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[update 1.2] #12297

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Stéphane Ducasse

[update 1.2] #12297

12297
-----

- Issue 3525: Compiler>>parserClass is broken and does not querying the class for providing the parser class. Thanks Igor Stasenko.

- Glamourous setting as default.

Sven Van Caekenberghe

Re: [update 1.2] #12297

On 12 Jan 2011, at 16:30, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

> - Glamourous setting as default.

Yes! Maybe a bit dull, but clean and professional, my favorite!

Sven

Mariano Martinez Peck

Re: [update 1.2] #12297

On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 12 Jan 2011, at 16:30, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

> - Glamourous setting as default.

Yes! Maybe a bit dull, but clean and professional, my favorite!

But it is not about that.
As torsten said, there are books, screencasts, screnshots, tutorials, etc, which are done with Watery2.
you, and all Pharo advanced users can easily change the theme, and you probbaly even have a script prepare that you run in each clean image to adapt it to your taste.
But I think we should make the life easier for new comers.
In addition, it was never discussed in the mailing list such change (at least I didn't see it).

cheers

mariano

laurent laffont

Re: [update 1.2] #12297

On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 12 Jan 2011, at 16:30, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

> - Glamourous setting as default.

Yes! Maybe a bit dull, but clean and professional, my favorite!

But it is not about that.
As torsten said, there are books, screencasts, screnshots, tutorials, etc, which are done with Watery2.

I agree with that and keeping Watery2 as default for 1.2 (even if I prefer Glamourous).

Laurent

you, and all Pharo advanced users can easily change the theme, and you probbaly even have a script prepare that you run in each clean image to adapt it to your taste.
But I think we should make the life easier for new comers.
In addition, it was never discussed in the mailing list such change (at least I didn't see it).

cheers

mariano

Igor Stasenko

Re: [update 1.2] #12297

In reply to this post by Mariano Martinez Peck

On 12 January 2011 16:56, Mariano Martinez Peck <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> On 12 Jan 2011, at 16:30, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
>>
>> > - Glamourous setting as default.
>>
>> Yes! Maybe a bit dull, but clean and professional, my favorite!
>>
>
> But it is not about that.
> As torsten said, there are books, screencasts, screnshots, tutorials, etc,
> which are done with Watery2.

so , you're an addict! :)

Ubuntu changes its skin every single release.. and i am pretty sure
that there are
books, screencasts, screnshots, tutorials, etc for Ubuntu as well.

(btw i think they established really good tradition, because people
could quickly distinguish one version from another
by simply taking a glance on the screen)

Get used to live in ever changing world :)

> you, and all Pharo advanced users can easily change the theme, and you
> probbaly even have a script prepare that you run in each clean image to
> adapt it to your taste.

UIThemeWatery2 beCurrent.

be my guest :) http://bit.ly/gi7vb7

> But I think we should make the life easier for new comers.
> In addition, it was never discussed in the mailing list such change (at
> least I didn't see it).
>

i agree, it is better to discuss broadly before changing.

I like the glamourous theme because it is minimalistic and elegant.
Still the colors are a bit wrong as to my taste, especially selection
(light blue).

> cheers
>
> mariano
>

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Sven Van Caekenberghe

Re: [update 1.2] #12297

On 12 Jan 2011, at 22:12, Igor Stasenko wrote:

> Ubuntu changes its skin every single release.. and i am pretty sure
> that there are
> books, screencasts, screnshots, tutorials, etc for Ubuntu as well.
>
> (btw i think they established really good tradition, because people
> could quickly distinguish one version from another
> by simply taking a glance on the screen)

Good point: new look == new version

The compatibility point is also good.

The OS independence point is also good.

> Get used to live in ever changing world :)
>
>> you, and all Pharo advanced users can easily change the theme, and you
>> probbaly even have a script prepare that you run in each clean image to
>> adapt it to your taste.
>
> UIThemeWatery2 beCurrent.
>
> be my guest :) http://bit.ly/gi7vb7
>
>
>> But I think we should make the life easier for new comers.
>> In addition, it was never discussed in the mailing list such change (at
>> least I didn't see it).
>>
>
> i agree, it is better to discuss broadly before changing.
>
> I like the glamourous theme because it is minimalistic and elegant.
> Still the colors are a bit wrong as to my taste, especially selection
> (light blue).

I made my own subclass overriding 3 color constants to orange.
'Sven-Glamour-Theme' @ SqueakSource project ADayAtTheBeach.

Sven

Igor Stasenko

Re: [update 1.2] #12297

On 12 January 2011 23:17, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 12 Jan 2011, at 22:12, Igor Stasenko wrote:
>
>> Ubuntu changes its skin every single release.. and i am pretty sure
>> that there are
>> books, screencasts, screnshots, tutorials, etc for Ubuntu as well.
>>
>> (btw i think they established really good tradition, because people
>> could quickly distinguish one version from another
>> by simply taking a glance on the screen)
>
> Good point: new look == new version
>
> The compatibility point is also good.
>
> The OS independence point is also good.
>
>> Get used to live in ever changing world :)
>>
>>> you, and all Pharo advanced users can easily change the theme, and you
>>> probbaly even have a script prepare that you run in each clean image to
>>> adapt it to your taste.
>>
>> UIThemeWatery2 beCurrent.
>>
>> be my guest :) http://bit.ly/gi7vb7
>>
>>
>>> But I think we should make the life easier for new comers.
>>> In addition, it was never discussed in the mailing list such change (at
>>> least I didn't see it).
>>>
>>
>> i agree, it is better to discuss broadly before changing.
>>
>> I like the glamourous theme because it is minimalistic and elegant.
>> Still the colors are a bit wrong as to my taste, especially selection
>> (light blue).
>
> I made my own subclass overriding 3 color constants to orange.
> 'Sven-Glamour-Theme' @ SqueakSource project ADayAtTheBeach.
>

Kewl.. Orange is much much better.

I modified it a little. Check it out

> Sven
>
>

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

GLMUITheme2.st (4K) Download Attachment

Stéphane Ducasse

Re: [update 1.2] #12297

indeed igor this is nice.
Doru may be you could take this change for your look?

Stef

On Jan 13, 2011, at 1:26 AM, Igor Stasenko wrote:

> On 12 January 2011 23:17, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 12 Jan 2011, at 22:12, Igor Stasenko wrote:
>>
>>> Ubuntu changes its skin every single release.. and i am pretty sure
>>> that there are
>>> books, screencasts, screnshots, tutorials, etc for Ubuntu as well.
>>>
>>> (btw i think they established really good tradition, because people
>>> could quickly distinguish one version from another
>>> by simply taking a glance on the screen)
>>
>> Good point: new look == new version
>>
>> The compatibility point is also good.
>>
>> The OS independence point is also good.
>>
>>> Get used to live in ever changing world :)
>>>
>>>> you, and all Pharo advanced users can easily change the theme, and you
>>>> probbaly even have a script prepare that you run in each clean image to
>>>> adapt it to your taste.
>>>
>>> UIThemeWatery2 beCurrent.
>>>
>>> be my guest :) http://bit.ly/gi7vb7
>>>
>>>
>>>> But I think we should make the life easier for new comers.
>>>> In addition, it was never discussed in the mailing list such change (at
>>>> least I didn't see it).
>>>>
>>>
>>> i agree, it is better to discuss broadly before changing.
>>>
>>> I like the glamourous theme because it is minimalistic and elegant.
>>> Still the colors are a bit wrong as to my taste, especially selection
>>> (light blue).
>>
>> I made my own subclass overriding 3 color constants to orange.
>> 'Sven-Glamour-Theme' @ SqueakSource project ADayAtTheBeach.
>>
>
> Kewl.. Orange is much much better.
>
> I modified it a little. Check it out
>
>> Sven
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
> <GLMUITheme2.st>

Sven Van Caekenberghe

Re: [update 1.2] #12297

In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko

On 13 Jan 2011, at 01:26, Igor Stasenko wrote:

> Kewl.. Orange is much much better.
>
> I modified it a little. Check it out

The 'underline' for selected buttons is very nice.
I don't see much (or any) difference in the orange.

Although I don't really like the blue (it is a bit soft),
it matches better with the Pharo logo (and we won't be changing that I think).

Sven

Tudor Girba

Re: [update 1.2] #12297

In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse

Hi,

Thanks for the suggestion. However, I won't include it because it just does not fit the purpose of the original theme which is to be simple and non-intrusive (actually, there are still things left to remove but I did not get around to do it).

Cheers,
Doru

On 13 Jan 2011, at 09:19, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

> indeed igor this is nice.
> Doru may be you could take this change for your look?
>
> Stef
>
> On Jan 13, 2011, at 1:26 AM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
>
>> On 12 January 2011 23:17, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 12 Jan 2011, at 22:12, Igor Stasenko wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ubuntu changes its skin every single release.. and i am pretty sure
>>>> that there are
>>>> books, screencasts, screnshots, tutorials, etc for Ubuntu as well.
>>>>
>>>> (btw i think they established really good tradition, because people
>>>> could quickly distinguish one version from another
>>>> by simply taking a glance on the screen)
>>>
>>> Good point: new look == new version
>>>
>>> The compatibility point is also good.
>>>
>>> The OS independence point is also good.
>>>
>>>> Get used to live in ever changing world :)
>>>>
>>>>> you, and all Pharo advanced users can easily change the theme, and you
>>>>> probbaly even have a script prepare that you run in each clean image to
>>>>> adapt it to your taste.
>>>>
>>>> UIThemeWatery2 beCurrent.
>>>>
>>>> be my guest :) http://bit.ly/gi7vb7
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> But I think we should make the life easier for new comers.
>>>>> In addition, it was never discussed in the mailing list such change (at
>>>>> least I didn't see it).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> i agree, it is better to discuss broadly before changing.
>>>>
>>>> I like the glamourous theme because it is minimalistic and elegant.
>>>> Still the colors are a bit wrong as to my taste, especially selection
>>>> (light blue).
>>>
>>> I made my own subclass overriding 3 color constants to orange.
>>> 'Sven-Glamour-Theme' @ SqueakSource project ADayAtTheBeach.
>>>
>>
>> Kewl.. Orange is much much better.
>>
>> I modified it a little. Check it out
>>
>>> Sven
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
>> <GLMUITheme2.st>
>
>

--
www.tudorgirba.com

"Next time you see your life passing by, say 'hi' and get to know her."

Mariano Martinez Peck

Re: [update 1.2] #12297

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 10:23 AM, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

Thanks for the suggestion. However, I won't include it because it just does not fit the purpose of the original theme which is to be simple and non-intrusive (actually, there are still things left to remove but I did not get around to do it).

I don't get it. I guess the theme is MIT and this is why it is included in PharoCore. What did you mean by "I won't include it" ? where?

Cheers,
Doru

On 13 Jan 2011, at 09:19, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

> indeed igor this is nice.
> Doru may be you could take this change for your look?
>
> Stef
>
> On Jan 13, 2011, at 1:26 AM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
>
>> On 12 January 2011 23:17, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 12 Jan 2011, at 22:12, Igor Stasenko wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ubuntu changes its skin every single release.. and i am pretty sure
>>>> that there are
>>>> books, screencasts, screnshots, tutorials, etc for Ubuntu as well.
>>>>
>>>> (btw i think they established really good tradition, because people
>>>> could quickly distinguish one version from another
>>>> by simply taking a glance on the screen)
>>>
>>> Good point: new look == new version
>>>
>>> The compatibility point is also good.
>>>
>>> The OS independence point is also good.
>>>
>>>> Get used to live in ever changing world :)
>>>>
>>>>> you, and all Pharo advanced users can easily change the theme, and you
>>>>> probbaly even have a script prepare that you run in each clean image to
>>>>> adapt it to your taste.
>>>>
>>>> UIThemeWatery2 beCurrent.
>>>>
>>>> be my guest :) http://bit.ly/gi7vb7
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> But I think we should make the life easier for new comers.
>>>>> In addition, it was never discussed in the mailing list such change (at
>>>>> least I didn't see it).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> i agree, it is better to discuss broadly before changing.
>>>>
>>>> I like the glamourous theme because it is minimalistic and elegant.
>>>> Still the colors are a bit wrong as to my taste, especially selection
>>>> (light blue).
>>>
>>> I made my own subclass overriding 3 color constants to orange.
>>> 'Sven-Glamour-Theme' @ SqueakSource project ADayAtTheBeach.
>>>
>>
>> Kewl.. Orange is much much better.
>>
>> I modified it a little. Check it out
>>
>>> Sven
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
>> <GLMUITheme2.st>
>
>

--
www.tudorgirba.com

"Next time you see your life passing by, say 'hi' and get to know her."

Tudor Girba

Re: [update 1.2] #12297

Of course, it is MIT and you can do what you want with it. I simply answered the question from Stef, and I meant that I won't include it in the code from the Glamour repository. If you do want to modify it in the mentioned direction, I would kindly ask you to use a different name to avoid confusion and conflicts - this theme is used by the Moose distribution.

Cheers,
Doru

On 13 Jan 2011, at 10:32, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 10:23 AM, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Thanks for the suggestion. However, I won't include it because it just does not fit the purpose of the original theme which is to be simple and non-intrusive (actually, there are still things left to remove but I did not get around to do it).
>
>
> I don't get it. I guess the theme is MIT and this is why it is included in PharoCore. What did you mean by "I won't include it" ? where?
>
> Cheers,
> Doru
>
>
> On 13 Jan 2011, at 09:19, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
>
> > indeed igor this is nice.
> > Doru may be you could take this change for your look?
> >
> > Stef
> >
> > On Jan 13, 2011, at 1:26 AM, Igor Stasenko wrote:
> >
> >> On 12 January 2011 23:17, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On 12 Jan 2011, at 22:12, Igor Stasenko wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Ubuntu changes its skin every single release.. and i am pretty sure
> >>>> that there are
> >>>> books, screencasts, screnshots, tutorials, etc for Ubuntu as well.
> >>>>
> >>>> (btw i think they established really good tradition, because people
> >>>> could quickly distinguish one version from another
> >>>> by simply taking a glance on the screen)
> >>>
> >>> Good point: new look == new version
> >>>
> >>> The compatibility point is also good.
> >>>
> >>> The OS independence point is also good.
> >>>
> >>>> Get used to live in ever changing world :)
> >>>>
> >>>>> you, and all Pharo advanced users can easily change the theme, and you
> >>>>> probbaly even have a script prepare that you run in each clean image to
> >>>>> adapt it to your taste.
> >>>>
> >>>> UIThemeWatery2 beCurrent.
> >>>>
> >>>> be my guest :) http://bit.ly/gi7vb7
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> But I think we should make the life easier for new comers.
> >>>>> In addition, it was never discussed in the mailing list such change (at
> >>>>> least I didn't see it).
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> i agree, it is better to discuss broadly before changing.
> >>>>
> >>>> I like the glamourous theme because it is minimalistic and elegant.
> >>>> Still the colors are a bit wrong as to my taste, especially selection
> >>>> (light blue).
> >>>
> >>> I made my own subclass overriding 3 color constants to orange.
> >>> 'Sven-Glamour-Theme' @ SqueakSource project ADayAtTheBeach.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Kewl.. Orange is much much better.
> >>
> >> I modified it a little. Check it out
> >>
> >>> Sven
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Best regards,
> >> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
> >> <GLMUITheme2.st>
> >
> >
>
> --
> www.tudorgirba.com
>
> "Next time you see your life passing by, say 'hi' and get to know her."
>
>
>
>
>

--
www.tudorgirba.com

"In a world where everything is moving ever faster,
one might have better chances to win by moving slower."

Sven Van Caekenberghe

Re: [update 1.2] #12297

In reply to this post by Tudor Girba

On 13 Jan 2011, at 10:23, Tudor Girba wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Thanks for the suggestion. However, I won't include it because it just does not fit the purpose of the original theme which is to be simple and non-intrusive (actually, there are still things left to remove but I did not get around to do it).
>
> Cheers,
> Doru

Making the theme even smaller/simpler would be great.

I (and Igor) just made subclasses to customize Glamorous.

On the other hand, the modifications add close to nothing, most are overrides.

But again, this is a taste thing, you have every right not to like them.

I respect the effort you put into this and would consider it a great loss to fork this over such small details.

Sven

Igor Stasenko

Re: [update 1.2] #12297

In reply to this post by Tudor Girba

On 13 January 2011 10:41, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Of course, it is MIT and you can do what you want with it. I simply answered the question from Stef, and I meant that I won't include it in the code from the Glamour repository. If you do want to modify it in the mentioned direction, I would kindly ask you to use a different name to avoid confusion and conflicts - this theme is used by the Moose distribution.
>

Can you clarify:
a) you don't want to modify Glamorous theme (GLMUITheme) by taking
all methods from GLMUITheme2.
b) you don't want to add a GLMUITheme2 , which is a subclass of GLMUITheme

because these changes could live in GLMUITheme2, which is perfectly
fine, while keeping an original GLMUITheme
not changed.
And we can call GLMUITheme2 a 'Glamorous orange'
:)

> Cheers,
> Doru
>
>

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Tudor Girba

Re: [update 1.2] #12297

Hi,

On 13 Jan 2011, at 11:12, Igor Stasenko wrote:

> On 13 January 2011 10:41, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Of course, it is MIT and you can do what you want with it. I simply answered the question from Stef, and I meant that I won't include it in the code from the Glamour repository. If you do want to modify it in the mentioned direction, I would kindly ask you to use a different name to avoid confusion and conflicts - this theme is used by the Moose distribution.
>>
>
> Can you clarify:
> a) you don't want to modify Glamorous theme (GLMUITheme) by taking
> all methods from GLMUITheme2.

Yes

> b) you don't want to add a GLMUITheme2 , which is a subclass of GLMUITheme
> because these changes could live in GLMUITheme2, which is perfectly
> fine, while keeping an original GLMUITheme
> not changed.
> And we can call GLMUITheme2 a 'Glamorous orange'
> :)

Yes :). It's true that technically it would work, but from an intention point of view it does not fit. Also, in general, except on very few occasions, I won't support adding anything that has a number at the end to distinguish the name :).

Cheers,
Doru

--
www.tudorgirba.com

"The coherence of a trip is given by the clearness of the goal."

Igor Stasenko

Re: [update 1.2] #12297

On 13 January 2011 11:29, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 13 Jan 2011, at 11:12, Igor Stasenko wrote:
>
>> On 13 January 2011 10:41, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Of course, it is MIT and you can do what you want with it. I simply answered the question from Stef, and I meant that I won't include it in the code from the Glamour repository. If you do want to modify it in the mentioned direction, I would kindly ask you to use a different name to avoid confusion and conflicts - this theme is used by the Moose distribution.
>>>
>>
>> Can you clarify:
>> a) you don't want to modify Glamorous theme (GLMUITheme) by taking
>> all methods from GLMUITheme2.
>
> Yes
>
>> b) you don't want to add a GLMUITheme2 , which is a subclass of GLMUITheme
>> because these changes could live in GLMUITheme2, which is perfectly
>> fine, while keeping an original GLMUITheme
>> not changed.
>> And we can call GLMUITheme2 a 'Glamorous orange'
>> :)
>
> Yes :). It's true that technically it would work, but from an intention point of view it does not fit. Also, in general, except on very few occasions, I won't support adding anything that has a number at the end to distinguish the name :).
>

Not a big deal..
We can rename it to
GLMOrangeUITheme

and make available to Pharo people?
Still no? :)

> Cheers,
> Doru
>
> --
> www.tudorgirba.com
>
> "The coherence of a trip is given by the clearness of the goal."
>

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Tudor Girba

Re: [update 1.2] #12297

I tried to avoid a lengthy mail, but now I need to explain.

UI design should be approached with the same rigor as system design. A community is better than an individual in producing solutions, but only when the effort is in concert under a shared vision. If the arguments are just about "I like this better", the process transforms into a design by committee which usually leads to poor results. So, let me share my "vision".

The first thing that design should address is functionality (although visual appeal has a significant weight, too). In general, when you want to design something you should ask yourself why do you need to do that.

The intention of the Glamour-Morphic-Theme package is to offer a look that uses a minimum amount of graphical variables while allowing you to focus on the main content - which is that thing that you work on, not that thing that you use for your work.

I tried to start from zero and add a new variable (e.g., color) only when I could not distinguish something. There are still things that are superfluous (e.g., the border around all tabs, or the bulky shape of an expander), but I did not have enough time and Morphic expertise to do better.

Now, orange vs blue is actually not just a matter of taste because your orange is not the same as my blue. There are two reasons: (1) it is stronger, and (2) it appears in more places (e.g., at the bottom of the scrollbar). This means that it will compete for my attention with more force. This might be your intention, but it is not mine because it takes away from my main focus which is the content.

Suppose you would make the orange have the same visual weight as the current blue, then it would still not be the same because orange does not mean the same as blue in the cultural meaning it tends to raise. For example, blue is usually perceived as more neutral than other colors, and I want to use blue for this reason (and also because it is the color of Moose).

So, all in all, I do not want GLMOrangeUITheme in the Glamour-Morphic-Theme package :), but I do invite people with a UI design interest to build a shared vision that matches the one of the overall Pharo.

Doru

On 13 Jan 2011, at 11:46, Igor Stasenko wrote:

> On 13 January 2011 11:29, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 13 Jan 2011, at 11:12, Igor Stasenko wrote:
>>
>>> On 13 January 2011 10:41, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Of course, it is MIT and you can do what you want with it. I simply answered the question from Stef, and I meant that I won't include it in the code from the Glamour repository. If you do want to modify it in the mentioned direction, I would kindly ask you to use a different name to avoid confusion and conflicts - this theme is used by the Moose distribution.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Can you clarify:
>>> a) you don't want to modify Glamorous theme (GLMUITheme) by taking
>>> all methods from GLMUITheme2.
>>
>> Yes
>>
>>> b) you don't want to add a GLMUITheme2 , which is a subclass of GLMUITheme
>>> because these changes could live in GLMUITheme2, which is perfectly
>>> fine, while keeping an original GLMUITheme
>>> not changed.
>>> And we can call GLMUITheme2 a 'Glamorous orange'
>>> :)
>>
>> Yes :). It's true that technically it would work, but from an intention point of view it does not fit. Also, in general, except on very few occasions, I won't support adding anything that has a number at the end to distinguish the name :).
>>
>
> Not a big deal..
> We can rename it to
> GLMOrangeUITheme
>
> and make available to Pharo people?
> Still no? :)
>
>> Cheers,
>> Doru
>>
>> --
>> www.tudorgirba.com
>>
>> "The coherence of a trip is given by the clearness of the goal."
>>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
>

--
www.tudorgirba.com

"To lead is not to demand things, it is to make them happen."

Igor Stasenko

Re: [update 1.2] #12297

On 13 January 2011 12:29, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I tried to avoid a lengthy mail, but now I need to explain.
>
> UI design should be approached with the same rigor as system design. A community is better than an individual in producing solutions, but only when the effort is in concert under a shared vision. If the arguments are just about "I like this better", the process transforms into a design by committee which usually leads to poor results. So, let me share my "vision".
>
> The first thing that design should address is functionality (although visual appeal has a significant weight, too). In general, when you want to design something you should ask yourself why do you need to do that.
>
> The intention of the Glamour-Morphic-Theme package is to offer a look that uses a minimum amount of graphical variables while allowing you to focus on the main content - which is that thing that you work on, not that thing that you use for your work.
>
> I tried to start from zero and add a new variable (e.g., color) only when I could not distinguish something. There are still things that are superfluous (e.g., the border around all tabs, or the bulky shape of an expander), but I did not have enough time and Morphic expertise to do better.
>

That's why i like your theme. Because it is clean and simple and not
overloaded with tons of eye candy. Yet it is elegant.

> Now, orange vs blue is actually not just a matter of taste because your orange is not the same as my blue. There are two reasons: (1) it is stronger, and (2) it appears in more places (e.g., at the bottom of the scrollbar). This means that it will compete for my attention with more force. This might be your intention, but it is not mine because it takes away from my main focus which is the content.

I don't wanted to analyze why.. but if you want it..
Because orange for selection color fits much better: exactly because
it should draw an attention, because i need that - i need to see what
item(s) i selected, and orange serves better because it is higher
contrast on gray/white background comparing to pale blue.

>
> Suppose you would make the orange have the same visual weight as the current blue, then it would still not be the same because orange does not mean the same as blue in the cultural meaning it tends to raise. For example, blue is usually perceived as more neutral than other colors, and I want to use blue for this reason (and also because it is the color of Moose).

you lost me here. i never associating colors with cultural meaning.

>
> So, all in all, I do not want GLMOrangeUITheme in the Glamour-Morphic-Theme package :), but I do invite people with a UI design interest to build a shared vision that matches the one of the overall Pharo.
>

Okay.. it can be always putted into separate package.

> Doru
>

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Tudor Girba

Re: [update 1.2] #12297

Hi,

On 13 Jan 2011, at 13:18, Igor Stasenko wrote:

> On 13 January 2011 12:29, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I tried to avoid a lengthy mail, but now I need to explain.
>>
>> UI design should be approached with the same rigor as system design. A community is better than an individual in producing solutions, but only when the effort is in concert under a shared vision. If the arguments are just about "I like this better", the process transforms into a design by committee which usually leads to poor results. So, let me share my "vision".
>>
>> The first thing that design should address is functionality (although visual appeal has a significant weight, too). In general, when you want to design something you should ask yourself why do you need to do that.
>>
>> The intention of the Glamour-Morphic-Theme package is to offer a look that uses a minimum amount of graphical variables while allowing you to focus on the main content - which is that thing that you work on, not that thing that you use for your work.
>>
>> I tried to start from zero and add a new variable (e.g., color) only when I could not distinguish something. There are still things that are superfluous (e.g., the border around all tabs, or the bulky shape of an expander), but I did not have enough time and Morphic expertise to do better.
>>
>
> That's why i like your theme. Because it is clean and simple and not
> overloaded with tons of eye candy. Yet it is elegant.
>
>> Now, orange vs blue is actually not just a matter of taste because your orange is not the same as my blue. There are two reasons: (1) it is stronger, and (2) it appears in more places (e.g., at the bottom of the scrollbar). This means that it will compete for my attention with more force. This might be your intention, but it is not mine because it takes away from my main focus which is the content.
>
> I don't wanted to analyze why.. but if you want it..
> Because orange for selection color fits much better: exactly because
> it should draw an attention, because i need that - i need to see what
> item(s) i selected, and orange serves better because it is higher
> contrast on gray/white background comparing to pale blue.

Ok, we disagree, but that is fine, too :).

>>
>> Suppose you would make the orange have the same visual weight as the current blue, then it would still not be the same because orange does not mean the same as blue in the cultural meaning it tends to raise. For example, blue is usually perceived as more neutral than other colors, and I want to use blue for this reason (and also because it is the color of Moose).
>
> you lost me here. i never associating colors with cultural meaning.
>
>>
>> So, all in all, I do not want GLMOrangeUITheme in the Glamour-Morphic-Theme package :), but I do invite people with a UI design interest to build a shared vision that matches the one of the overall Pharo.
>>
>
> Okay.. it can be always putted into separate package.

That is what I am saying :). Thanks for understanding.

Cheers,
Doru

>> Doru
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
>

--
www.tudorgirba.com

"Some battles are better lost than fought."

Douglas Brebner

Re: [update 1.2] #12297

In reply to this post by Tudor Girba

On 13/01/2011 11:29, Tudor Girba wrote:
> I tried to start from zero and add a new variable (e.g., color) only when I could not distinguish something. There are still things that are superfluous (e.g., the border around all tabs, or the bulky shape of an expander), but I did not have enough time and Morphic expertise to do better.
>
> Now, orange vs blue is actually not just a matter of taste because your orange is not the same as my blue. There are two reasons: (1) it is stronger, and (2) it appears in more places (e.g., at the bottom of the scrollbar). This means that it will compete for my attention with more force. This might be your intention, but it is not mine because it takes away from my main focus which is the content.
>

I admit that I do like the blue for selections.
However, I find that the blue gradient on the buttons is difficult to
see clearly.

I suspect this is because the chosen blue has high contrast against the
white background of the list but *extremely* poor contrast with the grey
button/frame background. If you look at the browser in greyscale, the
difference stands out starkly (see the attached image).

I also find all of the buttons without white borders seem to blend into
the background so much as to become difficult to distinguish.

Otherwise, I do like it :)

Pharo-button-grey.jpg (7K) Download Attachment