[squeak-dev] Re: need help building one-click squeak app for Windows

Andreas wrote:
>Personally, I prefer Advanced Installer[1] since it creates MSIs and has
>both a nice interactive environment as well as a scriptable form

Yes, there are many good installers out there. But I prefer InstallShield
(after switching from Wise) these days which is nice to work with...
 
But to have a reproducable and completely free build for a community project) NSIS is a viable alternative. Not as comfortable but free as
Squeak itself. And there are many add on packages and tools out there.

>I haven't looked at your install but one thing that I never quite got is
>how the whole Smalltalk image model plays into this.

As you know like most Smalltalks it does not integrate very
well with the underlying platform - and so not very well with the
startup menu. But you can associate the *.image file with the VM, the
downside is that you have to navigate the image folder first.

The setup was intended as a simple "starter" to wet the appetite
if someone just want to plays with the system first.

>From time to time newbees have problems with this whole "you need
this VM, unzip this source and changes and this image".

People first want to easily try and later learn and read if they
get interested.

The setup was also intended as a "howto" create and deploy
custom end-user applications (where you typically dont save images).
It included a description how to build a custom VM and distribution.
Thats often a question on the squeak and pharo lists as you may know...

>Considering that the installation location for an application is >generally read-only

I guess you mean on Vista the program folder is (depending on rights)
not writeable by the application after installation.

Thats why the application folder in the users directory is the
predefined (but changable) install folder. Thats easy in NSIS:

  !define TARGET_DIR "$LOCALAPPDATA\${PRODUCT}"

>Or do Pharo users not save their images?

No - Pharo users use Squeak images and always do a fresh
 bootstrap ;)

Just kidding, I think most Pharo users are Squeak users and
vice versa. At least I'am. So I will save images in both :)

We should make Squeak and Pharo easily accessible even when it
is different than what others expects. We just have to make it
more familar. Typically have only one chance to get people into
something...

Bye
T.

















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Torsten Bergmann wrote:
> Yes, there are many good installers out there. But I prefer InstallShield
> (after switching from Wise) these days which is nice to work with...
>  
> But to have a reproducable and completely free build for a community project) NSIS is a viable alternative. Not as comfortable but free as
> Squeak itself. And there are many add on packages and tools out there.

Perhaps so. I guess I'm a bit too much in the "I just want the damn
thing to work" camp and don't care much about the freedom aspects ;-)

I understand that. I'm just wondering how you even begin to explain to
someone who is used to Windows apps that when they are saving the image
they're really doing a persistent modification of (what they think of
as) the "app".

> The setup was also intended as a "howto" create and deploy
> custom end-user applications (where you typically dont save images).
> It included a description how to build a custom VM and distribution.
> Thats often a question on the squeak and pharo lists as you may know...

I have actually not seen that question that often over the years (but
then I haven't been following too closely lately). It's certainly
worthwhile to document though. Would you mind writing this up in html
form and put it somewhere so that I can link it from squeakvm.org? (or
alternatively just send me an html version and I'll put it there)

>> Considering that the installation location for an application is >generally read-only
>
> I guess you mean on Vista the program folder is (depending on rights)
> not writeable by the application after installation.
>
> Thats why the application folder in the users directory is the
> predefined (but changable) install folder. Thats easy in NSIS:
>
>   !define TARGET_DIR "$LOCALAPPDATA\${PRODUCT}"

Ouch! Don't do that. $LOCALAPPDATA is a *terrible* location if you need
people to find it. Put it under My Documents\<app name> instead. This is
a location that people can find easily.

>> Or do Pharo users not save their images?
>
> No - Pharo users use Squeak images and always do a fresh
> bootstrap ;)
>
> Just kidding, I think most Pharo users are Squeak users and
> vice versa. At least I'am. So I will save images in both :)

Well, what do I know ;-) I haven't looked at Pharo and probably won't
until 1.0 is out (btw, did I miss the announcement? I thought that was
supposed to happen a couple of months ago). In the mean time I very much
enjoy Cuis.

> We should make Squeak and Pharo easily accessible even when it
> is different than what others expects. We just have to make it
> more familar. Typically have only one chance to get people into
> something...

Indeed. But I find it a little risky to pretend we're just another
Windows app to potential developers. There is a difference between
application packaging and development and one shouldn't be confused with
the other. I think it's okay if we assume that even the beginning Squeak
developer needs a bit more understanding than what VisualBasic would
expect from its user base.

Cheers,
   - Andreas