[squeak-dev] [ANN] A new anniversary without 3.10

>
> On 8-May-08, at 2:50 PM, Merik Voswinkel wrote:
>>
>>
>> I personally think it is a great loss that the fun bits are gone. I  
>> can reload them but most users can and will not.
>> But more importantly, the fun stuff are the things that will get  
>> Squeak and Croquet adopted by the large majority of users.
>
> Well the fun stuff isn't *gone* it's just not included in the  
> default image referred to on the relevant webpage. We could 'solve'  
> that issue (and I agree that it is an issue of some concern) simply  
> by altering the download page to show-
> the funsqueak image as the recommended download for newcomers
> the developer image as one suggested for typical younger developers
> the base image as one best for us old farts that don't like  
> autocompletion, flashing lights and the other assorted bling.
> ... and of course any other pre-built systems of interest, such as  
> seaside setups.
>
> A subsidiary issue that those of you that are fun-enthusiasts must  
> get together to solve is keeping the fun stuff alive and working. If  
> you think it is important, you have to treat it as such and maintain  
> it. No one else has any obligation to do so.

>
> Again, FunSqueak have this plus MorphicWrappers, MathMorphs, Seaside  
> and
> Pier, and many more...
>
> My plan is put more fun things and all people ask and I manage to  
> have into
>
> If Matthew work is complete, 3.11 don't have traits.
> And we move Etoys , Universes, Installer  and more to trusted  
> repositories.
>
> In the long run , you have Squeak 4.0 and could install things at  
> will.
> Wish Etoys ? Load it
> Wish Seaside or Aida ? Load it
> Wish Sound, Speech, etc ? Load it
> Don't like or don't need Squeakmap, Universes or Installer ? Don't  
> load it
> Don't like or don't need Traits ? Don't load it
> Don't like a complete Sunit and all Test we have into 3.10 ? You  
> could win
> some space if have handicapped hardware.
> The idea is you develop with Damien dev image , do a .mcz and load  
> it onto a
> Squeak 4.0, put into a One Click VM from Sophie and presto, have a  
> ready to
> run on all major OS

> Keith Hodges wrote:
>>> Squeak is not welcoming anymore... first time I met Squeak it was  
>>> on 3.4 I think, and the overall first impression was great, lots  
>>> of things to discover and wonder at. these days there is a dull  
>>> grey background with a few windows opened on technical text,  
>>> details of last updates... it could not be more different.
>>>
>> Thats the whole point of derivative images such as Fun-Squeak or  
>> Squeak-dev image. Its horses for courses.
>> Those of us who want to actually use squeak for something in  
>> particular find unloading packages harder than loading them.
>> So I support the goal of trimming down the main image (though its  
>> still a bit fat)
>
> Then how come that 3.10 basic is larger than 3.6 full? Where is the  
> "trimming" in that? Isn't it much more accurate to say that the fun  
> bits have been replaced with boring bits? A quick comparison between  
> 3.6 and 3.10 shows that games, speech and 3d are gone, and traits,  
> monticello and universes have been added (there are probably more  
> but those are obvious major differences).
>
> Cheers,
>  - Andreas
>
>
>

> Hi andreas
>
> This is really fun to see you saying that when we got problems not
> having 3D in squeak because some guy decided not to really maintain the
> old 3D engine and never bother to let Squeak get any new one. But
> anyway, if the squeak community does not want to take care of the people
> doing Seaside and other software engineering work (you know making a
> living out of Squeak) and only care about often half broken or old
> abstraction (Speech was based on a pretty old algorithm for example),
> then good luck. In addition we always said that people could work on
> building an image for kids or people willing to toy with Squeak.
>
> May be finally you want to attract people to Croquet and this is why it
> is politically important for you to state that,
> and may be this is important for you that Squeak gets "Fun" in that sad
> way, because I imagine that lot of people will
> not use FunSqueak for doing Seaside dev.
>
> But of course we are the bad shitty guys, we take responsibility of
> having monticello and all the rest.
> Don't reply, it is not necessary, I will not read this thread anymore.  
> this just confirms that we took the right decision with
> Sapphire now called Pharo (from faro ~ phare = lighthouse).
>
>
> Stef
>
>
>
> On May 8, 2008, at 11:38 PM, Andreas Raab wrote:
>
>> Keith Hodges wrote:
>>>> Squeak is not welcoming anymore... first time I met Squeak it was on
>>>> 3.4 I think, and the overall first impression was great, lots of
>>>> things to discover and wonder at. these days there is a dull grey
>>>> background with a few windows opened on technical text, details of
>>>> last updates... it could not be more different.
>>>>
>>> Thats the whole point of derivative images such as Fun-Squeak or
>>> Squeak-dev image. Its horses for courses.
>>> Those of us who want to actually use squeak for something in
>>> particular find unloading packages harder than loading them.
>>> So I support the goal of trimming down the main image (though its
>>> still a bit fat)
>>
>> Then how come that 3.10 basic is larger than 3.6 full? Where is the
>> "trimming" in that? Isn't it much more accurate to say that the fun
>> bits have been replaced with boring bits? A quick comparison between
>> 3.6 and 3.10 shows that games, speech and 3d are gone, and traits,
>> monticello and universes have been added (there are probably more but
>> those are obvious major differences).
>>
>> Cheers,
>>  - Andreas
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

> Merik Voswinkel wrote:
>>> A subsidiary issue that those of you that are fun-enthusiasts must  
>>> get together to solve is keeping the fun stuff alive and working.  
>>> If you think it is important, you have to treat it as such and  
>>> maintain it. No one else has any obligation to do so.
>> Yes, it could be easily solved by renaming FunSqueak to become  
>> 'Squeak' and have all the developer image stuff in there as well.
>> But we seem to want to release images for ourselves nowadays, not  
>> one for the general public anymore, like the Squeak Central team did.
>
> I think the main sticking point here is what the *default* image is.  
> There is nothing wrong with minimal and/or specialized images;  
> that's both to be expected and helpful. To give an example, in the  
> Croquet SDK you actually get two images: The "Croquet" image which  
> contains everything out-of-the-box and the "Homebase" image, which  
> is minimal and tucked away in the deployment directory. So that (for  
> people who care) they can start with a fresh image, load *just* what  
> they want and need and use that but with the default image being the  
> full experience.
>
> Cheers,
>  - Andreas
>

> Hi andreas
>
> This is really fun to see you saying that when we got problems not  
> having 3D in squeak because some guy decided not to really maintain the  
> old 3D engine and never bother to let Squeak get any new one. But  
> anyway, if the squeak community does not want to take care of the people  
> doing Seaside and other software engineering work (you know making a  
> living out of Squeak) and only care about often half broken or old  
> abstraction (Speech was based on a pretty old algorithm for example),  
> then good luck. In addition we always said that people could work on  
> building an image for kids or people willing to toy with Squeak.
>
> May be finally you want to attract people to Croquet and this is why it  
> is politically important for you to state that,
> and may be this is important for you that Squeak gets "Fun" in that sad  
> way, because I imagine that lot of people will
> not use FunSqueak for doing Seaside dev.

> But of course we are the bad shitty guys, we take responsibility of  
> having monticello and all the rest.
> Don't reply, it is not necessary, I will not read this thread anymore.  
> this just confirms that we took the right decision with
> Sapphire now called Pharo (from faro ~ phare = lighthouse).
>
>
> Stef
>
>
>
> On May 8, 2008, at 11:38 PM, Andreas Raab wrote:
>
>> Keith Hodges wrote:
>>>> Squeak is not welcoming anymore... first time I met Squeak it was on  
>>>> 3.4 I think, and the overall first impression was great, lots of  
>>>> things to discover and wonder at. these days there is a dull grey  
>>>> background with a few windows opened on technical text, details of  
>>>> last updates... it could not be more different.
>>>>
>>> Thats the whole point of derivative images such as Fun-Squeak or  
>>> Squeak-dev image. Its horses for courses.
>>> Those of us who want to actually use squeak for something in  
>>> particular find unloading packages harder than loading them.
>>> So I support the goal of trimming down the main image (though its  
>>> still a bit fat)
>>
>> Then how come that 3.10 basic is larger than 3.6 full? Where is the  
>> "trimming" in that? Isn't it much more accurate to say that the fun  
>> bits have been replaced with boring bits? A quick comparison between  
>> 3.6 and 3.10 shows that games, speech and 3d are gone, and traits,  
>> monticello and universes have been added (there are probably more but  
>> those are obvious major differences).
>>
>> Cheers,
>>  - Andreas
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>