[squeak-dev] The Old Man

>
> "One of the sad memories of my life is a visit to the celebrated
> mathematician and inventor, Mr Babbage. He was far advanced in age,
> but his mind was still as vigorous as ever. He took me through his
> work-rooms. In the first room I saw parts of the original Calculating
> Machine, which had been shown in an incomplete state many years before
> and had even been put to some use. I asked him about its present form.
> 'I have not finished it because in working at it I came on the idea of
> my Analytical Machine, which would do all that it was capable of doing
> and much more. Indeed, the idea was so much simpler that it would have
> taken more work to complete the Calculating Machine than to design and
> construct the other in its entirety, so I turned my attention to the
> Analytical Machine.'"
>
> "After a few minutes' talk, we went into the next work-room, where he
> showed and explained to me the working of the elements of the
> Analytical Machine. I asked if I could see it. 'I have never completed
> it,' he said, 'because I hit upon an idea of doing the same thing by a
> different and far more effective method, and this rendered it useless
> to proceed on the old lines.' Then we went into the third room. There
> lay scattered bits of mechanism, but I saw no trace of any working
> machine. Very cautiously I approached the subject, and received the
> dreaded answer, 'It is not constructed yet, but I am working on it,
> and it will take less time to construct it altogether than it would
> have token to complete the Analytical Machine from the stage in which
> I left it.' I took leave of the old man with a heavy heart."
>
>                                                                    
> --    Lord Moulton
> --
> Marcus Denker  --  [hidden email]
> http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~denker
>
>
>
>
>

> Marcus Denker wrote:
>>
>> "One of the sad memories of my life is a visit to the celebrated  
>> mathematician and inventor, Mr Babbage. He was far advanced in age,  
>> but his mind was still as vigorous as ever. He took me through his  
>> work-rooms. In the first room I saw parts of the original  
>> Calculating Machine, which had been shown in an incomplete state  
>> many years before and had even been put to some use. I asked him  
>> about its present form. 'I have not finished it because in working  
>> at it I came on the idea of my Analytical Machine, which would do  
>> all that it was capable of doing and much more. Indeed, the idea  
>> was so much simpler that it would have taken more work to complete  
>> the Calculating Machine than to design and construct the other in  
>> its entirety, so I turned my attention to the Analytical Machine.'"
>>
>> "After a few minutes' talk, we went into the next work-room, where  
>> he showed and explained to me the working of the elements of the  
>> Analytical Machine. I asked if I could see it. 'I have never  
>> completed it,' he said, 'because I hit upon an idea of doing the  
>> same thing by a different and far more effective method, and this  
>> rendered it useless to proceed on the old lines.' Then we went into  
>> the third room. There lay scattered bits of mechanism, but I saw no  
>> trace of any working machine. Very cautiously I approached the  
>> subject, and received the dreaded answer, 'It is not constructed  
>> yet, but I am working on it, and it will take less time to  
>> construct it altogether than it would have token to complete the  
>> Analytical Machine from the stage in which I left it.' I took leave  
>> of the old man with a heavy heart."
>>
>>                                                                    
>> --    Lord Moulton
>> --
>> Marcus Denker  --  [hidden email]
>> http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~denker
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Made me think of the story of John Harrison, but he succeeded...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harrison

>
> "One of the sad memories of my life is a visit to the celebrated
> mathematician and inventor, Mr Babbage. He was far advanced in age,
> but his mind was still as vigorous as ever. He took me through his
> work-rooms. In the first room I saw parts of the original Calculating
> Machine, which had been shown in an incomplete state many years before
> and had even been put to some use. I asked him about its present form.
> 'I have not finished it because in working at it I came on the idea of
> my Analytical Machine, which would do all that it was capable of doing
> and much more. Indeed, the idea was so much simpler that it would have
> taken more work to complete the Calculating Machine than to design and
> construct the other in its entirety, so I turned my attention to the
> Analytical Machine.'"
>
> "After a few minutes' talk, we went into the next work-room, where he
> showed and explained to me the working of the elements of the
> Analytical Machine. I asked if I could see it. 'I have never completed
> it,' he said, 'because I hit upon an idea of doing the same thing by a
> different and far more effective method, and this rendered it useless
> to proceed on the old lines.' Then we went into the third room. There
> lay scattered bits of mechanism, but I saw no trace of any working
> machine. Very cautiously I approached the subject, and received the
> dreaded answer, 'It is not constructed yet, but I am working on it,
> and it will take less time to construct it altogether than it would
> have token to complete the Analytical Machine from the stage in which
> I left it.' I took leave of the old man with a heavy heart."
>
>                                                                    
> --    Lord Moulton
> --
> Marcus Denker  --  [hidden email]
> http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~denker
>
>
>
>
>

> Hello...
>
> I can't help the feeling that this is derogatory of the work of
> Babbage on the grounds that he never completed anything.  I thought
> that without knowing the specifics, it's easy to dismiss the fact that
> Babbage was trying to do what had not been achieved before.  Moreover,
> I think it is just as easy to miss the fact that we enjoy about 150
> years of efficiencies gained in our work processes that were not
> available at his time.
>
> I suspected there was something wrong here, particularly from what I
> had studied about history of mathematics, so I did a little research.  
> From Wikipedia, we find out the following...
>
> "*Charles Babbage* FRS <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Society>
> (26 December <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_26> 1791
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1791> London
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London>, England
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England> – 18 October
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_18> 1871
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1871> Marylebone
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marylebone>, London
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London>, England
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England> ^[1]
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Babbage#cite_note-0> ) was an
> English <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England> mathematician
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematician>, philosopher
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosopher>, and mechanical engineer
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_engineer> who originated the
> idea of a programmable computer
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer>. Parts of his uncompleted
> mechanisms are on display in the London Science Museum
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Science_Museum>. In 1991 a
> perfectly functioning difference engine
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Difference_engine> was constructed from
> Babbage's original plans. Built to tolerances achievable in the 19th
> century, the success of the finished engine indicated that Babbage's
> machine would have worked. Nine years later, the Science Museum
> completed the printer <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_printer>
> Babbage had designed for the difference engine, an astonishingly
> complex device for the 19th century. Babbage is credited with
> inventing the first mechanical computer that eventually led to more
> complex designs."
>
> In particular,
>
> "In 1991 a perfectly functioning difference engine
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Difference_engine> was constructed from
> Babbage's original plans. Built to tolerances achievable in the 19th
> century, the success of the finished engine indicated that Babbage's
> machine would have worked."
>
> Really?...
>
> But it gets better.  Furthermore,
>
> "Soon after the attempt at making the difference engine crumbled,
> Babbage started designing a different, more complex machine called the
> Analytical Engine <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytical_Engine>.
> The engine is not a single physical machine but a succession of
> designs that he tinkered with until his death in 1871. The main
> difference between the two engines is that the Analytical Engine could
> be programmed using punch cards
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_cards>, an idea unheard of in his
> time. He realized that programs could be put on similar cards so the
> person had to only create the program initially, and then put the
> cards in the machine and let it run. The analytical engine was also
> proposed to use loops of Jacquard
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquard_loom>'s punched cards to
> control a mechanical calculator, which could formulate results based
> on the results of preceding computations. This machine was also
> intended to employ several features subsequently used in modern
> computers, including sequential control, branching, and looping, and
> would have been the first mechanical device to be Turing-complete
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing-complete>."
>
> From this, it would appear to be that Lord Moulton missed the point.  
> I wouldn't blame him for that.
>
> Andres.
>
> PS: either the 1870 or 1880 US census was the first one done with the
> assistance of punched cards.  IIRC, it was the 1880 one.
>
>
> Marcus Denker wrote:
>>
>> "One of the sad memories of my life is a visit to the celebrated
>> mathematician and inventor, Mr Babbage. He was far advanced in age,
>> but his mind was still as vigorous as ever. He took me through his
>> work-rooms. In the first room I saw parts of the original Calculating
>> Machine, which had been shown in an incomplete state many years
>> before and had even been put to some use. I asked him about its
>> present form. 'I have not finished it because in working at it I came
>> on the idea of my Analytical Machine, which would do all that it was
>> capable of doing and much more. Indeed, the idea was so much simpler
>> that it would have taken more work to complete the Calculating
>> Machine than to design and construct the other in its entirety, so I
>> turned my attention to the Analytical Machine.'"
>>
>> "After a few minutes' talk, we went into the next work-room, where he
>> showed and explained to me the working of the elements of the
>> Analytical Machine. I asked if I could see it. 'I have never
>> completed it,' he said, 'because I hit upon an idea of doing the same
>> thing by a different and far more effective method, and this rendered
>> it useless to proceed on the old lines.' Then we went into the third
>> room. There lay scattered bits of mechanism, but I saw no trace of
>> any working machine. Very cautiously I approached the subject, and
>> received the dreaded answer, 'It is not constructed yet, but I am
>> working on it, and it will take less time to construct it altogether
>> than it would have token to complete the Analytical Machine from the
>> stage in which I left it.' I took leave of the old man with a heavy
>> heart."
>>
>>                                                                    
>> --    Lord Moulton
>> --
>> Marcus Denker  --  [hidden email]
>> http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~denker
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] En
> nombre de Marcus Denker
> Enviado el: Domingo, 30 de Marzo de 2008 17:09
> Para: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
> Asunto: [squeak-dev] The Old Man
>
>
> "One of the sad memories of my life is a visit to the celebrated  
> mathematician and inventor, Mr Babbage. He was far advanced in age,  
> but his mind was still as vigorous as ever. He took me through his  
> work-rooms. In the first room I saw parts of the original
> Calculating  
> Machine, which had been shown in an incomplete state many
> years before  
> and had even been put to some use. I asked him about its
> present form.  
> 'I have not finished it because in working at it I came on
> the idea of  
> my Analytical Machine, which would do all that it was capable
> of doing  
> and much more. Indeed, the idea was so much simpler that it
> would have  
> taken more work to complete the Calculating Machine than to
> design and  
> construct the other in its entirety, so I turned my attention to the  
> Analytical Machine.'"
>
> "After a few minutes' talk, we went into the next work-room,
> where he  
> showed and explained to me the working of the elements of the  
> Analytical Machine. I asked if I could see it. 'I have never
> completed  
> it,' he said, 'because I hit upon an idea of doing the same
> thing by a  
> different and far more effective method, and this rendered it
> useless  
> to proceed on the old lines.' Then we went into the third
> room. There  
> lay scattered bits of mechanism, but I saw no trace of any working  
> machine. Very cautiously I approached the subject, and received the  
> dreaded answer, 'It is not constructed yet, but I am working on it,  
> and it will take less time to construct it altogether than it would  
> have token to complete the Analytical Machine from the stage
> in which  
> I left it.' I took leave of the old man with a heavy heart."
>
>
>
> -- Lord Moulton
> --
> Marcus Denker  --  [hidden email]
> http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~denker
>
>
>
>

> Alan Kay is working on this in the STEPS project:
> http://www.vpri.org/pdf/steps_TR-2007-008.pdf (4.4 Mb)
>
>  From page 4:
> "We think students are interested because this project seems new and a  
> little unusual, and the business folk because the aim is to reduce the  
> amount of code needed to make systems by a factor of 100, 1000, 10,000  
> or more."
>
> R
> -

> Mr Babbage's personality, though the cause of the problem that left Lord
> Moulton so sad, was also the very thing that allowed such fantastic
> projects to be attempted at all. I see such "defects" in myself and
> personally know a couple more people like that. I also know a few more
> who see themselves as misunderstood geniuses but who are really plain
> crazy. Hardly anybody seems to be able to tell them apart.
>
> -- Jecel
>
>
>  

> Bert,
>
> Please, could you be more concrete, what means: "people do for fun"?  
> (CADT - is not an explanation ..as it is joking)
> I could argue that the all significant projects were doing by people  
> not for getting "fun" from the "developement or any other  
> process" (aka "masturbation", if seriously),
> but with the generous, unselfish ideas of  "changing the around  
> world" and continuing themeselves in project's "childs".
> Don't think that all people just working for money or for "fun"  
> while eating chocolate, gaming and drinking beer after work.. and  
> believe, that nothing "fun" for the rest of the world couldn't be  
> expected from such work (paid or unpaid)..

> Best regards,
> Nikolay Suslov
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:13 AM, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]
> > wrote:
>
>
> Well, Marcus would have to answer that himself. But there are a lot on
> unfinished projects around Squeak, like the half dozen or so GUI
> builders, and you can certainly think of more. OTOH this problem is
> not specific to Squeak, it is just the reality of a lot of unpaid
> development work which people do for fun, a.k.a. CADT:
>
>        http://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
>
> - Bert -
>
>
>
>

> The positive way of
> expressing CADT would be "burn the disk packs" and in particular in a
> research environment that is indeed the best you can do. It's simply a
> different motivation - do you build to have, or do you build to know?
> The latter does not require completion to be successful.
>
> - Bert -
>
>> Best regards,
>> Nikolay Suslov
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:13 AM, Bert Freudenberg
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Well, Marcus would have to answer that himself. But there are a lot on
>> unfinished projects around Squeak, like the half dozen or so GUI
>> builders, and you can certainly think of more. OTOH this problem is
>> not specific to Squeak, it is just the reality of a lot of unpaid
>> development work which people do for fun, a.k.a. CADT:
>>
>>        http://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
>>
>> - Bert -
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

> Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>> I was not implying that - I was referring to the many abandoned  
>> projects, not the active, flourishing ones. Again, Marcus would  
>> have to be more specific what specifically he had in mind. One  
>> example of "the perfect is the enemy of the good" are the series of  
>> JIT compiler implementations, none of which were finished, so  
>> Squeak still pretty much has the same interpreter it had ten years  
>> ago.
>
> Uhm, isn't *that* just a precise argument to the opposite?  
> Incremental improvements instead of half-finished research projects?

> Instead of rewriting the VM everytime and not quite finishing it  
> ever, the speed f the VM has doubled over the last ten years:
>
> 0 tinyBenchmarks; Squeak1.1:
>   '82740788 bytecodes/sec; 3818244 sends/sec'
>
> 0 tinyBenchmarks; Squeak3.8:
>  '191760299 bytecodes/sec; 5460228 sends/sec'
>
> Coincidentally, some of these improvements (like the at-cache) are  
> direct results of the more researchy efforts.
>
> Cheers,
>  - Andreas

>> The positive way of expressing CADT would be "burn the disk packs"  
>> and in particular in a research environment that is indeed the best  
>> you can do. It's simply a different motivation - do you build to  
>> have, or do you build to know? The latter does not require  
>> completion to be successful.
>> - Bert -
>>> Best regards,
>>> Nikolay Suslov
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:13 AM, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, Marcus would have to answer that himself. But there are a  
>>> lot on
>>> unfinished projects around Squeak, like the half dozen or so GUI
>>> builders, and you can certainly think of more. OTOH this problem is
>>> not specific to Squeak, it is just the reality of a lot of unpaid
>>> development work which people do for fun, a.k.a. CADT:
>>>
>>>       http://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
>>>
>>> - Bert -
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>