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[croquet-dev] Re: Croquet vs. Secondlife regarding future development (some thoughts to share...)

Posted by Kyle Hamilton on Feb 05, 2007; 9:45pm
URL: https://forum.world.st/Re-Croquet-vs-Secondlife-regarding-future-development-some-thoughts-to-share-tp125565p125576.html

I've a couple of thoughts on this.

1) There are some very useful things which can be learned from Second Life.
2) There are some very useful things which can be learned from Croquet.

One of the most difficult things in Croquet (as far as I've been able
to figure out) is server-based computations.  Every computation is, as
far as I can tell, done on multiple systems simultaneously.

One of the most difficult things in Second Life is client-based
computations.  I.e., there aren't any.

One of the good things about Second Life is the idea of a controlled
amount of cash in the economy.  There is a central "bank", which keeps
track of the amount of money in circulation and controls it in order
to ensure that inflation doesn't run rampant.

One possible way to extend Second Life is via the libsecondlife
project, which implements a proxy for the protocol.  If a Croquet
plugin could be devised for it, it would allow the Second Life viewer
to interact with Croquet spaces, and possibly vice-versa.

There are MANY limitations to Second Life's technology, just as there
are many limitations in Croquet's technology.  The need to attach
primitives to your body to make it appear different -- that's not
appropriate, in my view, though I don't know how easy it would be to
allow different model meshes and animate them appropriately.  But the
larger the number of primitives which must be dealt with, the more
slowly the process of dealing with the primitives occurs, which causes
cpu-bound lag.  Currently, SL handles the lag of avatar animation by
offloading the .bvh animation handling to the client.  It must process
primitives on the server, though, which is why high-prim avatars lag
sims so much.

Any thoughts?

-Kyle H

On 2/2/07, Kelly Rued <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > im
> > > still dreaming of parallel metaverses interconnected via portals or
> > > teleport. Where SL takes its role maybe as sotial life platform,
> > > other virtual universes e.g. based upon Croquet or others show up as
> they are needed. That sounds like a vision!
> > >
> > > Finally i dislike the idea to be member of an SL-group that thinks
> > > about how to avoid SL. Isn't that a bit unfair? so we could meet without
> placing a group.
> > > maybe eventually that makes sense. But not before it becomes clear whats
> up...
>
> FWIW, I agree that the "big dream" of the metaverse is actually a web of
> platforms with sensible, fluid portals between them so that content is
> interconnected in useful ways. I doubt it is a matter of inventing one uber
> platform to rule them all. Despite the many obvious flaws in Second Life,
> Linden Lab has accomplished many great things with the Second Life platform
> and their virtual world is currently at the frontlines of turning virtual
> spaces into usable,practical everyday tools for people who aren't developers
> or academics. The P2P architecture of Croquet makes it supremely attractive
> to me as a developer and I would cite SL's direction toward open clients and
> open servers as a stop-gap sort of solution to what needs to be genuinely
> p2p to support the "big dream" that many people have for the multiverse.
>
> So I'm not looking to avoid Second Life (I own a big chunk of mainland but
> have no plans for an island until they open that up too and I can just set
> it up on my servers). I just hope to bridge my SL-based content to other
> platforms, especially something p2p like Croquet, so that I can inch closer
> to the kinds of entertainment applications I want to be designing and
> deploying.
>
> Our SL group should acknowledge SL's leadership in this metaverse space but
> should seek to extend beyond the boundaries inherent with SL. Some things
> that Croquet may do better than SL:
>
> -p2p world management decentralizes power, resources, and opportunities
> better than any model that requires expensive remote servers (even if the
> servers become/are "open source")
>
> -higher quality avatar art and the ability to import 3D assets from
> professional tools, more control over art import/export in general
>
> -privacy: no central organization owns your chat logs
>
> -access: totally free sdk (no need to sign up or create an account with a
> controlling organization), no central TOS that can ban your account from the
> entire metaverse system for any reason/no reason at all
>
> -distributed ownership of users: each publisher of a world could easily
> require a sign up or verification per application just as most users have to
> create an account per web application rather than one big account for "the
> internet" where none of the individual sites had access to the account info
> held at "the internet db of users" which is the current system for
> applications developed within SL (also for commercial apps "owning the
> customer data" is very important so that you can do many important things,
> such as ensuring due diligence in age verification or dealing effectively
> with griefers)
>
> -liberation from corporate whims: companies decide to break things or drop
> backwards-compatibility goals whenever they feel like it. SL is obviously
> not the only platform (or even the most notable) to do this but considering
> that most SL developers are not making anything close to a profit from their
> SL development... It's a ridiculous financial burden to have to fix things
> when you were developing at a loss to begin with. Hopefully Croquet *in
> future versions* will always maintain reasonable measures to run legacy
> croquet code and to give advance warning/notice when something is going to
> be depracated rather than having developers login and find a bunch of Ims
> from customers saying "x doesn't work anymore" and having to drop everything
> to rush in a fix. In general I hope that Croquet's birth as this open
> developer-centric platform means that external devs are treated well and not
> just as disposable value-adders for the central Croquet software.
>
> Heh, you can tell from my final item that I think the main flaw with SL is
> actually not one of architecture but of business policy. The developers and
> content creators who make SL viable for end users are treated very shoddily
> by SL decision-makers, imo (SL shipped as a fancy chat room, and what little
> Linden content there is, it's not nearly as engaging as the user content).
> Croquet is truly based on open development practices and I've been able to
> watch a community working on the software, just as I have with other open
> projects I follow like TikiWiki. That is the main reason why I think
> developers should be looking at bridging SL to Croquet because Croquet might
> give developers more opportunities to extend the platform and profit from
> their contributions (by profit, I mean "pay people for their time so they
> can make more stuff" because SL is a charity case for devs right now). And
> for players, obviously they are going to benefit from a p2p world where they
> can create their own island instead of paying insane set up fees and a
> monthly rent that rivals most family's utility and grocery bills. It will
> also be nice to have builds limited only by PC resources than arbitrarily
> limited by "prim count" tied to blocks of virtual real estate. ;)
>
> -Kelly
>
>
>


--

-Kyle H