Smalltalk › Squeak › Squeak - Dev

[squeak-dev] Cuis update

_‹ Previous Topic Next Topic _›

Classic

List

Threaded

51 messages Options

123

Bèrto ëd Sèra

Re: [squeak-dev] Pasting unicode (was Re: Pharo:: Re: Cuis update)

Hi Juan!

if anyone expects that he clearly never coded :))))))))))))))) You did a hell of a job. To my naive eyes what is needed is not a volunteer for a suicide mission, but rather some form of integration among the many (too many?) images. The advantage VW clearly has is in having ONE stable base with many options, here we have many a base, all with huge merits and none with all the basic answers a simple developer needs.

In some way there is a strange "all by myself" approach, which is maybe dictated by the fact that all of us have our own image, work on it until we get really tired and eventually end up almost in insulation. In such a situation we all address what is relevant "for us", we all do the best we can but there seem to be little chances to integrate all this work into a common stable distro.

Get me right, I'm not criticising people. I'm saying that the load of work that is being done doesn't eventually add up to something that a first time user perceives as "quality". This is something about the method, not about the people. Yet in the end this thing pushes away potential coders that could help in making things better.

I fell in love with Smalltalk back in the 90s, when there was but VisualWorks around. I had loads of things I didn't like with VW, but I never had to spend months checking the same 10 lines on the like of 30 different images to see "which one makes a better luck". I have to do it with Squeak, and I do it because I do want to write Smalltalk code again and I'm ready to stand some pain in order to do it. If I had never written code in it I'd have probably concluded that this is but a waste of time.

I'm not worried by the fact that I will have to stay up some more nights, because I perfectly know that I'll do it anyway. In instead, I'm worried by the fact that many people will get a wrong impression by their first contact. And I'm sure this very worry was YOUR worry when you started CUIS.

CUIS is a wonderful distro, but today I had to inline a string of credits for a guy who has an Irish name, and in order to do it I'll have to make a chinese dance, because I cannot cut and paste his name into a string. Now go and explain to a paying customer that you are two weeks late because you cannot cut and paste a name... When Igor said this is just a toy I could only agree. Because this is what people who try to sell Squeak are condemned to hear over and over again, as long as these basic problems do not get solved.

Once again, this does not mean that someone is lazy or stupid or an "enemy of the people". It means that *maybe* there could be a way to share the load of work you all do in a way that makes a better result with less effort. I underline it, I said *maybe* and I'm not able to suggest a remedy here and now. But surely talking about it in explicit terms can help to find such a remedy, if any exists.

Berto

2009/4/16 Juan Vuletich <[hidden email]>

Bert Freudenberg wrote:

On 16.04.2009, at 09:24, Andreas Raab wrote:

Bčrto ėd Sčra wrote:

Yes. This thing is *extremely* annoying. You can cut and paste any string to anything, but you cannot do it in squeak.

Really? I don't recall seeing a bug report from you. What platform are you on? What problems did you have? You really should report such problems when you have them - how do you expect us to fix problems that we don't know about?

Err, we know quite well about these problems. Typing unicode chars don't work because the utf32 charcode is not used by the released image. To paste unicode text on the Mac you would need the image support for the extendend clipboard plugin. But even if typing or pasting works, the fonts only cover the latin-1 range, not full unicode. Neither Freetype nor HostFonts nor Pango support is in the released image, nor did we standardize on one.

All of these issues have been solved already, but did not make it into a release afaik.

- Bert -

I hope all this works as an argument for considering Unicode optional in Cuis. Or does anybody expect that besides doing 5 years of cleaning towards a simpler and faster image, I also need to address all these issues myself?

The whole idea of optional packages is to draw a boundary between the kernel and each of them, to allow different people to focus on different problems.

Cheers,
Juan Vuletich

--
==============================
Constitution du 24 juin 1793 - Article 35. - Quand le gouvernement viole les droits du peuple, l'insurrection est, pour le peuple et pour chaque portion du peuple, le plus sacré des droits et le plus indispensable des devoirs.

Bert Freudenberg

Re: [squeak-dev] Pharo:: Re: Cuis update

In reply to this post by Juan Vuletich-4

On 16.04.2009, at 12:26, Juan Vuletich wrote:

> This is an open source project. This is the developers community
> ("squeak-dev", right?). You are not expected to complain and wait.
> You are expected to help.

True that, can't be said often enough.

OTOH, for an open-source project with a history as long as ours it
sounds pretty immature. You'ld think by now we could effort having
users who just expect Squeak to work for developing their own stuff,
rather than having to fix Squeak itself.

- Bert -

Markus Gälli-3

Re: [squeak-dev] Pasting unicode (was Re: Pharo:: Re: Cuis update)

In reply to this post by Bèrto ëd Sèra

Hi Folks

Am 16.04.2009 um 13:38 schrieb Bèrto ëd Sèra:

> CUIS is a wonderful distro, but today I had to inline a string of
> credits for a guy who has an Irish name, and in order to do it I'll
> have to make a chinese dance, because I cannot cut and paste his
> name into a string. Now go and explain to a paying customer that you
> are two weeks late because you cannot cut and paste a name... When
> Igor said this is just a toy I could only agree. Because this is
> what people who try to sell Squeak are condemned to hear over and
> over again, as long as these basic problems do not get solved.
>
> Once again, this does not mean that someone is lazy or stupid or an
> "enemy of the people". It means that *maybe* there could be a way to
> share the load of work you all do in a way that makes a better
> result with less effort. I underline it, I said *maybe* and I'm not
> able to suggest a remedy here and now. But surely talking about it
> in explicit terms can help to find such a remedy, if any exists.

+1

Actually this "chinese dance" also caused me to stay away from Cuis,
which I really liked in general. Especially the speed.
Please do consider to have unicode as not optional.

Side remark: I tried Pharo as well for reading in some data with
unicode but it also coughed on Umlauts -- so I found myself to use the
squeakland distro again, which for me actually works best -- as soon
as I have changed it from kids-mode to developer-mode. Oh well...

Cheers

Markus

Damien Cassou-3

Re: [squeak-dev] Pharo:: Re: Cuis update

In reply to this post by Sophie424

On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 9:11 PM, Sophie (itsme213) <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Is there any chance the Pharo folks would be open to exploring whether Cuis
> can be used as a base for their work?

That will never happen because Cuis derived from Squeak 3.7 IIRC.
Pharo would have to first update things to 3.8 and 3.9 and then
reapply all Pharo changes.

--
Damien Cassou
http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

Juan Vuletich-4

Re: [squeak-dev] Pharo:: Re: Cuis update

In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg

Bert Freudenberg wrote:

> On 16.04.2009, at 12:26, Juan Vuletich wrote:
>
>> This is an open source project. This is the developers community
>> ("squeak-dev", right?). You are not expected to complain and wait.
>> You are expected to help.
>
>
> True that, can't be said often enough.
>
> OTOH, for an open-source project with a history as long as ours it
> sounds pretty immature. You'ld think by now we could effort having
> users who just expect Squeak to work for developing their own stuff,
> rather than having to fix Squeak itself.
>
> - Bert -
>

Agreed. Cuis is also my effort to find a kernel simple and stable enough.

Cheers,
Juan Vuletich

Juan Vuletich-4

Re: [squeak-dev] Pasting unicode (was Re: Pharo:: Re: Cuis update)

In reply to this post by Markus Gälli-3

Markus Gaelli wrote:

> Hi Folks
>
> Am 16.04.2009 um 13:38 schrieb Bèrto ëd Sèra:
>
>> CUIS is a wonderful distro, but today I had to inline a string of
>> credits for a guy who has an Irish name, and in order to do it I'll
>> have to make a chinese dance, because I cannot cut and paste his name
>> into a string. Now go and explain to a paying customer that you are
>> two weeks late because you cannot cut and paste a name... When Igor
>> said this is just a toy I could only agree. Because this is what
>> people who try to sell Squeak are condemned to hear over and over
>> again, as long as these basic problems do not get solved.
>>
>> Once again, this does not mean that someone is lazy or stupid or an
>> "enemy of the people". It means that *maybe* there could be a way to
>> share the load of work you all do in a way that makes a better result
>> with less effort. I underline it, I said *maybe* and I'm not able to
>> suggest a remedy here and now. But surely talking about it in
>> explicit terms can help to find such a remedy, if any exists.
>
> +1
>
> Actually this "chinese dance" also caused me to stay away from Cuis,
> which I really liked in general. Especially the speed.
> Please do consider to have unicode as not optional.
>
> Side remark: I tried Pharo as well for reading in some data with
> unicode but it also coughed on Umlauts -- so I found myself to use the
> squeakland distro again, which for me actually works best -- as soon
> as I have changed it from kids-mode to developer-mode. Oh well...
>
> Cheers
>
> Markus

All I can say is to repeat myself:

"I hope all this works as an argument for considering Unicode optional
in Cuis. Or does anybody expect that besides doing 5 years of cleaning
towards a simpler and faster image, I also need to address all these
issues myself?

The whole idea of optional packages is to draw a boundary between the
kernel and each of them, to allow different people to focus on different
problems. "

Cheers,
Juan Vuletich

Juan Vuletich-4

Re: [squeak-dev] Pasting unicode (was Re: Pharo:: Re: Cuis update)

In reply to this post by Bèrto ëd Sèra

Bèrto ëd Sèra wrote:

> Hi Juan!
> ... (big snip)
>
> CUIS is a wonderful distro, but today I had to inline a string of
> credits for a guy who has an Irish name, and in order to do it I'll
> have to make a chinese dance, because I cannot cut and paste his name
> into a string. Now go and explain to a paying customer that you are
> two weeks late because you cannot cut and paste a name... When Igor
> said this is just a toy I could only agree. Because this is what
> people who try to sell Squeak are condemned to hear over and over
> again, as long as these basic problems do not get solved.
>
> Once again, this does not mean that someone is lazy or stupid or an
> "enemy of the people". It means that *maybe* there could be a way to
> share the load of work you all do in a way that makes a better result
> with less effort. I underline it, I said *maybe* and I'm not able to
> suggest a remedy here and now. But surely talking about it in explicit
> terms can help to find such a remedy, if any exists.
>
> Berto

So it seems there are problems using Unicode on all Squeak
distributions. What is needed is a group of people who care enough about
the problem to fix it. I'm sure that code could be shared by various
distributions. But somebody needs to do it. So, please, people worried
about Unicode. Stand up, and volunteer. Make a team. Understand and fix
the problem.

Cheers,
Juan Vuletich

Bèrto ëd Sèra

Re: [squeak-dev] Pasting unicode (was Re: Pharo:: Re: Cuis update)

Hi Juan!

I slept like 2 hours in the last 48... and it won't get much better in the next 3 months. If nobody shows up in the meantime I can start to put some time on it in late summer, and if someone shows up before... PLEASE! Do write at least a blog about what you are doing.

Berto

2009/4/16 Juan Vuletich <[hidden email]>

Bčrto ėd Sčra wrote:

Hi Juan!
... (big snip)

CUIS is a wonderful distro, but today I had to inline a string of credits for a guy who has an Irish name, and in order to do it I'll have to make a chinese dance, because I cannot cut and paste his name into a string. Now go and explain to a paying customer that you are two weeks late because you cannot cut and paste a name... When Igor said this is just a toy I could only agree. Because this is what people who try to sell Squeak are condemned to hear over and over again, as long as these basic problems do not get solved.

Once again, this does not mean that someone is lazy or stupid or an "enemy of the people". It means that *maybe* there could be a way to share the load of work you all do in a way that makes a better result with less effort. I underline it, I said *maybe* and I'm not able to suggest a remedy here and now. But surely talking about it in explicit terms can help to find such a remedy, if any exists.

Berto

So it seems there are problems using Unicode on all Squeak distributions. What is needed is a group of people who care enough about the problem to fix it. I'm sure that code could be shared by various distributions. But somebody needs to do it. So, please, people worried about Unicode. Stand up, and volunteer. Make a team. Understand and fix the problem.

Cheers,
Juan Vuletich

Andreas.Raab

[squeak-dev] Re: Pharo:: Re: Cuis update

In reply to this post by Bèrto ëd Sèra

Be`rto e"d Se`ra wrote:
> LOL Andreas... 99,999% of first-time users will NEVER fill a bug. They
> will go out and say "It's pure bullshit". :))))) Come on... we all do it
> ten times a day.

Sure we do. But since you've been hanging around for a while I'm holding
you to a higher standard ;-)

> As per myself... I discussed this thing on IRC a number of times, wrote
> about it here because under Win even directory paths prevent Squeak from
> working and all I got was the usual kind of thing you get from unstable
> Open Source stuff: not much really, but at least it didn't cost me a penny.

Many people are not on IRC (I for sure am not). But to the best of my
knowledge, all of these problems have been addressed. Your mail is a
perfect example for the problems though; since I don't have a russian
windows system I can't really test whether anything is broken! That's
why reporting these issues, even if briefly ("I just tried your latest
VM and it still seems to have problem x, y, or z") is so important.

> No probs, I switched OS and images until I found a configuration that
> works for what I need, but while I can use Squeak for development I
> surely don't plan to distribute it. It is self-evident that the
> community is currently too small to make a stable distro. I admire you
> all for what you are doing, and I will contribute as much as I can, but
> customers want things that do not break.

For sure. But friends help and let you know what's broken ;-)

Cheers,
- Andreas

Andreas.Raab

[squeak-dev] Re: Pasting unicode (was Re: Pharo:: Re: Cuis update)

In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg

Bert Freudenberg wrote:

> Err, we know quite well about these problems. Typing unicode chars don't
> work because the utf32 charcode is not used by the released image. To
> paste unicode text on the Mac you would need the image support for the
> extendend clipboard plugin. But even if typing or pasting works, the
> fonts only cover the latin-1 range, not full unicode. Neither Freetype
> nor HostFonts nor Pango support is in the released image, nor did we
> standardize on one.
>
> All of these issues have been solved already, but did not make it into a
> release afaik.

Interesting. Goes to show that I haven't been paying much attention. But
if the fixes are there (can you send some pointers?) it sounds like a
perfect candidate to assemble those into 3.11 and get this stuff
straight. For fonts, there is Dejavu (http://dejavu-fonts.org/) which is
based on the Bitstream Vera family and should make for a virtually
identical replacement.

Cheers,
- Andreas

Bèrto ëd Sèra

Re: [squeak-dev] Re: Pharo:: Re: Cuis update

In reply to this post by Andreas.Raab

Hi!

Many people are not on IRC (I for sure am not). But to the best of my knowledge, all of these problems have been addressed. Your mail is a perfect example for the problems though; since I don't have a russian windows system I can't really test whether anything is broken! That's why reporting these issues, even if briefly ("I just tried your latest VM and it still seems to have problem x, y, or z") is so important.

I should think (it actually reads "I do hope") that a localised path with umlauts could break it much in the same way, at least, what Markus wrote makes me hope it should. It's definitely a problem to verify each possible combination, and I'm so far not even venturing into imagining how you can make an Hebrew or Arabic interface for people who may need RTL rendered GUIs. I have a mixed Russian/English system now on Ubuntu and I still have my wife's vista laptop in Russian, so whenever you guys have a candidate release I can verify it in some 10 minutes. Sadly I won't have much spare time until late summer, but I can always find 10 minutes to make a simple test.

For sure. But friends help and let you know what's broken ;-)

Deal :)

Berto

Ken Causey-3

Re: [squeak-dev] Pharo:: Re: Cuis update

In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg

+1

Ken

On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 13:38 +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

> On 16.04.2009, at 12:26, Juan Vuletich wrote:
>
> > This is an open source project. This is the developers community
> > ("squeak-dev", right?). You are not expected to complain and wait.
> > You are expected to help.
>
>
> True that, can't be said often enough.
>
> OTOH, for an open-source project with a history as long as ours it
> sounds pretty immature. You'ld think by now we could effort having
> users who just expect Squeak to work for developing their own stuff,
> rather than having to fix Squeak itself.
>
> - Bert -
>
>
>

signature.asc (196 bytes) Download Attachment

hernan.wilkinson

Re: [squeak-dev] Pharo:: Re: Cuis update

In reply to this post by Sophie424

isn't it there a way to try it automatically? it is Smalltalk... I'm not saying it is going to work 100% but...

Maybe something like this:

1) Load each method of cuis that is different or does not exist in pharo/squeak

2) For each method that is in pharo/squeak that is not is cuis and it does not have reference, remove it

3) ssomething similar for variables, classes, etc

4) Try pharo/squeak and see how it works! :-)

Just an idea...

Hernan.

On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Sophie (itsme213) <[hidden email]> wrote:

Is there any chance the Pharo folks would be open to exploring whether Cuis
can be used as a base for their work? It might let them focus on what they
*really* want for Pharo.

Looking at the Pharo milestones
http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/Milestones I see many not-yet-done
things that overlap Cuis and that are already done in Cuis:
- default in-image fonts
- etoys removal
- re-org MorphicExtras
- remove SqueakMap & Installer
- License clean

... plus Cuis size & responsiveness is great :-):

In the medium+ term I suspect it would speed up their progress.

If they are, is there any chance Juan would be open to helping them get
there?

Of course given the moving parts and people this may be a silly question,
but I just thought I would ask.

My 2c -- Sophie

"Juan Vuletich" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
news:[hidden email]...
> Hi Folks,
>
> I've updated Cuis to #0182. I included a couple of fixes to issues in
> Polygons and Curves found by Jerome, and a new keyboard focus indicator.
> (No more annoying flashing!)
>
> You can download www.jvuletich.org/Cuis/Cuis1.0-0182.zip . In that folder
> there is also a zip with change sets that could be useful for other Squeak
> distributions, and text descriptions of them.
>
> Cheers,
> Juan Vuletich
>
> Ps: I also updated the 'About' text as follows:
>
> About Cuis
>
> Cuis is a Smalltalk environment derived from Squeak (www.squeak.org). Main
> project web is at www.jvuletich.org/Cuis
>
> The main idea behind Cuis is to avoid unneeded complexity. Why? Because
> complexity puts a limit to the level of understanding of the system a
> person might reach, and therefore limits the things that can be done. Dan
> Ingalls says all this in "Design Principles Behind Smalltalk" (a must
> read!).
>
> My passion is about finding the essence of ideas. In this regard I feel
> close to Alan's "Fundamentals of new Computing" ideas. But as I'm not a
> researcher, and I want a working system now, I am trying to distill the
> essence of Smalltalk-80 in Squeak drop by drop.
>
> Some of the main ideas and objectives for Cuis are:
>
> - Close to Smalltalk-80 and Dan Ingalls' ideas
> - Include only kernel functionality. Remove stuff considered optional
> - Included stuff should be in very good shape.
> - Include a greatly reduced version of Morphic as the main UI
> - Easy to fix and extend
> - Share fixes and enhancements with Squeak
> - Stable. Smalltalk kernel should not change much
> - Compatible to a reasonable degree with packages intended for other
> Squeak distributions
> - Lead by Juan Vuletich (jmv) after these principles
>
> What is the audience? Cuis should be the Smalltalk of choice to:
>
> - Smalltalkers who want a simpler system
> - Teachers teaching Smalltalk
> - People learning Smalltalk
> - Developers working for devices with little memory or CPU power
> - People wanting to experiment with new directions in language design, UI
> frameworks, etc
> - People wanting a reasonable kernel on which to build optional packages
> - People wanting a nice looking ide that is also portable
>
> Cuis owes its existence to Squeak and the Squeak community. We don't want
> to form a separate user community. We believe that the Squeak community is
> the natural place for people using the various Squeak distributions and
> derivatives. We want to share code and ideas with other Squeak
> distributions, including the official one.
>
> License
>
> Cuis is distributed subject to the MIT License, as in
> http://www.opensource.org/licenses/mit-license.php . Any contribution
> submitted for incorporation into or for distribution with Cuis shall be
> presumed subject to the same license.
>
> Portions of Cuis are copyrighted works of many contributors to Squeak,
> Cuis and related projects.
>
>
>

Andreas.Raab

[squeak-dev] Re: Pasting unicode (was Re: Pharo:: Re: Cuis update)

In reply to this post by Andreas.Raab

BTW, the situation doesn't seem to be quite as dire as one might assume.
Attached are two screenshots which were created by:
a) Installing Dejavu first (download, click, choose "install font")
b) Going to ru.wikipedia.org and el.wikipedia.org
c) Copying and pasting the first article from the front page
That is about the extent of functionality that I can verify and it does
seem to work allright except from the Character cr glyph displayed in
Dejavu (I'm not sure where that comes from).

Perhaps half of the problems could be solved simply by installing Dejavu
by default?

Cheers,
- Andreas

Andreas Raab wrote:

> Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>> Err, we know quite well about these problems. Typing unicode chars
>> don't work because the utf32 charcode is not used by the released
>> image. To paste unicode text on the Mac you would need the image
>> support for the extendend clipboard plugin. But even if typing or
>> pasting works, the fonts only cover the latin-1 range, not full
>> unicode. Neither Freetype nor HostFonts nor Pango support is in the
>> released image, nor did we standardize on one.
>>
>> All of these issues have been solved already, but did not make it into
>> a release afaik.
>
> Interesting. Goes to show that I haven't been paying much attention. But
> if the fixes are there (can you send some pointers?) it sounds like a
> perfect candidate to assemble those into 3.11 and get this stuff
> straight. For fonts, there is Dejavu (http://dejavu-fonts.org/) which is
> based on the Bitstream Vera family and should make for a virtually
> identical replacement.
>
> Cheers,
> - Andreas
>
>

ru.wikipedia.png (32K) Download Attachment

el.wikipedia.png (20K) Download Attachment

Janko Mivšek

Re: [squeak-dev] Pasting unicode (was Re: Pharo:: Re: Cuis update)

In reply to this post by Juan Vuletich-4

Hi Juan,

Juan Vuletich pravi:
> Markus Gaelli wrote:

>> Actually this "chinese dance" also caused me to stay away from Cuis,
>> which I really liked in general. Especially the speed.
>> Please do consider to have unicode as not optional.
>>
>> Side remark: I tried Pharo as well for reading in some data with
>> unicode but it also coughed on Umlauts -- so I found myself to use the
>> squeakland distro again, which for me actually works best -- as soon
>> as I have changed it from kids-mode to developer-mode. Oh well...

> "I hope all this works as an argument for considering Unicode optional
> in Cuis. Or does anybody expect that besides doing 5 years of cleaning
> towards a simpler and faster image, I also need to address all these
> issues myself?
>
> The whole idea of optional packages is to draw a boundary between the
> kernel and each of them, to allow different people to focus on different
> problems. "

I'm not quite sure that you can make Unicode support optional, that is,
loadable as a separate package. Unicode is roughly made of two things:

- internal Unicode support (Unicode characters, strings, encoding)
- input (keyboard) and output (UI, fonts)

While you can make internal support loadable, input/output relies on
operating system and therefore on Squeak VM, which is harder to make
loadable, if at all.

But Pharo guys are doing quite an effort lately on input/output part of
Unicode support, maybe you can join forces?

Best regards
Janko

--
Janko Mivšek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si

Bert Freudenberg

Re: [squeak-dev] Re: Pasting unicode (was Re: Pharo:: Re: Cuis update)

In reply to this post by Andreas.Raab

On 17.04.2009, at 06:41, Andreas Raab wrote:

> BTW, the situation doesn't seem to be quite as dire as one might
> assume. Attached are two screenshots which were created by:
> a) Installing Dejavu first (download, click, choose "install font")
> b) Going to ru.wikipedia.org and el.wikipedia.org
> c) Copying and pasting the first article from the front page
> That is about the extent of functionality that I can verify and it
> does seem to work allright except from the Character cr glyph
> displayed in Dejavu (I'm not sure where that comes from).
>
> Perhaps half of the problems could be solved simply by installing
> Dejavu by default?
>
> Cheers,
> - Andreas

One of the problems, yes. But note your example only works because the
Windows VM does paste unicode. On the Mac I get this:

The first line shows DejaVuSans does work, has cyrillic glyphs.
(DejaVuSans-Bold.ttf produces an error on import)

The second line shows typing does not work, I typed a cyrillic Б but
it is treated as 0 (the utf32 problem).

Below that the paste from ru.wikipedia. These are actual question
marks (ASCII 63), the Mac VM does not paste Unicode even if setting
SqueakEncodingType to UTF-8 (only the extended clipboard plugin does
this).

This is using the latest release of course (Squeak3.10.2-7179mac.zip
from squeak.org's front page).

- Bert -

>
> Andreas Raab wrote:
>> Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>>> Err, we know quite well about these problems. Typing unicode chars
>>> don't work because the utf32 charcode is not used by the released
>>> image. To paste unicode text on the Mac you would need the image
>>> support for the extendend clipboard plugin. But even if typing or
>>> pasting works, the fonts only cover the latin-1 range, not full
>>> unicode. Neither Freetype nor HostFonts nor Pango support is in
>>> the released image, nor did we standardize on one.
>>>
>>> All of these issues have been solved already, but did not make it
>>> into a release afaik.
>> Interesting. Goes to show that I haven't been paying much
>> attention. But if the fixes are there (can you send some pointers?)
>> it sounds like a perfect candidate to assemble those into 3.11 and
>> get this stuff straight. For fonts, there is Dejavu (http://dejavu-fonts.org/
>> ) which is based on the Bitstream Vera family and should make for a
>> virtually identical replacement.
>> Cheers,
>> - Andreas
>
> <ru.wikipedia.png><el.wikipedia.png>

Workspace.png (13K) Download Attachment

Michael Rueger-6

Re: [squeak-dev] Re: Pasting unicode (was Re: Pharo:: Re: Cuis update)

Bert Freudenberg wrote:

> One of the problems, yes. But note your example only works because the
> Windows VM does paste unicode. On the Mac I get this:

And the plugin then return non-precomposed UTF8.

There a couple of "interesting" things that need fixing for full unicode
support, too many to quickly explain. Best would be to look at the
differences in the Pharo packages.

Michael

Bèrto ëd Sèra

Re: [squeak-dev] Re: Pasting unicode (was Re: Pharo:: Re: Cuis update)

In reply to this post by Andreas.Raab

Hi Andreas!

What's the image you are using? I had problems in Ubuntu as well, and it simply was Latin accented chars. If we state a candidate image for reference I can map the problems on it.

Berto

2009/4/17 Andreas Raab <[hidden email]>

BTW, the situation doesn't seem to be quite as dire as one might assume. Attached are two screenshots which were created by:
a) Installing Dejavu first (download, click, choose "install font")
b) Going to ru.wikipedia.org and el.wikipedia.org
c) Copying and pasting the first article from the front page
That is about the extent of functionality that I can verify and it does seem to work allright except from the Character cr glyph displayed in Dejavu (I'm not sure where that comes from).

Perhaps half of the problems could be solved simply by installing Dejavu by default?

Cheers,
- Andreas

Andreas Raab wrote:

Bert Freudenberg wrote:

Err, we know quite well about these problems. Typing unicode chars don't work because the utf32 charcode is not used by the released image. To paste unicode text on the Mac you would need the image support for the extendend clipboard plugin. But even if typing or pasting works, the fonts only cover the latin-1 range, not full unicode. Neither Freetype nor HostFonts nor Pango support is in the released image, nor did we standardize on one.

All of these issues have been solved already, but did not make it into a release afaik.

Interesting. Goes to show that I haven't been paying much attention. But if the fixes are there (can you send some pointers?) it sounds like a perfect candidate to assemble those into 3.11 and get this stuff straight. For fonts, there is Dejavu (http://dejavu-fonts.org/) which is based on the Bitstream Vera family and should make for a virtually identical replacement.

Cheers,
- Andreas

hernan.wilkinson

Re: [squeak-dev] Pharo:: Re: Cuis update

In reply to this post by hernan.wilkinson

well... maybe something like this is better:

1) From a pharo/squeak image, for each class we want to merge (ie. the morph hierarchy)

1.a) for each method of that class

1.a.a) compare the method with the 3.7 version (asuming cuis started from 3.7) and cuis

1.a.b) if the are equal, continue

1.a.c) if they are different

1.a.c.a) if the one that changed is the pharo/squeak version, do nothing

1.a.c.b) if the one that changed is the cuis version, load it

1.a.c.c) if both changes, ask a human to merge them :-)

1.a.c) if the method is in pharo/squeak but not in cuis and does not have senders in pharo/squeak, remove the method

1.a.d) if the class is in pharo/squeak but not in cuis and does not have references, remove it

1.a.e) same thing with instance variables as with methods (this should be done before of merging methods)

I did this once with VisualAge/Envy and worked pretty well... anyway, I'll see if I can write something just to see how many differences are...

Hernan

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 11:20 PM, Hernan Wilkinson <[hidden email]> wrote:

isn't it there a way to try it automatically? it is Smalltalk... I'm not saying it is going to work 100% but...
Maybe something like this:
1) Load each method of cuis that is different or does not exist in pharo/squeak

2) For each method that is in pharo/squeak that is not is cuis and it does not have reference, remove it
3) ssomething similar for variables, classes, etc
4) Try pharo/squeak and see how it works! :-)

Just an idea...

Hernan.

On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Sophie (itsme213) <[hidden email]> wrote:

Is there any chance the Pharo folks would be open to exploring whether Cuis
can be used as a base for their work? It might let them focus on what they
*really* want for Pharo.

Looking at the Pharo milestones
http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/Milestones I see many not-yet-done
things that overlap Cuis and that are already done in Cuis:
- default in-image fonts
- etoys removal
- re-org MorphicExtras
- remove SqueakMap & Installer
- License clean

... plus Cuis size & responsiveness is great :-):

In the medium+ term I suspect it would speed up their progress.

If they are, is there any chance Juan would be open to helping them get
there?

Of course given the moving parts and people this may be a silly question,
but I just thought I would ask.

My 2c -- Sophie

"Juan Vuletich" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
news:[hidden email]...
> Hi Folks,
>
> I've updated Cuis to #0182. I included a couple of fixes to issues in
> Polygons and Curves found by Jerome, and a new keyboard focus indicator.
> (No more annoying flashing!)
>
> You can download www.jvuletich.org/Cuis/Cuis1.0-0182.zip . In that folder
> there is also a zip with change sets that could be useful for other Squeak
> distributions, and text descriptions of them.
>
> Cheers,
> Juan Vuletich
>
> Ps: I also updated the 'About' text as follows:
>
> About Cuis
>
> Cuis is a Smalltalk environment derived from Squeak (www.squeak.org). Main
> project web is at www.jvuletich.org/Cuis
>
> The main idea behind Cuis is to avoid unneeded complexity. Why? Because
> complexity puts a limit to the level of understanding of the system a
> person might reach, and therefore limits the things that can be done. Dan
> Ingalls says all this in "Design Principles Behind Smalltalk" (a must
> read!).
>
> My passion is about finding the essence of ideas. In this regard I feel
> close to Alan's "Fundamentals of new Computing" ideas. But as I'm not a
> researcher, and I want a working system now, I am trying to distill the
> essence of Smalltalk-80 in Squeak drop by drop.
>
> Some of the main ideas and objectives for Cuis are:
>
> - Close to Smalltalk-80 and Dan Ingalls' ideas
> - Include only kernel functionality. Remove stuff considered optional
> - Included stuff should be in very good shape.
> - Include a greatly reduced version of Morphic as the main UI
> - Easy to fix and extend
> - Share fixes and enhancements with Squeak
> - Stable. Smalltalk kernel should not change much
> - Compatible to a reasonable degree with packages intended for other
> Squeak distributions
> - Lead by Juan Vuletich (jmv) after these principles
>
> What is the audience? Cuis should be the Smalltalk of choice to:
>
> - Smalltalkers who want a simpler system
> - Teachers teaching Smalltalk
> - People learning Smalltalk
> - Developers working for devices with little memory or CPU power
> - People wanting to experiment with new directions in language design, UI
> frameworks, etc
> - People wanting a reasonable kernel on which to build optional packages
> - People wanting a nice looking ide that is also portable
>
> Cuis owes its existence to Squeak and the Squeak community. We don't want
> to form a separate user community. We believe that the Squeak community is
> the natural place for people using the various Squeak distributions and
> derivatives. We want to share code and ideas with other Squeak
> distributions, including the official one.
>
> License
>
> Cuis is distributed subject to the MIT License, as in
> http://www.opensource.org/licenses/mit-license.php . Any contribution
> submitted for incorporation into or for distribution with Cuis shall be
> presumed subject to the same license.
>
> Portions of Cuis are copyrighted works of many contributors to Squeak,
> Cuis and related projects.
>
>
>

Bèrto ëd Sèra

Re: [squeak-dev] Pasting unicode (was Re: Pharo:: Re: Cuis update)

In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek

Hi Janko!

I'm not quite sure that you can make Unicode support optional, that is,
loadable as a separate package. Unicode is roughly made of two things:

There is also another issue: complexity. Loadable things are often far to be straightforward as it may seem: you often end up in having mutually excluding loadable packages. OTOH a multi-byte string is less performing than a single-byte string and many users who live in the ASCII side of the planet may not be willing to pay the performance fee.

But... this is SmallTalk, isn't it? Why can't we load the unicode thing everywhere and use polymorphism so that if I load ASCII data it performs as ASCII data? It sounds more like SmallTalk to me. And a thing that is everywhere is usually much better debugged.

Berto

123