[squeak-dev] Metacello
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Just found this:
http://gemstonesoup.wordpress.com/2009/08/25/metacello-package-management-for-monticello/ Have not looked deeply yet but sounds rather interesting ... - Bert - |
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Yes, exactly.
We were talking about at SqueakRos.....Couldn't be applicable to the Squeak itself release process? Germán. 2009/9/2 Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]>: > Just found this: > > http://gemstonesoup.wordpress.com/2009/08/25/metacello-package-management-for-monticello/ > > Have not looked deeply yet but sounds rather interesting ... > > - Bert - > > > > |
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In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg
Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>Just found this: > >http://gemstonesoup.wordpress.com/2009/08/25/metacello-package-management-for-monticello/ > >Have not looked deeply yet but sounds rather interesting >... Yep, I talked with Dale from Gemstone about it in the light of finally achieving the real "one-click" installation of Smalltalk code and it seems Metacello is a way to go. More when I came back from ESUG. Best regards Janko |
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Janko Mivsek wrote:
> Bert Freudenberg wrote: > >> Just found this: >> >> http://gemstonesoup.wordpress.com/2009/08/25/metacello-package-management-for-monticello/ >> >> >> Have not looked deeply yet but sounds rather interesting ... > > Yep, I talked with Dale from Gemstone about it in the light of finally > achieving the real "one-click" installation of Smalltalk code and it > seems Metacello is a way to go. > > More when I came back from ESUG. > > Best regards > Janko already done so. Keith |
Re: [squeak-dev] Metacello
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>>>>> "Keith" == Keith Hodges <[hidden email]> writes:
Keith> Sake/Packages is far more likely to be able to achieve this, and has Keith> already done so. And if it wasn't seen as the choice, it means you need to do a better job promoting and documenting it, not just claiming it's better. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 <[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/> Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion |
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Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>>>>>> "Keith" == Keith Hodges <[hidden email]> writes: >>>>>> > > Keith> Sake/Packages is far more likely to be able to achieve this, and has > Keith> already done so. > > And if it wasn't seen as the choice, it means you need to do a better job > promoting and documenting it, not just claiming it's better. > I do not believe the premise of your statement. No amount of effort announcing, documenting, and promoting makes any difference. I have made considerable efforts on all three over the past 3 years whereas in contrast Lukas does no announcing, documenting or promoting, yet people use his stuff without a second thought. I have attempted to show that the community needs to move forward using plans, proposals, and documented developments, yet the chosen path appears to be continuous hacking. If you want to understand something read the code for yourself; this appears to be a good enough philosophy for Avi, Andreas, and Lukas then it should be good enough for me. basically I don't care anymore Keith |
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On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 12:28 PM, Keith Hodges<[hidden email]> wrote: > Randal L. Schwartz wrote: >>>>>>> "Keith" == Keith Hodges <[hidden email]> writes: >>>>>>> >> >> Keith> Sake/Packages is far more likely to be able to achieve this, and has >> Keith> already done so. >> >> And if it wasn't seen as the choice, it means you need to do a better job >> promoting and documenting it, not just claiming it's better. >> > I do not believe the premise of your statement. > > No amount of effort announcing, documenting, and promoting makes any > difference. I have made considerable efforts on all three over the past > 3 years whereas in contrast Lukas does no announcing, documenting or > promoting, yet people use his stuff without a second thought. Simply not true. Google Lukas Renggli and you get http://www.lukas-renggli.ch/ Click on the Magritte link and you get overview, installation instructions, links to mailing lists, code repositories, instructions on how to report errors, a list of publications and a tutorial. Google Keith Hodges and Bob the Builder and you get http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/release/2008-October/000036.html
which, when I read it, presumes I know an awful lot of context I have no clue how to create. There's no overview, there's no pointer to code, there's no tutorial, no hand-hlding, juts a description of how you go about things once you understand how the whole thing works. i.e. far too demanding for a noob like myself. I'm simply not smart enough to figure out how to use your system form that description. Magritte on the other hand looks like it could be worth some of my ever shorter in supply time to explore. (As does Pier, Scriptaculous and the rest of Lucas's thoughtfully presented projects). > > I have attempted to show that the community needs to move forward using > plans, proposals, and documented developments, yet the chosen path > appears to be continuous hacking. If you want to understand something > read the code for yourself; this appears to be a good enough philosophy > for Avi, Andreas, and Lukas then it should be good enough for me. > > basically I don't care anymore If you really care you'll try and look at the process from an outsiders perspective and document the system assuming little more than familiarity with Squeak, and you'll document it on a web site (there are Squeak wikis you can use that you don't have to pay for) so that people can find it, read it and reference it. You'll use the work of people like Lukas as an example of how to present your stuff. You'll ask people to read draft versions, and improve your presentation based on the feedback you receive. Then you might find your stuff starts being used and appreciated.
> > Keith > > |
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On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 1:49 PM, Eliot Miranda<[hidden email]> wrote:
>> No amount of effort announcing, documenting, and promoting makes any >> difference. I have made considerable efforts on all three over the past >> 3 years whereas in contrast Lukas does no announcing, documenting or >> promoting, yet people use his stuff without a second thought. > > Simply not true. Google Lukas Renggli and you get > http://www.lukas-renggli.ch/ > > Click on the Magritte link and you get overview, installation instructions, > links to mailing lists, code repositories, instructions on how to report > errors, a list of publications and a tutorial. Indeed. And the projects (there are many) that Lukas (or myself or Andreas, who you also named) *doesn't* take the time to document and promote tend not to get widely used or even known about. A recent favorite of mine is PetitParser: http://source.lukas-renggli.ch/petit/ . Getting community adoption of an open source project is *hard*, and it takes a lot of careful work and not a small amount of luck. I've been successful exactly twice, with Seaside and with Monticello. But when, eg, I announced a brand new Smalltalk system on the Seaside list last week (http://clamato.net), the thread sank without a trace. Them's the breaks. Avi |
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In reply to this post by keith1y
2009/9/2 Keith Hodges <[hidden email]>:
> Randal L. Schwartz wrote: >>>>>>> "Keith" == Keith Hodges <[hidden email]> writes: >>>>>>> >> >> Keith> Sake/Packages is far more likely to be able to achieve this, and has >> Keith> already done so. >> >> And if it wasn't seen as the choice, it means you need to do a better job >> promoting and documenting it, not just claiming it's better. >> > I do not believe the premise of your statement. > > No amount of effort announcing, documenting, and promoting makes any > difference. I have made considerable efforts on all three over the past > 3 years whereas in contrast Lukas does no announcing, documenting or > promoting, yet people use his stuff without a second thought. > > I have attempted to show that the community needs to move forward using > plans, proposals, and documented developments, yet the chosen path > appears to be continuous hacking. If you want to understand something > read the code for yourself; this appears to be a good enough philosophy > for Avi, Andreas, and Lukas then it should be good enough for me. > > basically I don't care anymore > > Keith > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. |
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In reply to this post by Avi Bryant-2
On 02.09.2009, at 23:07, Avi Bryant wrote: > On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 1:49 PM, Eliot > Miranda<[hidden email]> wrote: > >>> No amount of effort announcing, documenting, and promoting makes any >>> difference. I have made considerable efforts on all three over the >>> past >>> 3 years whereas in contrast Lukas does no announcing, documenting or >>> promoting, yet people use his stuff without a second thought. >> >> Simply not true. Google Lukas Renggli and you get >> http://www.lukas-renggli.ch/ >> >> Click on the Magritte link and you get overview, installation >> instructions, >> links to mailing lists, code repositories, instructions on how to >> report >> errors, a list of publications and a tutorial. > > Indeed. And the projects (there are many) that Lukas (or myself or > Andreas, who you also named) *doesn't* take the time to document and > promote tend not to get widely used or even known about. A recent > favorite of mine is PetitParser: http://source.lukas-renggli.ch/petit/ > . > > Getting community adoption of an open source project is *hard*, and it > takes a lot of careful work and not a small amount of luck. I've been > successful exactly twice, with Seaside and with Monticello. But when, > eg, I announced a brand new Smalltalk system on the Seaside list last > week (http://clamato.net), the thread sank without a trace. Them's the > breaks. Now if you hadn't tucked this away in "btw" remark here I'd have said "Awesome!" and shown it to all my friends ;) - Bert - |
Re: [squeak-dev] Metacello
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In reply to this post by Avi Bryant-2
>>>>> "Avi" == Avi Bryant <[hidden email]> writes:
Avi> Getting community adoption of an open source project is *hard*, and it Avi> takes a lot of careful work and not a small amount of luck. I've been Avi> successful exactly twice, with Seaside and with Monticello. But when, Avi> eg, I announced a brand new Smalltalk system on the Seaside list last Avi> week (http://clamato.net), the thread sank without a trace. Them's the Avi> breaks. Is there a link from clamato.net pointing to how to get it? That might have helped. :) (I can hear you saying "doh!" right about now.) -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 <[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/> Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion |
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In reply to this post by Eliot Miranda-2
2009/9/2 Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>:
> > >> >> No amount of effort announcing, documenting, and promoting makes any >> difference. I have made considerable efforts on all three over the past >> 3 years whereas in contrast Lukas does no announcing, documenting or >> promoting, yet people use his stuff without a second thought. > > Simply not true. Google Lukas Renggli and you get > http://www.lukas-renggli.ch/ > > Click on the Magritte link and you get overview, installation instructions, > links to mailing lists, code repositories, instructions on how to report > errors, a list of publications and a tutorial. > Google Keith Hodges and Bob the Builder and you get > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/release/2008-October/000036.html > which, when I read it, presumes I know an awful lot of context I have no > clue how to create. There's no overview, there's no pointer to code, > there's no tutorial, no hand-hlding, juts a description of how you go about > things once you understand how the whole thing works. i.e. far too > demanding for a noob like myself. I'm simply not smart enough to figure out > how to use your system form that description. > Magritte on the other hand looks like it could be worth some of my ever > shorter in supply time to explore. (As does Pier, Scriptaculous and the rest > of Lucas's thoughtfully presented projects). > +1 Sorry Keith, I respect your work and the time you invested as the time and work of any person contributing with Squeak, but I'm in a similar situation of Eliot, never understood the whole context of all your tools with exception of Installer. As all of us, my free time is very limited, but I try to be acquainted of all the Squeak news, mainly the tools and process to build "our" Squeak and think that we need a consensus prior to adoption of tools and, afaik, I think that such consensus don't exist yet. ========================================================= Germán S. Arduino <gsa @ arsol.net> Twitter: garduino Arduino Software & Web Hosting http://www.arduinosoftware.com PasswordsPro http://www.passwordspro.com ========================================================= |
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In reply to this post by Randal L. Schwartz
On 03.09.2009, at 00:53, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: >>>>>> "Avi" == Avi Bryant <[hidden email]> writes: > > Avi> Getting community adoption of an open source project is *hard*, > and it > Avi> takes a lot of careful work and not a small amount of luck. > I've been > Avi> successful exactly twice, with Seaside and with Monticello. > But when, > Avi> eg, I announced a brand new Smalltalk system on the Seaside > list last > Avi> week (http://clamato.net), the thread sank without a trace. > Them's the > Avi> breaks. > > Is there a link from clamato.net pointing to how to get it? > > That might have helped. :) > > (I can hear you saying "doh!" right about now.) You did not actually click the "get started" link? And you did not notice it runs in your browser? (I can hear you saying "doh!" right about now.) - Bert - |
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2009/9/2 Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]>:
> You did not actually click the "get started" link? > > And you did not notice it runs in your browser? > > (I can hear you saying "doh!" right about now.) > > - Bert - His question sounded more like "I'd like to have Clamato and integrate to my very own website." Rather than playing around on clamato.net. Doesn't work on IE 7.0.5730.13 nor Opera 10. Works on Firefox 3.5.2. Ian. -- http://mecenia.blogspot.com/ |
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In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg
>>>>> "Bert" == Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> writes:
>> Is there a link from clamato.net pointing to how to get it? >> >> That might have helped. :) >> >> (I can hear you saying "doh!" right about now.) Bert> You did not actually click the "get started" link? Bert> And you did not notice it runs in your browser? Bert> (I can hear you saying "doh!" right about now.) Right. But I wanted to *download* it. I seem to recall some link somewhere that pointed at the source, but I can't find it now. Also keep in mind that clamato.net got a lot of Twitter buzz recently. If it's not there, it doesn't exist. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 <[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/> Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion |
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On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Randal L. Schwartz<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Right. But I wanted to *download* it. I seem to recall some link > somewhere that pointed at the source, but I can't find it now. Well, if you just want the source, web browsers do have a File>Save As... remember, there's no server side code. But you probably want the repository, which is here: http://bitbucket.org/avibryant/clamato/ Avi |
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In reply to this post by Ian Trudel-2
On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Ian Trudel<[hidden email]> wrote:
> His question sounded more like "I'd like to have Clamato and integrate > to my very own website." Rather than playing around on clamato.net. > > Doesn't work on IE 7.0.5730.13 nor Opera 10. Yeah - those should work as deployment platforms, but I'm not that motivated to make them work as development platforms. > Works on Firefox 3.5.2. Good. Chrome and Safari are better. Avi |
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In reply to this post by garduino
2009/9/2 Germán Arduino <[hidden email]>:
> 2009/9/2 Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>: >> >> >>> >>> No amount of effort announcing, documenting, and promoting makes any >>> difference. I have made considerable efforts on all three over the past >>> 3 years whereas in contrast Lukas does no announcing, documenting or >>> promoting, yet people use his stuff without a second thought. >> >> Simply not true. Google Lukas Renggli and you get >> http://www.lukas-renggli.ch/ >> >> Click on the Magritte link and you get overview, installation instructions, >> links to mailing lists, code repositories, instructions on how to report >> errors, a list of publications and a tutorial. >> Google Keith Hodges and Bob the Builder and you get >> >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/release/2008-October/000036.html >> which, when I read it, presumes I know an awful lot of context I have no >> clue how to create. There's no overview, there's no pointer to code, >> there's no tutorial, no hand-hlding, juts a description of how you go about >> things once you understand how the whole thing works. i.e. far too >> demanding for a noob like myself. I'm simply not smart enough to figure out >> how to use your system form that description. >> Magritte on the other hand looks like it could be worth some of my ever >> shorter in supply time to explore. (As does Pier, Scriptaculous and the rest >> of Lucas's thoughtfully presented projects). >> > > +1 > > Sorry Keith, I respect your work and the time you invested as the time > and work of any person contributing > with Squeak, but I'm in a similar situation of Eliot, never understood > the whole context of all your tools with > exception of Installer. > > As all of us, my free time is very limited, but I try to be acquainted > of all the Squeak news, mainly the tools and > process to build "our" Squeak and think that we need a consensus prior > to adoption of tools and, afaik, I think that > such consensus don't exist yet. > (wearing my Board member hat) so, any volunteers to help Keith to document & publicize the essence from his tools? (wearing off the hat) :) > > ========================================================= > Germán S. Arduino <gsa @ arsol.net> Twitter: garduino > Arduino Software & Web Hosting http://www.arduinosoftware.com > PasswordsPro http://www.passwordspro.com > ========================================================= > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. |
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In reply to this post by Avi Bryant-2
2009/9/2 Avi Bryant <[hidden email]>:
> On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Ian Trudel<[hidden email]> wrote: > >> His question sounded more like "I'd like to have Clamato and integrate >> to my very own website." Rather than playing around on clamato.net. >> >> Doesn't work on IE 7.0.5730.13 nor Opera 10. > > Yeah - those should work as deployment platforms, but I'm not that > motivated to make them work as development platforms. > >> Works on Firefox 3.5.2. > > Good. Chrome and Safari are better. nah, Chrome is a bit behind FF in functionality available (try rendering animated SVG's for instance) can't say anything about Safari And Firebug is a #1 tool for web-dev ;) > > Avi > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. |
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The other shoe drops! Has anyone tried running this on the same page
as the Lively Kernel? On Wednesday, September 2, 2009, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote: > 2009/9/2 Avi Bryant <[hidden email]>: >> On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Ian Trudel<[hidden email]> wrote: >> >>> His question sounded more like "I'd like to have Clamato and integrate >>> to my very own website." Rather than playing around on http://clamato.net. >>> >>> Doesn't work on IE 7.0.5730.13 nor Opera 10. >> >> Yeah - those should work as deployment platforms, but I'm not that >> motivated to make them work as development platforms. >> >>> Works on Firefox 3.5.2. >> >> Good. Chrome and Safari are better. > > nah, Chrome is a bit behind FF in functionality available (try > rendering animated SVG's for instance) > can't say anything about Safari > And Firebug is a #1 tool for web-dev ;) > >> >> Avi >> > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. > > -- Ron |
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