[squeak-dev] Trunk commits

Hi all.

Would it perhaps be better to have the automated trunk commit messages going to some other dedicated mailing list?

Gulik.

--
http://gulik.pbwiki.com/

On 23.08.2009, at 23:51, Michael van der Gulik wrote:

> Hi all.
>
> Would it perhaps be better to have the automated trunk commit  
> messages going to some other dedicated mailing list?
>
> Gulik.


I was curious how long it would take the first one to speak up :)

No, I would rather create a squeak-users list for those not interested  
in developing Squeak itself, but just "with" Squeak. IMHO the commits  
messages make the community development process visible, which is a  
Good Thing.

- Bert -

I like the commit messages. I think I may setup an inbox-rule to keep them in a nice folder, though:)

It should perhaps be considered to have a daily or even weekly commits
summary message, rather than having a message on (almost) every
commit. The point of the message is to create excitement about Squeak
core development, rather than annoying people, as far as I understand.

I have actually set up a filter to have commits in a separate folder.
However, I would certainly keep them unfiltered if it was daily or
weekly. And it should be the way to go... some commit messages spurred
discussions and it's a good thing.

Ian.
--
http://mecenia.blogspot.com/

On Monday 24 Aug 2009 3:37:13 am Bert Freudenberg wrote:
> I was curious how long it would take the first one to speak up :)
>
> No, I would rather create a squeak-users list for those not interested  
> in developing Squeak itself, but just "with" Squeak. IMHO the commits  
> messages make the community development process visible, which is a  
> Good Thing
I like the commit messages with its diff style patches. it is like any other
poster to this list. But I would hate to handle 100 commit messages in a
single day. As long as the number of postings is kept below a threshold (say
4) a day, it will serve a good purpose.

Is it possible to throttle the rate of posts? Perhaps batch it into daily
digest if it starts exceeding this threshold?

Subbu

Yea, okay.

If the traffic becomes too high, I'm sure somebody will find a way to throttle it or manage it.

Gulik.

--
http://gulik.pbwiki.com/

I personnally prefer fine grained commit reports.
The only interest of a daily/weekly commit report I see is to throw it
in one click in the garbage folder...

Nicolas

2009/8/24 Ian Trudel <[hidden email]>:

Hello Nicolas,

What are you doing with any one of these reports once you have read
it? I still think that it should be a daily or weekly digest. Then, if
some people want more thorough reports, it's possible to set up a
mailing list just for that.

There are more than 30 commits message since August, 20th. What it's
gonna be when there will be more and more active developers? There
will be no place for discussions on Squeak dev mailing list because we
are flooded by reports.

I really see this step as a manner to stimulate the community to
contribute. It shouldn't replace opening a Monticello browser and
browse through packages, where you can see the very same descriptions
and full code along side. That's how you can have thorough report
rather than on a mailing list.

Ian.

2009/8/24 Nicolas Cellier <[hidden email]>:


--
http://mecenia.blogspot.com/

Ian,

Ian Trudel wrote:
> I really see this step as a manner to stimulate the community to contribute.

There is value to these commit messages. It is a starting point to
have discussions around that upload. It makes the feedback loop
smaller (which is a good thing) and increases communication. This is a
good example of that:

http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2009-August/138587.html

--
Danie Roux *shuffle* Adore Unix - http://danieroux.com

Danie,

I agree on this very point but the problem is the increasing flow of
commit reports. What will happen when we get hundreds of them daily?
Nobody in here can handle that much and it will become pollution
rather than excitement, really.

The best way to provide and get feedback is undoubtedly in trying the
trunk, update it frequently, and report abnormal things in here.
Commit reports are also no a replacement for that, in my opinion.

My point isn't really about the value of commit reports but rather the
value of commit reports when it comes by truck loads. It's a bit
different.

Regards,
Ian

2009/8/24 Danie Roux <[hidden email]>:


--
http://mecenia.blogspot.com/

Hi,

On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 12:07 AM, Bert Freudenberg<[hidden email]> wrote:
> No, I would rather create a squeak-users list for those not interested in
> developing Squeak itself, but just "with" Squeak. IMHO the commits messages
> make the community development process visible, which is a Good Thing.

before anything else: I like the fine-grained commit messages *very*
much as they make immediately apparent what has been done, by whom,
and where it has been uploaded.

As for the target mailing list, squeak-dev has obviously moved away
from being solely about developing *Squeak*. The commit mails kind of
push the fact that squeak-dev, after all, *is* a developers' list, in
people's faces. Asking all users not interested in Squeak
*development* to go and join another list may be asking too much; it
has a distinct smell of "go away if you're not interested in this".
(I'm deliberately exaggerating a bit here.)

As for developers, some of them may rather like to inform themselves
about commits in a batch-oriented way; this has been asked for
already. A dedicated commit mailing list can be configured to send
single e-mails or batches by each subscriber.

In a nutshell, I'd opt for a commit mailing list.

Best,

Michael

On 24.08.2009, at 10:09, Michael Haupt wrote:


How about this -

PROPOSAL: we make the detailed commit notices go to a separate list as  
soon as someone has added a "digest" feature. This would send a daily  
or weekly summary to squeak-dev, containing just the commit summary a  
link to the detailed diffs. Bonus points for listing affected classes.

Btw, the code is at http://squeaksource.com/ss.html

- Bert -

Bert Freudenberg wrote:
Hah, yes indeed :)

> No, I would rather create a squeak-users list for those not interested
> in developing Squeak itself, but just "with" Squeak. IMHO the commits
> messages make the community development process visible, which is a Good
> Thing.

Well, while they are a bit noisy, I don't mind them, and they _do_
provide visibility into the process. I can't say I read all of them, but
   I like having the option of just skimming diffs if I feel the urge.

Other mailing lists do the same: slime-devel have a "Daily Commit Log"
message. That might be an option if people find the messages TOO noisy:
bundle the commits into a single message per day. Pros: less noise on
the list; cons: higher latency for those interested. But, I guess, one
could have BOTH: a daily message with all the commits (or a summary, if
the message ends up bigger than 100K) to squeak-dev and, er, a
squeak-dev-dev for the full fat option.

frank

On 24.08.2009, at 11:24, Frank Shearar wrote:


That's precisely what I proposed an hour before ;) Wanna work on it?

- Bert -

Bert Freudenberg wrote:
This is a fine example of what high latency does :). I saw your earlier
mail, typed up my response, and THEN read the next 10 hours or so of the
list :)

Er, did I just put my neck out? I won't promise anything, but I'll
definitely take a look. (I've two or three deadlines rushing down on me
at the moment.)

frank

On 24-Aug-09, at 12:55 AM, Ian Trudel wrote:

> Danie,
>
> I agree on this very point but the problem is the increasing flow of
> commit reports. What will happen when we get hundreds of them daily?
> Nobody in here can handle that much and it will become pollution
> rather than excitement, really.

That would be a great problem to have! Hundreds of commits per day.  
Wow. All the other Squeak distributions would be jealous of the  
progress we'd be making!

> My point isn't really about the value of commit reports but rather the
> value of commit reports when it comes by truck loads. It's a bit
> different.

Ok... but they don't come by the truck load just yet. Why worry about  
it until they do?

Colin

2009/8/24 Colin Putney <[hidden email]>:
> That would be a great problem to have! Hundreds of commits per day. Wow. All
> the other Squeak distributions would be jealous of the progress we'd be
> making!

Obviously. =)

>> My point isn't really about the value of commit reports but rather the
>> value of commit reports when it comes by truck loads. It's a bit
>> different.
>
> Ok... but they don't come by the truck load just yet. Why worry about it
> until they do?

Here's the thing: there is a lot of laissez-faire already. The image
is messy, the wiki/documentation are messy, and it goes on and on.
We'll fix later sounds like a motto. We certainly cannot step ahead
every problem but we should at least take time to think, if only the
time of a discussion.

2009/8/24 Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]>:
> How about this -
>
> PROPOSAL: we make the detailed commit notices go to a separate list as soon
> as someone has added a "digest" feature. This would send a daily or weekly
> summary to squeak-dev, containing just the commit summary a link to the
> detailed diffs. Bonus points for listing affected classes.

Sounds good.

Regards,
Ian.
--
http://mecenia.blogspot.com/

On 24-Aug-09, at 1:27 AM, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

> PROPOSAL: we make the detailed commit notices go to a separate list  
> as soon as someone has added a "digest" feature. This would send a  
> daily or weekly summary to squeak-dev, containing just the commit  
> summary a link to the detailed diffs. Bonus points for listing  
> affected classes.

-1.

There are two problems with this. First, batching the commit messages  
lengthens the feedback loop that the messages create. If there's a  
message for every commit, the message can be sent right after the  
commit is made. The community can react and provide feedback to the  
developer immediately. If that feedback days or even just a few hours,  
it's too late to be useful. The developer has moved on mentally, and  
even if he can remember exactly what he did and why, it's no longer  
fresh in his mind.

Second, the worry that individual messages demand too much attention  
is certainly legitimate. But by batching the messages into a digest we  
actually make it harder to manage those demands for attention. Most  
email clients offer filtering systems that allow messages to be  
processed automatically; with automatically generated message like  
these message filters are very effective. Even if you process the  
messages manually, it's easy to scan the subject lines and read only  
those messages that are interesting to you. But a daily or weekly  
digest is much more difficult to process automatically. It's also  
harder to process manually - you have to not only scan for the  
packages you're interested in, but skip over the details of the  
commits that are not interesting.

In short, daily or weekly digests are great if you want to ignore the  
messages entirely, but not so useful if you want to actually read and  
respond to them.

Colin