Squeak - Dev - [squeak-dev]( picoVerse-:( ? MIT vs LGPL ? ) )

[squeak-dev]( picoVerse-:( ? MIT vs LGPL ? ) )

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Kjell Godo

[squeak-dev]( picoVerse-:( ? MIT vs LGPL ? ) )

Which is better if you want Smalltalk code to be includeable in the base Squeak?

MIT or LGPL?

I have a large Generator Package(s) that is all marked up as GPL in Dolphin Smalltalk.

I think that this Generator stuff could take a place alongside Collections and Streams

in the base Squeak / Croquet image.

I am reluctant to think about porting from Dolphin to Squeak. I tend to sign myself

up for things that I can't do. I'm gung ho for about a day and then reality sets in.

It's easier just to talk. To dream. But I guess the idea that it might get into the Squeak

image makes it more attractive. To try. To even think about.

( Some resistances come to mind.

Perhaps it's not up to the generally accepted practice of including practically zero

documentation? And could not be included for that reason? The change log is

too big. There are long rants in there. poetics. nonsense. the included text

looks like some Mandelbrot set? With too many usage examples and ideas

written into the comments? )

Are there any automated ways of going from Dolphin to Squeak?

File out Class by Class and fileIn and copy method by method?

If I strip out some stuff from Dolphin Packages would they just fileIn to Squeak?

But if there are no loose methods in Squeak Packages then the whole thing is

impossible.

It would be cool if there was some standard way to transfer code between the

different Smalltalks. But I guess they are just too different. And the idea of

making a commonality comes and goes. But never sticks.

-Kjell

Randal L. Schwartz

Re: [squeak-dev]( picoVerse-:( ? MIT vs LGPL ? ) )

>>>>> "Kjell" == Kjell Godo <[hidden email]> writes:

Kjell> Which is better if you want Smalltalk code to be includeable in the base
Kjell> Squeak?

Kjell> MIT or LGPL?

Since the LGPL is not acceptable at all for the Squeak core, MIT wins by
default there. To be precise, you should look at the new Squeak license, and
conform to it.

If you want to distribute your code outside the core (like on Squeakmap), LGPL
is fine. However, keep in mind that some users will *not* be able to select
GPL/LGPL for deployment, so you reduce the scope of usefulness for your tool.

Also note that unless you are the sole author (copyright holder in the eyes of
the law), you can't relicense code at will. You will have to get hardcopy
evidence of everyone who has contributed to agree. This is similar to the
process that the Squeak core is currently undergoing.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

Andreas.Raab

[squeak-dev] Re: ( picoVerse-:( ? MIT vs LGPL ? ) )

Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>>>>>> "Kjell" == Kjell Godo <[hidden email]> writes:
>
> Kjell> Which is better if you want Smalltalk code to be includeable in the base
> Kjell> Squeak?
>
> Kjell> MIT or LGPL?
>
> Since the LGPL is not acceptable at all for the Squeak core, MIT wins by
> default there.

Ditto for Croquet. No contributions will be accepted into core that
aren't MIT-licensed.

Cheers,
- Andreas

Randal L. Schwartz

Re: [squeak-dev]( picoVerse-:( ? MIT vs LGPL ? ) )

In reply to this post by Randal L. Schwartz

>>>>> "Randal" == Randal L Schwartz <[hidden email]> writes:

Randal> Also note that unless you are the sole author (copyright holder in the
Randal> eyes of the law), you can't relicense code at will. You will have to
Randal> get hardcopy evidence of everyone who has contributed to agree. This
Randal> is similar to the process that the Squeak core is currently
Randal> undergoing.

And on re-reading your (oddly formatted :) message, I see that you intend to
take code that has been distributed with Dolphin ST under the LGPL, and merely
"port" it. Well, that's not going to release it from the LPGL, unless you get
the permission from the original authors to relicense it in writing. Or, you
can just write the code in a clean room from scratch, but you should wait a
few months so that you don't accidentally do it the same way as the code you
saw, which would be a derived work. Ugh.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

Michael van der Gulik-2

Re: [squeak-dev]( picoVerse-:( ? MIT vs LGPL ? ) )

In reply to this post by Kjell Godo

On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 10:05:03 -0700
"Kjell Godo" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> ( Some resistances come to mind.
> Perhaps it's not up to the generally accepted practice of including
> practically zero
> documentation? And could not be included for that reason? The change log
> is
> too big. There are long rants in there. poetics. nonsense. the included
> text
> looks like some Mandelbrot set? With too many usage examples and ideas
> written into the comments? )

I see our resident poet is back :-).

http://www.google.com/search?q=picoverse+squeak

Gulik.

--
Michael van der Gulik <[hidden email]>

Kjell Godo

Re: [squeak-dev]( picoVerse-:( ? MIT vs LGPL ? ) )

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH - ! ! !

If you praise me I will fly through the ceiling and break my neck.
If you pan me I will sweat and my palms will tingle.
It's better if I don't read your replys.
But that gets me nowhere.

Now Where is this new Squeak License.

Or as he said in Screamers: What Other Type?

On 3/27/08, Michael van der Gulik <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 10:05:03 -0700
> "Kjell Godo" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> > ( Some resistances come to mind.
> > Perhaps it's not up to the generally accepted practice of including
> > practically zero
> > documentation? And could not be included for that reason? The change log
> > is
> > too big. There are long rants in there. poetics. nonsense. the
> included
> > text
> > looks like some Mandelbrot set? With too many usage examples and ideas
> > written into the comments? )
>
>
> I see our resident poet is back :-).
>
> http://www.google.com/search?q=picoverse+squeak
>
> Gulik.
>
> --
> Michael van der Gulik <[hidden email]>
>
>

Kjell Godo

Re: [squeak-dev]( picoVerse-:( ? MIT vs LGPL ? ) )

The Squeak License seems to be an old one from the Apple days.

I found the MIT license at http://www.opensource.org/licenses/mit-license.php

Is this the one you are talking about?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The MIT License

Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy
of this software and associated documentation files (the "Software"), to deal
in the Software without restriction, including without limitation the rights
to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell
copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the Software is
furnished to do so, subject to the following conditions:

The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in
all copies or substantial portions of the Software.

THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR
IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER LIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE, ARISING FROM, OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN THE SOFTWARE.

==============================================

So it seems to me that this license means that anyone P can do whatever they want with The Software as long as the permission notice is included in the derivative work which would then give anybody else P1 the same rights in the derivative work? To do whatever they P1 want with the derivative work?

On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Kjell Godo <[hidden email]> wrote:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH - ! ! !

If you praise me I will fly through the ceiling and break my neck.
If you pan me I will sweat and my palms will tingle.
It's better if I don't read your replys.
But that gets me nowhere.

Now Where is this new Squeak License.

Or as he said in Screamers: What Other Type?

On 3/27/08, Michael van der Gulik <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 10:05:03 -0700
> "Kjell Godo" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> > ( Some resistances come to mind.
> > Perhaps it's not up to the generally accepted practice of including
> > practically zero
> > documentation? And could not be included for that reason? The change log
> > is
> > too big. There are long rants in there. poetics. nonsense. the
> included
> > text
> > looks like some Mandelbrot set? With too many usage examples and ideas
> > written into the comments? )
>
>
> I see our resident poet is back :-).
>
> http://www.google.com/search?q=picoverse+squeak
>
> Gulik.
>
> --
> Michael van der Gulik <[hidden email]>
>
>

Nicolas Cellier-3

[squeak-dev] Re: ( picoVerse-:( ? MIT vs LGPL ? ) )

Kjell Godo a écrit :

> The Squeak License seems to be an old one from the Apple days.
>
> I found the MIT license at
> http://www.opensource.org/licenses/mit-license.php
> <http://www.opensource.org/>
>
> Is this the one you are talking about?
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The MIT License
>
> Copyright (c) <year> <copyright holders>
>
> Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy
> of this software and associated documentation files (the "Software"), to
> deal
> in the Software without restriction, including without limitation the rights
> to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell
> copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the Software is
> furnished to do so, subject to the following conditions:
>
> The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in
> all copies or substantial portions of the Software.
>
> THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR
> IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY,
> FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL
> THE AUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR
> OTHER LIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE,
> ARISING FROM, OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR
> OTHER DEALINGS IN THE SOFTWARE.
>
> ==============================================
>
> So it seems to me that this license means that anyone P can do
> whatever they want with The Software as long as the permission notice is
> included in the derivative work which would then give anybody else
> P1 the same rights in the derivative work? To do whatever they P1 want
> with the derivative work?
>

This applies to copy of the software (original soure code).
If you distribute any other form (exe, dll, image...), then do what you
want.

Nicolas

Randal L. Schwartz

Re: [squeak-dev]( picoVerse-:( ? MIT vs LGPL ? ) )

In reply to this post by Kjell Godo

>>>>> "Kjell" == Kjell Godo <[hidden email]> writes:

Kjell> The Squeak License seems to be an old one from the Apple days.
Kjell> I found the MIT license at
Kjell> http://www.opensource.org/licenses/mit-license.php<http://www.opensource.org/>

Kjell> Is this the one you are talking about?

Yes. That's the URL also mentioned here:

http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/uploads/6016/SqueakDistributionAgreement.pdf

which is the document being signed by past core contributors to relicense
their individual contributions from the "old" Squeak-L to the modern MIT
license.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!