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[squeak-dev] Fwd: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects - SoC

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Diogenes Moreira

[squeak-dev] Fwd: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects - SoC

HI folks:

In the follow mail, you can see a typical question...and answer...

In my point of view, is very important support projects like Seaside or SqueakGTK (with Esteban Lorenzano's Approach) to make Squeak easier and more interesting to Newbies and the common people, and the end, the Following Question will be a Obviously answer "Squeak"

Regards.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Diogenes Moreira <[hidden email]>
Date: Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects
To: "A friendly place to get answers to even the most basic questions about Squeak." <[hidden email]>

Hi:

Obviously, you can.

But, VW have tools and things to make easy the development and deploy.
Some thing, like UIPaint, don't have your replacement in Squeak, but I don't find any stopper to develop in Squeak.

The only point to review is this: Your application always will be in a World (Squeak Enviroment),

Here you are some tips.
       First Tip: make 2 images, one for development and other to production. In the production Image only load your needed package. When finish you development make a file out or use Monticello to export your classes to you production image.
       Second Tip: You can package your images like Lukas Reggie do in Seaside One lick.
       Third Tip: You can customize the UI in your application like mac with Pinesoft package.

Regards

On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 10:08 PM, RENE PLOURDE <[hidden email]> wrote:

Can one use Squeak to build and sell applications? My wife is a
musician and has some ideas for a Music Theory Application and asked
if I could build it. The choices seem to be between Squeak and
VisualWorks.

If one built an application with Squeak are there tools for packaging
it so that you only ship executables and not the entire development
environment?

Thanks for any information you can provide.

Rene'
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

johnmci

Re: [squeak-dev] Fwd: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects - SoC

If you are going to use VW the question then is what you have to pay cincom if you have a commercial application

On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Diogenes Moreira <[hidden email]> wrote:

HI folks:

In the follow mail, you can see a typical question...and answer...

In my point of view, is very important support projects like Seaside or SqueakGTK (with Esteban Lorenzano's Approach) to make Squeak easier and more interesting to Newbies and the common people, and the end, the Following Question will be a Obviously answer "Squeak"

Regards.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Diogenes Moreira <[hidden email]>
Date: Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects
To: "A friendly place to get answers to even the most basic questions about Squeak." <[hidden email]>

Hi:

Obviously, you can.

But, VW have tools and things to make easy the development and deploy.
Some thing, like UIPaint, don't have your replacement in Squeak, but I don't find any stopper to develop in Squeak.

The only point to review is this: Your application always will be in a World (Squeak Enviroment),

Here you are some tips.
       First Tip: make 2 images, one for development and other to production. In the production Image only load your needed package. When finish you development make a file out or use Monticello to export your classes to you production image.
       Second Tip: You can package your images like Lukas Reggie do in Seaside One lick.
       Third Tip: You can customize the UI in your application like mac with Pinesoft package.

Regards



On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 10:08 PM, RENE PLOURDE <[hidden email]> wrote:
Can one use Squeak to build and sell applications? My wife is a
musician and has some ideas for a Music Theory Application and asked
if I could build it. The choices seem to be between Squeak and
VisualWorks.

If one built an application with Squeak are there tools for packaging
it so that you only ship executables and not the entire development
environment?

Thanks for any information you can provide.

Rene'
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

Diogenes Moreira

Re: [squeak-dev] Fwd: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects - SoC

Yes off course, but, the people out of squeak community don't see with good eyes a platform whom don't have tools to make "Common Applications"( For me a Morphic Application is good, but the common user have requirements like "I wanna my name in the titlebar" )

I'm fully agree with you, and don't see any reason to pay to Cincom, but the Facts are the Fact, and the common people yet choise VW becouse the application's look & feel are more "Common".

Please, don't get me wrong, I'm very happy with Squeak.....and I'm wrote this mail because I hope It be useful
.

Regards

On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 4:07 PM, John M McIntosh <[hidden email]> wrote:

If you are going to use VW the question then is what you have to pay cincom if you have a commercial application

On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Diogenes Moreira <[hidden email]> wrote:

HI folks:

In the follow mail, you can see a typical question...and answer...

In my point of view, is very important support projects like Seaside or SqueakGTK (with Esteban Lorenzano's Approach) to make Squeak easier and more interesting to Newbies and the common people, and the end, the Following Question will be a Obviously answer "Squeak"

Regards.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Diogenes Moreira <[hidden email]>
Date: Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects
To: "A friendly place to get answers to even the most basic questions about Squeak." <[hidden email]>

Hi:

Obviously, you can.

But, VW have tools and things to make easy the development and deploy.
Some thing, like UIPaint, don't have your replacement in Squeak, but I don't find any stopper to develop in Squeak.

The only point to review is this: Your application always will be in a World (Squeak Enviroment),

Here you are some tips.
       First Tip: make 2 images, one for development and other to production. In the production Image only load your needed package. When finish you development make a file out or use Monticello to export your classes to you production image.
       Second Tip: You can package your images like Lukas Reggie do in Seaside One lick.
       Third Tip: You can customize the UI in your application like mac with Pinesoft package.

Regards



On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 10:08 PM, RENE PLOURDE <[hidden email]> wrote:
Can one use Squeak to build and sell applications? My wife is a
musician and has some ideas for a Music Theory Application and asked
if I could build it. The choices seem to be between Squeak and
VisualWorks.

If one built an application with Squeak are there tools for packaging
it so that you only ship executables and not the entire development
environment?

Thanks for any information you can provide.

Rene'
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

Schwab,Wilhelm K

Re: [squeak-dev] Fwd: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects - SoC

In reply to this post by Diogenes Moreira

As others stated earlier, Pinesoft is giving us some great options, at
least within the single Squeak window. For deployment, you might be
better off with one layout morph in the main window, and then periodic
modal "dialogs" (system windows with appropriately modal loop) to keep
the user out of trouble. Relying on SystemWindow for end users
effectively creates an MDI interface, which is often not what one
wants.

At the risk of getting an over-use injury from beating the dead horse,
the real problems are with feel; the look of Squeak was improving even
before Pinesoft announced their work. Please think about it, and I
suspect you will agree that the reason you think users would take to a
VW based app is not how it looks, but how it feels/works. However
unimaginative they might be, the conventions that exist (and have become
hard-wired into our expectations) were derived from usability labs
populated with "average" people. Watch Joe Accountant try to do some
work and see were he stumbles. Hmmm, he expects that when he releases
the mouse button, the item will be selected, and he wants the keyboard
input to go there even after he pushed the mouse cursor out of the way.
FWIW, it appears the MS did a lot of this work back in the days when
they actually listened to customers. I mention the drop-down selection
mainly because MS has started screwing that up in recent years :)

Look at it another way: if users cared what something looks like, why
did XP sell so well - talk about UGLY...

Bill

===============================
"Diogenes Moreira" <diogenes.moreira@...> diogenes.moreira@... wrote:

Yes off course, but, the people out of squeak community don't see with
good eyes a platform whom don't have tools to make "Common
Applications"( For me a Morphic Application is good, but the common user
have requirements like "I wanna my name in the titlebar" )

I'm fully agree with you, and don't see any reason to pay to Cincom,
but the Facts are the Fact, and the common people yet choise VW becouse
the application's look & feel are more "Common".

Please, don't get me wrong, I'm very happy with Squeak.....and I'm
wrote this mail because I hope It be useful
.

Regards

Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
University of Florida
Department of Anesthesiology
PO Box 100254
Gainesville, FL 32610-0254

Email: [hidden email]
Tel: (352) 846-1285
FAX: (352) 392-7029

giorgiof

Re: [squeak-dev] Fwd: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects - SoC

In reply to this post by Diogenes Moreira

Hi,
sorry to jump on the list.
I'm a long time smalltalker, I like Squeak, but I come from VisualSmalltalk, and used a lot of commercial smalltalk, actually most of work done on Cincom VW.
Using VW or Squeak or other dialects is a choice, where one decide if paying for a commercial product or staying on the opensource, depending on the cost/value in his particular case.
I find really strange that people should be sorry for thinking about using a commercial product.
I want to sell my product, if I think I have advantages on using a commercial one, why not? If I think I don't have advantages, then the open source version will be fine.

If I don't wanna sell the product, but release it free, then both VW and squeak are free, so, no question, just use the best, independent to price that is zero on both cases. In any case, use smalltalk, whatever you want.

ciao

Giorgio

BTW: the look is not the best reason I have for using visualworks. I really like what is possible to do with squeak, in term of less conventional UI.

On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 7:37 PM, Diogenes Moreira <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yes off course, but, the people out of squeak community don't see with good eyes a platform whom don't have tools to make "Common Applications"( For me a Morphic Application is good, but the common user have requirements like "I wanna my name in the titlebar" )

I'm fully agree with you, and don't see any reason to pay to Cincom, but the Facts are the Fact, and the common people yet choise VW becouse the application's look & feel are more "Common".

Please, don't get me wrong, I'm very happy with Squeak.....and I'm wrote this mail because I hope It be useful
.

Regards

On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 4:07 PM, John M McIntosh <[hidden email]> wrote:

If you are going to use VW the question then is what you have to pay cincom if you have a commercial application

On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Diogenes Moreira <[hidden email]> wrote:

HI folks:

In the follow mail, you can see a typical question...and answer...

In my point of view, is very important support projects like Seaside or SqueakGTK (with Esteban Lorenzano's Approach) to make Squeak easier and more interesting to Newbies and the common people, and the end, the Following Question will be a Obviously answer "Squeak"

Regards.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Diogenes Moreira <[hidden email]>
Date: Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects
To: "A friendly place to get answers to even the most basic questions about Squeak." <[hidden email]>

Hi:

Obviously, you can.

But, VW have tools and things to make easy the development and deploy.
Some thing, like UIPaint, don't have your replacement in Squeak, but I don't find any stopper to develop in Squeak.

The only point to review is this: Your application always will be in a World (Squeak Enviroment),

Here you are some tips.
       First Tip: make 2 images, one for development and other to production. In the production Image only load your needed package. When finish you development make a file out or use Monticello to export your classes to you production image.
       Second Tip: You can package your images like Lukas Reggie do in Seaside One lick.
       Third Tip: You can customize the UI in your application like mac with Pinesoft package.

Regards



On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 10:08 PM, RENE PLOURDE <[hidden email]> wrote:
Can one use Squeak to build and sell applications? My wife is a
musician and has some ideas for a Music Theory Application and asked
if I could build it. The choices seem to be between Squeak and
VisualWorks.

If one built an application with Squeak are there tools for packaging
it so that you only ship executables and not the entire development
environment?

Thanks for any information you can provide.

Rene'
_______________________________________________
Beginners mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

garduino

Re: [squeak-dev] Fwd: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects - SoC

Good points Giorgio. Myself used also Dolphin Smalltalk, even buyed a
PRO version, but.....and I think is a big but, I feel difficult to me
use different flavors, because can't stay on top of the news of each
product.

Currently is hard (to me at least) being aware of all the news only of
Squeak, I can't imagine trying to be up to date with Squeak + VW.

Just my thinking.

Cheers.

2008/3/8, giorgio ferraris <[hidden email]>:

> Hi,
> sorry to jump on the list.
> I'm a long time smalltalker, I like Squeak, but I come from VisualSmalltalk,
> and used a lot of commercial smalltalk, actually most of work done on Cincom
> VW.
> Using VW or Squeak or other dialects is a choice, where one decide if paying
> for a commercial product or staying on the opensource, depending on the
> cost/value in his particular case.
> I find really strange that people should be sorry for thinking about using
> a commercial product.
> I want to sell my product, if I think I have advantages on using a
> commercial one, why not? If I think I don't have advantages, then the open
> source version will be fine.
>
> If I don't wanna sell the product, but release it free, then both VW and
> squeak are free, so, no question, just use the best, independent to price
> that is zero on both cases. In any case, use smalltalk, whatever you want.
>
> ciao
>
> Giorgio
>
> BTW: the look is not the best reason I have for using visualworks. I really
> like what is possible to do with squeak, in term of less conventional UI.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 7:37 PM, Diogenes Moreira
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Yes off course, but, the people out of squeak community don't see with
> good eyes a platform whom don't have tools to make "Common Applications"(
> For me a Morphic Application is good, but the common user have requirements
> like "I wanna my name in the titlebar" )
> >
> > I'm fully agree with you, and don't see any reason to pay to Cincom, but
> the Facts are the Fact, and the common people yet choise VW becouse the
> application's look & feel are more "Common".
> >
> > Please, don't get me wrong, I'm very happy with Squeak.....and I'm wrote
> this mail because I hope It be useful
> > .
> >
> > Regards
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 4:07 PM, John M McIntosh
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > If you are going to use VW the question then is what you have to pay
> cincom if you have a commercial application
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Diogenes Moreira
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > HI folks:
> > > >
> > > > In the follow mail, you can see a typical question...and answer...
> > > >
> > > > In my point of view, is very important support projects like Seaside
> or SqueakGTK (with Esteban Lorenzano's Approach) to make Squeak easier and
> more interesting to Newbies and the common people, and the end, the
> Following Question will be a Obviously answer "Squeak"
> > > >
> > > > Regards.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > > From: Diogenes Moreira <[hidden email]>
> > > > Date: Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 2:40 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects
> > > > To: "A friendly place to get answers to even the most basic questions
> about Squeak." <[hidden email]>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi:
> > > >
> > > > Obviously, you can.
> > > >
> > > > But, VW have tools and things to make easy the development and deploy.
> > > > Some thing, like UIPaint, don't have your replacement in Squeak, but I
> don't find any stopper to develop in Squeak.
> > > >
> > > > The only point to review is this: Your application always will be in a
> World (Squeak Enviroment),
> > > >
> > > > Here you are some tips.
> > > > First Tip: make 2 images, one for development and other to
> production. In the production Image only load your needed package. When
> finish you development make a file out or use Monticello to export your
> classes to you production image.
> > > > Second Tip: You can package your images like Lukas Reggie do in
> Seaside One lick.
> > > > Third Tip: You can customize the UI in your application like
> mac with Pinesoft package.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 10:08 PM, RENE PLOURDE <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Can one use Squeak to build and sell applications? My wife is a
> > > > > musician and has some ideas for a Music Theory Application and asked
> > > > > if I could build it. The choices seem to be between Squeak and
> > > > > VisualWorks.
> > > > >
> > > > > If one built an application with Squeak are there tools for
> packaging
> > > > > it so that you only ship executables and not the entire development
> > > > > environment?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for any information you can provide.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rene'
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Beginners mailing list
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > >
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>

Andrew Wakeling

RE: [squeak-dev] Fwd: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects - SoC

In reply to this post by Diogenes Moreira

More reason for Smalltalk to have "less" dialects and more common code! It's a problem that Java doesn't have unless you consider dependency upon particular versions the same behaviour.

More reasons to support movements like the STEP (http://smalltalk.gnu.org/step/) or SPORT http://sourceforge.net/projects/sport/

Unfortunately SPORT still doesn't address one of the biggest issues, which is the GUI.

Only being new to Squeak, I can say that it was initially a little difficult to pick up only because of my habitual nature with Windows and VSE. I love it now though! I would love to see this open-source "beast" tamed a little though.

Regards,
Zak

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Germán Arduino
Sent: Monday, 10 March 2008 10:37 AM
To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Fwd: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects - SoC

Good points Giorgio. Myself used also Dolphin Smalltalk, even buyed a
PRO version, but.....and I think is a big but, I feel difficult to me
use different flavors, because can't stay on top of the news of each
product.

Currently is hard (to me at least) being aware of all the news only of
Squeak, I can't imagine trying to be up to date with Squeak + VW.

Just my thinking.

Cheers.

2008/3/8, giorgio ferraris <[hidden email]>:

Randal L. Schwartz

Re: [squeak-dev] Fwd: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects - SoC

>>>>> "Andrew" == Andrew Wakeling <[hidden email]> writes:

Andrew> More reasons to support movements like the STEP
Andrew> (http://smalltalk.gnu.org/step/) or SPORT
Andrew> http://sourceforge.net/projects/sport/

If STEP is part of GNU Smalltalk, and licensed under GNU licenses, then it's
not suitable for Squeak core, unless it's also dual licensed with a compatible
license as well.

SPORT also has a LGPL. Not suitable for Squeak core unless relicensed.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

ccrraaiigg

[squeak-dev] re: STEPs (was "Squeak in commercial projects - SoC")

Hi Randal--

> > ... http://smalltalk.gnu.org/step ...
>
> If STEP is part of GNU Smalltalk, and licensed under GNU licenses...

No, it isn't. STEP is an acronym for "Smalltalk Enhancement
Proposal", some infrastructure used by the current Smalltalk Standards
Project (descended from the first ANSI Smalltalk effort). The URL above
explains this.

The Smalltalk Standards Project group includes members from each
of the Smalltalk implementation communities, commercial and otherwise,
including Squeak's (e.g., me). If you'd like more information, please
contact the coordinator, Bruce Badger, via [1].

thanks,

-C

[1] http://lists.openskills.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ansi-smalltalk

--
Craig Latta
improvisational musical informaticist
www.netjam.org
Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)]

Paolo Bonzini-2

[squeak-dev] Re: Fwd: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects - SoC

In reply to this post by Randal L. Schwartz

> If STEP is part of GNU Smalltalk, and licensed under GNU licenses, then it's
> not suitable for Squeak core, unless it's also dual licensed with a compatible
> license as well.

No, it's just hosted in the same way Squeak's Mantis installation was
used to host Seaside's issue tracking.

The reference implementations for STEP are meant to be under any
OSI-approved license, though it is "suggested" that it be GPL-compatible.

Paolo

Gary Chambers-4

RE: [squeak-dev] Fwd: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects- SoC

In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K

If you want just a single "window" (popups/dialogs still constrained to the
"world") then have a lookat our (Pinesoft/UI Enhancements) FullscreenMorph
(and users). Handy for a near-native encapsulation.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Bill
> Schwab
> Sent: 07 March 2008 11:00 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Fwd: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects-
> SoC
>
>
> As others stated earlier, Pinesoft is giving us some great options, at
> least within the single Squeak window. For deployment, you might be
> better off with one layout morph in the main window, and then periodic
> modal "dialogs" (system windows with appropriately modal loop) to keep
> the user out of trouble. Relying on SystemWindow for end users
> effectively creates an MDI interface, which is often not what one
> wants.
>
> At the risk of getting an over-use injury from beating the dead horse,
> the real problems are with feel; the look of Squeak was improving even
> before Pinesoft announced their work. Please think about it, and I
> suspect you will agree that the reason you think users would take to a
> VW based app is not how it looks, but how it feels/works. However
> unimaginative they might be, the conventions that exist (and have become
> hard-wired into our expectations) were derived from usability labs
> populated with "average" people. Watch Joe Accountant try to do some
> work and see were he stumbles. Hmmm, he expects that when he releases
> the mouse button, the item will be selected, and he wants the keyboard
> input to go there even after he pushed the mouse cursor out of the way.
> FWIW, it appears the MS did a lot of this work back in the days when
> they actually listened to customers. I mention the drop-down selection
> mainly because MS has started screwing that up in recent years :)
>
> Look at it another way: if users cared what something looks like, why
> did XP sell so well - talk about UGLY...
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
>
> ===============================
> "Diogenes Moreira" <diogenes.moreira@...> diogenes.moreira@... wrote:
>
> Yes off course, but, the people out of squeak community don't see with
> good eyes a platform whom don't have tools to make "Common
> Applications"( For me a Morphic Application is good, but the common user
> have requirements like "I wanna my name in the titlebar" )
>
> I'm fully agree with you, and don't see any reason to pay to Cincom,
> but the Facts are the Fact, and the common people yet choise VW becouse
> the application's look & feel are more "Common".
>
> Please, don't get me wrong, I'm very happy with Squeak.....and I'm
> wrote this mail because I hope It be useful
> .
>
> Regards
>
> Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
> University of Florida
> Department of Anesthesiology
> PO Box 100254
> Gainesville, FL 32610-0254
>
> Email: [hidden email]
> Tel: (352) 846-1285
> FAX: (352) 392-7029
>
>