[squeak-dev] How can I count redraws of SystemWindows?

> Hello,
>
>
> I am trying to find out why browsers get slower when you open more of
> them in Squeak 3.9 (see previous emails). One theory is that hidden
> browsers are redrawn. I'd like to test that by making a note on the
> Transcript every time a browser window gets redrawn. I have tried to
> override SystemWindow>>fullRedrawOn: aCanvas. Unfortunately, the image
> locks up when I try to accept a non-trivial variation. I have tried
> e.g.
>
> fullDrawOn: aCanvas
> super fullDrawOn: aCanvas
> self title. "Hangs."
>
> Sometimes I am able to accept more complicated variants of this, but
> invariably I ended up with a hanging mage. I have tried to write to
> transcript only if I am inside certain type of window, in order to
> avoid redrawing loops for the transcript window. That failed because I
> ws not able to accept these variants of fullDrawOn:.
>
> Anything else I can try to count redraws?
>
> Cheers
>
> Matthias
>

>
>
>  On May 2, 2008, at 12:03 , Matthias Berth wrote:
>
>
> > Hello,
> >
> >
> > I am trying to find out why browsers get slower when you open more of
> > them in Squeak 3.9 (see previous emails). One theory is that hidden
> > browsers are redrawn. I'd like to test that by making a note on the
> > Transcript every time a browser window gets redrawn. I have tried to
> > override SystemWindow>>fullRedrawOn: aCanvas. Unfortunately, the image
> > locks up when I try to accept a non-trivial variation. I have tried
> > e.g.
> >
> > fullDrawOn: aCanvas
> > super fullDrawOn: aCanvas
> > self title. "Hangs."
> >
> > Sometimes I am able to accept more complicated variants of this, but
> > invariably I ended up with a hanging mage. I have tried to write to
> > transcript only if I am inside certain type of window, in order to
> > avoid redrawing loops for the transcript window. That failed because I
> > ws not able to accept these variants of fullDrawOn:.
> >
> > Anything else I can try to count redraws?
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Matthias
> >
> >
>
>
>

> On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 1:36 PM, Adrian Lienhard <[hidden email]>  
> wrote:
>> Most likely you get into an endless loop because your logging  
>> behavior
>> triggers another redraw.
>
> I was thinking that, too - but even when I do something simple like
> self title it locks up.
>
>> What you can try is to add an instance variable (or global) and use  
>> it as a
>> counter, or you could log to a file.

> Hello,
>
>
>  I am trying to find out why browsers get slower when you open more of
>  them in Squeak 3.9 (see previous emails). One theory is that hidden
>  browsers are redrawn. I'd like to test that by making a note on the
>  Transcript every time a browser window gets redrawn. I have tried to
>  override SystemWindow>>fullRedrawOn: aCanvas. Unfortunately, the image
>  locks up when I try to accept a non-trivial variation. I have tried
>  e.g.
>
>  fullDrawOn: aCanvas
>   super fullDrawOn: aCanvas
>   self title. "Hangs."
>
>  Sometimes I am able to accept more complicated variants of this, but
>  invariably I ended up with a hanging mage. I have tried to write to
>  transcript only if I am inside certain type of window, in order to
>  avoid redrawing loops for the transcript window. That failed because I
>  ws not able to accept these variants of fullDrawOn:.
>
>  Anything else I can try to count redraws?
>
>  Cheers
>
>  Matthias
>
>

> Transcript is forcefully redrawn if you issue show: command.
>  But, if you use just #nextPut:/ #nextPutAll: it will be not redrawn
>  immediately, only when Transcript window is redrawn in world redraw
>  cycle.
>
>  In previous posts to squeak-dev, i already highlighted this issue.
>  There is no real need in updating Transcript window more often than
>  each 20ms (which is a hard-coded world update cycle). And #show:
>  command should not forcefully redraw window, just invalidate it , so
>  on next cycle window will be updated automatically.
>
>  The only reason, why this bad habit is still present in image, because
>  there are many applications which working in single-threaded manner,
>  by locking UI, preventing it to update regularly, and as consequence
>  you need to update things manually instead of letting world update
>  cycle update it automatically.
>  Some people advocating, that direct redraw of Transcript window each
>  time you invoking #show: letting user to see message immediately.
>  But, if you do not lock UI process with own lengthly process, which
>  preventing updates each 20ms, what difference then? Do you really
>  think you will notice 20ms delay?
>  Also consider putting single character in transcript 1000 times in a
>  row. Is there a real need to redraw Transcript each time for each
>  character?
>
>  2008/5/2 Matthias Berth <[hidden email]>:
>
>
> > Hello,
>  >
>  >
>  >  I am trying to find out why browsers get slower when you open more of
>  >  them in Squeak 3.9 (see previous emails). One theory is that hidden
>  >  browsers are redrawn. I'd like to test that by making a note on the
>  >  Transcript every time a browser window gets redrawn. I have tried to
>  >  override SystemWindow>>fullRedrawOn: aCanvas. Unfortunately, the image
>  >  locks up when I try to accept a non-trivial variation. I have tried
>  >  e.g.
>  >
>  >  fullDrawOn: aCanvas
>  >   super fullDrawOn: aCanvas
>  >   self title. "Hangs."
>  >
>  >  Sometimes I am able to accept more complicated variants of this, but
>  >  invariably I ended up with a hanging mage. I have tried to write to
>  >  transcript only if I am inside certain type of window, in order to
>  >  avoid redrawing loops for the transcript window. That failed because I
>  >  ws not able to accept these variants of fullDrawOn:.
>  >
>  >  Anything else I can try to count redraws?
>  >
>  >  Cheers
>  >
>  >  Matthias
>  >
>  >
>
>
>
>  --
>  Best regards,
>  Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
>
>

> Transcript is forcefully redrawn if you issue show: command.
> But, if you use just #nextPut:/ #nextPutAll: it will be not redrawn
> immediately, only when Transcript window is redrawn in world redraw
> cycle.
>
> In previous posts to squeak-dev, i already highlighted this issue.
> There is no real need in updating Transcript window more often than
> each 20ms (which is a hard-coded world update cycle). And #show:
> command should not forcefully redraw window, just invalidate it , so
> on next cycle window will be updated automatically.
>
> The only reason, why this bad habit is still present in image, because
> there are many applications which working in single-threaded manner,
> by locking UI, preventing it to update regularly, and as consequence
> you need to update things manually instead of letting world update
> cycle update it automatically.
> Some people advocating, that direct redraw of Transcript window each
> time you invoking #show: letting user to see message immediately.
> But, if you do not lock UI process with own lengthly process, which
> preventing updates each 20ms, what difference then? Do you really
> think you will notice 20ms delay?
> Also consider putting single character in transcript 1000 times in a
> row. Is there a real need to redraw Transcript each time for each
> character?
>
> 2008/5/2 Matthias Berth <[hidden email]>:
>> Hello,
>>
>>
>> I am trying to find out why browsers get slower when you open more of
>> them in Squeak 3.9 (see previous emails). One theory is that hidden
>> browsers are redrawn. I'd like to test that by making a note on the
>> Transcript every time a browser window gets redrawn. I have tried to
>> override SystemWindow>>fullRedrawOn: aCanvas. Unfortunately, the  
>> image
>> locks up when I try to accept a non-trivial variation. I have tried
>> e.g.
>>
>> fullDrawOn: aCanvas
>> super fullDrawOn: aCanvas
>> self title. "Hangs."
>>
>> Sometimes I am able to accept more complicated variants of this, but
>> invariably I ended up with a hanging mage. I have tried to write to
>> transcript only if I am inside certain type of window, in order to
>> avoid redrawing loops for the transcript window. That failed  
>> because I
>> ws not able to accept these variants of fullDrawOn:.
>>
>> Anything else I can try to count redraws?
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Matthias
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
>
>

>  Stef
>
>
>
>  On May 2, 2008, at 11:17 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
>
>
> > Transcript is forcefully redrawn if you issue show: command.
> > But, if you use just #nextPut:/ #nextPutAll: it will be not redrawn
> > immediately, only when Transcript window is redrawn in world redraw
> > cycle.
> >
> > In previous posts to squeak-dev, i already highlighted this issue.
> > There is no real need in updating Transcript window more often than
> > each 20ms (which is a hard-coded world update cycle). And #show:
> > command should not forcefully redraw window, just invalidate it , so
> > on next cycle window will be updated automatically.
> >
> > The only reason, why this bad habit is still present in image, because
> > there are many applications which working in single-threaded manner,
> > by locking UI, preventing it to update regularly, and as consequence
> > you need to update things manually instead of letting world update
> > cycle update it automatically.
> > Some people advocating, that direct redraw of Transcript window each
> > time you invoking #show: letting user to see message immediately.
> > But, if you do not lock UI process with own lengthly process, which
> > preventing updates each 20ms, what difference then? Do you really
> > think you will notice 20ms delay?
> > Also consider putting single character in transcript 1000 times in a
> > row. Is there a real need to redraw Transcript each time for each
> > character?
> >
> > 2008/5/2 Matthias Berth <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > >
> > > I am trying to find out why browsers get slower when you open more of
> > > them in Squeak 3.9 (see previous emails). One theory is that hidden
> > > browsers are redrawn. I'd like to test that by making a note on the
> > > Transcript every time a browser window gets redrawn. I have tried to
> > > override SystemWindow>>fullRedrawOn: aCanvas. Unfortunately, the image
> > > locks up when I try to accept a non-trivial variation. I have tried
> > > e.g.
> > >
> > > fullDrawOn: aCanvas
> > > super fullDrawOn: aCanvas
> > > self title. "Hangs."
> > >
> > > Sometimes I am able to accept more complicated variants of this, but
> > > invariably I ended up with a hanging mage. I have tried to write to
> > > transcript only if I am inside certain type of window, in order to
> > > avoid redrawing loops for the transcript window. That failed because I
> > > ws not able to accept these variants of fullDrawOn:.
> > >
> > > Anything else I can try to count redraws?
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > Matthias
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Best regards,
> > Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

> 2008/5/3 stephane ducasse <[hidden email]>:
>> Hi igor
>>
>> Do you have some code to fix that?
>>
>
> Posted it on mantis.
> http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=7033
>
>> Stef
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 2, 2008, at 11:17 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Transcript is forcefully redrawn if you issue show: command.
>>> But, if you use just #nextPut:/ #nextPutAll: it will be not redrawn
>>> immediately, only when Transcript window is redrawn in world redraw
>>> cycle.
>>>
>>> In previous posts to squeak-dev, i already highlighted this issue.
>>> There is no real need in updating Transcript window more often than
>>> each 20ms (which is a hard-coded world update cycle). And #show:
>>> command should not forcefully redraw window, just invalidate it , so
>>> on next cycle window will be updated automatically.
>>>
>>> The only reason, why this bad habit is still present in image,  
>>> because
>>> there are many applications which working in single-threaded manner,
>>> by locking UI, preventing it to update regularly, and as consequence
>>> you need to update things manually instead of letting world update
>>> cycle update it automatically.
>>> Some people advocating, that direct redraw of Transcript window each
>>> time you invoking #show: letting user to see message immediately.
>>> But, if you do not lock UI process with own lengthly process, which
>>> preventing updates each 20ms, what difference then? Do you really
>>> think you will notice 20ms delay?
>>> Also consider putting single character in transcript 1000 times in a
>>> row. Is there a real need to redraw Transcript each time for each
>>> character?
>>>
>>> 2008/5/2 Matthias Berth <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am trying to find out why browsers get slower when you open  
>>>> more of
>>>> them in Squeak 3.9 (see previous emails). One theory is that hidden
>>>> browsers are redrawn. I'd like to test that by making a note on the
>>>> Transcript every time a browser window gets redrawn. I have tried  
>>>> to
>>>> override SystemWindow>>fullRedrawOn: aCanvas. Unfortunately, the  
>>>> image
>>>> locks up when I try to accept a non-trivial variation. I have tried
>>>> e.g.
>>>>
>>>> fullDrawOn: aCanvas
>>>> super fullDrawOn: aCanvas
>>>> self title. "Hangs."
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes I am able to accept more complicated variants of this,  
>>>> but
>>>> invariably I ended up with a hanging mage. I have tried to write to
>>>> transcript only if I am inside certain type of window, in order to
>>>> avoid redrawing loops for the transcript window. That failed  
>>>> because I
>>>> ws not able to accept these variants of fullDrawOn:.
>>>>
>>>> Anything else I can try to count redraws?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Matthias
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Best regards,
>>> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
>
>

> 2008/5/4 stephane ducasse <[hidden email]>:
>> Thanks
>> I was also thinking that having a thread safe transcript would be  
>> good for
>> people trying some
>> concurrent snippets.
>>
>
> Check mantis, i seen report which dealing with thread safety for
> Transcript. Didn't examined it.
>
>> Stef
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
>
>

> On Sun, May 04, 2008 at 10:16:48AM +0200, stephane ducasse wrote:
>> Thanks
>> I was also thinking that having a thread safe transcript would be  
>> good
>> for people trying some
>> concurrent snippets.
>>
>> Stef
>
> If you happen to be using a Unix or Mac VM, this is a more reliable  
> way to
> do it, see class OSProcess:
>
> debugMessage: aString
> "Print aString on standard output. The debug message is prefixed  
> with the
> identity of the process in which the method is being evaluated, and  
> the
> identity of the object which received the message. Useful for  
> debugging
> timing or deadlock problems."
>
> It would work on Windows too (prints to a Windows console), but I  
> have not updated
> the plugin in a long time, sorry.
>
> You can also just write to a file stream, or to a file stream on /
> dev/tty.
>
> - Dave
>
>
>

>>
>> Now I would love to see really integrate a stdout so that we could  
>> get
>> Squeak headless
>> and using it as a "scripting" language. Right now on each platform we
>> have to use a plugin
>> which is not working the same or not available on the platform.
>> Is there any chance that we would get
>>
>> Output nextPut: 'zork'
>
> That is certainly easy to do, it would be just a matter of agreeing
> to make a #primitiveGetStdout available on all platforms. But to be
> honest, I'm not sure that this is suitable for a "base Squeak," and
> Squeak is probably never going to be a good choice as a scripting
> language IMHO.