[squeak-dev] Squeak image for PDAs ?

I just bought a Sharp SL-C760 Linux PDA and I would really like to run Squeak
on it and write my own PIM application. I don't know how big an image I can
run there, so I am looking for a small image. So far I tried the following:

o Run Smalltalk majorShrink (after making an MVC project the toplevel one)

This printed some warnings got my CPU to 100% for an hour or so and never
finished.

o Dynapad

All the links to Dynapad resources seem to be dead. I suppose Dynapad is named
after Dynabook which only existed as a cardboard prototype, but I really like
the idea of Dynabook. Now isn't that a tragedy: now we have all the pieces
together, we have the hardware and we have Squeak, but a working Dynabook
seems to be as distant as ever.

o Kernelimage

I got some Kernelimages (morphic basic and morphicExt) and they do start, but
they seem to be full of loose ends. It doesn't take much to end up in the
emergency debugger (e.g. click on "appearence"), so I don't have much faith
in those images.

I suppose I could live with an MVC only image.

Is anyone using Squeak on a handheld? Could you give me some pointers to a
suitable image file or instructions how to build one myself?

Thanks

--
Martin

On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 07:51:21 +0100, Martin Drautzburg wrote:

> I just bought a Sharp SL-C760 Linux PDA and I would really like to run  
> Squeak
> on it and write my own PIM application. I don't know how big an image I  
> can run there, so I am looking for a small image.

Squeak's Scratch .image is ca. 5-6 MB, and it experimenta Linux support

- http://info.scratch.mit.edu/Linux_installer

...
> I suppose I could live with an MVC only image.

The Scratch application is a very professional example, it's morphic with  
lots of things which just work out-of-the-box. If I where to run Squeak on  
a Linux PDA then I'd try to start with Scratch as base.

--
"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it".  
Albert Einstein

On 3/16/09 3:51 AM, "Martin Drautzburg" <[hidden email]> wrote:

The old SqueakLight is for you.
In his bare form have 3.7 mb and is 3.7 compatible.
In his .dev form , you could download from http://www.squeak.org/Download/
I don't follow this now, my current work is the more advanced Squeak ,
SqueakLightII, see http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/6056

I afraid the move to 3.8 and beyond have the collateral damage of bigger
size and I have experiments showing no useful image could have less of 5 to
6 Mb in size and being compatible with newest tools and projects.

I scheduled myself for connecting to IRC 09:00 to 11:00 Argentina or +3 GMT
for any help you ask

Edgar

Thanks to all, I tried your suggestions:

@Edgar J. De Cleene
> The old SqueakLight is for you.
> In his bare form have 3.7 mb and is 3.7 compatible.

Wow, this is pretty recent stuff.  The newer images I donwloaded from
http://ftp.squeak.org/various_images/SqueakLight/ are still >11M (The *zip*
file is about the size you mention). This is a lot, considering the comSwiki
image, which also includes morphic, is only 6.3 MB and a pharo image is 16
MB. However there is an older image in SqueakLight.411.zip  which is 5.5 MB.
So far this is the smallest useable image I could find.

@Vaidotas Didžbalis
> I am using  Squeak 3.7 image with majorShrink applied

All my attempts to do a major shrink failed miserably. Probably I am doing it
the wrong way. Information is confusing. Some say it doesn't work, some say I
mustn't use the method provided with the image. I seems to be much easier to
write Smalltalk code than to get rid of it.

 
@Klaus D. Witzel
> Squeak's Scratch .image is ca. 5-6 MB, and it experimenta Linux support

Well than one is nice and small. I got a problem with primSoundStop, but
that's the least of my worries. The thing is - I just couln't do anything
useful with it. It looks like polished etoys to me.

I never quite understood etoys and it would be among the first things I would
want to get rid of. I am just not a big fan of "graphical programming", I
want a Browser, a Debugger and all that shit where Smalltalk really shines, I
am happy to enter program text and I have no urge to move sprites around.


--
Martin

Gulik.


--
http://gulik.pbwiki.com/

On 3/16/09 5:22 PM, "Martin Drautzburg" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Wow, this is pretty recent stuff.  The newer images I donwloaded from
> http://ftp.squeak.org/various_images/SqueakLight/ are still >11M (The *zip*
> file is about the size you mention). This is a lot, considering the comSwiki
> image, which also includes morphic, is only 6.3 MB and a pharo image is 16
> MB. However there is an older image in SqueakLight.411.zip  which is 5.5 MB.
> So far this is the smallest useable image I could find.


I try to answer...
SqueakLight have a long history , as you could read in
http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3935
Was a 3.7 hand cut image and I never put the smallest 3.7 Mb image for
download , but have many ready to run images as old as 2003.
In fact I hope Morphle http://morphle.com/  could let all this images could
be downloaded .
Send mail to Merik for all could see and download /
ComSwiki is a 3.7 image, Morphic 3.0 is also a 3.7 image, all 3.7 image is
smaller as any 3.8 and beyond as I said before.

SqueakLightII is a 3.10 image without
    * Tests-
    * SMLoader
    * SMBase
    * Sunit
    * SUnitGUI
    * ScriptLoader
    * Universes
    * Installer
    * XML-Parser
    * MorphicExtras-Demo
    * Morphic-CandidatesForGo
    * Nebraska
    * EToys
And in http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/6056 you could read how to load many
old and new projects.
I have also a .dev and a FunSqueak based on top the "base" image which is
10.7 Mb

SqueakLightII was build on top of 3.9, using a ReleaseBuilderFor3dot11 class
as Ralph and Bert teach me almost 3 years ago, but with only .cs.
So is not hand cut and have same process as older 3.8 release.

So I could put any valid 3.7 compatible project in "less of 4 mb" and made a
RTS system with it.
Still can't put any 3.10 compatible project in "less of 6 mb", but stay
tuned.

Scratch is 2.x based, no modern tools could run on it and no easy way to
move from Scratch to Squeak 3.10 or viceversa

Edgar

I note if you dispose of the MC data structures you'll find they take  
as much as 4 or 5 MB in a Pharo image.

Although it loses all the history and linkage to the repositories,  
it's a worthwhile endeavour when deploying on a confined memory device.

On 16-Mar-09, at 1:22 PM, Martin Drautzburg wrote:

> a pharo image is 16 MB.

--
=
=
=
========================================================================
John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]>
Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
=
=
=
========================================================================

I have a stripped image that weighs in at 1.7M. MVC only, basic ST80 IDE plus changeSorter, methodFinder and the like. Very functional.
We used it as a starting point for our Tilera TILE64 VM port since we could run the entire image in cache ;-)
I can send a copy to interested parties, though I'm not ready to post it on the web.
Regards,
Sam


Sam S. Adams, IBM Distinguished Engineer, IBM Research
Asst: Brenda Robinson, tie 444-1497, outside 919-254-1497
Mobile: 919-696-6064, email: [hidden email]
<<Hebrews 11:6, Proverbs 3:5-6, Romans 1:16-17, I Corinthians 1:10>>


John M McIntosh ---03/16/2009 07:44:54 PM---I note if you dispose of the MC data structures you'll find they take

John M McIntosh <[hidden email]> Sent by: [hidden email] 03/16/2009 07:44 PM Please respond to [hidden email]; Please respond to The general-purpose Squeak developers list <[hidden email]>

To The general-purpose Squeak developers list <[hidden email]> cc Subject Re: [squeak-dev] Squeak image for PDAs ?

I note if you dispose of the MC data structures you'll find they take  
as much as 4 or 5 MB in a Pharo image.

Although it loses all the history and linkage to the repositories,  
it's a worthwhile endeavour when deploying on a confined memory device.

On 16-Mar-09, at 1:22 PM, Martin Drautzburg wrote:

> a pharo image is 16 MB.

--
=
=
=
========================================================================
John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]>
Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
=
=
=
========================================================================

On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 21:22:37 +0100, Martin Drautzburg wrote:

> Thanks to all, I tried your suggestions:
...
> @Klaus D. Witzel
>> Squeak's Scratch .image is ca. 5-6 MB, and it experimenta Linux support
>
> Well than one is nice and small. I got a problem with primSoundStop, but
> that's the least of my worries. The thing is - I just couln't do anything
> useful with it. It looks like polished etoys to me.

Have you checked their dev image

- http://info.scratch.mit.edu/Source_Code

> I never quite understood etoys and it would be among the first things I  
> would
> want to get rid of. I am just not a big fan of "graphical programming", I
> want a Browser, a Debugger and all that shit where Smalltalk really  
> shines, I
> am happy to enter program text and I have no urge to move sprites around.

Sure, that's what a dev .image is about: browser & debugger & friends.

>

--
"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it".  
Albert Einstein

On Tuesday, 17. March 2009 03:54:42 Klaus D. Witzel wrote:

>
> Have you checked their dev image
>
> - http://info.scratch.mit.edu/Source_Code

Yeah, thats more like it. However I get yet another primitive failed error,
this time it is primSetFont. I suppose I am not using the proper VM (though I
tried three different ones), or I am lacking a plugin.


--
Martin

On Tuesday, 17. March 2009 07:49:25 Martin Drautzburg wrote:
> , or I am lacking a plugin.
Sorry for that. Found the ScratchPlugin ... much better now.


--
Martin

Martin Drautzburg wrote:
> I just bought a Sharp SL-C760 Linux PDA and I would really like to run Squeak
> on it and write my own PIM application. I don't know how big an image I can
> run there, so I am looking for a small image.
> ...
>  

Might be useful: http://ftp.squeak.org/2.3/ 
http://ftp.squeak.org/SmallSqueaksForPDAs/MiniSqueak2.2/

Cheers,
Juan Vuletich