[squeak-dev] Funding (was: What Constitutes a Complete and Final Release?)

I understand entirely ;-)

On 07.04.2008, at 17:02, tim Rowledge wrote:
> I think there is a bit of a logical problem here ins that if the  
> system *didn't* have 'all that junk' the immediate result would be  
> complaints that 'it doesn't have all that useful stuff like other  
> systems'.


IMHO in other systems the 'junk' is simply not that much in-your-face  
as in the SystemBrowser. It's hidden in library code that you never  
look at except for its documented API.

- Bert -

On 8-Apr-08, at 3:09 PM, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

Interesting way of looking at it. Perhaps it might be sensible to have  
a browser for typical use that shows much less detail of the 'kernel'  
classes so as to cause less fear and concern for less experienced  
developers. We did something along those lines for LearningWorks with  
reasonable success.

We'd need to actually *have* a 'documented API' of course....

tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
Strange OpCodes: SDL: Shift Disk Left

+1

On Apr 8, 2008, at 6:03 PM, cdrick wrote:
I hate to add more noise to this, but +1 from me, too.  It'd be  
interesting if the entire initial Squeak image UI could be made to  
feel more like a "traditional" language IDE by default where you  
primarily see *your* project code/classes with everything else  
available by more indirect means.

l8r
Sean

2008/4/9 tim Rowledge <[hidden email]>:
This, i think, could be achieved by introducing a some kind of
view-sets, where developer can choose
sets of classes/packages visible by browser.
Sometimes(All the time) its more convenient to work only with
particular set of classes, so all commands like
senders/implementors/references etc will use only given set for
searching.
Btw, this was discussed previously.

>
>  tim
>  --
>  tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
>  Strange OpCodes: SDL: Shift Disk Left
>
>
>
>



--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Hello Sean,

SH> I hate to add more noise to this, but +1 from me, too.  It'd be  
SH> interesting if the entire initial Squeak image UI could be made to
SH> feel more like a "traditional" language IDE by default where you  
SH> primarily see *your* project code/classes with everything else  
SH> available by more indirect means.

you would need Tric Refactoring Browser by Cees DeGroot which starts
empty. "Find class" adds all classes of that classes category and right
clicking on a category brings "hide this category" and "hide all" menu
options.

I'm on 3.8 and can't tell if the switch to OB might stop this feature.
This and the tracing messages browser from Chris Muller (hierarchical
cross class view of an algorithm in a single window) help me to get
up to speed with projects I had to abandon for a month or two.


Cheers,

Herbert                                        

Actually, there is OB-Enhancement that helps in that respect.

If you have the last squeak-dev and squeak web... Try Smart Group
Browser (open menu or first iconic button).

David is the guy who do this browser. I'm sure he'd love more feedback ;)
It combines a package view (with associated MC commands) and a group
view (there is a switch) called smart group, that does the same as the
Tric Refractoring browser.

You should give a try. Only problem is it feels a bit slow, but I
really like using it. You can create new groups and then add nearly
whatever you want in it (classes, packages, class categories, method,
etc...) + there is a group for the results of classes search from the
upper entry (try typin Coll*Tes in the mercury panel, and go to smart
group.

I use it nearly all the time, even if a bit slow somtimes but this is
work in progress...

Cheers,

Cédrick

ps: but still, hiding some 'squeak mecanics' to the average user would
be a good thing...

On Tue, 2008-04-08 at 23:54 +0200, Michael Rueger wrote:
> Gary Chambers wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps a friendly "wizard" upon stating of the fresh image may be
> > appropriate. It could use Universes, perhaps, a meta-universe of
> > high-level choices ("have fun" "develop" etc.).
>
> "have fun" should be enabled by default, right now it seems to be
> disabled ;-)
>
Do you know how to enable it again? It seems to have disappeared
from the Preferences completely. :)

Norbert

Le lundi 07 avril 2008 à 17:04 -0700, Randal L. Schwartz a écrit : I am tempted to think SqF board should not be afraid to choose direction
leading to incompatibility in the API, especially for a better Squeak
providing solution to large Squeak community user. Project like Gnome
broke API several time, some lib becoming obsolete, but Gnome is very
successful and developers of Gnome applications get used to port their
application to new API.

Hilaire

> I am tempted to think SqF board should not be afraid to choose direction
> leading to incompatibility in the API, especially for a better Squeak
> providing solution to large Squeak community user. Project like Gnome
> broke API several time

At the binary level, they did so only once, with the second being
planned.  The first digit in the version number identifies the ABI version.

That said, I agree with you.

Paolo

>>>>> "Hilaire" == Hilaire Fernandes <[hidden email]> writes:

Hilaire> I am tempted to think SqF board should not be afraid to choose direction
Hilaire> leading to incompatibility in the API, especially for a better Squeak
Hilaire> providing solution to large Squeak community user.

I wouldn't categorize it as "afraid" as much as "must weigh the cost/benefit
ratio", if you'll forgive me for sounding like a manager for a moment.

I'm for optimizing Squeak... if the benefits clearly outweigh the costs.  Even
if that means more formal forks of Squeak, such as has already happened with
OpenCroquet.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

One thing that really bothered me when first starting out with Squeak, was the requirement for modifying code in order add 'self halt' to work with the debugger.
I still find that to be bothersome. Intuitively it seems to me that breakpoints should have no way to modify code.

At the early stages, I wanted to add a few breakpoints so I could more easily follow along with what was happening and in no time at all, I would have lost where I had modified code to add the halts. I wanted to keep everything pristine so I could be absolutely sure I had done nothing to negatively affect Squeak's operation. I had a great uneasiness that I would mistakenly delete a line or add something incorrect somewhere never to be found again. The only solution was to quit without saving but that lost everything I had done in the Workspace and I didn't know enough yet to easily save and restore my work.  

It was great to be able to see and modify anything anywhere but along with that came the great fear I would mess things up. Even adding a method for learning purposes somewhere in the system was problematic since I did not know about or understand ChangeSets and could not easily remember where the change was done or ever find it again. I desperately wanted a way to clearly know, 'here's what I have done', and if I remove all that I have done, I in no way will have affected what came with the fresh image.

It's still somewhat of a worry in fact, therefore I am encouraged by Keith's Installer which allows more easily starting over from fresh and getting back to my previous state of the image.

Ken G. Brown

Am 09.04.2008 um 18:59 schrieb Ken G. Brown:

> One thing that really bothered me when first starting out with  
> Squeak, was the requirement for modifying code in order add 'self  
> halt' to work with the debugger.
> I still find that to be bothersome. Intuitively it seems to me that  
> breakpoints should have no way to modify code.
>
Yes, that is a point that annoys me, too.
Even Dolphin Smalltalk has this drawback, but there is a sophisticated  
solution in Tools+ (by Solutions Software) called Method Spies.

Andreas

On 9-Apr-08, at 12:03 PM, Andreas Wacknitz wrote:

Don't forget the 'toggle break point' menu item. It could do with  
improvements (like a way to return any and all breakpoints to normal,  
some indication of a method having a breakpoint in the broswer etc)  
but it is very useful.


tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
Useful Latin Phrases:- Utinam barbari spatium proprium tuum invadant!  
= May barbarians invade your personal space!

Paolo Bonzini a écrit :
Well I did experience it with DrGeo with Gnome MDI library becoming
obsolete. Then I ported to GTK+ only libs.

Hilaire

On 09.04.2008, at 12:03, Andreas Wacknitz wrote:

Actually, Squeak has break points. Click on a method in the system  
browser, and choose "toggle break on entry".

Problem is the highlighting in the method list has been broken for  
some while, methods with break points used to be marked.

- Bert -

On 09.04.2008, at 12:11, tim Rowledge wrote:
>
> Don't forget the 'toggle break point' menu item. It could do with  
> improvements (like a way to return any and all breakpoints to normal


You mean "BreakpointManager clear"?

- Bert -

On 9-Apr-08, at 12:14 PM, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

>
> On 09.04.2008, at 12:11, tim Rowledge wrote:
>>
>> Don't forget the 'toggle break point' menu item. It could do with  
>> improvements (like a way to return any and all breakpoints to normal
>
>
> You mean "BreakpointManager clear"?
That would probably do it; I'd never noticed it. I should stick in my  
world menu or whatever.

tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
"Bother," said Pooh, reading his bank statement from Barings.

> > You mean "BreakpointManager clear"?
> >
>  That would probably do it; I'd never noticed it. I should stick in my world
> menu or whatever.

Just OOC, as a bit of a Squeak newbie, is there a list of these kinds
of tips anywhere?  I mean, the Swiki obviously exists, but is this
recorded there, someplace?  Because it's these bits of communal
knowledge that are so very useful... :)

Brett.