Hi,
anyone tried to put a squeak vm on an iRex iLiad or knows anything about it? http://www.irextechnologies.com/products/iliad It's an xscale based hardware. thanks, Norbert |
On 13-Oct-07, at 3:22 AM, Norbert Hartl wrote: > Hi, > > anyone tried to put a squeak vm on an iRex iLiad > or knows anything about it? I'm sure we could make a VM that would run on it but I'm also sure that you'd need a fairly different image to be of any use. You certainly wouldn't want any background processing constantly updating animations, for example. The performance would be probably be fine with an MVC type image, lousy with Morphic - these displays are generally slow to update and most of the power consumption is in the changing of pixels.. Memory is pretty minimal and there's no immmediately obvious info on how much might be available to an application like Squeak. I'd love to be able to work on something like this though. After all it's a contemporary version of the Active Book I was working on nearly 20 years ago... tim -- tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim "How many Trinoc does it take to change a lightbulb?" "Why do you want to know about our maintenance schedules? Are you planning to attack us in the dark?" |
tim Rowledge wrote:
> > I'd love to be able to work on something like this though. After all > it's a contemporary version of the Active Book I was working on > nearly 20 years ago... can you tell us more about the Active Book you worked on 20 years ago? |
On 13-Oct-07, at 12:17 PM, Brad Fuller wrote: > can you tell us more about the Active Book you worked on 20 years ago? Oh my, most of the old-timers will know that I can go on about that for hours. Days! OK, try to keep it short tim - The Active Book was a neat idea (especially for 1988) to make a portable tablet like computer with a digitiser screen, lots of power and a decent user interface. In short, someone's idea of a dynabook. The UI concept was to emulate a book but extend the idiom in the ways that a dynamic system could allow. So, documents were to be on pages and flipping pages would move between docs and the systems running them. No real use for overlapping windows - they were a foreign concept to almost everyone outside a limited world back then. The idea of the book was really to provide a concept of a contained world with logical separation between parts; just like a book has everything between the front and back pages and separated into chapters etc. I suspect it wouldn't really seem so neat these days now that we're all so used to Windows and OSX etc. The hardware was about the size of a MacBook, a bit thicker since the practical batteries back then were rather large cylinders. It had a whopping great big screen of amazing 640 by 400 resolution, monchrome. There was stylus based digitiser and a panel to one side (can't remember which) that was a finger activated digitiser, intended for 'other input'. I'm pretty sure it was Bill Buxton that convinced them of the usefulness of that idea. It had an ARM2aS cpu running at 4MHz (maybe 6?) and 1Mb ram for everything - screen memory, fax filing, OS, the lot. Oh and 1Mb ROM too. The ARM was custom designed in-house to extend the basic ARM architecture to allow implementation as a static logic part, meaning we could simply turn off the power and it would sit there until it was time to go again. For cpu history buffs, the ARM 2 series had no cache; none at all. Not even an instruction prefetch queue. It was the first broadly used RISC machine (yes I know about the Sparc) and required whopping great 25,000 transistors worth of silicon. In fact we used to joke about '25,000 transistors and no Gates'. Even the latest ARM cores need barely 50,00 transistors I'm told. Despite the above, the Acorn desktop machines that were on sale back then and using the base ARM2 cpus were several times faster than the hottest intel based boxes of the time. The OS was a version of Helios (eek, I still have a copy of the Helios manual in my bookshelf!) which I think started out life as TripOS at Cambridge (the real university, not the US) as a multi- processor system using messaging, or something like that. It was wrapped in a unix-like layer to please the unix-weenies. On top of that was Smalltalk. The VM was derived from EliotMiranda's famous BrouHaHa with a lot of extension for multiple non-contiguous memory spaces, ROMability, survivability, extra prims, blah blah blah. One of the acceptance tests for releases was to use up enough memory to get down to a couple of hundred bytes left and see if it could open a notifier, let the user kill the process and recover to full usefulness. Try doing that in most modern systems.. The image was licensed from ParcPlace, probably through Smalltalk Express though who knows what went on in that particular liaison? A small number of smart people worked on the image to make it do what was needed and some really interesting stuff was written. What really seems amazing to me now is that even with such a puny cpu and tiny amount of memory the UI was very snappy. You could for example draw/ scribble on the screen and produce a drawing (not a bitmp type scribble) that kept up with the scribble. Then choose the eraser and scribble with that to erase *sections* of the lines. I bet they were even the correct sections! Remember, this is a cpu with less power than the one in your keyboard, probably with less memory than in your keyboard, running a fairly simple interpreted Smalltalk VM. You can see why I've always laughed hysterically at people that tried to claim Smalltalk is slow. Anyway, we worked on this for a couple of years and the prototypes were getting good reviews from early testers. Apple was peripherally involved with the ARM since it had decide the Hobbit/CRISP that had been intended for what became the Newton was no good; around then Acorn, Apple and VTI formed ARM Ltd. Interestingly enough a little company in silicon valley decided to use the Hobbit for their attempt at a tablet; eventually they realised that the Active Book was much better and bought out the owners. And just junked everything. Oh, yes, that was ATT, who had created that dreadful thing called PenPoint and the tablet that ran it. It never went anywhere. I had one for a while. Dreadful; slow as... well about as slow as a lot of modern machines when they haven't enough memory, despite their adverts claiming how it was so fast because of the carefully hand optimised code. Oh, we should note that in the same time period there was another tablet machine around that happened to be based on Digitalk's Smalltalk; the Momenta. tim -- tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Useful random insult:- IQ = dx / (1 + dx), where x = age. |
tim Rowledge wrote:
> > On 13-Oct-07, at 12:17 PM, Brad Fuller wrote: > > >> can you tell us more about the Active Book you worked on 20 years ago? > > Oh my, most of the old-timers will know that I can go on about that > for hours. Days! > > OK, try to keep it short tim - > > The Active Book was a neat idea (especially for 1988) to make a > portable tablet like computer with a digitiser screen, lots of power > and a decent user interface. In short, someone's idea of a dynabook. > The UI concept was to emulate a book but extend the idiom in the ways > that a dynamic system could allow. So, documents were to be on pages > and flipping pages would move between docs and the systems running > them. No real use for overlapping windows - they were a foreign > concept to almost everyone outside a limited world back then. The idea > of the book was really to provide a concept of a contained world with > logical separation between parts; just like a book has everything > between the front and back pages and separated into chapters etc. I > suspect it wouldn't really seem so neat these days now that we're all > so used to Windows and OSX etc. > > The hardware was about the size of a MacBook, a bit thicker since the > practical batteries back then were rather large cylinders. It had a > whopping great big screen of amazing 640 by 400 resolution, monchrome. > There was stylus based digitiser and a panel to one side (can't > remember which) that was a finger activated digitiser, intended for > 'other input'. I'm pretty sure it was Bill Buxton that convinced them > of the usefulness of that idea. > > It had an ARM2aS cpu running at 4MHz (maybe 6?) and 1Mb ram for > everything - screen memory, fax filing, OS, the lot. Oh and 1Mb ROM > too. The ARM was custom designed in-house to extend the basic ARM > architecture to allow implementation as a static logic part, meaning > we could simply turn off the power and it would sit there until it was > time to go again. For cpu history buffs, the ARM 2 series had no > cache; none at all. Not even an instruction prefetch queue. It was the > first broadly used RISC machine (yes I know about the Sparc) and > required whopping great 25,000 transistors worth of silicon. In fact > we used to joke about '25,000 transistors and no Gates'. Even the > latest ARM cores need barely 50,00 transistors I'm told. Despite the > above, the Acorn desktop machines that were on sale back then and > using the base ARM2 cpus were several times faster than the hottest > intel based boxes of the time. > > The OS was a version of Helios (eek, I still have a copy of the Helios > manual in my bookshelf!) which I think started out life as TripOS at > Cambridge (the real university, not the US) as a multi-processor > system using messaging, or something like that. It was wrapped in a > unix-like layer to please the unix-weenies. > > On top of that was Smalltalk. The VM was derived from EliotMiranda's > famous BrouHaHa with a lot of extension for multiple non-contiguous > memory spaces, ROMability, survivability, extra prims, blah blah blah. > One of the acceptance tests for releases was to use up enough memory > to get down to a couple of hundred bytes left and see if it could open > a notifier, let the user kill the process and recover to full > usefulness. Try doing that in most modern systems.. The image was > licensed from ParcPlace, probably through Smalltalk Express though who > knows what went on in that particular liaison? A small number of smart > people worked on the image to make it do what was needed and some > really interesting stuff was written. What really seems amazing to me > now is that even with such a puny cpu and tiny amount of memory the UI > was very snappy. You could for example draw/scribble on the screen and > produce a drawing (not a bitmp type scribble) that kept up with the > scribble. Then choose the eraser and scribble with that to erase > *sections* of the lines. I bet they were even the correct sections! > Remember, this is a cpu with less power than the one in your keyboard, > probably with less memory than in your keyboard, running a fairly > simple interpreted Smalltalk VM. You can see why I've always laughed > hysterically at people that tried to claim Smalltalk is slow. > > Anyway, we worked on this for a couple of years and the prototypes > were getting good reviews from early testers. Apple was peripherally > involved with the ARM since it had decide the Hobbit/CRISP that had > been intended for what became the Newton was no good; around then > Acorn, Apple and VTI formed ARM Ltd. Interestingly enough a little > company in silicon valley decided to use the Hobbit for their attempt > at a tablet; eventually they realised that the Active Book was much > better and bought out the owners. And just junked everything. Oh, yes, > that was ATT, who had created that dreadful thing called PenPoint and > the tablet that ran it. It never went anywhere. I had one for a while. > Dreadful; slow as... well about as slow as a lot of modern machines > when they haven't enough memory, despite their adverts claiming how it > was so fast because of the carefully hand optimised code. > > Oh, we should note that in the same time period there was another > tablet machine around that happened to be based on Digitalk's > Smalltalk; the Momenta. the Momenta. I remember going somewhere (can't remember, maybe to a seminar) to see it before it came out. I thought it was great that is was based on smalltalk. Looking on the net, I see that Active Book was more than a product, it was also the name of the company by Hermann Hauser |
On 13-Oct-07, at 5:09 PM, Brad Fuller wrote: >> . > Thanks Tim. I enjoy hearing people's history with technology. My pleasure. It's always useful to remember history, especially in this industry where I bet some dork is about to try to patent the use of XOR to display a cursor on a screen. Again. > I remember the Momenta. I remember going somewhere (can't remember, > maybe to a seminar) to see it before it came out. I thought it was > great that is was based on smalltalk. Yup; basically a DigiTalk system though I *think* Dave Thomas & co @ Carleton U had something to do with the VM? > > Looking on the net, I see that Active Book was more than a product, > it was also the name of the company by Hermann Hauser Oh yes, Uncle Hermann. Charming, smart, witty, urbane, apparently very good looking (according to many women I know) and quite good to work for. Except that he totally ratted us out by selling to ATT. An interesting thing to consider is that the chumby I mentioned a few days ago (www.chumby.com) has about 100 times the cpu speed, about 100 times the memory, can drive a 800 * 600 16bpp screen and costs about $200. Oh and it does have a touchscreen as well as a few buttons. Can't help seeing some possibilities here. tim -- tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Strange OpCodes: HBT: Harvest Binary Tree |
tim Rowledge wrote:
> An interesting thing to consider is that the chumby I mentioned a few > days ago (www.chumby.com) has about 100 times the cpu speed, about 100 > times the memory, can drive a 800 * 600 16bpp screen and costs about > $200. Oh and it does have a touchscreen as well as a few buttons. > Can't help seeing some possibilities here. I checked chumby out when you mentioned it - I had never heard of it. Yeah, it seems to be a cool little thing and I could see something like displaying weather stats from Dan's weather gizmo. It could be nice to show other local home stats (cameras, security stats, status of the lights, electrical usage, etc.) instead of using a more expensive computer. You could have several around the house. (kinda like us old people who buy the cheap drug store reading glasses and sprinkle them around the house for times when we need them.) |
In reply to this post by timrowledge
On Sat, Oct 13, 2007 at 03:30:25PM -0700, tim Rowledge wrote:
> > The OS was a version of Helios (eek, I still have a copy of the > Helios manual in my bookshelf!) which I think started out life as > TripOS at Cambridge (the real university, not the US) as a multi- > processor system using messaging, or something like that. It was > wrapped in a unix-like layer to please the unix-weenies. Martin Richards provides a current implementation of the Tripos environment that runs as an interpreted guest (under Linux or whatever). It is called "Cintpos" and is available at: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mr10/Cintpos.html Cintpos is implemented in BCPL: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mr10/BCPL.html These and other interesting artifacts are at Dr Richards' home page at Cambridge: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mr10/ Dave |
In reply to this post by Brad Fuller-2
On 13-Oct-07, at 10:18 PM, Brad Fuller wrote: > > I checked chumby out when you mentioned it - I had never heard of it. > Yeah, it seems to be a cool little thing and I could see something > like displaying weather stats from Dan's weather gizmo. It could be > nice to show other local home stats (cameras, security stats, > status of the lights, electrical usage, etc.) instead of using a > more expensive computer. I was thinking of a printer server with ability to let you cancel/ suspend/change/etc jobs while at the printer instead of having to go back to the main machine. Or the music aspect of an Apple Airport Express - wifi the sound to chumby, hook in usb speakers. Or even eviscerate one, wire up a larger screen (800*600 max, perhaps a http://store.earthlcd.com/EDMGRB8KJF?sc=7&category=256 or similar ) hookup a big li-poly battery and make an Active Book :-) > You could have several around the house. (kinda like us old people > who buy the cheap drug store reading glasses and sprinkle them > around the house for times when we need them.) > > > tim -- tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Objects are closer than they appear. |
In reply to this post by Brad Fuller-2
Likewise, thanks Tim, an interesting read.
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In reply to this post by NorbertHartl
I'm catching up with a few weeks of pending email, so apologies in
advance if anyone else has already done a better job of this... On Oct 13, 2007, at 3:22 AM, Norbert Hartl wrote: > anyone tried to put a squeak vm on an iRex iLiad > or knows anything about it? Here's just enough to get a mini image up and running: http://piumarta.com/tmp/squeak-iliad.tar.gz Unpack the archive onto a USB drive, stick it in the top of your ereader, navigate to it and then tap the icon. The image size is (severely) limited by the amount of physical memory available (although I didn't try very hard to activate swap). Interaction is painful, with screen refresh being erratic and intermittent. The hacks that went in to support 8-bit StaticGrey are too ugly to enumerate, but it should stay up long enough to convince you that the iLiad, at least in its current form, is heavily optimised for static content. BTW: I think you might have to have enabled 'hacker mode' (by installing the 'unbrickable' package) on your iLiad before it'll let you run the above. I've never tried it on a 'virgin' machine, so I don't know. It might work out of the box. Provided as-is; install/run it at your own risk. Cheers, Ian |
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