some news

> Blog de Mark Shuttleworth:
>
> "Suffice it to say that after two days in the bunker, I think we  
> did brilliantly! I saw real bridges being built between Alan and  
> Guido, two great men who's collaboration might give us the tools to  
> teach logic from the earliest days of education (think of 5 year-
> olds writing code visually) through to high level instruction (we  
> all know how effective Python is for university type problems,  
> right?). Instead of fighting over turf or syntax, I sensed a  
> genuine willingness to synthesize the best work from both camps  
> into something that could have both Python's pop-culture widespread  
> appeal, and pedagogical foundations that build on years of Alan's  
> experience in the Squeak world. The mouse might yet become the  
> snake's strongest ally."

>about etoy in python....
>
>Begin forwarded message:
>
>>Blog de Mark Shuttleworth:
>>
>>"Suffice it to say that after two days in the bunker, I think we
>>did brilliantly! I saw real bridges being built between Alan and
>>Guido, two great men who's collaboration might give us the tools to
>>teach logic from the earliest days of education (think of 5 year- olds
>>writing code visually) through to high level instruction (we
>>all know how effective Python is for university type problems,
>>right?). Instead of fighting over turf or syntax, I sensed a
>>genuine willingness to synthesize the best work from both camps
>>into something that could have both Python's pop-culture widespread
>>appeal, and pedagogical foundations that build on years of Alan's
>>experience in the Squeak world. The mouse might yet become the
>>snake's strongest ally."
>

> That would be a very good thing if it could happen. Let's hope.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Alan
>
> -----------
>
> At 11:47 PM 4/19/2006, stéphane ducasse wrote:
>> about etoy in python....
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>>> Blog de Mark Shuttleworth:
>>>
>>> "Suffice it to say that after two days in the bunker, I think we
>>> did brilliantly! I saw real bridges being built between Alan and
>>> Guido, two great men who's collaboration might give us the tools to
>>> teach logic from the earliest days of education (think of 5 year-  
>>> olds writing code visually) through to high level instruction (we
>>> all know how effective Python is for university type problems,
>>> right?). Instead of fighting over turf or syntax, I sensed a
>>> genuine willingness to synthesize the best work from both camps
>>> into something that could have both Python's pop-culture widespread
>>> appeal, and pedagogical foundations that build on years of Alan's
>>> experience in the Squeak world. The mouse might yet become the
>>> snake's strongest ally."
>>
>
>
>

>Here's Guido van Rossum's take on it:
>
>         http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2006-April/006178.html
>
>- Bert -
>
>
>Am 20.04.2006 um 12:23 schrieb Alan Kay:
>
>>That would be a very good thing if it could happen. Let's hope.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>
>>Alan
>>
>>-----------
>>
>>At 11:47 PM 4/19/2006, stéphane ducasse wrote:
>>>about etoy in python....
>>>
>>>Begin forwarded message:
>>>
>>>>Blog de Mark Shuttleworth:
>>>>
>>>>"Suffice it to say that after two days in the bunker, I think we
>>>>did brilliantly! I saw real bridges being built between Alan and
>>>>Guido, two great men who's collaboration might give us the tools to
>>>>teach logic from the earliest days of education (think of 5 year-
>>>>olds writing code visually) through to high level instruction (we
>>>>all know how effective Python is for university type problems,
>>>>right?). Instead of fighting over turf or syntax, I sensed a
>>>>genuine willingness to synthesize the best work from both camps
>>>>into something that could have both Python's pop-culture widespread
>>>>appeal, and pedagogical foundations that build on years of Alan's
>>>>experience in the Squeak world. The mouse might yet become the
>>>>snake's strongest ally."
>>
>>
>
>

> Here's Guido van Rossum's take on it:
>
>     http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2006-April/006178.html
>
> - Bert -
>
>
> Am 20.04.2006 um 12:23 schrieb Alan Kay:
>
>> That would be a very good thing if it could happen. Let's hope.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Alan
>>
>> -----------
>>
>> At 11:47 PM 4/19/2006, stéphane ducasse wrote:
>>
>>> about etoy in python....
>>>
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>
>>>> Blog de Mark Shuttleworth:
>>>>
>>>> "Suffice it to say that after two days in the bunker, I think we
>>>> did brilliantly! I saw real bridges being built between Alan and
>>>> Guido, two great men who's collaboration might give us the tools to
>>>> teach logic from the earliest days of education (think of 5 year-
>>>> olds writing code visually) through to high level instruction (we
>>>> all know how effective Python is for university type problems,
>>>> right?). Instead of fighting over turf or syntax, I sensed a
>>>> genuine willingness to synthesize the best work from both camps
>>>> into something that could have both Python's pop-culture widespread
>>>> appeal, and pedagogical foundations that build on years of Alan's
>>>> experience in the Squeak world. The mouse might yet become the
>>>> snake's strongest ally."
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

>It's sad!
>
>The message suggests spending time and resources writing things already
>existing in Squeak. It's a shame as it could mean spending tight
>resources in things already done. Definitively this will not help
>children and one can not pretend doing so for them.
>
>Hilaire
>
>Bert Freudenberg a écrit :
> > Here's Guido van Rossum's take on it:
> >
> >     http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2006-April/006178.html
> >
> > - Bert -
> >
> >
> > Am 20.04.2006 um 12:23 schrieb Alan Kay:
> >
> >> That would be a very good thing if it could happen. Let's hope.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Alan
> >>
> >> -----------
> >>
> >> At 11:47 PM 4/19/2006, stéphane ducasse wrote:
> >>
> >>> about etoy in python....
> >>>
> >>> Begin forwarded message:
> >>>
> >>>> Blog de Mark Shuttleworth:
> >>>>
> >>>> "Suffice it to say that after two days in the bunker, I think we
> >>>> did brilliantly! I saw real bridges being built between Alan and
> >>>> Guido, two great men who's collaboration might give us the tools to
> >>>> teach logic from the earliest days of education (think of 5 year-
> >>>> olds writing code visually) through to high level instruction (we
> >>>> all know how effective Python is for university type problems,
> >>>> right?). Instead of fighting over turf or syntax, I sensed a
> >>>> genuine willingness to synthesize the best work from both camps
> >>>> into something that could have both Python's pop-culture widespread
> >>>> appeal, and pedagogical foundations that build on years of Alan's
> >>>> experience in the Squeak world. The mouse might yet become the
> >>>> snake's strongest ally."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >

> If you think about it the sad part is not really there.
> I do not believe that teaching etoy, logo, botsinc really help kids  
> learning maths as with a teacher: They have fun, they are emerged  
> into maths, they are not afraid which is already a lot.  Instead of  
> investing in language people should invest
> in contents: the right exercise to teach the right concepts.
> Right now what you see (even if etoy) is that they are really few  
> good material. I translated the book of Kim and some french  
> teachers were happy and then asked the killing question: the start  
> was fun so what where is the contents?
> Besides driving a car....(i pointed them to the graph basket ball  
> thingies but this is not enough).
> So if Ubuntu people think that they can substitute the writing and  
> development of a math curriculum, with
> a "come with me play stuff" developed in any language, this means  
> that this is a view of programmer (bold of course and full of
> enthousiasm) and I wish them success, because I think that the  
> contents in any format is more important.
>
> May living and being surrounded by teachers biaised my view of the  
> world...
>

> Hi Stef,
>
> just for understanding - you and Alan want to say that
>
> - everyone which is interested is welcomed for giving new ideas how  
> to make education, regardless of his favoured system/language
> - the implementation is not important - if someone want to use  
> python, to bring in his ideas he should do so
> - reinventing or reengineering always gives the chance to think  
> once more about it - from a new point of view. Nothing is really  
> ready.
>
>
> Something like this ?
>
> Regards
>
> Hans
>
> Am 22.04.2006 um 09:14 schrieb stéphane ducasse:
>
>> If you think about it the sad part is not really there.
>> I do not believe that teaching etoy, logo, botsinc really help  
>> kids learning maths as with a teacher: They have fun, they are  
>> emerged into maths, they are not afraid which is already a lot.  
>> Instead of investing in language people should invest
>> in contents: the right exercise to teach the right concepts.
>> Right now what you see (even if etoy) is that they are really few  
>> good material. I translated the book of Kim and some french  
>> teachers were happy and then asked the killing question: the start  
>> was fun so what where is the contents?
>> Besides driving a car....(i pointed them to the graph basket ball  
>> thingies but this is not enough).
>> So if Ubuntu people think that they can substitute the writing and  
>> development of a math curriculum, with
>> a "come with me play stuff" developed in any language, this means  
>> that this is a view of programmer (bold of course and full of
>> enthousiasm) and I wish them success, because I think that the  
>> contents in any format is more important.
>>
>> May living and being surrounded by teachers biaised my view of the  
>> world...
>>
>
>
>

> What hilaire and me said is that pushing the idea that python  
> people should reimplement squeak and etoys
> is not really cool for our community, let us face it! The point was  
> not to push your own language and fight for that, just to show
> the good aspects you have. So it was surprising and boring after a  
> while to hear Alan systematically saying that they should redo
> everything in Python. I feel that this is counter productive and  
> this is also why I say that if their goal is to teach maths to kids
> then they should focus on the contents not on the technology, so if  
> I would have the same goal I would build a set of cool tools:
> Kara, BostInc, Logo, Etoys, Karel, DrScheme, Python... and  
> encourage the building of contents and not to focus on
> a technology.
>
> I strongly believe that the effort we are doing to tighen up Squeak  
> will help people to build new environment and new environments for  
> kids too. For example the Pier logo wiki is a clear example of that.
> The work that Craig is doing can be the foundation for a really  
> tiny core on top of which we could build a complete new set
> of worlds, Sophie and Tweak are also really sexy and we should find  
> a way to integrate that (I'm really for helping moving
> Tweak when it is ready into Squeak if Tweakers want that).
>
> Then hearing argument that python is the way to go because they are  
> mainstream was fun (because you can always use an argument only  
> when it is ok to apply it to you), because C or Java are much more  
> mainstream.
>
> Now there are a lot of cool material already existing in Scheme for  
> example (Structure and interpretation of computer program, how to  
> design program to name a few with the excellent DrScheme  
> environment). Now of course you can reimplement everything in your  
> own cool language because this is the only one that is important  
> and mainstream.
>
>
>
>
>> Hi Stef,
>>
>> just for understanding - you and Alan want to say that
>>
>> - everyone which is interested is welcomed for giving new ideas  
>> how to make education, regardless of his favoured system/language
>> - the implementation is not important - if someone want to use  
>> python, to bring in his ideas he should do so
>> - reinventing or reengineering always gives the chance to think  
>> once more about it - from a new point of view. Nothing is really  
>> ready.
>>
>>
>> Something like this ?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Hans
>>
>> Am 22.04.2006 um 09:14 schrieb stéphane ducasse:
>>
>>> If you think about it the sad part is not really there.
>>> I do not believe that teaching etoy, logo, botsinc really help  
>>> kids learning maths as with a teacher: They have fun, they are  
>>> emerged into maths, they are not afraid which is already a lot.  
>>> Instead of investing in language people should invest
>>> in contents: the right exercise to teach the right concepts.
>>> Right now what you see (even if etoy) is that they are really few  
>>> good material. I translated the book of Kim and some french  
>>> teachers were happy and then asked the killing question: the  
>>> start was fun so what where is the contents?
>>> Besides driving a car....(i pointed them to the graph basket ball  
>>> thingies but this is not enough).
>>> So if Ubuntu people think that they can substitute the writing  
>>> and development of a math curriculum, with
>>> a "come with me play stuff" developed in any language, this means  
>>> that this is a view of programmer (bold of course and full of
>>> enthousiasm) and I wish them success, because I think that the  
>>> contents in any format is more important.
>>>
>>> May living and being surrounded by teachers biaised my view of  
>>> the world...
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

>If you think about it the sad part is not really there.
>I do not believe that teaching etoy, logo, botsinc really help kids
>learning maths as with a teacher: They have fun, they are emerged
>into maths, they are not afraid which is already a lot.  Instead of
>investing in language people should invest
>in contents: the right exercise to teach the right concepts.
>Right now what you see (even if etoy) is that they are really few
>good material. I translated the book of Kim and some french teachers
>were happy and then asked the killing question: the start was fun so
>what where is the contents?
>Besides driving a car....(i pointed them to the graph basket ball
>thingies but this is not enough).
>So if Ubuntu people think that they can substitute the writing and
>development of a math curriculum, with
>a "come with me play stuff" developed in any language, this means
>that this is a view of programmer (bold of course and full of
>enthousiasm) and I wish them success, because I think that the
>contents in any format is more important.
>
>May living and being surrounded by teachers biaised my view of the
>world...

>Hi Stef,
>
>just for understanding - you and Alan want to say that
>
>- everyone which is interested is welcomed for giving new ideas how
>to make education, regardless of his favoured system/language
>- the implementation is not important - if someone want to use
>python, to bring in his ideas he should do so
>- reinventing or reengineering always gives the chance to think  once
>more about it - from a new point of view. Nothing is really ready.
>
>
>Something like this ?
>
>Regards
>
>Hans
>
>Am 22.04.2006 um 09:14 schrieb stéphane ducasse:
>
>>If you think about it the sad part is not really there.
>>I do not believe that teaching etoy, logo, botsinc really help kids
>>learning maths as with a teacher: They have fun, they are emerged
>>into maths, they are not afraid which is already a lot.  Instead of
>>investing in language people should invest
>>in contents: the right exercise to teach the right concepts.
>>Right now what you see (even if etoy) is that they are really few
>>good material. I translated the book of Kim and some french
>>teachers were happy and then asked the killing question: the start
>>was fun so what where is the contents?
>>Besides driving a car....(i pointed them to the graph basket ball
>>thingies but this is not enough).
>>So if Ubuntu people think that they can substitute the writing and
>>development of a math curriculum, with
>>a "come with me play stuff" developed in any language, this means
>>that this is a view of programmer (bold of course and full of
>>enthousiasm) and I wish them success, because I think that the
>>contents in any format is more important.
>>
>>May living and being surrounded by teachers biaised my view of the
>>world...
>
>

>What hilaire and me said is that pushing the idea that python people
>should reimplement squeak and etoys
>is not really cool for our community, let us face it! The point was
>not to push your own language and fight for that, just to show
>the good aspects you have. So it was surprising and boring after a
>while to hear Alan systematically saying that they should redo
>everything in Python. I feel that this is counter productive and this
>is also why I say that if their goal is to teach maths to kids
>then they should focus on the contents not on the technology, so if I
>would have the same goal I would build a set of cool tools:
>Kara, BostInc, Logo, Etoys, Karel, DrScheme, Python... and encourage
>the building of contents and not to focus on
>a technology.
>
>I strongly believe that the effort we are doing to tighen up Squeak
>will help people to build new environment and new environments for
>kids too. For example the Pier logo wiki is a clear example of that.
>The work that Craig is doing can be the foundation for a really tiny
>core on top of which we could build a complete new set
>of worlds, Sophie and Tweak are also really sexy and we should find a
>way to integrate that (I'm really for helping moving
>Tweak when it is ready into Squeak if Tweakers want that).
>
>Then hearing argument that python is the way to go because they are
>mainstream was fun (because you can always use an argument only when
>it is ok to apply it to you), because C or Java are much more
>mainstream.
>
>Now there are a lot of cool material already existing in Scheme for
>example (Structure and interpretation of computer program, how to
>design program to name a few with the excellent DrScheme
>environment). Now of course you can reimplement everything in your
>own cool language because this is the only one that is important and
>mainstream.
>
>
>
>
>>Hi Stef,
>>
>>just for understanding - you and Alan want to say that
>>
>>- everyone which is interested is welcomed for giving new ideas how
>>to make education, regardless of his favoured system/language
>>- the implementation is not important - if someone want to use
>>python, to bring in his ideas he should do so
>>- reinventing or reengineering always gives the chance to think
>>once more about it - from a new point of view. Nothing is really
>>ready.
>>
>>
>>Something like this ?
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>Hans
>>
>>Am 22.04.2006 um 09:14 schrieb stéphane ducasse:
>>
>>>If you think about it the sad part is not really there.
>>>I do not believe that teaching etoy, logo, botsinc really help
>>>kids learning maths as with a teacher: They have fun, they are
>>>emerged into maths, they are not afraid which is already a lot.
>>>Instead of investing in language people should invest
>>>in contents: the right exercise to teach the right concepts.
>>>Right now what you see (even if etoy) is that they are really few
>>>good material. I translated the book of Kim and some french
>>>teachers were happy and then asked the killing question: the start
>>>was fun so what where is the contents?
>>>Besides driving a car....(i pointed them to the graph basket ball
>>>thingies but this is not enough).
>>>So if Ubuntu people think that they can substitute the writing and
>>>development of a math curriculum, with
>>>a "come with me play stuff" developed in any language, this means
>>>that this is a view of programmer (bold of course and full of
>>>enthousiasm) and I wish them success, because I think that the
>>>contents in any format is more important.
>>>
>>>May living and being surrounded by teachers biaised my view of the
>>>world...
>>
>>
>
>

>Hi Stef,
>
>now is much more clear, thanks :-) So my 2 cents:
>
>I think it is right that content is the important part. Content
>understood as knowledge elements (to teach) and their didactics.
>But it would not break "us" (the squeakers) to make content, if
>someone "out there" rethink about the same tools. Perhaps there are
>coming new insights about the tools from this kind of reeingeering ?
>I would have more trouble if a quarter of all squeakers now go to
>Python ;-)
>
>
>Regards
>
>Hans
>
>Am 22.04.2006 um 10:34 schrieb stéphane ducasse:
>
>>What hilaire and me said is that pushing the idea that python
>>people should reimplement squeak and etoys
>>is not really cool for our community, let us face it! The point was
>>not to push your own language and fight for that, just to show
>>the good aspects you have. So it was surprising and boring after a
>>while to hear Alan systematically saying that they should redo
>>everything in Python. I feel that this is counter productive and
>>this is also why I say that if their goal is to teach maths to kids
>>then they should focus on the contents not on the technology, so if
>>I would have the same goal I would build a set of cool tools:
>>Kara, BostInc, Logo, Etoys, Karel, DrScheme, Python... and
>>encourage the building of contents and not to focus on
>>a technology.
>>
>>I strongly believe that the effort we are doing to tighen up Squeak
>>will help people to build new environment and new environments for
>>kids too. For example the Pier logo wiki is a clear example of that.
>>The work that Craig is doing can be the foundation for a really
>>tiny core on top of which we could build a complete new set
>>of worlds, Sophie and Tweak are also really sexy and we should find
>>a way to integrate that (I'm really for helping moving
>>Tweak when it is ready into Squeak if Tweakers want that).
>>
>>Then hearing argument that python is the way to go because they are
>>mainstream was fun (because you can always use an argument only
>>when it is ok to apply it to you), because C or Java are much more
>>mainstream.
>>
>>Now there are a lot of cool material already existing in Scheme for
>>example (Structure and interpretation of computer program, how to
>>design program to name a few with the excellent DrScheme
>>environment). Now of course you can reimplement everything in your
>>own cool language because this is the only one that is important
>>and mainstream.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Hi Stef,
>>>
>>>just for understanding - you and Alan want to say that
>>>
>>>- everyone which is interested is welcomed for giving new ideas
>>>how to make education, regardless of his favoured system/language
>>>- the implementation is not important - if someone want to use
>>>python, to bring in his ideas he should do so
>>>- reinventing or reengineering always gives the chance to think
>>>once more about it - from a new point of view. Nothing is really
>>>ready.
>>>
>>>
>>>Something like this ?
>>>
>>>Regards
>>>
>>>Hans
>>>
>>>Am 22.04.2006 um 09:14 schrieb stéphane ducasse:
>>>
>>>>If you think about it the sad part is not really there.
>>>>I do not believe that teaching etoy, logo, botsinc really help
>>>>kids learning maths as with a teacher: They have fun, they are
>>>>emerged into maths, they are not afraid which is already a lot.
>>>>Instead of investing in language people should invest
>>>>in contents: the right exercise to teach the right concepts.
>>>>Right now what you see (even if etoy) is that they are really few
>>>>good material. I translated the book of Kim and some french
>>>>teachers were happy and then asked the killing question: the
>>>>start was fun so what where is the contents?
>>>>Besides driving a car....(i pointed them to the graph basket ball
>>>>thingies but this is not enough).
>>>>So if Ubuntu people think that they can substitute the writing
>>>>and development of a math curriculum, with
>>>>a "come with me play stuff" developed in any language, this means
>>>>that this is a view of programmer (bold of course and full of
>>>>enthousiasm) and I wish them success, because I think that the
>>>>contents in any format is more important.
>>>>
>>>>May living and being surrounded by teachers biaised my view of
>>>>the world...
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

> I agree that content is really important, and even more so is mentoring.
> The language is less so providing it doesn't develop limited ideas (like
> BASIC did).
>
> Squeak was 10 years ago to make a system for children, parents and
> teachers that could allow learning by doing, but also as a publishing
> and communications medium: specifically, the goal was to get 1000 pieces
> of 21st century content out on the net in a form that would allow
> learning by doing and collaboration.
>
> This didn't happen -- but I'm hoping it will, even 5 or more years late.
> It would be great if more people (programmers) were interested in the
> larger destinies of computing.

>Alan Kay a écrit :
> > Yes, if only the world -- especially computer people -- were even
> > halfway rational and interesting in learning ... but this is one of the
> > main goals of education (= enlightenment, etc.), and this is why global
> > education for everyone has been my main interest over the years.
> >
> > As Seymour once said, "I wish the US was still a developing country!").
> > We could say that about Europe also....
>
>Hum, not sure to understand. In developping country, one related problem
>to education is to avoid children suffer from anemia, which make them
>unable to concentrate on anything.
>
>Hilaire

>Alan Kay> As Seymour once said, "I wish the US was still a developing
>country!").
> > We could say that about Europe also....
>
>Hilaire: "Hum, not sure to understand. "
>
>My reading of what Seymour said (as quoted by Alan K.) was that the term
>"developing country" is a pun.  The phrase "developing country," instead of
>having its usual meaning, refers to the fact that the US is no longer a
>country interested in positive change ("development,") and is instead a
>place where ideas, attitudes and the level of enlightenment are static.
>
>Perhaps I'm wrong, but that is how I read it.
>
>--Alan L.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [hidden email]
>[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Hilaire
>Fernandes
>Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 7:07 AM
>To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
>Subject: Re: some news
>
>Alan Kay a écrit :
> > Yes, if only the world -- especially computer people -- were even
> > halfway rational and interesting in learning ... but this is one of
> > the main goals of education (= enlightenment, etc.), and this is why
> > global education for everyone has been my main interest over the years.
> >
> > As Seymour once said, "I wish the US was still a developing country!").
> > We could say that about Europe also....
>
>Hum, not sure to understand. In developping country, one related problem to
>education is to avoid children suffer from anemia, which make them unable to
>concentrate on anything.
>
>Hilaire