macOS Sierra support
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Hi,
Can someone who really knows/understand please describe where to find the necessary Pharo VM's to run on the newly released macOS Sierra (10.12) ? In particular it seems old VM's just stop working and recent VM's that do work either have issues or cannot run older (3.0, 4.0) images. Thanks, Sven PS: I have not yet upgraded, but one of my colleagues did and he got stuck: even after we found a VM that worked, it could only run 5.0 images, not his production 4.0 images. Needless to say, this is not good. PS2: Another really annoying problem is the following: he saved all his (really important) scripts using Script Manager as a FUEL. Moving between 4.0 and 5.0 FUEL stops working (version incompatibility) - this is really not cool, why would a newer FUEL not be able to read older FUEL. He ended up copying string data by opening the binary FUEL file in a text editor. |
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Sven,
it is like that from the beginning. I guess there was the fear keeping everything compatible would be a huge amount of work. But it is indeed an annoying thing. The usual way to deal with it is open pharo4 and materialize the fuel file then upgrade fuel to the version pharo5 uses and save again. Norbert |
Re: macOS Sierra support
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> On 27 Sep 2016, at 11:21, Norbert Hartl <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Sven, > >> Am 27.09.2016 um 11:15 schrieb Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]>: >> >> PS2: Another really annoying problem is the following: he saved all his (really important) scripts using Script Manager as a FUEL. Moving between 4.0 and 5.0 FUEL stops working (version incompatibility) - this is really not cool, why would a newer FUEL not be able to read older FUEL. He ended up copying string data by opening the binary FUEL file in a text editor. > > it is like that from the beginning. I guess there was the fear keeping everything compatible would be a huge amount of work. But it is indeed an annoying thing. The usual way to deal with it is open pharo4 and materialize the fuel file then upgrade fuel to the version pharo5 uses and save again. > > Norbert Yeah, but this is silly: it goes against the principle of a persistence format: to save data for future use. [ I knew this already, I never agreed with this principle ]. Like I described in the email, after upgrading, we were unable to run the old image - catch 22. |
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In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
Hi Sven
> Hi, > > Can someone who really knows/understand please describe where to find the necessary Pharo VM's to run on the newly released macOS Sierra (10.12) ? I will let Esteban reply. > In particular it seems old VM's just stop working and recent VM's that do work either have issues or cannot run older (3.0, 4.0) images. But you see Pharo 50 got all the internal object representation changed. It happens only every 15 years or more. This is not an easy changes. We did not rewrote a new FFI just because we did not know what to do. The new format open so many future opportunities but it has a cost. Well if mac changes some important low-level entries why the VM would not be impacted. Esteban is working on - 64 bits support - ARM VM - after he should work on the FT plugin Now I think that he is quite efficient as engineers and it means that the community should help or put more money on the table to get more engineers. > Thanks, > > Sven > > PS: I have not yet upgraded, but one of my colleagues did and he got stuck: even after we found a VM that worked, it could only run 5.0 images, not his production 4.0 images. Needless to say, this is not good. > > PS2: Another really annoying problem is the following: he saved all his (really important) scripts using Script Manager as a FUEL. Moving between 4.0 and 5.0 FUEL stops working (version incompatibility) - this is really not cool, why would a newer FUEL not be able to read older FUEL. He ended up copying string data by opening the binary FUEL file in a text editor. I was really concerned by that since Fuel inception. I agree with you. I think that a serialization format should live over multiple versions. Now this is difficult to achieve when the serializer is drastically optimised and rely on internal representation logic. And manpower of course. What the Script Manager should do is to provide a textual output too like using STON. |
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In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
Hi Sven, An experimental build of the VM works again on Sierra (I’ve tested this one: https://bintray.com/estebanlm/pharo-vm/build/201609201407#files). The problem was with the bundle code and a change from Apple’s side to Cocoa. The new VM is a Spur VM of course. If you need a Cog VM, you can try a Squeak VM (e.g. 'Croquet Closure Cog VM [CoInterpreterPrimitives VMMaker.oscog-eem.1095] Squeak Cog 4.0.3282’) or run the current PharoVM in a virtual machine on Linux (as I’ve done). Concerning Fuel: the versioning problem is a known and big issue I have to admit. Which Fuel versions does your problem concern? There were some big changes for Fuel from Pharo 4 to 5, e.g. MethodContext was renamed to Context. Depending on the objects you store however, you may be able to load the file simply by removing the version check in Fuel, as most things should be identical. Cheers, Max
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In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
>>> Am 27.09.2016 um 11:15 schrieb Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]>: >>> >>> PS2: Another really annoying problem is the following: he saved all his (really important) scripts using Script Manager as a FUEL. Moving between 4.0 and 5.0 FUEL stops working (version incompatibility) - this is really not cool, why would a newer FUEL not be able to read older FUEL. He ended up copying string data by opening the binary FUEL file in a text editor. >> it is like that from the beginning. I guess there was the fear keeping everything compatible would be a huge amount of work. But it is indeed an annoying thing. The usual way to deal with it is open pharo4 and materialize the fuel file then upgrade fuel to the version pharo5 uses and save again. >> >> Norbert > Yeah, but this is silly: it goes against the principle of a persistence format: to save data for future use. [ I knew this already, I never agreed with this principle ]. Me too - believe but my scenario was not really heard. I think that it would be good to have some strategies to represent different objects representation but fuel will be slower. Mariano was fighting against speed and speed and speed. and he did it well. > Like I described in the email, after upgrading, we were unable to run the old image - catch 22. |
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In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
I’m in the process of producing compatible VMs. Today or tomorrow they will be ready. Esteban ps: in the mean time, you can use this one: cog_macos32x86_pharo.cog.spur_201609231453.tar.gz (is not yet 100% compatible with Pharo but is working fine… just command line “-“ vs. “--" is not compatible and some others…)
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In reply to this post by Max Leske
On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:43 AM, Max Leske <[hidden email]> wrote:
From Pharo 5 to Pharo 6, likely there will be the change from BlockClosure to FullBlockClosure that will have some impact... We'll keep for Pharo 6 the BlockClosure support for migration purpose then.
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Re: macOS Sierra support
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> On 27 Sep 2016, at 13:41, Clément Bera <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > > On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:43 AM, Max Leske <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi Sven, > > An experimental build of the VM works again on Sierra (I’ve tested this one: https://bintray.com/estebanlm/pharo-vm/build/201609201407#files). The problem was with the bundle code and a change from Apple’s side to Cocoa. The new VM is a Spur VM of course. If you need a Cog VM, you can try a Squeak VM (e.g. 'Croquet Closure Cog VM [CoInterpreterPrimitives VMMaker.oscog-eem.1095] Squeak Cog 4.0.3282’) or run the current PharoVM in a virtual machine on Linux (as I’ve done). > > Concerning Fuel: the versioning problem is a known and big issue I have to admit. Which Fuel versions does your problem concern? There were some big changes for Fuel from Pharo 4 to 5, e.g. MethodContext was renamed to Context. Depending on the objects you store however, you may be able to load the file simply by removing the version check in Fuel, as most things should be identical. > > > From Pharo 5 to Pharo 6, likely there will be the change from BlockClosure to FullBlockClosure that will have some impact... We'll keep for Pharo 6 the BlockClosure support for migration purpose then. The problem is not so much that if there is a change there is an incompatibility, that would be understandable. [ And then supporting some backward compatibility is good ] The problem is that FUEL moves forward in version number, and it refuses to load unless the versions match, even if all you do is, say, safe a collection of strings. It should only fail when it really encounters something that changed. > Cheers, > Max > > >> On 27 Sep 2016, at 11:26, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> >>> On 27 Sep 2016, at 11:21, Norbert Hartl <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> Sven, >>> >>>> Am 27.09.2016 um 11:15 schrieb Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]>: >>>> >>>> PS2: Another really annoying problem is the following: he saved all his (really important) scripts using Script Manager as a FUEL. Moving between 4.0 and 5.0 FUEL stops working (version incompatibility) - this is really not cool, why would a newer FUEL not be able to read older FUEL. He ended up copying string data by opening the binary FUEL file in a text editor. >>> >>> it is like that from the beginning. I guess there was the fear keeping everything compatible would be a huge amount of work. But it is indeed an annoying thing. The usual way to deal with it is open pharo4 and materialize the fuel file then upgrade fuel to the version pharo5 uses and save again. >>> >>> Norbert >> >> Yeah, but this is silly: it goes against the principle of a persistence format: to save data for future use. [ I knew this already, I never agreed with this principle ]. >> >> Like I described in the email, after upgrading, we were unable to run the old image - catch 22. |
Re: macOS Sierra support
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In reply to this post by EstebanLM
> On 27 Sep 2016, at 12:18, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> On 27 Sep 2016, at 11:15, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> Can someone who really knows/understand please describe where to find the necessary Pharo VM's to run on the newly released macOS Sierra (10.12) ? > > I’m in the process of producing compatible VMs. > Today or tomorrow they will be ready. OK, looking forward to it, we will certainly test. |
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In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
I understand that. But as I wrote, try disabling the version check.
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Re: macOS Sierra support
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In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
> On 27 Sep 2016, at 13:46, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> >> On 27 Sep 2016, at 12:18, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >>> On 27 Sep 2016, at 11:15, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Can someone who really knows/understand please describe where to find the necessary Pharo VM's to run on the newly released macOS Sierra (10.12) ? >> >> I’m in the process of producing compatible VMs. >> Today or tomorrow they will be ready. > > OK, looking forward to it, we will certainly test. Any progress ? << Starting today, Apple is making the new macOS Sierra operating system available as an automatic download to customers running OS X El Capitan in order to encourage them to update. Customers who have auto downloads enabled will see macOS Sierra start to download automatically, but it will not install without express user permission. >> Which means many more people will get in trouble. |
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Pharo runs fine on MacOS Sierra , I did get a blank window with a download I made during El Capitan but re downloading latest vm and image works flawlessly On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 11:07 AM Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
this one:
should be working fine. Still that “old VM” message, and some problems related to how the versions string are handled now, but I think is doing ok. Also, still no signing… We will do that soon :) Esteban
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Do we use this the CI? Are the downloadable artefacts being build with it?
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In reply to this post by EstebanLM
estaban may be we should add a message on the web site. Pay attention we are working on it and this vm should be working fine but it is not officially released yet.
Le 4/10/16 à 11:17, Esteban Lorenzano a
écrit :
this one: |
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In reply to this post by Max Leske
Do we have a Cog VM that works on Sierra yet? I downloaded 547 from https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/view/5.0-VM-Legacy/job/PharoVM/Architecture=32,Slave=vm-builder-mac/ . The application window opened, but the contents were all white (e.g. the World never appeared)
Cheers,
Sean |
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the regular download by zeroconf should give you an usable VM.
Those CI jobs are not the official place where to take VMs… and they do not build the actual branch for the moment. In fact, I will disable the jobs because there is no point on keep then running atm and people got confused. Esteban > On 10 Nov 2016, at 00:56, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Max Leske wrote >> on Sierra... If you need a Cog VM > > Do we have a Cog VM that works on Sierra yet? I downloaded 547 from > https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/view/5.0-VM-Legacy/job/PharoVM/Architecture=32,Slave=vm-builder-mac/ > . The application window opened, but the contents were all white (e.g. the > World never appeared) > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/macOS-Sierra-support-tp4917181p4922435.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > |
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That worked - thanks! Great idea :)
Cheers,
Sean |
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Can someone put a note to the website (http://pharo.org/download)? It is frustrating for users to follow the link to http://files.pharo.org/platform/Pharo5.0-mac.zip from there and get a defunct Pharo installation.
Yes, this VM works well :) |
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