status of the 'mvc' environment?
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Re: status of the 'mvc' environment?
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Woot! I can't answer your question, but I do have a strong interest in being able to unload the Morphic environment. In something like a web server, Morphic just wastes a lot of CPU cycles, and MVC is much less expensive (as we've seen on lower end machines like the Raspberry Pi,) so it would be fantastic to elevate it to its former glory as a complete solution to the user interface of applications which do not require the flexibility of the Morphic environment, like the system browser. Unfortunately, while I have plenty of experience with the MVC "pattern," I have only really just sat in awe of how fast Squeak runs inside an MVC project. Having someone around who's returning after 14 years of wandering might be just what I need to make myself useful in this regard. I know that David Lewis is also interested in seeing the MVC system a viable option for development again (IIRC he fixed some serious problems with the debugger,) and I imagine that at least some of the Seaside folks would love to drop the overhead of Morphic from their servers. I'm moving this conversation to squeak-dev, as it's more about remodelling and redecorating a part of the core of Squeak and less about using it in general. If you aren't subscribed there, you should be, or you'll end up in the moderator's queue, which can take a (relatively) longish time to turn around. If the community doesn't take the bait, feel free to contact me offline. Maybe there's a common point of interest and we can team up. --Casey Ransberger On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 8:39 PM, Mayuresh Kathe <[hidden email]> wrote: hello, _______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners |
Re: status of the 'mvc' environment?
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Mayuresh,
There is a thread in the mail archive Subject: All MVC image Date: Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 5:02 PM It mentions an MVC image done by Sungjin Chun which the late Andreas Raab considered very fine. The MVC implementation in the current squeak still has problems. So if you are interested in MVC I suggest that you go for an earlier version. (Or you try Cuis which is Morphic only -- reworked by Juan Vuletich -- but is fast https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/Cuis-Smalltalk-Dev -- only 600 classes in the image) --Hannes On 9/6/14, Casey Ransberger <[hidden email]> wrote: > Woot! I can't answer your question, but I do have a strong interest in > being able to unload the Morphic environment. In something like a web > server, Morphic just wastes a lot of CPU cycles, and MVC is much less > expensive (as we've seen on lower end machines like the Raspberry Pi,) so > it would be fantastic to elevate it to its former glory as a complete > solution to the user interface of applications which do not require the > flexibility of the Morphic environment, like the system browser. > > Unfortunately, while I have plenty of experience with the MVC "pattern," I > have only really just sat in awe of how fast Squeak runs inside an MVC > project. Having someone around who's returning after 14 years of wandering > might be just what I need to make myself useful in this regard. I know that > David Lewis is also interested in seeing the MVC system a viable option for > development again (IIRC he fixed some serious problems with the debugger,) > and I imagine that at least some of the Seaside folks would love to drop > the overhead of Morphic from their servers. > > I'm moving this conversation to squeak-dev, as it's more about remodelling > and redecorating a part of the core of Squeak and less about using it in > general. If you aren't subscribed there, you should be, or you'll end up in > the moderator's queue, which can take a (relatively) longish time to turn > around. > > If the community doesn't take the bait, feel free to contact me offline. > Maybe there's a common point of interest and we can team up. > > --Casey Ransberger > > > On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 8:39 PM, Mayuresh Kathe <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> hello, >> >> i am returning to squeak after a gap of 14 years. >> back then, i used to work only within the 'mvc' environment as morphic >> hadn't taken off the way it has now. >> >> i still prefer the simplicity and lightness of the 'mvc' environment. >> >> at last use, the 'mvc' environment felt quite sluggish and crashed my >> squeak session multiple times. >> hope all is well! >> >> ~mayuresh >> >> ps: if boris gaertner is still around, could he please mail me off-list! >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Beginners mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners >> > Beginners mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners |
Re: status of the 'mvc' environment?
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I'm pretty big Cuis fan as well, and if what you really want is an image which runs pretty darned fast above a Squeak VM on lower end hardware, it's definitely worth a look. No MVC available on the system yet, unfortunately; it's a thing I want to do, but finding time is hard, etc. Need to make it work right on Squeak first, and gather a good set of tests before attempting to port. We're inching closer to to replacing the current Morphic implementation with something that uses vector graphics (Morphic 3) though, so the topic of unloading the current Morphic implementation (which is very different from those available in other Squeak variants) is currently quite relevant to the folks on the Cuis list, and I do see some overlap here with concerns in the broader Squeak community around Morphic being adjoined to the current system more or less at the hip. If you have any questions about Cuis specifically, the best place to ask is below, although most (if not all) of us read squeak-dev too: On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 9:40 PM, H. Hirzel <[hidden email]> wrote: Mayuresh, _______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners |
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In reply to this post by Casey Ransberger-2
Casey Ransberger wrote:
Maybe this progress is of interest... http://pharoweekly.wordpress.com/tag/bootstrap-image-reloading-morphic/ Its not MVC on its own, but it might provide a good basis for MVC without Morphic. cheers -ben
_______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners |
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In reply to this post by Hannes Hirzel
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RE: status of the 'mvc' environment?
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> hirzel, thanks for the note.
> > btw, what do you mean by _late_ andreas raab? has he passed away or > something? > hope that's not true. Very sad. Yes it is true he passed away early last year. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Raab Ron > > i will be going for an earlier version, thanks for reminding me about that > approach. > > ~mayuresh > > > On 2014-09-06 10:10, H. Hirzel wrote: > > Mayuresh, > > > > There is a thread in the mail archive > > > > Subject: All MVC image > > Date: Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 5:02 PM > > > > It mentions an MVC image done by Sungjin Chun which the late Andreas > > Raab considered very fine. > > > > The MVC implementation in the current squeak still has problems. > > > > So if you are interested in MVC I suggest that you go for an earlier > > version. > > > > (Or you try Cuis which is Morphic only -- reworked by Juan Vuletich -- > > but is fast https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/Cuis-Smalltalk-Dev -- > > only 600 classes in the image) > > > > > > --Hannes > > > > > > > > On 9/6/14, Casey Ransberger <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> Woot! I can't answer your question, but I do have a strong interest > >> in being able to unload the Morphic environment. In something like a > >> web server, Morphic just wastes a lot of CPU cycles, and MVC is much > >> less expensive (as we've seen on lower end machines like the > >> Raspberry Pi,) so it would be fantastic to elevate it to its former > >> glory as a complete solution to the user interface of applications > >> which do not require the flexibility of the Morphic environment, like > >> the system browser. > >> > >> Unfortunately, while I have plenty of experience with the MVC > >> "pattern," I have only really just sat in awe of how fast Squeak runs > >> inside an MVC project. Having someone around who's returning after 14 > >> years of wandering might be just what I need to make myself useful in > >> this regard. I know that David Lewis is also interested in seeing the > >> MVC system a viable option for development again (IIRC he fixed some > >> serious problems with the > >> debugger,) > >> and I imagine that at least some of the Seaside folks would love to > >> drop the overhead of Morphic from their servers. > >> > >> I'm moving this conversation to squeak-dev, as it's more about > >> remodelling and redecorating a part of the core of Squeak and less > >> about using it in general. If you aren't subscribed there, you should > >> be, or you'll end up in the moderator's queue, which can take a > >> (relatively) longish time to turn around. > >> > >> If the community doesn't take the bait, feel free to contact me > >> offline. > >> Maybe there's a common point of interest and we can team up. > >> > >> --Casey Ransberger > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 8:39 PM, Mayuresh Kathe <[hidden email]> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> hello, > >>> > >>> i am returning to squeak after a gap of 14 years. > >>> back then, i used to work only within the 'mvc' environment as > >>> morphic hadn't taken off the way it has now. > >>> > >>> i still prefer the simplicity and lightness of the 'mvc' environment. > >>> > >>> at last use, the 'mvc' environment felt quite sluggish and crashed > >>> my squeak session multiple times. > >>> hope all is well! > >>> > >>> ~mayuresh > >>> > >>> ps: if boris gaertner is still around, could he please mail me > >>> off-list! > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Beginners mailing list > >>> [hidden email] > >>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners > >>> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Beginners mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners > _______________________________________________ > Beginners mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners _______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners |
Re: status of the 'mvc' environment?
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In reply to this post by mayuresh
On Sat, Sep 06, 2014 at 09:09:29AM +0530, Mayuresh Kathe wrote:
> hello, > > i am returning to squeak after a gap of 14 years. > back then, i used to work only within the 'mvc' environment as morphic > hadn't taken off the way it has now. > > i still prefer the simplicity and lightness of the 'mvc' environment. > > at last use, the 'mvc' environment felt quite sluggish and crashed my > squeak session multiple times. > hope all is well! > > ~mayuresh MVC worked well in Squeak up through version 3.8 of Squeak. In Squeak 3.9 it was broken, and it was not restored to a usable state until recently. In a current Squeak image (version 4.5 or later) MVC should work well, although you will still find some problems. It should not be sluggish, and it definitely should not crash your squeak session. I would suggest trying a recent Squeak image to see if it works well enough for you. Otherwise, the Squeak 3.8 image is very good, and the small MVC image that Hannes mentioned is excellent if your interest is in MVC itself. To enter MVC in Squeak from the toolbar on the top: Projects -> New Project -> New MVCProject >From the world menu: World -> open -> mvc project If you do decide to use an up to date Squeak image, any fixes or contributions that you can make to MVC will be very welcome on the squeak-dev mailing list. Welcome back :-) Dave _______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners |
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Re: status of the 'mvc' environment?
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On Sat, Sep 06, 2014 at 07:43:04PM +0530, Mayuresh Kathe wrote:
> On 2014-09-06 17:56, David T. Lewis wrote: > >On Sat, Sep 06, 2014 at 09:09:29AM +0530, Mayuresh Kathe wrote: > >>hello, > >> > >>i am returning to squeak after a gap of 14 years. > >>back then, i used to work only within the 'mvc' environment as morphic > >>hadn't taken off the way it has now. > >> > >>i still prefer the simplicity and lightness of the 'mvc' environment. > >> > >>at last use, the 'mvc' environment felt quite sluggish and crashed my > >>squeak session multiple times. > >>hope all is well! > >> > >>~mayuresh > > > >MVC worked well in Squeak up through version 3.8 of Squeak. In Squeak > >3.9 > >it was broken, and it was not restored to a usable state until > >recently. > > > >In a current Squeak image (version 4.5 or later) MVC should work well, > >although you will still find some problems. It should not be sluggish, > >and > >it definitely should not crash your squeak session. > > > >I would suggest trying a recent Squeak image to see if it works well > >enough > >for you. Otherwise, the Squeak 3.8 image is very good, and the small > >MVC > >image that Hannes mentioned is excellent if your interest is in MVC > >itself. > > > >To enter MVC in Squeak from the toolbar on the top: > > Projects -> New Project -> New MVCProject > > > >From the world menu: > > World -> open -> mvc project > > > >If you do decide to use an up to date Squeak image, any fixes or > >contributions > >that you can make to MVC will be very welcome on the squeak-dev mailing > >list. > > > >Welcome back :-) > > thanks for the warm welcome. :) > > i last tried squeak on ubuntu 13.10 which packages 3.9, so i guess > that's where the problem is. Yes, that's the problem. Squeak 3.9 was totally broken for MVC. Things are much better now. > about the 'mvc' image thing, long back, there used to be a way to shrink > an image leaving in only 'mvc', does it still exist? > It probably does not exist right now. One of the overall goals in Squeak is to make packages reloadable. That means making it possible to completely remove something (like Morphic), then reload it, and still have a working system. Currently this can be done for MVC, but we have not yet done the work to make it possible for Morphic. Dave _______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners |
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