or simply implement > lessphic in Squeak > > > > Sure! Cheers, Juan Vuletich |
Re: lessphic? may be a future for morphic
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On Jan 30, 2008 3:01 PM, Juan Vuletich <[hidden email]> wrote: Hi Stef, Some time in the next couple of years, I'll need a secure graphics API for my SecureSqueak project. The basic idea is that I need as thin a layer of abstraction as possible over various 2-D graphics targets: X11, MS Windows, Mac, Postscript/other printer APIs, OpenGL, VNC and possibly libraries such as Cairo. It would also need to do some event handling, as many events rely on a particular coordinate system. GUIs such as Morphic or Tweak would run on top of this. Does your Morphic3 project have a base which could target all these? So far all I'm seeing is talk about bizarre coordinate systems. Gulik. -- http://people.squeakfoundation.org/person/mikevdg http://gulik.pbwiki.com/ |
Re: lessphic? may be a future for morphic
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In reply to this post by Juan Vuletich-4
Hi juan
I know your project now I told you that several times so I repeat it again: If we cannot load Morphic 3 beside Morphic 2 then really few people will be able to load it. The transition phase will be difficult. So think again about it. If you force people to chose then you will not gain from them. Now if I can load Morphic 3 beside Morphic2 then I'm sure people may help to port elements from one to the other. Look at the stream of Craig. Stef On Jan 30, 2008, at 3:01 AM, Juan Vuletich wrote: > Hi Stef, > > stephane ducasse wrote: >> http:/piumarta.com/software/cola/canvas.pdf >> >> BTW >> one of these days it would be good to >> - identify the core of morphic (should not that be difficult) >> - rethink these parts > This looks exactly what I'm doing with Morphic 3. Anybody willing to > do as you say is welcome to check what I'm doing, and work together. > I believe Morphic 3 can be the next UI framework for Squeak. Do you? > > To read about Morphic 3, see http://www.jvuletich.org/Smalltalks2007/St2007VuletichMorphic3TalkProposal.pdf > and http://www.jvuletich.org/Morphic3/TheFutureOfTheGUI_01.html . >> Because we need a small better done UI framework or simply >> implement lessphic in Squeak >> >> >> >> > > Sure! > > Cheers, > Juan Vuletich > > |
Re: lessphic? may be a future for morphic
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In reply to this post by Michael van der Gulik-2
Hi Gulik,
Morphic 3 supports arbitrary non-linear coordinate systems. I don't understand how you envision rendering over those targets. Morphic 3 has a rendering engine that renders on Squeak Display, as current Morphic's canvases with Balloon 2D and BitBlt. Please read my documents, and let's talk about coordinate systems! Currently I have implemented Cartesian, LogX and a few cartographic. Watch the demo at Smalltalks 2007 at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90TGhRZUSOo . It is worth watching even if you don't understand my Spanish. Cheers, Juan Vuletich Michael van der Gulik wrote: > > > > Some time in the next couple of years, I'll need a secure graphics API > for my SecureSqueak project. The basic idea is that I need as thin a > layer of abstraction as possible over various 2-D graphics targets: > X11, MS Windows, Mac, Postscript/other printer APIs, OpenGL, VNC and > possibly libraries such as Cairo. It would also need to do some event > handling, as many events rely on a particular coordinate system. GUIs > such as Morphic or Tweak would run on top of this. > > Does your Morphic3 project have a base which could target all these? > So far all I'm seeing is talk about bizarre coordinate systems. > > Gulik. > > > -- > http://people.squeakfoundation.org/person/mikevdg > http://gulik.pbwiki.com/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.16/1250 - Release Date: 1/29/2008 10:20 PM > |
Re: lessphic? may be a future for morphic
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In reply to this post by stephane ducasse
Hi Stef,
It is all about objectives, priorities and resources. I'm not against running M3 beside M2. And I'm not forcing people to chose. If you have options (Morphic 2 / lessphic / Tweak / Morphic 3 / whatever) then you need to chose. Don't blame me of that. It is just that I don't want to spend my very little time on that. I prefer to think and develop the design. However anyone can help. Let's get to your objectives: If your objective is to "- identify the core of morphic and - rethink these parts" then whether you can load M3 beside M2 or not is pretty irrelevant. You can just use my image. That's what I expect from people wanting to discuss the ideas and help developing it. I mean, if you want to rethink the core of Morphic, just start criticizing my documents and what I've done so far. If your objective is "Need to load it beside M2" then you can help. You can: - work on it - get a student or someone to work on it - get Esug to sponsor me. If I could work full time on M3, things would go much faster. Cheers, Juan Vuletich Ps. What do you mean by "the stream of Craig"? stephane ducasse wrote: > Hi juan > > I know your project now I told you that several times so I repeat it > again: > If we cannot load Morphic 3 beside Morphic 2 then really few people > will be able to load it. > The transition phase will be difficult. So think again about it. If > you force people to chose > then you will not gain from them. Now if I can load Morphic 3 beside > Morphic2 then I'm sure people > may help to port elements from one to the other. > Look at the stream of Craig. > > Stef > |
Re: lessphic? may be a future for morphic
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In reply to this post by Michael van der Gulik-2
Hi Michael,
> Some time in the next couple of years, I'll need a secure graphics > API for my SecureSqueak project. The basic idea is that I need as > thin a layer of abstraction as possible over various 2-D graphics > targets: X11, MS Windows, Mac, Postscript/other printer APIs, > OpenGL, VNC and possibly libraries such as Cairo. It would also > need to do some event handling, as many events rely on a particular > coordinate system. GUIs such as Morphic or Tweak would run on top > of this. You said "secure". Can you elaborate on this? Cheers, Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. |
Re: lessphic? may be a future for morphic
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In reply to this post by stephane ducasse
Stef, Juan and all Squeakers:
I repeat here my last mail about this issue Morphic 3.0 deserves lot more as "your stuff lack my XYZ needs" attitude. In fact, is a beauty waiting gentlemen come to help ! As I said in "Discussion about development of Squeak 3.10" <[hidden email]> , Juan convinces me as at this time he should work in his image and don't try Morphic 3 runs in "normal" Squeak (as I previous think, Stef) I'm very sorry can't meet in person with Juan often and work together. Juan, if you need I test some in Mac, XP, and Linux, I'm here. Edgar |
Re: lessphic? may be a future for morphic
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In reply to this post by Bergel, Alexandre
On Jan 30, 2008 1:41 PM, Bergel, Alexandre <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > You said "secure". Can you elaborate on this? I'm also confused by this. For me a "secure" whatever means a whatever that can't be broken into. Do mean an API written with your namespace solution or do you actually mean "stable"? |
Re: lessphic? may be a future for morphic
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In reply to this post by Bergel, Alexandre
On Jan 31, 2008 1:41 AM, Bergel, Alexandre <[hidden email]> wrote: Hi Michael, Untrusted code will be loaded, in bytecode form with dynamically rebound literals, from an untrusted remote server and executed locally. It would be able to render graphics, but not use the graphics / event-handling API to otherwise affect the running of any other remotely loaded untrusted code. This includes the untrusted code being denied access to important objects and using excessive resources (cpu/memory/disk/network) such that the running of other code is affected. For example, untrusted code will only be able to draw within the bounds of a Canvas passed to it. Draw commands outside this area will be clipped. More here: http://gulik.pbwiki.com/SecureSqueak. Gulik. -- http://people.squeakfoundation.org/person/mikevdg http://gulik.pbwiki.com/ |
Re: lessphic? may be a future for morphic
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On Jan 31, 2008 9:27 AM, Michael van der Gulik <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sorry... I answered the question but didn't explain why. I was hoping that Juan -- http://people.squeakfoundation.org/person/mikevdg http://gulik.pbwiki.com/ |
Re: lessphic? may be a future for morphic
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In reply to this post by Michael van der Gulik-2
On Jan 31, 2008 9:27 AM, Michael van der Gulik <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sorry... I answered the question but didn't explain why. I was hoping that Juan would have made an architectural separation at some point between a hardware abstracting API, with his Morphic 3 running on top of it. Ideally, these would be two separate projects; the hardware API would use handle basic drawing and event management, and Morphic 3 would process those events and do the fancy transformations. Gulik. -- http://people.squeakfoundation.org/person/mikevdg http://gulik.pbwiki.com/ |
Re: lessphic? may be a future for morphic
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In reply to this post by Juan Vuletich-4
On Jan 31, 2008 12:04 AM, Juan Vuletich <[hidden email]> wrote: Hi Gulik, Could you give a few examples of where the arbitrary coordinate systems would actually be useful? This is the part I'm confused about - you're focussing on them a lot, but I don't see why. I would have thought it would be up to the application to provide the logorithmic coordinate mappings rather than the GUI. Gulik. -- http://people.squeakfoundation.org/person/mikevdg http://gulik.pbwiki.com/ |
Re: lessphic? may be a future for morphic
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In reply to this post by Michael van der Gulik-2
To do rendering that is really pixel independent and support the non
linear geometric deformations implied by arbitrary coordinate systems you can not use standard drawing primitives. Morphic 3 really needs a new, custom rendering engine. Check the video of my demo. You'll understand you can not do that with, for example, OpenGL. Cheers, Juan Vuletich Michael van der Gulik wrote: > Sorry... I answered the question but didn't explain why. > > I was hoping that Juan would have made an architectural separation at > some point between a hardware abstracting API, with his Morphic 3 > running on top of it. Ideally, these would be two separate projects; > the hardware API would use handle basic drawing and event management, > and Morphic 3 would process those events and do the fancy transformations. > > Gulik. > > -- > http://people.squeakfoundation.org/person/mikevdg > http://gulik.pbwiki.com/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.17/1252 - Release Date: 1/30/2008 8:51 PM > |
Re: lessphic? may be a future for morphic
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In reply to this post by Michael van der Gulik-2
Hi Gulik,
Michael van der Gulik wrote: > > > On Jan 31, 2008 12:04 AM, Juan Vuletich <[hidden email] > <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: > > Hi Gulik, > > Morphic 3 supports arbitrary non-linear coordinate systems. I don't > understand how you envision rendering over those targets. Morphic > 3 has > a rendering engine that renders on Squeak Display, as current > Morphic's > canvases with Balloon 2D and BitBlt. > > Please read my documents, and let's talk about coordinate systems! > Currently I have implemented Cartesian, LogX and a few cartographic. > Watch the demo at Smalltalks 2007 at > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90TGhRZUSOo . It is worth watching even > if you don't understand my Spanish. > > > > Could you give a few examples of where the arbitrary coordinate > systems would actually be useful? This is the part I'm confused about > - you're focussing on them a lot, but I don't see why. > > I would have thought it would be up to the application to provide the > logorithmic coordinate mappings rather than the GUI. > applications, the behavior is neither consistent nor correct (see my approach to pixel independent rendering), there is duplicated effort, many bugs appears, etc. Please do read http://www.jvuletich.org/Smalltalks2007/St2007VuletichMorphic3TalkProposal.pdf . Also read http://www.jvuletich.org/Morphic3/TheFutureOfTheGUI_02.html and http://www.jvuletich.org/Morphic3/TheFutureOfTheGUI_032.html . I try to make my point there. I don't know what to say but repeat what I wrote there. If I'm not clear enough or you don't agree with me, tell me! Cheers, Juan Vuletich |
Re: lessphic? may be a future for morphic
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On Jan 31, 2008 2:27 PM, Juan Vuletich <[hidden email]> wrote: Hi Gulik, Could you give some examples of where a non-linear coordinate system would be useful? I don't understand why you would want them in the GUI rather than the application. What other features does Morphic 3 have? All I'm seeing is "non-linear coordinate systems". Gulik. -- http://people.squeakfoundation.org/person/mikevdg http://gulik.pbwiki.com/ |
Re: lessphic? may be a future for morphic
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In reply to this post by Juan Vuletich-4
On Jan 31, 2008, at 2:27 , Juan Vuletich wrote: > To do rendering that is really pixel independent and support the > non linear geometric deformations implied by arbitrary coordinate > systems you can not use standard drawing primitives. Morphic 3 > really needs a new, custom rendering engine. Check the video of my > demo. You'll understand you can not do that with, for example, OpenGL. The way I would do your demo in OpenGL would be that every morph renders to its own off-screen surface, and when compositing, it would apply the non-linear transformation. This is now a standard implementation technique, except it usually is not used for projective geometry but for fancy effects (like the Genie effect when minimizing Mac OS X windows). Mind I did not understand what you said in the talk, just commenting on the visuals ... - Bert - |
Re: lessphic? may be a future for morphic
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I'd like to hear, how this highly abstract structures and coordinate
systems can be designed in such manner, that it will be efficient for rendering with high speed using pixel blitting operations and/or hardware accelerated libraries (such as OpenGL). -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. |
Re: lessphic? may be a future for morphic
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In reply to this post by Michael van der Gulik-2
> > > > > > Could you give a few examples of where the arbitrary coordinate > > systems would actually be useful? This is the part I'm confused > about > > - you're focussing on them a lot, but I don't see why. > > > > I would have thought it would be up to the application to > provide the > > logorithmic coordinate mappings rather than the GUI. > > > That how it is usually done. So that code is repeated in various > applications, the behavior is neither consistent nor correct (see my > approach to pixel independent rendering), there is duplicated effort, > many bugs appears, etc. Please do read > http://www.jvuletich.org/Smalltalks2007/St2007VuletichMorphic3TalkProposal.pdf > . Also read > http://www.jvuletich.org/Morphic3/TheFutureOfTheGUI_02.html > and http://www.jvuletich.org/Morphic3/TheFutureOfTheGUI_032.html . > I try > to make my point there. I don't know what to say but repeat what I > wrote > there. If I'm not clear enough or you don't agree with me, tell me! > > > > Could you give some examples of where a non-linear coordinate system > would be useful? I don't understand why you would want them in the GUI > rather than the application. in music, geographic in maps, polar in math. Having that in the GUI offers the same advantages of having Morphic instead of implementing an ad hoc idea of graphic object in each application. > > What other features does Morphic 3 have? All I'm seeing is "non-linear > coordinate systems". > Morph specification that is agnostic about pixels and resolution. This is the key to building GUIs that look good on screen with different dpi's. Theorically correct antia aliasing ("the signal processing approach to anti aliasing"). Better design that current Morphic, with simpler and smaller code. Cheers, Juan Vuletich |
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