minutes from Nov 30, 2007 developer conference call/meeting

We discussed the proposed development/interoperability roadmap
and handed out responsibility for items on the roadmap.

Synopsis:

----------------------


ITEM: XML space description

LEAD: David A. Smith

DESCRIPTION:
A common space description file format in XML to allow the open
source and QWAQ clients to read stored copies of each other's worlds.
Minimizing the size of objects being replicated is important so that
spaces may be saved compactly and new user joining the replicated
space can do so quickly.

In practice this means meshes and textures should be referred to by
name in the replicated space, and fetched by each client
independently of joining the space. By fetching these large objects
independently of the replicated space, clients can maintain locally
cached copies which speeds joining the space. An XML description of
the space also simplifies programatically generating space
descriptions, and aids in integration with various search engine
technologies.

Moreover, an XML-based space description also allows for the
possibility of a croquet browser written in another language or based
on a different code base. However, this implies changes to the
rendering engine since we would be moving textures/mesh definitions
outside the replicated space. QWAQ's forums have shown that this
approach has many virtues. Ultimately we might want to use an
extended version of Collada - but the first step would be to align
the Open source and QWAQ code bases so we can read each other's world
definitions.

-----------------


ITEM: Robust Jabber client:

LEAD: Mark McCahill

DESCRIPTION:
Improve current Jabber client to include SSL TLS support
(perhaps via OpenSSL plugin?). This work can happen in the open
source arena and is relatively independent of changes to space
description formats.

The current Jabber client does not support SSL transport level security
and needs to - since most Jabber servers require SSL TLS. Supporting an
open standard IM/Chat is a key for interoperability with the chat world,
and ideally would allow cross world chat with other environments
(such as Second Life) should those worlds decide to do the right
thing and support a standards based chat protocol for inter world
chatting. We also need this work so that we can advertise presence
outside Croquet using an open standards-base approach

----------------------


ITEM: Message router/timestamper as an Apache plugin

LEAD: Liz Wendland

DESCRIPTION:

The microserver is a message router/timestamper for sites that want a
standalone message router to augment the croquet client built-in
router. We can leverage the support that the apache server codebase
has by providing an option to externalize the message router function.

This also opens the possibility of simplifying access control/
authentication integration with existing enterprise AuthN/AuthZ
systems. By creating a microserver that plays in the apache space we
can leverage existing Apache web server authentication/access control
modules.


----------------------
ITEM: Plugin API for extending browser/space functionality

LEAD: Andreas Raab

DESCRIPTION:

We expect that various browsers will extend functionality of spaces
by adding new features. We need a standard way to describe these
plugins that allows less well endowed clients to at least display a
placeholder for content they cannot render and point to how to get
the required extension. This is analogous to plugins for web pages.

Note that these plugins may affect both the replicated space -and-
the non-replicated inside-the-helmet user interface of a croquet
client.


----------------------
ITEM: Scripting for user-defined behaviors

LEAD: ????

DESCRIPTION:

Scripting for user-defined behaviors: Javascript, Lua, panels, roll-
your-own, and all that jazz.

If we have a common XML format for describing spaces we have half of
what we need. The other half is a common way of describing user-
created behaviors, so a scripting language - like lua or javascript -
would allow for actions to be stored along with models and textures.
This implies that browsers will all need to support the scripting
language.


----------------------
ITEM: Interoperable avatar definitions

LEAD: ????

DESCRIPTION:

Users of social spaces care a lot about their representation in-world.
We need to converge on avatar standards so that each implementation
of croquet is not re-inventing this particular wheel. That, and a
good babyfur avatar should be a lifetime investment.


=============================================================



----------text chat log--------

Mark has arrived (at 22:10:39 2007-11-29)

Mark has arrived (at 02:29:36)

John Dougan has arrived (at 02:30:55)

John Dougan has left (at 02:34:30)

TimWang has arrived (at 02:57:00)

Mark (at 02:57:21)
hi TIm

TimWang (at 02:57:23)
Hi Mark

TimWang (at 02:57:26)
:)

Mark (at 02:57:43)
I giving people accounts - brb

TimWang (at 02:57:48)
ok

Mark (at 02:57:53)
everyojne waits till the last minute for some reason

TimWang (at 02:58:05)
haha

Peter has arrived (at 03:12:02)

DaveFaught has arrived (at 03:12:44)

Peter (at 03:12:50)
hey everyone

Darius has arrived (at 03:13:39)

TimWang (at 03:13:57)
Hi Peter, Hi Dave

Peter (at 03:14:09)
hi

DaveFaught (at 03:14:20)
hi

jeremykemp has arrived (at 03:14:24)

DaveFaught (at 03:14:35)
hi

TimWang (at 03:14:50)
Hi Jeremy

Darius (at 03:15:00)
Hi

jeremykemp (at 03:15:08)
Hello there - Jeremy Kemp with San Jose State University (Second Life  
education specialist)

Peter (at 03:15:31)
hi Jeremy

jeremykemp (at 03:15:44)
http://slisweb.sjsu.edu/people/faculty/kempj/kempj.php

Mark (at 03:15:57)
ok, I'm back

Mark (at 03:16:17)
hopefully David Smith will make it here...

jeremykemp (at 03:18:12)
sorry (is there audio?)

Mark (at 03:18:19)
there can be

Craig has arrived (at 03:18:33)

Mark (at 03:18:36)
but for some reason we gravitate to text while waiting for people

Mark (at 03:18:54)
then end up with two converstaions (one text, one audio)

Howard has arrived (at 03:18:58)

Mark (at 03:19:17)
Hey Howard

jeremykemp has left (at 03:19:18)

Craig (at 03:19:29)
Hi, Craig from FXPAL

jeremykemp has arrived (at 03:19:57)

Mark (at 03:20:01)
I'm going to give it 5 more minutes for stragglers

John Dougan has arrived (at 03:20:36)

TimWang (at 03:21:07)
How do you turn off the 3D sound?

Peter (at 03:22:23)
take a look at the Tools>Preferences panel

Peter (at 03:22:38)
there is a checkbox for OpenAL

TimWang (at 03:23:01)
thank you, much better.

John Dougan has left (at 03:23:26)

Craig (at 03:26:31)
(yeah, I have to leave at the top of the hour, too)

John Dougan has arrived (at 03:27:58)

andreas has arrived (at 03:29:55)

DaveFaught has arrived (at 03:33:02)

DaveFaught has left (at 03:33:03)

The Dude has arrived (at 03:34:07)

Darius (at 03:37:35)
And let Apache display inworld screen shots on Apache hosted web pages.

liz has arrived (at 03:37:38)

jeremykemp (at 03:49:03)
let me ENTHUSIASTICALLY support this perspective of putting out  
trials to attract community

jeremykemp (at 03:51:33)
being a pitiful newbie - is this a venue to discuss securing grant  
funding to incentivise coding support?

Howard (at 03:51:46)
sure!

jeremykemp (at 03:51:59)
ehe

jeremykemp (at 03:52:11)
check

Peter (at 03:55:18)
Here is a silly trailer one of our students put together for out  
Spanish pragmatics application: http://croquet.umn.edu

Peter (at 03:55:52)
links are on the sidebar on the left

jeremykemp (at 03:58:29)
two issues that come to mind - does it support commerce (use  
permissions)? Does it support gravity interactions (gaming physics)?

MikeKlein has arrived (at 03:58:46)

jeremykemp (at 04:03:28)
(Sorry - another newbie ??) Is anyone here working with IBM for  
interoperable avatar packages?

jeremykemp (at 04:05:31)
yes yes yes - Linden lab is hamstrung by commerce

jeremykemp (at 04:06:49)
You are well positioned to be a leader in this....

DaveFaught (at 04:08:01)
like ploppSL

Peter (at 04:08:35)
and why restrict to humanoid avatars?

DaveFaught (at 04:08:45)
low poly = high performance

Mark (at 04:08:50)
I want to be a babyfur

John Dougan (at 04:09:38)
Humanoid Avatars == most important for most people.  And Linden was  
doing the most imporetant 80% first

jeremykemp (at 04:10:33)
maybe propose: Croquet avatar is exportable to Second Life. Then this  
setting becomes like a Reg API website. Croquet as pre-flight system.

MikeKlein (at 04:10:40)
consistent model for trading & remixing avatar resources

jeremykemp has left (at 04:11:22)

jeremykemp has arrived (at 04:12:20)

jeremykemp (at 04:12:59)
http://www.emergingonlinelearningtechnology.org/cfp/index.php/eta/ 
eta2008/schedConf/cfp

DaveFaught (at 04:13:32)
i would like to propose a kind of selective replication where, for  
example, I could participate in only the text chart, or only the chat  
and voice

jeremykemp (at 04:14:23)
see my sloodle.org
  for a Moodle version of this with Second life...

MikeKlein (at 04:14:48)
Could you
use ImageSegments for selective replication?

jeremykemp (at 04:15:49)
Voice Shy...

DaveFaught (at 04:16:02)
They are part of Squeak Projects

jeremykemp (at 04:16:18)
informative subtext

The Dude has left (at 04:17:02)

Mark has left (at 04:17:05)

Howard has left (at 04:17:05)

andreas has left (at 04:17:08)

DaveFaught has left (at 04:17:41)

Craig (at 04:17:53)
(back)

MikeKlein (at 04:21:14)
Mike has no mike ;-)

MikeKlein (at 04:21:56)
I get a weird zoom when my avatar occupies a position near JohnDougan's

MikeKlein (at 04:23:40)
actually all of the other
avatars

Darius (at 04:24:48)
And the commercial part of Croquet might mean more reveniew for  
Linden Labs more that Open Source.

Darius (at 04:25:28)
bye

jeremykemp has left (at 04:25:31)

Darius (at 04:26:26)
what made it so hard?

Darius (at 04:27:13)
me too.

Darius (at 04:29:34)
What demo?

MikeKlein has left (at 04:30:46)

Craig (at 04:31:42)
oh, just the usual stuff when doing a VM port, mostly chasing down  
compiler and linker settings. Not a lot of thought, just a lot of  
grunt work

Craig (at 04:32:03)
this is a demo of using the Phidgets system for phyical i/o with Croquet

liz has left (at 04:32:05)

Darius (at 04:32:06)
hmmm . OK.

TimWang has left (at 04:32:27)

Peter has left (at 04:32:31)

MikeKlein has arrived (at 04:33:28)

Darius (at 04:34:53)
ver. 21 is nicer too.

Craig (at 04:35:09)
yeah, that's what I usually use

Darius (at 04:35:16)
good point, mike.

Darius (at 04:36:43)
phidgets doesn't sound programmable so the PC must be in constant  
communication?

Craig (at 04:40:31)
right, over USB

Craig (at 04:40:41)
the Make controller seems more programmable

Craig (at 04:40:46)
I'll be trying that too

Darius (at 04:41:14)
Hmmm. Hard to make a robot that has to carry a PC around.

Craig (at 04:41:33)
sure, this is for prototyping peripherals, pretty much

Craig (at 04:41:48)
the Make controller seems like the thing for autonomous stuff

Darius (at 04:42:04)
Or several avatar
camera recordings at the same time.


---------



Mark P. McCahill
Architect, Computing Systems
Duke University - Office of Information Technology
334 Blackwell Street, Suite 2107
Durham, North Carolina 27701
USA

[hidden email]
+1 919-724-0708  (mobile)
+1 929 668 2964  (fax)

On Thu, Dec 13, 2007 at 03:57:40PM -0500, Mark P. McCahill wrote:
> We discussed the proposed development/interoperability roadmap
> and handed out responsibility for items on the roadmap.

From the log at the end of, this appears to have been a
relatively open meeting in a public online space. Where/When are
these meetings held, and how can I participate?

I would also like to point out again that there has been a
croquet chat channel for a while on irc.freenode.net, but it is
not being a very useful resource so far, as it hosts noobs
and admirers, but no one to help us understand more about
Croquet or participate. If you want to talk about croquet, and
if you don't mind noobs, please come by!

I believe I completely miss the point of this agenda item. What
is a Browser? Isn't squeak already the tool used to describe
object functionality?

--
Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/
Help improve Squeak Documentation: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/808

On Thu, Dec 13, 2007 at 10:58:38PM -0700, Matthew Fulmer wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 13, 2007 at 03:57:40PM -0500, Mark P. McCahill wrote:
> > We discussed the proposed development/interoperability roadmap
> > and handed out responsibility for items on the roadmap.
>
> From the log at the end of, this appears to have been a
> relatively open meeting in a public online space. Where/When are
> these meetings held, and how can I participate?

Sorry. I see this is answered in the very next email.

--
Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/
Help improve Squeak Documentation: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/808

On Dec 13, 2007, at 9:58 PM, Matthew Fulmer wrote:
>
> I would also like to point out again that there has been a
> croquet chat channel for a while on irc.freenode.net, but it is
> not being a very useful resource so far, as it hosts noobs
> and admirers, but no one to help us understand more about
> Croquet or participate. If you want to talk about croquet, and
> if you don't mind noobs, please come by!
>

As a noob and admirer, I say 'hear, hear!'

Speaking only for myself, I came of age professionally with  
newsgroups and email. IRC just isn't part of my culture. Honestly, I  
don't even know how to start, and I'm curmudgeon enough not to even  
want to know.

As far as I'm concerned, we're all noobs, as this is invention in  
real-time.

On Dec 14, 2007, at 12:34 AM, Daniel Hengeveld wrote:

Am 14.12.2007 um 15:12 schrieb Howard Stearns:

> Speaking only for myself, I came of age professionally with  
> newsgroups and email. IRC just isn't part of my culture.

I introduced myself to IRC three years ago when I joined the Scribus  
team. After a very short time I got used to it and hang out there  
most of the time.

Advantages compared to news/mail:
* more personal
* facilitates smalltalk for socializing
* instant response (if there's someone else there)

Advantages compared to Qwaq Forums and similar:
* client needs less resources
* possible to catch up on discussions (check the text log in the  
minutes: a lot of information is missing. Even if the audio was  
available, too, it would take a lot of time to listen to it and match  
it to the text log)

Challenges of IRC:
* establish a channel etiquette so everyone feels comfortable
* get enough people to join so you can have meaningful discussions
* one needs practice to follow discussions when several people are  
discussing different topics


> Honestly, I don't even know how to start,

Much easier than setting up Croquet :-)
Just download a suitable client, start it, point it to  
irc.freenode.net and join the channel #croquet.

Hm, ok, there are some subtleties you want to learn about later.  
Mostly acronyms and some IRC commands for registering and stuff.

> and I'm curmudgeon enough not to even want to know.


Ah, an attitude... :-)
Knowledge never hurts, but of course it's up to you if you want to  
try it.
TBH, I've been thinking along similar lines for 15 years, seeing no  
use in IRC.
But I haven't regretted learning it three years ago.

Just my € 0.02

/Andreas

IRC is a tool, in some cases it works well, in some, not so much.  Having to
use the keyboard for typing/talking means you multitask while chatting, which
kind of blows.  But VOIP is a mess with 45 people, IRC works just fine on that
scale.  I personally am looking forward to having a persistent virtual world
to interact in.  I have no strong preference for the specifics.

Janet

On Dec 14, 2007 9:42 AM, Andreas Vox <[hidden email]> wrote:

Matthew,

You provided me some useful links when I came by the other day, but it's
taking me some time to go through them.  I hope other experienced
developers start showing up there as well.

Thanks,

Janet


On Dec 13, 2007 11:58 PM, Matthew Fulmer <[hidden email]> wrote: