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Steve Wirts

multiple native windows

Besides programming effort, is there a reason why squeak/pharo shouldn't consider going to a GUI model that includes real multiple native windows?

I'm not a c/c++ programmer and wouldn't know where to begin with that piece, but inside of smalltalk it seems it wouldn't be all that difficult of a refactoring.

I only bring this up as this would put pharo/squeak more in line with many other conventional languages (with respect to user interfaces), and get it "back in the game" so to speak for when technologies are being considered for business solutions.

You could include in this 1) Native support for drag and drop and 2) support for embedded native controls. Something like SWT and Jide now both support.

Sorry if I've overlooked something with this and the con is obvious.

thanks
sw

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Stéphane Ducasse

Re: multiple native windows

> Besides programming effort, is there a reason why squeak/pharo
> shouldn't consider going to a GUI model that includes real multiple
> native windows?

I would love to have that we should have a look at ffenestria and fix
it.
So this is just that somebody should do it.

> I'm not a c/c++ programmer and wouldn't know where to begin with
> that piece, but inside of smalltalk it seems it wouldn't be all that
> difficult of a refactoring.
>
> I only bring this up as this would put pharo/squeak more in line
> with many other conventional languages (with respect to user
> interfaces), and get it "back in the game" so to speak for when
> technologies are being considered for business solutions.
>
> You could include in this 1) Native support for drag and drop and 2)
> support for embedded native controls. Something like SWT and Jide
> now both support.
>
> Sorry if I've overlooked something with this and the con is obvious.
>
> thanks
> sw

Stef

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Michael Rueger-6

Re: multiple native windows

In reply to this post by Steve Wirts

Steve Wirts wrote:
> Besides programming effort, is there a reason why squeak/pharo shouldn't
> consider going to a GUI model that includes real multiple native windows?

Yes, Morphic ;-)
Would be pretty hard to make it work with multiple windows. At least
that's the consensus...

The infrastructure is basically in place and has been used for
prototypes. Also the GTK bindings and Newspeak use native windows (I
think?).

Michael

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Damien Cassou

Re: multiple native windows

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Michael Rueger<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Also the GTK bindings and Newspeak use native windows (I
> think?).

Newspeak uses either native or morphic windows, depending on the
wishes of the user.

--
Damien Cassou
http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

"Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
popular by not having them." James Iry

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Steve Wirts

Re: multiple native windows

If the primitives existed in pharo that would allow someone to create and control native windows, I would be more than happy to take the time to try and massage morphic into working cleanly/elegantly with multiple windows.

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Damien Cassou <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Michael Rueger<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Also the GTK bindings and Newspeak use native windows (I
> think?).

Newspeak uses either native or morphic windows, depending on the
wishes of the user.

--
Damien Cassou
http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

"Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
popular by not having them." James Iry

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Mariano Martinez Peck

Re: multiple native windows

Perhaps you can join forces with the rest of the present alternatives. For example, squeakgtk

I think there is a lot of people that wants native windows so that being able to create desktop applications.

Cheers,

Mariano

2009/6/11 Steve Wirts <[hidden email]>

If the primitives existed in pharo that would allow someone to create and control native windows, I would be more than happy to take the time to try and massage morphic into working cleanly/elegantly with multiple windows.

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Damien Cassou <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Michael Rueger<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Also the GTK bindings and Newspeak use native windows (I
> think?).

Newspeak uses either native or morphic windows, depending on the
wishes of the user.

--
Damien Cassou
http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

"Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
popular by not having them." James Iry

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Alexandre Bergel

Re: multiple native windows

In reply to this post by Steve Wirts

I used Visualworks and Squeak, and frankly, I prefer to have embedded
morphic windows in a unique native window, as it is now in Pharo.
Application switching is easier in my opinion and I do not feel a need
to have an email clients between two code browsers.
As the discussion on save and quit testified, people have radically
different habits when programming. Even for simple things.
Interesting.

Cheers,
Alexandre

On 11 Jun 2009, at 10:58, Steve Wirts wrote:

> If the primitives existed in pharo that would allow someone to
> create and control native windows, I would be more than happy to
> take the time to try and massage morphic into working cleanly/
> elegantly with multiple windows.
>
> On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Damien Cassou <[hidden email]
> > wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Michael Rueger<[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > Also the GTK bindings and Newspeak use native windows (I
> > think?).
>
> Newspeak uses either native or morphic windows, depending on the
> wishes of the user.
>
> --
> Damien Cassou
> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
>
> "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
> popular by not having them." James Iry
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

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Michael Rueger-6

Re: multiple native windows

Alexandre Bergel wrote:
> I used Visualworks and Squeak, and frankly, I prefer to have embedded
> morphic windows in a unique native window, as it is now in Pharo.
> Application switching is easier in my opinion and I do not feel a need
> to have an email clients between two code browsers.
> As the discussion on save and quit testified, people have radically
> different habits when programming. Even for simple things.
> Interesting.

Indeed. Alos worth noting that the Adobe suite of products basically
uses the Squeak mode.
But, there is still a case for native windows and if only for dialog
boxes ;-)
Usage across multiple screens is another argument for having the
technical ability for multiple windows.

Michael

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Steve Wirts

Re: multiple native windows

In reply to this post by Mariano Martinez Peck

Thanks Mariano, I wasn't aware of squeakgtk. It looks like this project (a large project) is trying to create a toolkit of heavyweight controls for squeakers. Something similar to wxSqueak. I'm thinking of something different; all the widget implementation should be left to pharo, morphic is great, and there already exists lots of gui code. I believe the only thing we would need would be the ability create and control a native window(decorated and undecorated), not every kind of native widget.

2009/6/11 Mariano Martinez Peck <[hidden email]>

Perhaps you can join forces with the rest of the present alternatives. For example, squeakgtk

I think there is a lot of people that wants native windows so that being able to create desktop applications.

Cheers,

Mariano

2009/6/11 Steve Wirts <[hidden email]>

If the primitives existed in pharo that would allow someone to create and control native windows, I would be more than happy to take the time to try and massage morphic into working cleanly/elegantly with multiple windows.

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Damien Cassou <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Michael Rueger<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Also the GTK bindings and Newspeak use native windows (I
> think?).

Newspeak uses either native or morphic windows, depending on the
wishes of the user.

--
Damien Cassou
http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

"Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
popular by not having them." James Iry

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Alexandre Bergel

Re: multiple native windows

In reply to this post by Michael Rueger-6

> Indeed. Alos worth noting that the Adobe suite of products basically
> uses the Squeak mode.
> But, there is still a case for native windows and if only for dialog
> boxes ;-)
> Usage across multiple screens is another argument for having the
> technical ability for multiple windows.

Exactly, having native windows is something important. However, I
think one should use to have pharo windows gathered or not.

Cheers,
Alexandre
--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

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Steve Wirts

Re: multiple native windows

In reply to this post by Alexandre Bergel

Would it be ok if this was configurable via a user preference, meaning pharo supported both?
A VisualWorks multiple-native-window capability would open up the possibility of creating a different class of applications. Alot of my work revolves around integration with legacy systems. Having a smalltalk with multiple native windows would allow me to more seamlessly introduce it into the world of tools at my company.

thanks
sw

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]> wrote:

I used Visualworks and Squeak, and frankly, I prefer to have embedded
morphic windows in a unique native window, as it is now in Pharo.
Application switching is easier in my opinion and I do not feel a need
to have an email clients between two code browsers.
As the discussion on save and quit testified, people have radically
different habits when programming. Even for simple things.
Interesting.

Cheers,
Alexandre

On 11 Jun 2009, at 10:58, Steve Wirts wrote:

> If the primitives existed in pharo that would allow someone to
> create and control native windows, I would be more than happy to
> take the time to try and massage morphic into working cleanly/
> elegantly with multiple windows.
>
> On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Damien Cassou <[hidden email]
> > wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Michael Rueger<[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > Also the GTK bindings and Newspeak use native windows (I
> > think?).
>
> Newspeak uses either native or morphic windows, depending on the
> wishes of the user.
>
> --
> Damien Cassou
> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
>
> "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
> popular by not having them." James Iry
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

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Alexandre Bergel

Re: multiple native windows

In Newspeak, a dedicated icon enable to switch mode. Quite convenient.

Cheers,
Alexandre

On 11 Jun 2009, at 12:02, Steve Wirts wrote:

> Would it be ok if this was configurable via a user preference,
> meaning pharo supported both?
> A VisualWorks multiple-native-window capability would open up the
> possibility of creating a different class of applications. Alot of
> my work revolves around integration with legacy systems. Having a
> smalltalk with multiple native windows would allow me to more
> seamlessly introduce it into the world of tools at my company.
>
> thanks
> sw
>
> On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]
> > wrote:
>
> I used Visualworks and Squeak, and frankly, I prefer to have embedded
> morphic windows in a unique native window, as it is now in Pharo.
> Application switching is easier in my opinion and I do not feel a need
> to have an email clients between two code browsers.
> As the discussion on save and quit testified, people have radically
> different habits when programming. Even for simple things.
> Interesting.
>
> Cheers,
> Alexandre
>
>
> On 11 Jun 2009, at 10:58, Steve Wirts wrote:
>
> > If the primitives existed in pharo that would allow someone to
> > create and control native windows, I would be more than happy to
> > take the time to try and massage morphic into working cleanly/
> > elegantly with multiple windows.
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Damien Cassou <[hidden email]
> > > wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Michael Rueger<[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > Also the GTK bindings and Newspeak use native windows (I
> > > think?).
> >
> > Newspeak uses either native or morphic windows, depending on the
> > wishes of the user.
> >
> > --
> > Damien Cassou
> > http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
> >
> > "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
> > popular by not having them." James Iry
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Pharo-project mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Pharo-project mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
> --
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Stéphane Ducasse

Re: multiple native windows

In reply to this post by Steve Wirts

> Would it be ok if this was configurable via a user preference,
> meaning pharo supported both?

sure.

> A VisualWorks multiple-native-window capability would open up the
> possibility of creating a different class of applications. Alot of
> my work revolves around integration with legacy systems. Having a
> smalltalk with multiple native windows would allow me to more
> seamlessly introduce it into the world of tools at my company.

I really think that if somebody would work on ffenestria we would
integrate it.

>
>
> thanks
> sw
>
> On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]
> > wrote:
>
> I used Visualworks and Squeak, and frankly, I prefer to have embedded
> morphic windows in a unique native window, as it is now in Pharo.
> Application switching is easier in my opinion and I do not feel a need
> to have an email clients between two code browsers.
> As the discussion on save and quit testified, people have radically
> different habits when programming. Even for simple things.
> Interesting.
>
> Cheers,
> Alexandre
>
>
> On 11 Jun 2009, at 10:58, Steve Wirts wrote:
>
> > If the primitives existed in pharo that would allow someone to
> > create and control native windows, I would be more than happy to
> > take the time to try and massage morphic into working cleanly/
> > elegantly with multiple windows.
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Damien Cassou <[hidden email]
> > > wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Michael Rueger<[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > Also the GTK bindings and Newspeak use native windows (I
> > > think?).
> >
> > Newspeak uses either native or morphic windows, depending on the
> > wishes of the user.
> >
> > --
> > Damien Cassou
> > http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
> >
> > "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
> > popular by not having them." James Iry
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Pharo-project mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Pharo-project mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
> --
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

_______________________________________________
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Mariano Martinez Peck

Re: multiple native windows

what is ffenestria? links?

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 3:45 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Would it be ok if this was configurable via a user preference,
> meaning pharo supported both?

sure.

> A VisualWorks multiple-native-window capability would open up the
> possibility of creating a different class of applications. Alot of
> my work revolves around integration with legacy systems. Having a
> smalltalk with multiple native windows would allow me to more
> seamlessly introduce it into the world of tools at my company.

I really think that if somebody would work on ffenestria we would
integrate it.

>
>
> thanks
> sw
>
> On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]
> > wrote:
>
> I used Visualworks and Squeak, and frankly, I prefer to have embedded
> morphic windows in a unique native window, as it is now in Pharo.
> Application switching is easier in my opinion and I do not feel a need
> to have an email clients between two code browsers.
> As the discussion on save and quit testified, people have radically
> different habits when programming. Even for simple things.
> Interesting.
>
> Cheers,
> Alexandre
>
>
> On 11 Jun 2009, at 10:58, Steve Wirts wrote:
>
> > If the primitives existed in pharo that would allow someone to
> > create and control native windows, I would be more than happy to
> > take the time to try and massage morphic into working cleanly/
> > elegantly with multiple windows.
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Damien Cassou <[hidden email]
> > > wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Michael Rueger<[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > Also the GTK bindings and Newspeak use native windows (I
> > > think?).
> >
> > Newspeak uses either native or morphic windows, depending on the
> > wishes of the user.
> >
> > --
> > Damien Cassou
> > http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
> >
> > "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
> > popular by not having them." James Iry
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Pharo-project mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Pharo-project mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
> --
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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Steve Wirts

Re: multiple native windows

I thought it was someone's name at first :)

http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3862

This looks right to me, thanks for the heads up stef. I don't see where there is any code available however. A concrete starting point might be with vm primitives for creating and controlling native windows; once these are in place, it is a matter of creating a small pharo codebase to manage the OS resources(ffenestria), and drawing to them through primitives via the GraphicsContext (bitblitting of course). I would think that most everything in morphic would continue to work as is.

does this make sense?

If the primitives existed, I could help out, but not being a c/c++ programmer I am at a disadvantage here.

2009/6/11 Mariano Martinez Peck <[hidden email]>

what is ffenestria? links?

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 3:45 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Would it be ok if this was configurable via a user preference,
> meaning pharo supported both?

sure.

> A VisualWorks multiple-native-window capability would open up the
> possibility of creating a different class of applications. Alot of
> my work revolves around integration with legacy systems. Having a
> smalltalk with multiple native windows would allow me to more
> seamlessly introduce it into the world of tools at my company.

I really think that if somebody would work on ffenestria we would
integrate it.

>
>
> thanks
> sw
>
> On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]
> > wrote:
>
> I used Visualworks and Squeak, and frankly, I prefer to have embedded
> morphic windows in a unique native window, as it is now in Pharo.
> Application switching is easier in my opinion and I do not feel a need
> to have an email clients between two code browsers.
> As the discussion on save and quit testified, people have radically
> different habits when programming. Even for simple things.
> Interesting.
>
> Cheers,
> Alexandre
>
>
> On 11 Jun 2009, at 10:58, Steve Wirts wrote:
>
> > If the primitives existed in pharo that would allow someone to
> > create and control native windows, I would be more than happy to
> > take the time to try and massage morphic into working cleanly/
> > elegantly with multiple windows.
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Damien Cassou <[hidden email]
> > > wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Michael Rueger<[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > Also the GTK bindings and Newspeak use native windows (I
> > > think?).
> >
> > Newspeak uses either native or morphic windows, depending on the
> > wishes of the user.
> >
> > --
> > Damien Cassou
> > http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
> >
> > "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
> > popular by not having them." James Iry
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Pharo-project mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Pharo-project mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
> --
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Stéphane Ducasse

Re: multiple native windows

On Jun 11, 2009, at 8:27 PM, Steve Wirts wrote:

> I thought it was someone's name at first :)
>
> http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3862
>
> This looks right to me, thanks for the heads up stef. I don't see
> where there is any code available however. A concrete starting
> point might be with vm primitives for creating and controlling
> native windows; once these are in place, it is a matter of creating
> a small pharo codebase to manage the OS resources(ffenestria), and
> drawing to them through primitives via the GraphicsContext
> (bitblitting of course). I would think that most everything in
> morphic would continue to work as is.
>
> does this make sense?
>
> If the primitives existed, I could help out, but not being a c/c++
> programmer I am at a disadvantage here.
>
>
> 2009/6/11 Mariano Martinez Peck <[hidden email]>
> what is ffenestria? links?
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 3:45 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]
> > wrote:
>
>
> > Would it be ok if this was configurable via a user preference,
> > meaning pharo supported both?
>
> sure.
>
> > A VisualWorks multiple-native-window capability would open up the
> > possibility of creating a different class of applications. Alot of
> > my work revolves around integration with legacy systems. Having a
> > smalltalk with multiple native windows would allow me to more
> > seamlessly introduce it into the world of tools at my company.
>
> I really think that if somebody would work on ffenestria we would
> integrate it.
>
> >
> >
> > thanks
> > sw
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]
> > > wrote:
> >
> > I used Visualworks and Squeak, and frankly, I prefer to have
> embedded
> > morphic windows in a unique native window, as it is now in Pharo.
> > Application switching is easier in my opinion and I do not feel a
> need
> > to have an email clients between two code browsers.
> > As the discussion on save and quit testified, people have radically
> > different habits when programming. Even for simple things.
> > Interesting.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Alexandre
> >
> >
> > On 11 Jun 2009, at 10:58, Steve Wirts wrote:
> >
> > > If the primitives existed in pharo that would allow someone to
> > > create and control native windows, I would be more than happy to
> > > take the time to try and massage morphic into working cleanly/
> > > elegantly with multiple windows.
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Damien Cassou <[hidden email]
> > > > wrote:
> > > On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Michael Rueger<[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Also the GTK bindings and Newspeak use native windows (I
> > > > think?).
> > >
> > > Newspeak uses either native or morphic windows, depending on the
> > > wishes of the user.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Damien Cassou
> > > http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
> > >
> > > "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
> > > popular by not having them." James Iry
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Pharo-project mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-
> project
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Pharo-project mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-
> project
> >
> > --
> > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
> > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Pharo-project mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Pharo-project mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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Ffenestri.zip (47K) Download Attachment

johnmci

Re: multiple native windows

I'll note the Ffenestri.zip has both the Ffenestri and the HostMenu os-
x logic in it.
You'll need to be careful and only integrate the Ffenestri logic since
the HostMenu logic
already was integrated into Pharo and was updated for the new sensor
logic so likely loading
the "HostMenus-Base.2.cs" for example will break your image.

On 11-Jun-09, at 11:35 AM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

> <Ffenestri.zip>

--
=
=
=
========================================================================
John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]> Twitter:
squeaker68882
Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
=
=
=
========================================================================

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Stéphane Ducasse

Re: multiple native windows

thanks john

stef

On Jun 11, 2009, at 8:40 PM, John M McIntosh wrote:

> I'll note the Ffenestri.zip has both the Ffenestri and the HostMenu
> os-
> x logic in it.
> You'll need to be careful and only integrate the Ffenestri logic since
> the HostMenu logic
> already was integrated into Pharo and was updated for the new sensor
> logic so likely loading
> the "HostMenus-Base.2.cs" for example will break your image.
>
> On 11-Jun-09, at 11:35 AM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
>
>> <Ffenestri.zip>
>
> --
> =
> =
> =
> =
> =
> ======================================================================
> John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]> Twitter:
> squeaker68882
> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://
> www.smalltalkconsulting.com
> =
> =
> =
> =
> =
> ======================================================================
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
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Carlos Crosetti-4

Re: multiple native windows

In reply to this post by Mariano Martinez Peck

I tried wxsqueak. Demos ar really good, and populating a grid with miliions of rows is very fast, however you have to turn your mind to build so defensively... I crashed the wm 3 to 4 times in around 4 hours - effort,m then I gave up.

-----Mensaje original-----
De: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]En nombre de Mariano Martinez Peck
Enviado el: Jueves, 11 de Junio de 2009 12:25 p.m.
Para: [hidden email]
Asunto: Re: [Pharo-project] multiple native windows

Perhaps you can join forces with the rest of the present alternatives. For example, squeakgtk

I think there is a lot of people that wants native windows so that being able to create desktop applications.

Cheers,

Mariano

2009/6/11 Steve Wirts <[hidden email]>

If the primitives existed in pharo that would allow someone to create and control native windows, I would be more than happy to take the time to try and massage morphic into working cleanly/elegantly with multiple windows.

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Damien Cassou <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Michael Rueger<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Also the GTK bindings and Newspeak use native windows (I
> think?).

Newspeak uses either native or morphic windows, depending on the
wishes of the user.

--
Damien Cassou
http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

"Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
popular by not having them." James Iry

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Igor Stasenko

Re: multiple native windows

In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse

2009/6/11 Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]>:

>
>
>> Would it be ok if this was configurable via a user preference,
>> meaning pharo supported both?
>
> sure.
>
>> A VisualWorks multiple-native-window capability would open up the
>> possibility of creating a different class of applications. Alot of
>> my work revolves around integration with legacy systems. Having a
>> smalltalk with multiple native windows would allow me to more
>> seamlessly introduce it into the world of tools at my company.
>
> I really think that if somebody would work on ffenestria we would
> integrate it.
>

Do you remember, i started it. Still i don't released anything. But
the idea is to move all windowing code into a new plugin , which will
have an inherent support of controlling native windows (& events) from
image side.

>>
>>
>> thanks
>> sw
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Alexandre Bergel <[hidden email]
>> > wrote:
>>
>> I used Visualworks and Squeak, and frankly, I prefer to have embedded
>> morphic windows in a unique native window, as it is now in Pharo.
>> Application switching is easier in my opinion and I do not feel a need
>> to have an email clients between two code browsers.
>> As the discussion on save and quit testified, people have radically
>> different habits when programming. Even for simple things.
>> Interesting.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Alexandre
>>
>>
>> On 11 Jun 2009, at 10:58, Steve Wirts wrote:
>>
>> > If the primitives existed in pharo that would allow someone to
>> > create and control native windows, I would be more than happy to
>> > take the time to try and massage morphic into working cleanly/
>> > elegantly with multiple windows.
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Damien Cassou <[hidden email]
>> > > wrote:
>> > On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Michael Rueger<[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> > > Also the GTK bindings and Newspeak use native windows (I
>> > > think?).
>> >
>> > Newspeak uses either native or morphic windows, depending on the
>> > wishes of the user.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Damien Cassou
>> > http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
>> >
>> > "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
>> > popular by not having them." James Iry
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Pharo-project mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Pharo-project mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>>
>> --
>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pharo-project mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pharo-project mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

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