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[squeak-dev] Squeak-dev default browser

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Tapple Gao

[squeak-dev] Squeak-dev default browser

Recently, Squeak-dev has changed the default browser to an
OmniBrowser derivative, to the annoyance of some people.

Opinions aside, this has caused a lot of confusion among noobs
in the #squeak IRC channel, where now the single most
frequently-asked question is:

How do I do <browser action> as described in <tutorial>? Am I
blind? I don't see that operation in the menu.

Most often, the complaint is with users of the Squeak By Example
book, but it is also true that EVERY SINGLE TUTORIAL about
squeak so far illustrates the use of the ST80 browser.

This questions arises about once every three days in #squeak.

The ST80 browser should be made the default browser in
squeak-dev, but it should be made clear that there are
alternatives. Toward this end, I made a draft of a page for the
script-manager in squeak-dev, describing the various browsers,
and how to switch between them. It is in the form of a method:

http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/5597

However, this only addresses the browser in the open menu; it
does not address the toolbar buttons at the top of the desktop,
nor the browser in the Tools flap.

I am also not sure what the OBSmartGroupBrowser is, or why it is
not listed among the options when selecting a default browser.

I'm also not sure why the RefactoringBrowser is still around. I
was under the impression that is was abandoned in favor of OB.

In this situation, I believe it is preferable to cater to the
noobs, since those of us who like the OB already know how to
switch, but, to a noob, this is a brick-wall issue, since this
is not documented anywhere obvious. Comments welcome

--
Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/

Mathieu SUEN

Re: [squeak-dev] Squeak-dev default browser

On Apr 5, 2008, at 9:56 PM, Matthew Fulmer wrote:
> Recently, Squeak-dev has changed the default browser to an
> OmniBrowser derivative, to the annoyance of some people.
>
> Opinions aside, this has caused a lot of confusion among noobs
> in the #squeak IRC channel, where now the single most
> frequently-asked question is:
>
> How do I do <browser action> as described in <tutorial>? Am I
> blind? I don't see that operation in the menu.

What about a Squeak-Beginner

>
>
> Most often, the complaint is with users of the Squeak By Example
> book, but it is also true that EVERY SINGLE TUTORIAL about
> squeak so far illustrates the use of the ST80 browser.
>
> This questions arises about once every three days in #squeak.
>
> The ST80 browser should be made the default browser in
> squeak-dev, but it should be made clear that there are
> alternatives. Toward this end, I made a draft of a page for the
> script-manager in squeak-dev, describing the various browsers,
> and how to switch between them. It is in the form of a method:
>
> http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/5597
>
> However, this only addresses the browser in the open menu; it
> does not address the toolbar buttons at the top of the desktop,
> nor the browser in the Tools flap.
>
> I am also not sure what the OBSmartGroupBrowser is, or why it is
> not listed among the options when selecting a default browser.
>
> I'm also not sure why the RefactoringBrowser is still around. I
> was under the impression that is was abandoned in favor of OB.
>
>
> In this situation, I believe it is preferable to cater to the
> noobs, since those of us who like the OB already know how to
> switch, but, to a noob, this is a brick-wall issue, since this
> is not documented anywhere obvious. Comments welcome
>
> --
> Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/
>

Mth

Damien Cassou-3

Re: [squeak-dev] Squeak-dev default browser

In reply to this post by Tapple Gao

Hi Matthew,

I know that some readers of Squeak By Example have problems with my
squeak-dev images. However, I'm unsure about what to put as a default.
I would like to put the most powerful and updated tools on Squeak and
make them default. If I don't do it, then we will never change our
habits.

In Squeak By Example, I think we were not clear enough about the base
image we chose. Some authors used squeak-dev and others stock Squeak.

What I can do is create a squeak-dev image based on 3.9 and with the
standard browser as the default. I won't update that image so that
beginners don't get confused.

Could you please add the comment you have written inside the
'construction - documentation' category of the DEVImageCreator class?
You have write access to the repository, as everyone else.

I'm very open to discussion on this topic.

On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 9:56 PM, Matthew Fulmer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Recently, Squeak-dev has changed the default browser to an
> OmniBrowser derivative, to the annoyance of some people.
>
> Opinions aside, this has caused a lot of confusion among noobs
> in the #squeak IRC channel, where now the single most
> frequently-asked question is:
>
> How do I do <browser action> as described in <tutorial>? Am I
> blind? I don't see that operation in the menu.
>
> Most often, the complaint is with users of the Squeak By Example
> book, but it is also true that EVERY SINGLE TUTORIAL about
> squeak so far illustrates the use of the ST80 browser.
>
> This questions arises about once every three days in #squeak.
>
> The ST80 browser should be made the default browser in
> squeak-dev, but it should be made clear that there are
> alternatives. Toward this end, I made a draft of a page for the
> script-manager in squeak-dev, describing the various browsers,
> and how to switch between them. It is in the form of a method:
>
> http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/5597
>
> However, this only addresses the browser in the open menu; it
> does not address the toolbar buttons at the top of the desktop,
> nor the browser in the Tools flap.
>
> I am also not sure what the OBSmartGroupBrowser is, or why it is
> not listed among the options when selecting a default browser.
>
> I'm also not sure why the RefactoringBrowser is still around. I
> was under the impression that is was abandoned in favor of OB.
>
>
> In this situation, I believe it is preferable to cater to the
> noobs, since those of us who like the OB already know how to
> switch, but, to a noob, this is a brick-wall issue, since this
> is not documented anywhere obvious. Comments welcome
>
> --
> Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/
>
>

--
Damien Cassou
Peter von der Ahé: «I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good
luck». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu)

cedreek

Re: [squeak-dev] Squeak-dev default browser

In reply to this post by Mathieu SUEN

> >
>
> What about a Squeak-Beginner

or Squeak-ByExample so that's clear !

>

I think a beginner image would be a good idea. This is not a question
of another image, but a stable one for beginner and the one all (new)
tutorial should conform. This won't need a month release, maybe a year
release (even less). I really like the idea of unit test on examples
too...

I think sq3.9.1-7075web08.04.1
(https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/4378/sq3.9.1-7075web08.04.1.zip)
would be a good basis. Or the 3.10 based one (I like UI-Enhancements)
but it seems there are some problems with FFI so...

Choosing a web version (seaside, aida, kom, swazoo) is an orientation
but I guess that's what most of the beginner want... There could be an
etoy version too maybe. The idea is not spending time loading code at
first...

What's more important (beside included packages) are consistence and
self explaining images. Each tool and menus must be explained. System
Browser(s), Code repositories (SM, Universe, MC), and other tools
(browsers, explorers)... etc...

Cédrick

Sophie424

[squeak-dev] Re: Squeak-dev default browser

"cdrick" <[hidden email]> wrote in message

> What's more important (beside included packages) are consistence and
> self explaining images.

+1

Sophie

stephane ducasse

Re: [squeak-dev] Squeak-dev default browser

In reply to this post by Mathieu SUEN

may be this is the solution.

>> How do I do <browser action> as described in <tutorial>? Am I
>> blind? I don't see that operation in the menu.
>
> What about a Squeak-Beginner
>

Tapple Gao

Re: [squeak-dev] Squeak-dev default browser

In reply to this post by Mathieu SUEN

On Sun, Apr 06, 2008 at 12:29:18AM +0200, Mathieu Suen wrote:
> What about a Squeak-Beginner

What do you mean by this response? can you elaborate?

--
Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/

cedreek

Re: [squeak-dev] Squeak-dev default browser

2008/4/7, Matthew Fulmer <[hidden email]>:
> On Sun, Apr 06, 2008 at 12:29:18AM +0200, Mathieu Suen wrote:
> > What about a Squeak-Beginner
>
>
> What do you mean by this response? can you elaborate?
>

I thought elaborated a bit (though this might not be Matthiew's idea).

We could do an image for (dev) beginner that won't change a lot every month.

It that will stay simple and consistent with examples/tutorials and
documentation about the learning process, how to navigate in the
code... etc...etc...

Cédrick

ps: I could help here, but when I'll have time (not before october :( )

David Röthlisberger

Re: [squeak-dev] Squeak-dev default browser

In reply to this post by Tapple Gao

> http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/5597
>
> However, this only addresses the browser in the open menu; it
> does not address the toolbar buttons at the top of the desktop,
> nor the browser in the Tools flap.
>
> I am also not sure what the OBSmartGroupBrowser is, or why it is
> not listed among the options when selecting a default browser.

This issue is now solved and will be available in upcoming squeak-dev releases.
The solution looks like this:
Smart groups are integrated in the package browser (the current default browser in
squeak-dev). The option for the SmartGroup browser disappears from the open menu.
Smart Groups are not based on the multiple selection browser anymore, thus they
should be fairly stable to use in the package browser.

To get that functionality right now, you can update the package OB-Enhancements using
the package universe.

I hope this helps eschewing some obfuscation...

Cheers,
David

cedreek

Re: [squeak-dev] Squeak-dev default browser

>
> This issue is now solved and will be available in upcoming squeak-dev
> releases.

It's working well in 3.9 (las web-dev) based image.

I still have some weird problems with 3.10 (last web-dev when loading
last OB-Enhancement), it crashes when I open a browser (vm win32
3.10.5).
I have this strange bug again: instead of having a MNU on nil, it's
"transformed" in a MNU on SmallInteger... It should be nul because at
one moment, package name return nil (If I inspect in the debugger),
but the next step is the message is sent to a smallinteger... !!!

> The solution looks like this:
> Smart groups are integrated in the package browser (the current default
> browser in squeak-dev). The option for the SmartGroup browser disappears
> from the open menu. Smart Groups are not based on the multiple selection
> browser anymore, thus they should be fairly stable to use in the package
> browser.

This is really cool :) and also snappier... Thanks David...

The sad thing is I've lost the comment pane when selecting a class. Is
there any way to do an equivalent as you don't use anymore a multiple
definition panel ?

>
> To get that functionality right now, you can update the package
> OB-Enhancements using the package universe.
>
> I hope this helps eschewing some obfuscation...

It will for sure ;)

Cédrick
>
>
> Cheers,
> David
>
>

David Röthlisberger

Re: [squeak-dev] Squeak-dev default browser

> I still have some weird problems with 3.10 (last web-dev when loading
> last OB-Enhancement), it crashes when I open a browser (vm win32
> 3.10.5).
> I have this strange bug again: instead of having a MNU on nil, it's
> "transformed" in a MNU on SmallInteger... It should be nul because at
> one moment, package name return nil (If I inspect in the debugger),
> but the next step is the message is sent to a smallinteger... !!!

Can you try to recompile the class definition of OBMonticelloPackageNode and maybe
also method #package of this class? If it does not work afterwards, try to add a
dummy inst var to OBMonticelloPackageNode and recompile it again (you can later on
remove this inst var).

It seems to me that when I change the name of an instance variable of a class in its
definition and in all methods using that variable, and when I then commit these
changes from a 3.9 image using Monticello, then this code does not work in Squeak
3.10 while it's working smoothly in 3.9.

Obviously there is something messed up with the indices of the inst vars of a class
in Squeak 3.10 in such a case...
I currently have no clue why and where this problem occurs...

David

David Röthlisberger

Re: [squeak-dev] Squeak-dev default browser

In reply to this post by cedreek

> The sad thing is I've lost the comment pane when selecting a class. Is
> there any way to do an equivalent as you don't use anymore a multiple
> definition panel ?

What you could do is to use either the multiple selection browser or the
smart group browser, which is still available and is based on the
multiple selection browser.
The long term goal is to integrate multiple selection in the package
browser as soon as multiple selection works stable. Then we can totally
abandon all the other browsers from the image, but right now they are
still there and can be used.

David