[squeak-dev] [Election 2008] More answers collected!

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[squeak-dev] [Election 2008] More answers collected!

Göran Krampe
Hi all!

Ok, I just collected Dan's, Giovanni's and Tim's answers to the Q&A onto
the  page:

     http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/6029

I am also aware that Andrew will try to get his answers posted as soon as
he can and if I am not mistaken Edgar is unfortunately moving and may be
offline for yet awhile.

If I have missed answers for question 11 - please send me private email.
It seems Tim and Yoshiki haven't answered it - apart from Andrew and
Edgar.

regards, Göran


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[squeak-dev] [Election 2008] More questions answered

Prof. Andrew P. Black
First, I have to apologize for not being on time with my election campaigning.  Too many things to do for my "day job", and some unexpected medical visits last week ...

Before I answer the questions, let me say how excited I am that we have such a great slate of candidates running for the board.  I'm willing to serve again because I feel that having spent a year getting "up to speed" on the issues, I owe it to the community to spend another year capitalizing on what I've learned.   However, with such strong candidates running, if I'm not reelected, I will be happy that Squeak is in good hands.

Now for the questions, with thanks to Goran for assembling them.

1. Approximately, how much time do you plan on spending on Squeak during the coming year (in any kind of unit)?

A fair bit, but focussed on my teaching and writing new chapters for a successor to the Squeak book.  That means a couple of hours per week, which may go up to a day per week if I'm teaching with Squeak.  But that's not time that in which I can do what I want; my "free" time is going to be limited.   I don't even have time to read this list regularly any more.  I have been a pretty regular attendee at board meetings, and will keep that up if re-elected.

2. What are in your mind the three most important issues (not necessarily technical) we need to address in the coming year?

I think that moving forward means getting us an equivalent of Linus.  Dan Ingalls played that role for many years: he gave Squeak a conceptual coherence.   Getting to that point will require some money, and raising money will require getting the licensing situation cleaned-up.  So I'm with Tim, Bert, Craig, Igor, Randal and others that we have to start with licensing.

3. What is your view on fund raising and how any such collected money should be dealt with?

As Randal says, needs must be identified before one can try to raise money to meet them.  The two main sources will be foundations and companies.  Money is out there if we can paint a vision of where we want to go.  Unfortunately, getting the image cleaned up and our processes organized are not fundable activities.  Developing a concurrent Smalltalk, for example, might be: I mean a parallel VM and an enhanced language with real concurrency primitives (I don't count Semaphores!)

4. What is your view on the ongoing process of making SqueakFoundation a not-for-profit legal entity?

Craig has done the lion's share of the work here, and deserves a lot of the credit.  He has summarized the situation nicely.  We've been pickup up a lot of downed logs and finding some creepy crawly critters under them, and the "clean" version of Squeak may not be as full of features as we had once hoped, but I think that we will get there.

5. Do you think the Team model is appropriate for organising our efforts or should we come up with something else?

Teams are the only way that things get done.  That said, the release team has become a point of contention.  The fault is not with the team members, but with the process.  It reminds me of when I worked for Digital: one day someone observed that no one had ever managed two releases of VMS.  Sometimes the release manager quit the company, sometimes they had a nervous breakdown, sometimes they just refused to ever do it again.  I think that one release team leader may have even committed suicide. 

XP teams avoid the stress and work of doing a release by releasing all the time.  One of my frustrations with Squeak is the enormous amount of work required to get a fix or enhancement into the release—and I'm not talking about the programming and the testing.  So, I think  the problem is not so much with the teams, but with the task that we ask some of the teams to undertake.   If the process requires super-human effort, we can either look for super-humans to undertake it, or we can change the process.

6. Do you have any specific views on how the Squeak board and the Squeak community should work together with the Squeak satellite communities (Croquet, Seaside, Sophie, Squeakland, Scratch etc), also referred to as "stakeholder communities"?

I see that our role is having a stable release that keeps getting better all the time.  I don't mean more features: I mean more stability, more reliability, fewer bugs, and better programming tools.  And mechanisms that make it easy for the stakeholders to migrate to the next, better, Squeak, rather that making things so difficult for them that they say: "my project is based on Squeak 3.8, and it ain't gonna move", because each time that I move, it costs me bigtime.

7. The squeak.org release is our most important asset. How do you see it evolving over the next few years?

Craig and Tim have already pointed out that the community, not the release, is our greatest asset.  Look at the discussion on squeak-dev, and compare it with almost any other internet community!  I disagree with Tim, though: we don't need revolution.  We do need to decide where to go, but we will get there by gradual change, not by burning the disk packs and starting over.  Nevertheless, when we are done, none of the original code may be left!

I think that my most important contribution recently has been the work that I did with Oscar, Stéphan, Damien et al on the book "Squeak by Example".  If we are going to gain mindshare, we have to create a path for newbies to get into Squeak.  It has to be easy to start developing, which means that the tools have to work, and that there has to be documentation.  My greatest frustrations in writing the book were the following.  First,  that I didn't know what I could assume was in the image that the reader was using!  The "standard" release didn't have most of the development tools that I needed, and those that were there mostly didn't work.   We even had trouble amongst ourselves (the authors) deciding on which version to use, and when to go back and revise a chapter because the image had been revised.  

My second frustration was that once I found a bug — and it might be a trivial bug, like a tool being called one thing in a menu, a different thing in a flap, and a third thing in the code — it was impossible for me to fix it.  Documenting a system shows up bugs like this, because you have to explain them to the reader.  It's faster and better to just fix them!  But only if it's possible to release the fix into the common code base with one click.  A squeak.org release that fixes these frustrations would make me very happy.

8. Do you have any thoughts on the current relicensing effort?

I've never been very exited about licenses, but that's because neither I nor my employer have any money, so we aren't worth suing.  In the real world, we just have to make the relicensing happen: it has taken almost all of the board's time over the last year, and will take more.  Kudos to Craig, who has done the lion's share.

9. How would you like Squeak to be positioned in the open source world in year 2012?

My interest in Squeak is in propagating the Smalltalk programming style.  This would be easier if Squeak were perceived as being useful for "real" applications.  Students do program better in Squeak than in Java, but it's hard to get them to want to try to learn Squeak, because they think that Java is "real", and Squeak is "a toy".  Seaside is a great step in the right direction.  A framework that makes it easy to build a shrinkwrapped app would be another great step.  A framework that make Squeak a viable scripting language, maybe combining some of the ideas from F-script with real programmability (new classes, subclases and methods).  Any of these has the potential to turn Squeak into a better Ruby.

10. What do you see as the overall role of the board?

I think that the board should be more active in providing technical leadership.  We have had a very "hands off" approach over the last year, focussing more on licensing.   Of course, the community may not want to follow where the board leads.  That's effectively a vote of no confidence: it means that you elect a new board.  

Beyond that, the board has to raise money to make the vision real.  

11. What actions would you take to promote Squeak as an environment for professional software development?

First, a solid core with excellent development tools that don't give you walkbacks all the time.  Then, and I hate to say this, a native windowing package for the major platforms.  I think that if we want professional developers to use Squeak produce applications for Windows, or for MacOS, then the end product has to look and behave like a WIndows or MacOS product.   Once we have this, Squeak will get the documentation, the tutorials, more books, more consultants, etc., because they will be able to make a living out of it.

That's all folks (woops, wrong cartoon). 

Andrew






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[squeak-dev] Re: [Election 2008] More questions answered

Andreas.Raab
Andrew P. Black wrote:

> 6. Do you have any specific views on how the Squeak board and the Squeak
> community should work together with the Squeak satellite communities
> (Croquet, Seaside, Sophie, Squeakland, Scratch etc), also referred to as
> "stakeholder communities"?
>
> I see that our role is having a stable release that keeps getting better
> all the time.  I don't mean more features: I mean more stability,
> more reliability, fewer bugs, and better programming tools.  And
> mechanisms that make it easy for the stakeholders to migrate to the
> next, better, Squeak, rather that making things so difficult for them
> that they say: "my project is based on Squeak 3.8, and it ain't gonna
> move", because each time that I move, it costs me bigtime.

For obvious reasons that resonates with me. Can you identify any
concrete steps that would help achieve this goal? Put differently: How
would *you* go about it concretely?

Cheers,
   - Andreas

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Re: [squeak-dev] [Election 2008] More questions answered

Randal L. Schwartz
In reply to this post by Prof. Andrew P. Black
>>>>> "Andrew" == Andrew P Black <[hidden email]> writes:

Andrew> 3. What is your view on fund raising and how any such collected money
Andrew> should be dealt with?

Andrew> As Randal says, needs must be identified before one can try to raise
Andrew> money to meet them.  The two main sources will be foundations and
Andrew> companies.  Money is out there if we can paint a vision of where we
Andrew> want to go.  Unfortunately, getting the image cleaned up and our
Andrew> processes organized are not fundable activities.  Developing a
Andrew> concurrent Smalltalk, for example, might be: I mean a parallel VM and
Andrew> an enhanced language with real concurrency primitives (I don't count
Andrew> Semaphores!)

Since you invoked my name (grin), I feel a comment on your comment is
appropriate.

You say that "getting the image cleaned up" is not a fundable activity.

Here's how to think about fundraising.  Who would benefit from a cleaned-up
image?  It's not the empty set.

In fact, one group that clearly would benefit from a cleaned up image *and*
has a commercial interest (therefore, funding) is the ISVs of the world.  Like
Stonehenge, since we intend on using Squeak for our clients.  If the image
were cleaned up, our work would be easier, and we could sell Squeak as part of
the solution more easily into our customer base.

So, you hit the ISVs up for sponsorship towards getting the image cleaned up,
in exchange for a nice "thanks to our sponsors" page somewhere googleable, and
it's win-win.  ISVs get a visibility kickback, and you get money to pay people
to clean up the image.

And it doesn't even need to be monetary.  Suppose Stonehenge paid me for a
month to spend hunkered down cleaning things up.  If that got mentioned in
some sponsors page, I'm sure I could get the Stonehenge board to approve that.

This is what I mean about funding.  Don't think of it all as looking for
501(c)3 charitable individual contributions.  Look for corporate sponsorship
and in-kind donations.  They're the real source of funding.  We've seen that
over and over again in the Perl community.  And you *don't* need to be a
charitable organization for those.  You just need to be organized as a
non-profit, usually.  Sure, the Conservancy deal is interesting, but
there's really no need to wait.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

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Re: [squeak-dev] [Election 2008] More questions answered

Randal L. Schwartz
>>>>> "Randal" == Randal L Schwartz <[hidden email]> writes:

Randal> In fact, one group that clearly would benefit from a cleaned up image
Randal> *and* has a commercial interest (therefore, funding) is the ISVs of
Randal> the world.

Argh.  Don't post before caffiene.  Wrong TLA.  s/ISV/VAR/g. :)

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

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[squeak-dev] Re: [Election 2008] More questions answered

Klaus D. Witzel
In reply to this post by Randal L. Schwartz
On Wed, 05 Mar 2008 16:23:26 +0100, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:

>>>>>> "Andrew" == Andrew P Black <[hidden email]> writes:
>
> Andrew> 3. What is your view on fund raising and how any such collected  
> money
> Andrew> should be dealt with?
>
> Andrew> As Randal says, needs must be identified before one can try to  
> raise
> Andrew> money to meet them.  The two main sources will be foundations and
> Andrew> companies.  Money is out there if we can paint a vision of where  
> we
> Andrew> want to go.  Unfortunately, getting the image cleaned up and our
> Andrew> processes organized are not fundable activities.  Developing a
> Andrew> concurrent Smalltalk, for example, might be: I mean a parallel  
> VM and
> Andrew> an enhanced language with real concurrency primitives (I don't  
> count
> Andrew> Semaphores!)
>
> Since you invoked my name (grin), I feel a comment on your comment is
> appropriate.
>
> You say that "getting the image cleaned up" is not a fundable activity.
>
> Here's how to think about fundraising.  Who would benefit from a  
> cleaned-up
> image?  It's not the empty set.
>
> In fact, one group that clearly would benefit from a cleaned up image  
> *and*
> has a commercial interest (therefore, funding) is the ISVs of the  
> world.  Like
> Stonehenge, since we intend on using Squeak for our clients.  If the  
> image
> were cleaned up, our work would be easier, and we could sell Squeak as  
> part of
> the solution more easily into our customer base.
>
> So, you hit the ISVs up for sponsorship towards getting the image  
> cleaned up,
> in exchange for a nice "thanks to our sponsors" page somewhere  
> googleable, and
> it's win-win.  ISVs get a visibility kickback, and you get money to pay  
> people
> to clean up the image.
>
> And it doesn't even need to be monetary.  Suppose Stonehenge paid me for  
> a
> month to spend hunkered down cleaning things up.  If that got mentioned  
> in
> some sponsors page, I'm sure I could get the Stonehenge board to approve  
> that.

That's really a good direction; can we come back to this after 2008's  
board election.

/Klaus

> This is what I mean about funding.  Don't think of it all as looking for
> 501(c)3 charitable individual contributions.  Look for corporate  
> sponsorship
> and in-kind donations.  They're the real source of funding.  We've seen  
> that
> over and over again in the Perl community.  And you *don't* need to be a
> charitable organization for those.  You just need to be organized as a
> non-profit, usually.  Sure, the Conservancy deal is interesting, but
> there's really no need to wait.
>