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Arden Thomas

[vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

Hi folks;

I posted a question to my blog; Question for developers , about developers from other languages trying Smalltalk.

The quote from David Mertz is:

"I am very ambivalent about the imposed GUI/development environment/interpreter that Smalltalk (Squeak specifically in the tutorial) imposes on you. Smalltalk code focuses on ultra-short methods that really require the Smalltalk environment to browse and develop. I still feel a purity in separating my text editor from anything about the underlying language mechanisms. Smalltalk/Squeak is as far from that as it is possible to get: think Eclipse on steroids, and without any close button."

This, from my perspective, is one of those familiarity/comfort questions.

So, my question to the community but more so to any developer considering Smalltalk:

- If we made it so that you could write Smalltalk code in your favorite editor, would that be a bridge to help you become acquainted with Smalltalk?

- Second, would the comfort it brings overcome losing the power that the integration currently gives you? (hard question for non-Smalltalkers)

I appreciate any comments and perspective on this. Thanks!

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, and the impossible, possible

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Ivan Tomek

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

Hi Arden,

I think that the idea must sound horrible to every Smalltalk programmer. Moreover, I don't think that the Browser as such can be a major obstacle for a programmer in another language. My opinion is that the resources that this would require could be spent in a far more beneficial way. For example, if you want to address development in particular, you could perhaps develope a substantially stripped down browser with only the essential options so as not to overwhelm the beginner.

Ivan

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 11:22 AM
To: 'VWNC List'; [hidden email]
Subject: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

Hi folks;

I posted a question to my blog; Question for developers , about developers from other languages trying Smalltalk.

The quote from David Mertz is:

"I am very ambivalent about the imposed GUI/development environment/interpreter that Smalltalk (Squeak specifically in the tutorial) imposes on you. Smalltalk code focuses on ultra-short methods that really require the Smalltalk environment to browse and develop. I still feel a purity in separating my text editor from anything about the underlying language mechanisms. Smalltalk/Squeak is as far from that as it is possible to get: think Eclipse on steroids, and without any close button."

This, from my perspective, is one of those familiarity/comfort questions.

So, my question to the community but more so to any developer considering Smalltalk:

- If we made it so that you could write Smalltalk code in your favorite editor, would that be a bridge to help you become acquainted with Smalltalk?

- Second, would the comfort it brings overcome losing the power that the integration currently gives you? (hard question for non-Smalltalkers)

I appreciate any comments and perspective on this. Thanks!

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, and the impossible, possible

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Karsten Kusche

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Arden Thomas

Hi Arden,

>
> - If we made it so that you could write Smalltalk code in your
> favorite editor, would that be a bridge to help you become acquainted
> with Smalltalk?
>

If you want to write applications with a certain programming language,
you usually stick to the supplied editor. If you do MFC, you use
VisualStudio. If you do Cocoa, you use Xcode. If you do VisualWorks
Smalltalk, you use the RefactoringBrowser. Same goes for Java and Eclipse.
If you do want to use your own editor, you usually end up using another
dialect. You can use GCC together with some text-editor for MFC as well
i guess, but it's certainly no fun (if MFC is any fun at all ;-) ).
I think if you really want to work with a certain programming language
you sooner or later also work with the best editor for this particular
language, and not your personal favorite editor for you day to day editings.

>
> - Second, would the comfort it brings overcome losing the power that
> the integration currently gives you? (hard question for non-Smalltalkers)
>

probably only at the beginning, where the RefactoringBrowser is way to
overwhelming. But as soon as you start to understand the concepts, it's
really way better to use than any simple text-editor.

Kind Regards
Karsten

--
Karsten Kusche - Dipl.Inf. - [hidden email]
Tel: +49 3496 21 43 29
Georg Heeg eK - Köthen
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Dortmund A 12812

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Andre Schnoor

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Arden Thomas

I appreciate any comments and perspective on this. Thanks!

Hi Arden,

why not implement kind of a driver/middleware for each platform that maps a Smalltalk image to a virtual file system tree that can be simply mounted and worked on?

* File created = add method/class/whatever

* File renamed = rename selector/class/...

* File committed = accept source

* File moved = change (super)class ?

* etc.

Some tiny executable could mimic a "compiler", but actually it just retrieves messages from the running Smalltalk image and prints them, so any arbitrary external IDE may pick up the errors and "line numbers" and visit the associated file ;-) This would allow for transparent, filesystem-based use of Smalltalk. At least for the edit and compile cycle. I have no idea so far how to debug and run ... possibly one could also fake gdb ...

I mean, this is just crazy stuff that popped off the top of my head. I would guess that any such kind of project would be prohibitively expensive and time consuming. And there is still the danger of not really convincing anyone in the end.

This "ultra-short methods" perception is because of the granular inner structure of Smalltalk itself and this can't be hidden/substituted/faked-away without losing everything of what's actually its unique strength.

I could imagine a command line based approach that might especially work for web frameworks. Whether that is interactive enough to make people learn about the advantage of Smalltalk, no idea.

Andre

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Sattler, Thomas (IT)

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Karsten Kusche

Uh .... Karsten, hat is no longer the case. The industry is standardizing on Eclipse. "Same goes for Java and Eclipse" was correct five years ago, but no longer.

There are Eclipse plugins for Ruby, and Python, and C++, and PHP, and even Haskell. There are at least three Eclispe plugins for Lisp that I just found in a Google search.

Thomas Sattler
Morgan Stanley | Technology
750 Seventh Avenue, 14th Floor | New York, NY 10019
Phone: +1 212 762-1212
[hidden email]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Karsten
> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 12:48 PM
> To: Arden Thomas
> Cc: 'VWNC List'; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk
>
> Hi Arden,
>
> >
> > - If we made it so that you could write Smalltalk code in your
> > favorite editor, would that be a bridge to help you become
> acquainted
> > with Smalltalk?
> >
>
> If you want to write applications with a certain programming
> language, you usually stick to the supplied editor. If you do
> MFC, you use VisualStudio. If you do Cocoa, you use Xcode. If
> you do VisualWorks Smalltalk, you use the RefactoringBrowser.
> Same goes for Java and Eclipse.
> If you do want to use your own editor, you usually end up
> using another dialect. You can use GCC together with some
> text-editor for MFC as well i guess, but it's certainly no
> fun (if MFC is any fun at all ;-) ).
> I think if you really want to work with a certain programming
> language you sooner or later also work with the best editor
> for this particular language, and not your personal favorite
> editor for you day to day editings.
>
> >
> > - Second, would the comfort it brings overcome losing the
> power that
> > the integration currently gives you? (hard question for
> > non-Smalltalkers)
> >
>
> probably only at the beginning, where the RefactoringBrowser
> is way to overwhelming. But as soon as you start to
> understand the concepts, it's really way better to use than
> any simple text-editor.
>
> Kind Regards
> Karsten
>
>
> --
> Karsten Kusche - Dipl.Inf. - [hidden email]
> Tel: +49 3496 21 43 29
> Georg Heeg eK - Köthen
> Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Dortmund A 12812
>
> _______________________________________________
> vwnc mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc
>

--------------------------------------------------------

NOTICE: If received in error, please destroy and notify sender. Sender does not intend to waive confidentiality or privilege. Use of this email is prohibited when received in error.

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Mark Pirogovsky-3

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Ivan Tomek

We can all start programing in the Assembler using something like VI or
ed line. I do use VI on occasions to edit few *.st files - that is a
great reminder how much nicer the Browser on any type of IDE is :-)

1. I think first thing you have to do is to translate all of the VW
tools into the major native languages like German, French,
Spanish,Italian or Russian -- I think there are as many smalltalk
developers speaking those as English speaking folks.

BTW few days ago I asked that question - about language translations for
the VW IDE and I did not get any straight answer.

2. Instead of trying to replace smalltalk browser, why not to make them
to look more like other more familiar tools?

My 2c.

Ivan Tomek wrote:

>
> Hi Arden,
>
> I think that the idea must sound horrible to every Smalltalk programmer.
> Moreover, I don't think that the Browser as such can be a major obstacle
> for a programmer in another language. My opinion is that the resources
> that this would require could be spent in a far more beneficial way. For
> example, if you want to address development in particular, you could
> perhaps develope a substantially stripped down browser with only the
> essential options so as not to overwhelm the beginner.
>
> Ivan
>
> *From:* [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
> *On Behalf Of *Arden Thomas
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 23, 2008 11:22 AM
> *To:* 'VWNC List'; [hidden email]
> *Subject:* [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk
>
> Hi folks;
>
>
>
> I posted a question to my blog; Question for developers
> <http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/arden/blogView?showComments=true&printTitle=Question_for_Developers&entry=3394260311>
> , about developers from other languages trying Smalltalk.
>
>
>
> The quote from David Mertz is:
>
>
>
> "I am very ambivalent about the imposed GUI/development
> environment/interpreter that Smalltalk (Squeak specifically in the
> tutorial) imposes on you. Smalltalk code focuses on ultra-short
> methods that really require the Smalltalk environment to browse and
> develop. I still feel a purity in separating my text editor from
> anything about the underlying language mechanisms. Smalltalk/Squeak
> is as far from that as it is possible to get: think Eclipse on
> steroids, and without any close button."
>
> This, from my perspective, is one of those familiarity/comfort
> questions.
>
> So, my question to the community but more so to any developer
> considering Smalltalk:
>
> - If we made it so that you could write Smalltalk code in your
> favorite editor, would that be a bridge to help you become
> acquainted with Smalltalk?
>
> - Second, would the comfort it brings overcome losing the power that
> the integration currently gives you? (hard question for
> non-Smalltalkers)
>
>
>
> I appreciate any comments and perspective on this. Thanks!
>
>
>
> Arden Thomas
>
> Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
>
>
>
> Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, and the impossible,
> possible
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> vwnc mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

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James Robertson-7

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Sattler, Thomas (IT)

> Uh .... Karsten, hat is no longer the case. The industry is
> standardizing on Eclipse. "Same goes for Java and Eclipse" was
> correct five years ago, but no longer.
>
> There are Eclipse plugins for Ruby, and Python, and C++, and PHP,
> and even Haskell. There are at least three Eclispe plugins for Lisp
> that I just found in a Google search.
>
>
>
>
> Thomas Sattler
> Morgan Stanley | Technology
> 750 Seventh Avenue, 14th Floor | New York, NY 10019
> Phone: +1 212 762-1212
> [hidden email]
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Karsten
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 12:48 PM
>> To: Arden Thomas
>> Cc: 'VWNC List'; [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk
>>
>> Hi Arden,
>>
>>>
>>> - If we made it so that you could write Smalltalk code in your
>>> favorite editor, would that be a bridge to help you become
>> acquainted
>>> with Smalltalk?
>>>
>>
>> If you want to write applications with a certain programming
>> language, you usually stick to the supplied editor. If you do
>> MFC, you use VisualStudio. If you do Cocoa, you use Xcode. If
>> you do VisualWorks Smalltalk, you use the RefactoringBrowser.
>> Same goes for Java and Eclipse.
>> If you do want to use your own editor, you usually end up
>> using another dialect. You can use GCC together with some
>> text-editor for MFC as well i guess, but it's certainly no
>> fun (if MFC is any fun at all ;-) ).
>> I think if you really want to work with a certain programming
>> language you sooner or later also work with the best editor
>> for this particular language, and not your personal favorite
>> editor for you day to day editings.
>>
>>>
>>> - Second, would the comfort it brings overcome losing the
>> power that
>>> the integration currently gives you? (hard question for
>>> non-Smalltalkers)
>>>
>>
>> probably only at the beginning, where the RefactoringBrowser
>> is way to overwhelming. But as soon as you start to
>> understand the concepts, it's really way better to use than
>> any simple text-editor.
>>
>> Kind Regards
>> Karsten
>>
>>
>> --
>> Karsten Kusche - Dipl.Inf. - [hidden email]
>> Tel: +49 3496 21 43 29
>> Georg Heeg eK - Köthen
>> Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Dortmund A 12812
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> vwnc mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc
>>
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> NOTICE: If received in error, please destroy and notify sender.
> Sender does not intend to waive confidentiality or privilege. Use of
> this email is prohibited when received in error.
>
> _______________________________________________
> vwnc mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc
>

_______________________________________________
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James Robertson-7

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Mark Pirogovsky-3

There are tool level translations for Japanese (done out of our
Japanese Cincom office). I'm not aware of a complete translation for
any other language; certainly the environment could support such a
translation

James Robertson
Cincom Smalltalk Product Evangelist
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library

On Jul 23, 2008, at 1:19 PM, Mark Pirogovsky wrote:

> We can all start programing in the Assembler using something like VI
> or
> ed line. I do use VI on occasions to edit few *.st files - that is a
> great reminder how much nicer the Browser on any type of IDE is :-)
>
>
> 1. I think first thing you have to do is to translate all of the VW
> tools into the major native languages like German, French,
> Spanish,Italian or Russian -- I think there are as many smalltalk
> developers speaking those as English speaking folks.
>
> BTW few days ago I asked that question - about language translations
> for
> the VW IDE and I did not get any straight answer.
>
> 2. Instead of trying to replace smalltalk browser, why not to make
> them
> to look more like other more familiar tools?
>
> My 2c.
>
>
> Ivan Tomek wrote:
>>
>> Hi Arden,
>>
>> I think that the idea must sound horrible to every Smalltalk
>> programmer.
>> Moreover, I don't think that the Browser as such can be a major
>> obstacle
>> for a programmer in another language. My opinion is that the
>> resources
>> that this would require could be spent in a far more beneficial
>> way. For
>> example, if you want to address development in particular, you could
>> perhaps develope a substantially stripped down browser with only the
>> essential options so as not to overwhelm the beginner.
>>
>> Ivan
>>
>> *From:* [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> *On Behalf Of *Arden Thomas
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 23, 2008 11:22 AM
>> *To:* 'VWNC List'; [hidden email]
>> *Subject:* [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk
>>
>> Hi folks;
>>
>>
>>
>> I posted a question to my blog; Question for developers
>> <http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/arden/blogView?showComments=true&printTitle=Question_for_Developers&entry=3394260311
>> >
>> , about developers from other languages trying Smalltalk.
>>
>>
>>
>> The quote from David Mertz is:
>>
>>
>>
>> "I am very ambivalent about the imposed GUI/development
>> environment/interpreter that Smalltalk (Squeak specifically in the
>> tutorial) imposes on you. Smalltalk code focuses on ultra-short
>> methods that really require the Smalltalk environment to browse
>> and
>> develop. I still feel a purity in separating my text editor from
>> anything about the underlying language mechanisms. Smalltalk/
>> Squeak
>> is as far from that as it is possible to get: think Eclipse on
>> steroids, and without any close button."
>>
>> This, from my perspective, is one of those familiarity/comfort
>> questions.
>>
>> So, my question to the community but more so to any developer
>> considering Smalltalk:
>>
>> - If we made it so that you could write Smalltalk code in your
>> favorite editor, would that be a bridge to help you become
>> acquainted with Smalltalk?
>>
>> - Second, would the comfort it brings overcome losing the power
>> that
>> the integration currently gives you? (hard question for
>> non-Smalltalkers)
>>
>>
>>
>> I appreciate any comments and perspective on this. Thanks!
>>
>>
>>
>> Arden Thomas
>>
>> Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
>>
>>
>>
>> Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, and the
>> impossible,
>> possible
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> vwnc mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc
> _______________________________________________
> vwnc mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc
>

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Travis Griggs-3

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Sattler, Thomas (IT)

On Jul 23, 2008, at 10:13 AM, Sattler, Thomas (IT) wrote:

> Uh .... Karsten, hat is no longer the case. The industry is
> standardizing on Eclipse. "Same goes for Java and Eclipse" was
> correct five years ago, but no longer.
>
> There are Eclipse plugins for Ruby, and Python, and C++, and PHP,
> and even Haskell. There are at least three Eclispe plugins for Lisp
> that I just found in a Google search.

Are they using them though? People have been making plugins for
Eclipse for a while. But just because someone whips one up, doesn't
mean the masses are switching to it. I admit I don't know. I do know a
number of people out there who are doing Ruby, Python, C++, and PHP (I
don't know anyone doing Haskell, I must need to broaden my horizons).
Not a single one of them uses Eclipse. My data set is small though.
Maybe others can site more definitive indicators.

--
Travis Griggs
Objologist
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is
striking at the root" - Henry David Thoreau

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Holger Kleinsorgen-4

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Andre Schnoor

Andre Schnoor schrieb:

like SqueakFS? ;)
http://www.squeaksource.com/SqueakFS.html
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Travis Griggs-3

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Andre Schnoor

On Jul 23, 2008, at 10:09 AM, Andre Schnoor wrote:

>
>
>> I appreciate any comments and perspective on this. Thanks!
>
> Hi Arden,
>
> why not implement kind of a driver/middleware for each platform that
> maps a Smalltalk image to a virtual file system tree that can be
> simply mounted and worked on?
>
> * File created = add method/class/whatever
> * File renamed = rename selector/class/...
> * File committed = accept source
> * File moved = change (super)class ?
> * etc.
>
> Some tiny executable could mimic a "compiler", but actually it just
> retrieves messages from the running Smalltalk image and prints them,
> so any arbitrary external IDE may pick up the errors and "line
> numbers" and visit the associated file ;-) This would allow for
> transparent, filesystem-based use of Smalltalk. At least for the
> edit and compile cycle. I have no idea so far how to debug and
> run ... possibly one could also fake gdb ...

I've said this in other forums before, so pardon my repetiveness if
you've heard it from me before. In Colorado Camp Smalltalk (2003?),
Claus Gittinger hooked up his Smalltalk/X image to UserFS (called FUSE
now days). It was neat, you cd'ed to a mount point, and did an 'ls',
you saw a bunch of directories, whose names were all the classes in
the system. If you mkdir'ed a new directory, you got a new class. rm -
r'd a directory removed it. cd into the directory and ls, and you see
a bunch of files, all whose names were method names.

--
Travis Griggs
Objologist
"Some people are like slinkies, not really good for much, but they can
bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs."

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Eliot Miranda-2

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by James Robertson-7

I think the essential (and probably obvious) thing to keep in mind here is that if it forces you to compromise what you're good at then its a bad move, but if it doesn't and broadens the appeal affordably then go for it. You have to keep and strengthen what you're best at.

I don't know about y'all but I often find myself writing out a source file, editing it with vi or whatever and filing it back in. I occasionally find myself reordering or assembling change sets in an editor (be it Smalltalk, vi or whatever, but outside of a changeset tool). Its not the end of the world. Further, the scripting environment has to provide reasonable text-based facilities.

So as long as its not a replacement or displacement but an enhancement and an enlargement go for it.

On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 10:28 AM, James Robertson <[hidden email]> wrote:

You might want to listen to our chat with Daniel Heidinga about
Eclipse and Smalltalk:

http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView?showComments=true&printTitle=Industry_Misinterpretations_89:_Partial_Eclipse&entry=3389212113

Hooking a classic Smalltalk environment up to something like Eclipse
is not as simple as you might imagine. We say that the language and
the environment are merged for a reason. Yes, there are pros and cons
to that fact. What Arden is trying to explore is whether people
believe that the pros offered by an external editor outweigh the cons
of building that support (and living with it).

IMHO, the jury is still out on that one.

James Robertson
Cincom Smalltalk Product Evangelist
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library

On Jul 23, 2008, at 1:13 PM, Sattler, Thomas (IT) wrote:

> Uh .... Karsten, hat is no longer the case. The industry is
> standardizing on Eclipse. "Same goes for Java and Eclipse" was
> correct five years ago, but no longer.
>
> There are Eclipse plugins for Ruby, and Python, and C++, and PHP,
> and even Haskell. There are at least three Eclispe plugins for Lisp
> that I just found in a Google search.
>
>
>
>
> Thomas Sattler
> Morgan Stanley | Technology
> 750 Seventh Avenue, 14th Floor | New York, NY 10019
> Phone: +1 212 762-1212
> [hidden email]
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Karsten
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 12:48 PM
>> To: Arden Thomas
>> Cc: 'VWNC List'; [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk
>>
>> Hi Arden,
>>
>>>
>>> - If we made it so that you could write Smalltalk code in your
>>> favorite editor, would that be a bridge to help you become
>> acquainted
>>> with Smalltalk?
>>>
>>
>> If you want to write applications with a certain programming
>> language, you usually stick to the supplied editor. If you do
>> MFC, you use VisualStudio. If you do Cocoa, you use Xcode. If
>> you do VisualWorks Smalltalk, you use the RefactoringBrowser.
>> Same goes for Java and Eclipse.
>> If you do want to use your own editor, you usually end up
>> using another dialect. You can use GCC together with some
>> text-editor for MFC as well i guess, but it's certainly no
>> fun (if MFC is any fun at all ;-) ).
>> I think if you really want to work with a certain programming
>> language you sooner or later also work with the best editor
>> for this particular language, and not your personal favorite
>> editor for you day to day editings.
>>
>>>
>>> - Second, would the comfort it brings overcome losing the
>> power that
>>> the integration currently gives you? (hard question for
>>> non-Smalltalkers)
>>>
>>
>> probably only at the beginning, where the RefactoringBrowser
>> is way to overwhelming. But as soon as you start to
>> understand the concepts, it's really way better to use than
>> any simple text-editor.
>>
>> Kind Regards
>> Karsten
>>
>>
>> --
>> Karsten Kusche - Dipl.Inf. - [hidden email]
>> Tel: +49 3496 21 43 29
>> Georg Heeg eK - Köthen
>> Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Dortmund A 12812
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> vwnc mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc
>>
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> NOTICE: If received in error, please destroy and notify sender.
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Terry Raymond

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

I agree with Eliot.

Additionally, GNU smalltalk has a syntax designed to be edited by

a traditional editor. However, I glanced at the FAQ and I am not sure

we would want to use that syntax. But, I do think that it would be

necessary to devise a syntax for files that is easier to read and edit

than chunk format.

Terry

===========================================================
Terry Raymond
Crafted Smalltalk
80 Lazywood Ln.
Tiverton, RI 02878
(401) 624-4517 [hidden email]
<http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com>
===========================================================

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Eliot Miranda
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 1:48 PM
To: James Robertson
Cc: VW NC
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

So as long as its not a replacement or displacement but an enhancement and an enlargement go for it.

On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 10:28 AM, James Robertson <[hidden email]> wrote:

You might want to listen to our chat with Daniel Heidinga about
Eclipse and Smalltalk:

http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView?showComments=true&printTitle=Industry_Misinterpretations_89:_Partial_Eclipse&entry=3389212113

Hooking a classic Smalltalk environment up to something like Eclipse
is not as simple as you might imagine. We say that the language and
the environment are merged for a reason. Yes, there are pros and cons
to that fact. What Arden is trying to explore is whether people
believe that the pros offered by an external editor outweigh the cons
of building that support (and living with it).

IMHO, the jury is still out on that one.

James Robertson
Cincom Smalltalk Product Evangelist
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library

On Jul 23, 2008, at 1:13 PM, Sattler, Thomas (IT) wrote:

> Uh .... Karsten, hat is no longer the case. The industry is
> standardizing on Eclipse. "Same goes for Java and Eclipse" was
> correct five years ago, but no longer.
>
> There are Eclipse plugins for Ruby, and Python, and C++, and PHP,
> and even Haskell. There are at least three Eclispe plugins for Lisp
> that I just found in a Google search.
>
>
>
>
> Thomas Sattler
> Morgan Stanley | Technology
> 750 Seventh Avenue, 14th Floor | New York, NY 10019
> Phone: +1 212 762-1212
> [hidden email]
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Karsten
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 12:48 PM
>> To: Arden Thomas
>> Cc: 'VWNC List'; [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk
>>
>> Hi Arden,
>>
>>>
>>> - If we made it so that you could write Smalltalk code in your
>>> favorite editor, would that be a bridge to help you become
>> acquainted
>>> with Smalltalk?
>>>
>>
>> If you want to write applications with a certain programming
>> language, you usually stick to the supplied editor. If you do
>> MFC, you use VisualStudio. If you do Cocoa, you use Xcode. If
>> you do VisualWorks Smalltalk, you use the RefactoringBrowser.
>> Same goes for Java and Eclipse.
>> If you do want to use your own editor, you usually end up
>> using another dialect. You can use GCC together with some
>> text-editor for MFC as well i guess, but it's certainly no
>> fun (if MFC is any fun at all ;-) ).
>> I think if you really want to work with a certain programming
>> language you sooner or later also work with the best editor
>> for this particular language, and not your personal favorite
>> editor for you day to day editings.
>>
>>>
>>> - Second, would the comfort it brings overcome losing the
>> power that
>>> the integration currently gives you? (hard question for
>>> non-Smalltalkers)
>>>
>>
>> probably only at the beginning, where the RefactoringBrowser
>> is way to overwhelming. But as soon as you start to
>> understand the concepts, it's really way better to use than
>> any simple text-editor.
>>
>> Kind Regards
>> Karsten
>>
>>
>> --
>> Karsten Kusche - Dipl.Inf. - [hidden email]
>> Tel: +49 3496 21 43 29
>> Georg Heeg eK - Köthen
>> Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Dortmund A 12812
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> vwnc mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc
>>
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> NOTICE: If received in error, please destroy and notify sender.
> Sender does not intend to waive confidentiality or privilege. Use of
> this email is prohibited when received in error.
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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Stefan Schmiedl

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Arden Thomas

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:22:20 -0400
Arden Thomas <[hidden email]> wrote:

> - If we made it so that you could write Smalltalk code in your favorite
> editor, would that be a bridge to help you become acquainted with Smalltalk?

Gnu Smalltalk has already been mentioned in one response to your blog
article. While no masses are flocking, I do notice new names coming up
with questions on the mailing list.

> - Second, would the comfort it brings overcome losing the power that the
> integration currently gives you? (hard question for non-Smalltalkers)

Before starting a serious relationship with Smalltalk, I worked a lot
with Ruby (and IOWA, Seaside's predecessor, also by Avi). I found that
the code size and familiarity with the language are the most important
factors for me. I could not program my way out of a paper bag in Java
without an IDE like IntelliJ or Eclipse or NetBeans.

When I started using Smalltalk I found the IDE functions "Browse
senders" and "Browse implementors" most helpful in getting used to
language and library. A few months of solid Smalltalking down the
road, I should be able to tackle writing Smalltalk source in vim, too.
I'm not saying that I would, just that I'd feel efficient enough to do
so.

s.
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Eliot Miranda-2

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Terry Raymond

On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 11:01 AM, Terry Raymond <[hidden email]> wrote:

I agree with Eliot.

Additionally, GNU smalltalk has a syntax designed to be edited by

a traditional editor. However, I glanced at the FAQ and I am not sure

we would want to use that syntax. But, I do think that it would be

necessary to devise a syntax for files that is easier to read and edit

than chunk format.

At least take a look at Gilad Bracha's Newspeak syntax. I don't like all the brackets but it does work. Newspeak has had file-centricity in mind from the get-go.

Terry

===========================================================
Terry Raymond
Crafted Smalltalk
80 Lazywood Ln.
Tiverton, RI 02878
(401) 624-4517 [hidden email]
<http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com>
===========================================================

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Eliot Miranda
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 1:48 PM
To: James Robertson
Cc: VW NC

Subject: Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

I think the essential (and probably obvious) thing to keep in mind here is that if it forces you to compromise what you're good at then its a bad move, but if it doesn't and broadens the appeal affordably then go for it. You have to keep and strengthen what you're best at.

I don't know about y'all but I often find myself writing out a source file, editing it with vi or whatever and filing it back in. I occasionally find myself reordering or assembling change sets in an editor (be it Smalltalk, vi or whatever, but outside of a changeset tool). Its not the end of the world. Further, the scripting environment has to provide reasonable text-based facilities.

So as long as its not a replacement or displacement but an enhancement and an enlargement go for it.

On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 10:28 AM, James Robertson <[hidden email]> wrote:

You might want to listen to our chat with Daniel Heidinga about
Eclipse and Smalltalk:

http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView?showComments=true&printTitle=Industry_Misinterpretations_89:_Partial_Eclipse&entry=3389212113

Hooking a classic Smalltalk environment up to something like Eclipse
is not as simple as you might imagine. We say that the language and
the environment are merged for a reason. Yes, there are pros and cons
to that fact. What Arden is trying to explore is whether people
believe that the pros offered by an external editor outweigh the cons
of building that support (and living with it).

IMHO, the jury is still out on that one.

James Robertson
Cincom Smalltalk Product Evangelist
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library

On Jul 23, 2008, at 1:13 PM, Sattler, Thomas (IT) wrote:

> Uh .... Karsten, hat is no longer the case. The industry is
> standardizing on Eclipse. "Same goes for Java and Eclipse" was
> correct five years ago, but no longer.
>
> There are Eclipse plugins for Ruby, and Python, and C++, and PHP,
> and even Haskell. There are at least three Eclispe plugins for Lisp
> that I just found in a Google search.
>
>
>
>
> Thomas Sattler
> Morgan Stanley | Technology
> 750 Seventh Avenue, 14th Floor | New York, NY 10019
> Phone: +1 212 762-1212
> [hidden email]
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Karsten
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 12:48 PM
>> To: Arden Thomas
>> Cc: 'VWNC List'; [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk
>>
>> Hi Arden,
>>
>>>
>>> - If we made it so that you could write Smalltalk code in your
>>> favorite editor, would that be a bridge to help you become
>> acquainted
>>> with Smalltalk?
>>>
>>
>> If you want to write applications with a certain programming
>> language, you usually stick to the supplied editor. If you do
>> MFC, you use VisualStudio. If you do Cocoa, you use Xcode. If
>> you do VisualWorks Smalltalk, you use the RefactoringBrowser.
>> Same goes for Java and Eclipse.
>> If you do want to use your own editor, you usually end up
>> using another dialect. You can use GCC together with some
>> text-editor for MFC as well i guess, but it's certainly no
>> fun (if MFC is any fun at all ;-) ).
>> I think if you really want to work with a certain programming
>> language you sooner or later also work with the best editor
>> for this particular language, and not your personal favorite
>> editor for you day to day editings.
>>
>>>
>>> - Second, would the comfort it brings overcome losing the
>> power that
>>> the integration currently gives you? (hard question for
>>> non-Smalltalkers)
>>>
>>
>> probably only at the beginning, where the RefactoringBrowser
>> is way to overwhelming. But as soon as you start to
>> understand the concepts, it's really way better to use than
>> any simple text-editor.
>>
>> Kind Regards
>> Karsten
>>
>>
>> --
>> Karsten Kusche - Dipl.Inf. - [hidden email]
>> Tel: +49 3496 21 43 29
>> Georg Heeg eK - Köthen
>> Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Dortmund A 12812
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> vwnc mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc
>>
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> NOTICE: If received in error, please destroy and notify sender.
> Sender does not intend to waive confidentiality or privilege. Use of
> this email is prohibited when received in error.
>
> _______________________________________________
> vwnc mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc
>

_______________________________________________
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Paul Baumann

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Holger Kleinsorgen-4

Arden,

Support is already there, it just isn't what Smalltalkers prefer to use.
Just use "-filein" as in:

visual.exe headless.im -filein main.st

People tend to think that filein is only for code movement. It has a few
keywords, but it also just compiles and executes any code you give it.
Launch a headless image. If you think -filein is too primitive then use
it to load a parcel that adds and/or launches the behavior you are
looking for. STDIN/STDOUT processing is not difficult to write.

If you want interactive command line then look at GemStone's Topaz
interface to GS/S. That is extremely well done and used by all GS/S
DBAs. Cincom developers should have GS/S training. There is a lot of
good stuff there.

Paul Baumann

Arden wrote:

So, my question to the community but more so to any developer
considering Smalltalk:

- If we made it so that you could write Smalltalk code in your favorite
editor, would that be a bridge to help you become acquainted with
Smalltalk?

- Second, would the comfort it brings overcome losing the power that the
integration currently gives you? (hard question for non-Smalltalkers)

I appreciate any comments and perspective on this. Thanks!

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

--------------------------------------------------------
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Andres Valloud-6

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Mark Pirogovsky-3

I'd like to disagree regarding the translation of the development tools.
At least in my experience growing up in a Spanish speaking country, I
have to say that I prefer computers and their software in English. The
reason is that sooner or later, you realize the English version just
makes more sense because it is the original one. There's no language
problems (Spanish has gender, English does not), there are no
artificially shoehorned terms where they don't belong because Spanish
was not the language in which the thing was invented, and finally there
are no translation problems where you find yourself reading really poor
Spanish (or perhaps a variant of Spanish that sounds particularly odd in
yours).

I think Smalltalk just reinforces this preference because the syntax
works in a language like English. In a language with gender, you can't
simply say Object new --- for example, is it Object nueva or Object
nuevo? There is no so-called 'number' in it either. For instance, in
English we get away with saying things like Things new, while in Spanish
we would have to say Things nuevas (or nuevos). The huge amount of code
written in English and with English comments basically forces you to
learn English as well. At that point, I see little benefit in
translating the IDE.

But... this is just an opinion.

Andres.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Mark Pirogovsky
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:19 AM
To: Ivan Tomek
Cc: VWNC List; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

We can all start programing in the Assembler using something like VI or
ed line. I do use VI on occasions to edit few *.st files - that is a
great reminder how much nicer the Browser on any type of IDE is :-)

1. I think first thing you have to do is to translate all of the VW
tools into the major native languages like German, French,
Spanish,Italian or Russian -- I think there are as many smalltalk
developers speaking those as English speaking folks.

BTW few days ago I asked that question - about language translations for
the VW IDE and I did not get any straight answer.

2. Instead of trying to replace smalltalk browser, why not to make them
to look more like other more familiar tools?

My 2c.

Ivan Tomek wrote:
>
> Hi Arden,
>
> I think that the idea must sound horrible to every Smalltalk
programmer.
> Moreover, I don't think that the Browser as such can be a major
> obstacle for a programmer in another language. My opinion is that the
> resources that this would require could be spent in a far more
> beneficial way. For example, if you want to address development in
> particular, you could perhaps develope a substantially stripped down
> browser with only the essential options so as not to overwhelm the
beginner.

>
> Ivan
>
> *From:* [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
> *On Behalf Of *Arden Thomas
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 23, 2008 11:22 AM
> *To:* 'VWNC List'; [hidden email]
> *Subject:* [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk
>
> Hi folks;
>
>
>
> I posted a question to my blog; Question for developers
>

<http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/arden/blogView?showComments=tr
ue&printTitle=Question_for_Developers&entry=3394260311>

> , about developers from other languages trying Smalltalk.
>
>
>
> The quote from David Mertz is:
>
>
>
> "I am very ambivalent about the imposed GUI/development
> environment/interpreter that Smalltalk (Squeak specifically in the
> tutorial) imposes on you. Smalltalk code focuses on ultra-short
> methods that really require the Smalltalk environment to browse

and
> develop. I still feel a purity in separating my text editor from
> anything about the underlying language mechanisms.
Smalltalk/Squeak

> is as far from that as it is possible to get: think Eclipse on
> steroids, and without any close button."
>
> This, from my perspective, is one of those familiarity/comfort
> questions.
>
> So, my question to the community but more so to any developer
> considering Smalltalk:
>
> - If we made it so that you could write Smalltalk code in your
> favorite editor, would that be a bridge to help you become
> acquainted with Smalltalk?
>
> - Second, would the comfort it brings overcome losing the power

that

> the integration currently gives you? (hard question for
> non-Smalltalkers)
>
>
>
> I appreciate any comments and perspective on this. Thanks!
>
>
>
> Arden Thomas
>
> Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
>
>
>
> Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, and the

impossible,

> possible
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
>
> _______________________________________________
> vwnc mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

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James Robertson-7

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Paul Baumann

I manage the Cincom Smalltalk website that way. I have a startup
script, which is just Smalltalk code. I Bring in patches via a file
in that loads a change set or a parcel. On the same server, I have
cron jobs that run using command lines a lot like what Paul has below,
where the last command in the script is "ObjectMemory quit"

James Robertson
Cincom Smalltalk Product Evangelist
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView
Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library

On Jul 23, 2008, at 2:19 PM, Paul Baumann wrote:

> Arden,
>
> Support is already there, it just isn't what Smalltalkers prefer to
> use.
> Just use "-filein" as in:
>
> visual.exe headless.im -filein main.st
>
> People tend to think that filein is only for code movement. It has a
> few
> keywords, but it also just compiles and executes any code you give it.
> Launch a headless image. If you think -filein is too primitive then
> use
> it to load a parcel that adds and/or launches the behavior you are
> looking for. STDIN/STDOUT processing is not difficult to write.
>
> If you want interactive command line then look at GemStone's Topaz
> interface to GS/S. That is extremely well done and used by all GS/S
> DBAs. Cincom developers should have GS/S training. There is a lot of
> good stuff there.
>
> Paul Baumann
>
>
> Arden wrote:
>
> So, my question to the community but more so to any developer
> considering Smalltalk:
>
> - If we made it so that you could write Smalltalk code in your
> favorite
> editor, would that be a bridge to help you become acquainted with
> Smalltalk?
>
> - Second, would the comfort it brings overcome losing the power that
> the
> integration currently gives you? (hard question for non-Smalltalkers)
>
> I appreciate any comments and perspective on this. Thanks!
>
> Arden Thomas
>
> Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> This message may contain confidential information and is intended
> for specific recipients unless explicitly noted otherwise. If you
> have reason to believe you are not an intended recipient of this
> message, please delete it and notify the sender. This message may
> not represent the opinion of IntercontinentalExchange, Inc. (ICE),
> its subsidiaries or affiliates, and does not constitute a contract
> or guarantee. Unencrypted electronic mail is not secure and the
> recipient of this message is expected to provide safeguards from
> viruses and pursue alternate means of communication where privacy or
> a binding message is desired.
>
> _______________________________________________
> vwnc mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc
>

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Andre Schnoor

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Karsten Kusche

Am 23.07.2008 um 18:47 schrieb Karsten:

> If you want to write applications with a certain programming language,
> you usually stick to the supplied editor.

Agreed. But what if you don't yet want to write applications swith
Smalltalk?

What if the Smalltalk community attempts to convince you by showcasing
Smalltalk in your favorite IDE, telling you that it's worth taking the
learning curve, because everything will be much better once you'll
throw away your favorite IDE and use Smalltalk as intended?

Andre

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stéphane ducasse-2

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Arden Thomas

I think that there is a room for the following scenario.
- I code my application or script in the editor I want.
If I prefer to code it into the best integrated IDE I use a smalltalk
image one.

- I can run my application/scripts on the command line
smallscript/rb myapp

- when I have a problem I run
smallscript/rb -db myapp
and I get the full environment I can debug with our lovely debugger

I never really understood why we cannot have both worlds at the same
time.
We designed a scripting syntax for Smalltalk and I hope to integrate
soon in pharo our
squeak-fork. I can send the document which summarize my discussion
with Gemstone and GNU guys.

Stef

On Jul 23, 2008, at 4:22 PM, Arden Thomas wrote:

> Hi folks;
>
> I posted a question to my blog; Question for developers , about
> developers from other languages trying Smalltalk.
>
> The quote from David Mertz is:
>
> "I am very ambivalent about the imposed GUI/development environment/
> interpreter that Smalltalk (Squeak specifically in the tutorial)
> imposes on you. Smalltalk code focuses on ultra-short methods that
> really require the Smalltalk environment to browse and develop. I
> still feel a purity in separating my text editor from anything about
> the underlying language mechanisms. Smalltalk/Squeak is as far from
> that as it is possible to get: think Eclipse on steroids, and
> without any close button."
>
> This, from my perspective, is one of those familiarity/comfort
> questions.
>
> So, my question to the community but more so to any developer
> considering Smalltalk:
>
> - If we made it so that you could write Smalltalk code in your
> favorite editor, would that be a bridge to help you become
> acquainted with Smalltalk?
>
> - Second, would the comfort it brings overcome losing the power that
> the integration currently gives you? (hard question for non-
> Smalltalkers)
>
> I appreciate any comments and perspective on this. Thanks!
>
> Arden Thomas
> Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
>
> Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, and the impossible,
> possible
>
> _______________________________________________
> vwnc mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

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