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Nicolas Cellier-3

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

Valloud, Andres a écrit :

> I'd like to disagree regarding the translation of the development tools.
> At least in my experience growing up in a Spanish speaking country, I
> have to say that I prefer computers and their software in English. The
> reason is that sooner or later, you realize the English version just
> makes more sense because it is the original one. There's no language
> problems (Spanish has gender, English does not), there are no
> artificially shoehorned terms where they don't belong because Spanish
> was not the language in which the thing was invented, and finally there
> are no translation problems where you find yourself reading really poor
> Spanish (or perhaps a variant of Spanish that sounds particularly odd in
> yours).
>
> I think Smalltalk just reinforces this preference because the syntax
> works in a language like English. In a language with gender, you can't
> simply say Object new --- for example, is it Object nueva or Object
> nuevo? There is no so-called 'number' in it either. For instance, in
> English we get away with saying things like Things new, while in Spanish
> we would have to say Things nuevas (or nuevos). The huge amount of code
> written in English and with English comments basically forces you to
> learn English as well. At that point, I see little benefit in
> translating the IDE.
>
> But... this is just an opinion.
>
> Andres.
>

I share it

Nicolas

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Andre Schnoor

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Travis Griggs-3

Am 23.07.2008 um 19:44 schrieb Travis Griggs:

> On Jul 23, 2008, at 10:09 AM, Andre Schnoor wrote:
>>
>>> I appreciate any comments and perspective on this. Thanks!
>>
>> why not implement kind of a driver/middleware for each platform that
>> [...]
>
> I've said this in other forums before, so pardon my repetiveness if
> you've heard it from me before. In Colorado Camp Smalltalk (2003?),
> Claus Gittinger hooked up his Smalltalk/X image to UserFS (called FUSE
> now days). It was neat, you cd'ed to a mount point, and did an 'ls',
> you saw a bunch of directories, whose names were all the classes in
> the system. If you mkdir'ed a new directory, you got a new class. rm -
> r'd a directory removed it. cd into the directory and ls, and you see
> a bunch of files, all whose names were method names.

Ah, thanks Travis. This was new to me. Sounds really cool (and like a
lot of hard work).

I think Eliot is absolutely right: Never compromise what you're good
at. Eliot, I'm going to print a poster of it and tape it to my wall
right now.

To cite Arden's presentation at OOP 2008: "Closures!" ... "While it's
running!" That actually is the unique stuff where Smalltalk is good
at. This can hardly be perceived when working with Eclipse (at least I
have no idea how it could).

This situation reminds me of some of my own customers who keep asking
me for features they got used to by other popular products, but which
-- guess what -- are contradictory to what my product actually is all
about, what makes it unique and extraordinary. Once you lose your USP,
you're lost (so I keep resisting).

Andre
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Eliot Miranda-2

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 12:15 PM, Andre Schnoor <[hidden email]> wrote:

Am 23.07.2008 um 19:44 schrieb Travis Griggs:

> On Jul 23, 2008, at 10:09 AM, Andre Schnoor wrote:
>>
>>> I appreciate any comments and perspective on this. Thanks!
>>

>> why not implement kind of a driver/middleware for each platform that

>> [...]

>
> I've said this in other forums before, so pardon my repetiveness if
> you've heard it from me before. In Colorado Camp Smalltalk (2003?),
> Claus Gittinger hooked up his Smalltalk/X image to UserFS (called FUSE
> now days). It was neat, you cd'ed to a mount point, and did an 'ls',
> you saw a bunch of directories, whose names were all the classes in
> the system. If you mkdir'ed a new directory, you got a new class. rm -
> r'd a directory removed it. cd into the directory and ls, and you see
> a bunch of files, all whose names were method names.

Ah, thanks Travis. This was new to me. Sounds really cool (and like a
lot of hard work).

I think Eliot is absolutely right: Never compromise what you're good
at. Eliot, I'm going to print a poster of it and tape it to my wall
right now.

With apologies to the Clinton campaign, "Its the Gestalt, Stupid!" ?

It would be great to have such a slogan. The ones that come off the top of my head are weak:

Its the encapsulation, Stupid!

   Its the dynamism, Stupid!
   Its the ducks, Stupid!
   Its the message, Stupid!
   Its the objects, Stupid!

To cite Arden's presentation at OOP 2008: "Closures!" ... "While it's
running!" That actually is the unique stuff where Smalltalk is good
at. This can hardly be perceived when working with Eclipse (at least I
have no idea how it could).

This situation reminds me of some of my own customers who keep asking
me for features they got used to by other popular products, but which
-- guess what -- are contradictory to what my product actually is all
about, what makes it unique and extraordinary. Once you lose your USP,
you're lost (so I keep resisting).

+1!!

Andre

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Conrad Taylor

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Andre Schnoor

Hi, I have come to Smalltalk from other language environments. For example, I have used Xcode for Cocoa, Zend Studio Professional for PHP, and so on. Thus, I agree with Karsten. Next, Eclipse is nice but it depends on Java VM and it's much slower than other native applications in general on the platform. Smalltalk IDEs assume that you know what you need you need to know when you first approach them. However, it would be a good idea to do the following to bring clarity amongst the these IDEs:

a) add project assistants that allows you to create different types of projects from well defined starter templates. For example, gui, command line utility, Seaside,

and so on. Also, these defaults templates should be ready to run without modification.

b) just display the files within my project instead of showing me the world of the system. If I need to see the world of the system, then that option is there for me.

c) add syntax coloring and completion to the editor. Dolphin Smalltalk is a very good example of doing it right. Also, please look at other IDEs and see how they

do it.

d) add a nice gui builder. After playing with Xcode, I'm sure that it's possible to get something that's nice like that.

e) add good SCM integration to SVN, GIT, and so on.

Now, if you used other IDE for other languages, you'll find the above things most of the time. Lastly, it's not necessary for me to see every method within my class because I tend to focus on one method at any given time. Finally, it's time for Smalltalk IDEs to do some borrowing from these other IDEs and newcomers to Smalltalk to learn how to do it the Smalltalk way.

Just My 2c,

-Conrad

On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 11:49 AM, Andre Schnoor <[hidden email]> wrote:

Am 23.07.2008 um 18:47 schrieb Karsten:

> If you want to write applications with a certain programming language,
> you usually stick to the supplied editor.

Agreed. But what if you don't yet want to write applications swith
Smalltalk?

What if the Smalltalk community attempts to convince you by showcasing
Smalltalk in your favorite IDE, telling you that it's worth taking the
learning curve, because everything will be much better once you'll
throw away your favorite IDE and use Smalltalk as intended?

Andre

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Steven Kelly

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Arden Thomas

Andre Schnoor wrote:
> I think Eliot is absolutely right: Never compromise what you're good
> at. Eliot, I'm going to print a poster of it and tape it to my wall
> right now.
>
> This situation reminds me of some of my own customers who keep asking
> me for features they got used to by other popular products, but which
> -- guess what -- are contradictory to what my product actually is all
> about, what makes it unique and extraordinary. Once you lose your USP,
> you're lost (so I keep resisting).

So true. At least in the situation where you have made a new product that people didn't know they needed - à la Alan Kay, "the best way to predict the future is to invent it". If your new thing is good, it will win through in the end. Of course other people will then do watered down copies, shoehorned into the existing "standards", and make loads more money. But if you start with a new idea, then water it down, it will never even get that far.

If you want to make money, a better plan is to _start_ by asking what the market wants, rather than by inventing something amazing. The Cincom Expert Access newsletter recently recommended a book, Tuning In, all about that.
http://www.davidmeermanscott.com/books-tunedin.htm

My view is that Smalltalk had its shot at being mainstream, and failed. Very rarely do you get a second shot (or is Betamax coming back? :->). What Smalltalk did manage to do was influence other languages, slowly but surely, and it can justifiably be claimed that it has changed the world in that way. It's also much more fun for those lucky enough to be using it. Don't worry too much that you can't persuade everybody to use it. As Eliot's sig put it: "Smalltalk: scene not herd". Those who want to come and join in the fun are welcome, but we don't need to be overly concerned that many are not interested in stepping out of their comfort zone - or should I say { Comfort comfort = (Comfort) zone; }

Steve

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Eliot Miranda-2

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 1:21 PM, Steven Kelly <[hidden email]> wrote:

[snip]

As Eliot's sig put it: "Smalltalk: scene not herd". Those who want to come and join in the fun are welcome, but we don't need to be overly concerned that many are not interested in stepping out of their comfort zone - or should I say { Comfort comfort = (Comfort) zone; }

I love it! It's a tee shirt:

What's your comfort zone?

struct Comfort zone = { "I'm", "itching", "Like", "Crazy", "To", "Try", "Smalltalk" };

{ Comfort comfort = (Comfort) zone; }

Comfort zone

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marten

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Arden Thomas

When I had to switch from Smalltalk to .NET to earn money I was very sad
to leave Smalltalk. I now use VisualStudio and I'm not really that happy
about it.

- the interactivity of VisualStudio is great - but only to a specific
point. When you reach this barrier VS is still pretty fast and offers
interactivity. But VisualStudio will not reach the interactivity of any
Smalltalk IDE's I've used so far and the old edit/compile/run cycle is
there again.

- the complexity of VisualStudio is large. Yes, there are hundreds of
book out there, but actually the IDE itself is extremely complex and
offers lots of bugs. We are very often searching the Internet for
unclear things about VS and their way to manage source code.

- the large majority of developers in the MS community stick very close
to the editor they use and i also get the feeling, that they will never,
ever use a software repository like ENVY. They have Source(Un)safe, SVN
oder CVS and that's there state of the art. I heard once from a MS
newsgroup a statement like: "I want my ascii source file, where all the
stuff is in there".

- after now working for 4 years with VS I still do not understand, how
the developers can be happy with their editor possibilities. Methods can
not be grouped into categories. Methods are sorted by names only.
Private/public methods, attributes - all are mixed together and offered.

- the complexity of such a system like VS or .NET can only be managed by
introducing wizards, or code helper generators in all variations. A
thing I'm missing very much under Smalltalk, because these wizards are a
great way to improve productivity.

On the other hand I would of course expect a powerful text editing
system within a Smalltalk IDE.

And now to the point I'm really missing in ANY Smalltalk IDE:

* I want to click on my Smalltalk code in my editor and then it should
offer me all methods I can send to this selected object. That's one of
the biggest drawbacks I've seen in all Smalltalk IDE's.

I know this is possible, but it might be, that the vendors have to
rethink about the language Smalltalk itself and add some constructs to
add code meta information like an optional interface system. I'm still
wondering why all Smalltalk vendors do not put any power into this area:
an optional interface type system.

And an external editor would be of no help here and it also shows, that
the browsing possibilities are not good enough in Smalltalk IDE's
(though they are much better, than in VS).

Just some ideas,

Marten

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Andre Schnoor

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Conrad Taylor

Am 23.07.2008 um 22:09 schrieb Conrad Taylor:

> a) add project assistants that allows you to create different types
> of projects from well defined starter templates. For example, gui,
> command line utility, Seaside,
> and so on. Also, these defaults templates should be ready to
> run without modification.
>
> b) just display the files within my project instead of showing me
> the world of the system. If I need to see the world of the system,
> then that option is there for me.
>
> c) add syntax coloring and completion to the editor. Dolphin
> Smalltalk is a very good example of doing it right. Also, please
> look at other IDEs and see how they
> do it.
>
> d) add a nice gui builder. After playing with Xcode, I'm sure that
> it's possible to get something that's nice like that.
>
> e) add good SCM integration to SVN, GIT, and so on.

+1

Very nice summary indeed. IMO, if these points will be addressed,
other developers are more likely to embrace Smalltalk. Although (a) is
more difficult than one might expect, because that deployment story is
still to be told.

Andre

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Andres Valloud-6

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Conrad Taylor

Regarding coloring and autocompletion, I don't mind their presence but please make them optional.

Andres.

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Conrad Taylor
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 1:10 PM
To: VWNC List; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

a) add project assistants that allows you to create different types of projects from well defined starter templates. For example, gui, command line utility, Seaside,

and so on. Also, these defaults templates should be ready to run without modification.

b) just display the files within my project instead of showing me the world of the system. If I need to see the world of the system, then that option is there for me.

c) add syntax coloring and completion to the editor. Dolphin Smalltalk is a very good example of doing it right. Also, please look at other IDEs and see how they

do it.

d) add a nice gui builder. After playing with Xcode, I'm sure that it's possible to get something that's nice like that.

e) add good SCM integration to SVN, GIT, and so on.

Just My 2c,

-Conrad

On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 11:49 AM, Andre Schnoor <[hidden email]> wrote:

Am 23.07.2008 um 18:47 schrieb Karsten:

> If you want to write applications with a certain programming language,
> you usually stick to the supplied editor.

Agreed. But what if you don't yet want to write applications swith
Smalltalk?

What if the Smalltalk community attempts to convince you by showcasing
Smalltalk in your favorite IDE, telling you that it's worth taking the
learning curve, because everything will be much better once you'll
throw away your favorite IDE and use Smalltalk as intended?

Andre

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Andres Valloud-6

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by marten

Marten,

> I know this is possible, but it might be, that the vendors have to
rethink about the language Smalltalk itself and add some constructs to
add code meta information like an optional interface system. I'm still
wondering why all Smalltalk vendors do not put any power into this area:
an optional interface type system.

Just from a personal point of view, and only thinking about my
programming experience, I would not want to maintain the type
annotations. I try to write the least code possible, and in that case
the number of choices is often reduced enough that I can remember all of
them. In that case, I can write less code and thus make progress faster
because all the information I need is cached.

However, your mileage may vary.

Andres.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Marten Feldtmann
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 2:39 PM
To: Arden Thomas
Cc: 'VWNC List'; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

When I had to switch from Smalltalk to .NET to earn money I was very sad
to leave Smalltalk. I now use VisualStudio and I'm not really that happy
about it.

- the interactivity of VisualStudio is great - but only to a specific
point. When you reach this barrier VS is still pretty fast and offers
interactivity. But VisualStudio will not reach the interactivity of any
Smalltalk IDE's I've used so far and the old edit/compile/run cycle is
there again.

- the complexity of VisualStudio is large. Yes, there are hundreds of
book out there, but actually the IDE itself is extremely complex and
offers lots of bugs. We are very often searching the Internet for
unclear things about VS and their way to manage source code.

- the large majority of developers in the MS community stick very close
to the editor they use and i also get the feeling, that they will never,
ever use a software repository like ENVY. They have Source(Un)safe, SVN
oder CVS and that's there state of the art. I heard once from a MS
newsgroup a statement like: "I want my ascii source file, where all the
stuff is in there".

- after now working for 4 years with VS I still do not understand, how
the developers can be happy with their editor possibilities. Methods can
not be grouped into categories. Methods are sorted by names only.
Private/public methods, attributes - all are mixed together and offered.

- the complexity of such a system like VS or .NET can only be managed by
introducing wizards, or code helper generators in all variations. A
thing I'm missing very much under Smalltalk, because these wizards are a
great way to improve productivity.

On the other hand I would of course expect a powerful text editing
system within a Smalltalk IDE.

And now to the point I'm really missing in ANY Smalltalk IDE:

* I want to click on my Smalltalk code in my editor and then it should
offer me all methods I can send to this selected object. That's one of
the biggest drawbacks I've seen in all Smalltalk IDE's.

I know this is possible, but it might be, that the vendors have to
rethink about the language Smalltalk itself and add some constructs to
add code meta information like an optional interface system. I'm still
wondering why all Smalltalk vendors do not put any power into this area:

an optional interface type system.

And an external editor would be of no help here and it also shows, that
the browsing possibilities are not good enough in Smalltalk IDE's
(though they are much better, than in VS).

Just some ideas,

Marten

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Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs (SNN)

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Andres Valloud-6

Aren’t they already? AutoComplete and RBCodeHighlighting.

-Boris

--
+1.604.689.0322
DeepCove Labs Ltd.
4th floor 595 Howe Street
Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5
http://tinyurl.com/r7uw4

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From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Valloud, Andres
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 2:48 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

Regarding coloring and autocompletion, I don't mind their presence but please make them optional.

Andres.

a) add project assistants that allows you to create different types of projects from well defined starter templates. For example, gui, command line utility, Seaside,

and so on. Also, these defaults templates should be ready to run without modification.

b) just display the files within my project instead of showing me the world of the system. If I need to see the world of the system, then that option is there for me.

c) add syntax coloring and completion to the editor. Dolphin Smalltalk is a very good example of doing it right. Also, please look at other IDEs and see how they

do it.

d) add a nice gui builder. After playing with Xcode, I'm sure that it's possible to get something that's nice like that.

e) add good SCM integration to SVN, GIT, and so on.

Just My 2c,

-Conrad

On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 11:49 AM, Andre Schnoor <[hidden email]> wrote:

Am 23.07.2008 um 18:47 schrieb Karsten:

> If you want to write applications with a certain programming language,
> you usually stick to the supplied editor.

Agreed. But what if you don't yet want to write applications swith
Smalltalk?

What if the Smalltalk community attempts to convince you by showcasing
Smalltalk in your favorite IDE, telling you that it's worth taking the
learning curve, because everything will be much better once you'll
throw away your favorite IDE and use Smalltalk as intended?

Andre

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Arden Thomas

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Steven Kelly

Hi Steven;

You could be right at not getting a second shot.

But I am hoping that, since, Smalltalk was far enough ahead of its time the
first time, the second time will be the charm. :-)

Even if we were not able to become a truly mainstream language, I'd like to
be a bigger niche player. Still plenty of room to grow!

Arden

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Steven Kelly
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 4:22 PM
To: VWNC List
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

Andre Schnoor wrote:
> I think Eliot is absolutely right: Never compromise what you're good
> at. Eliot, I'm going to print a poster of it and tape it to my wall
> right now.
>
> This situation reminds me of some of my own customers who keep asking
> me for features they got used to by other popular products, but which
> -- guess what -- are contradictory to what my product actually is all
> about, what makes it unique and extraordinary. Once you lose your USP,
> you're lost (so I keep resisting).

So true. At least in the situation where you have made a new product that
people didn't know they needed - à la Alan Kay, "the best way to predict the
future is to invent it". If your new thing is good, it will win through in
the end. Of course other people will then do watered down copies, shoehorned
into the existing "standards", and make loads more money. But if you start
with a new idea, then water it down, it will never even get that far.

If you want to make money, a better plan is to _start_ by asking what the
market wants, rather than by inventing something amazing. The Cincom Expert
Access newsletter recently recommended a book, Tuning In, all about that.
http://www.davidmeermanscott.com/books-tunedin.htm

My view is that Smalltalk had its shot at being mainstream, and failed. Very
rarely do you get a second shot (or is Betamax coming back? :->). What
Smalltalk did manage to do was influence other languages, slowly but surely,
and it can justifiably be claimed that it has changed the world in that way.
It's also much more fun for those lucky enough to be using it. Don't worry
too much that you can't persuade everybody to use it. As Eliot's sig put it:
"Smalltalk: scene not herd". Those who want to come and join in the fun are
welcome, but we don't need to be overly concerned that many are not
interested in stepping out of their comfort zone - or should I say { Comfort
comfort = (Comfort) zone; }

Steve

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Andres Valloud-6

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs (SNN)

Boris,

I thought the request was to integrate them so they work by default and out of the box. In that case, then please make them optional :). Sorry for the confusion!

Andres.

From: Boris Popov [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 2:58 PM
To: Valloud, Andres; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

Aren’t they already? AutoComplete and RBCodeHighlighting.

Regarding coloring and autocompletion, I don't mind their presence but please make them optional.

Andres.

a) add project assistants that allows you to create different types of projects from well defined starter templates. For example, gui, command line utility, Seaside,

and so on. Also, these defaults templates should be ready to run without modification.

b) just display the files within my project instead of showing me the world of the system. If I need to see the world of the system, then that option is there for me.

c) add syntax coloring and completion to the editor. Dolphin Smalltalk is a very good example of doing it right. Also, please look at other IDEs and see how they

do it.

d) add a nice gui builder. After playing with Xcode, I'm sure that it's possible to get something that's nice like that.

e) add good SCM integration to SVN, GIT, and so on.

Just My 2c,

-Conrad

On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 11:49 AM, Andre Schnoor <[hidden email]> wrote:

Am 23.07.2008 um 18:47 schrieb Karsten:

> If you want to write applications with a certain programming language,
> you usually stick to the supplied editor.

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jWarrior

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Arden Thomas

Arden Thomas wrote:

> Hi Steven;
>
> You could be right at not getting a second shot.
>
> But I am hoping that, since, Smalltalk was far enough ahead of its time the
> first time, the second time will be the charm. :-)
>
> Even if we were not able to become a truly mainstream language, I'd like to
> be a bigger niche player. Still plenty of room to grow!
>
> Arden
>

These discussions (If only Smalltalk had X, then the world would come
running) have a whiff of desperation about them. And they remind me of
Kent Beck telling his audience at Smalltalk Solutions in 1997 or 1998,
"Face it. You've lost. Java's won!".

We've had trouble getting some ex-jWarriors to return to the project;
some think there is just no future in the Smalltalk . I think Steven is
right that Smalltalk missed its first shot at the mainstream and won't
be getting a second one, but Arden is right too that the niche could be
grown bigger. Maybe GLASS will be the killer app.

This is all so depressing. I think I'm gonna go launch some missiles.

Donald

[ jWarrior ]

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Conrad Taylor

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Andres Valloud-6

Hi Boris, I was talking about an out of the box solution similar to Dolphin Smalltalk. Yes, this should be a feature than can be turned off. Lastly, AutoComplete and RBCodeHighlighting just didn't do it for me. I'm looking for something at the level of Dolphin Smalltalk intellisense autocompletion.

-Conrad

On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 3:02 PM, Valloud, Andres <[hidden email]> wrote:

Boris,

I thought the request was to integrate them so they work by default and out of the box. In that case, then please make them optional :). Sorry for the confusion!

Andres.

From: Boris Popov [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 2:58 PM
To: Valloud, Andres; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

Aren't they already? AutoComplete and RBCodeHighlighting.

-Boris

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Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5
http://tinyurl.com/r7uw4

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From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Valloud, Andres
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 2:48 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

Regarding coloring and autocompletion, I don't mind their presence but please make them optional.

Andres.

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Conrad Taylor
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 1:10 PM
To: VWNC List; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

Hi, I have come to Smalltalk from other language environments. For example, I have used Xcode for Cocoa, Zend Studio Professional for PHP, and so on. Thus, I agree with Karsten. Next, Eclipse is nice but it depends on Java VM and it's much slower than other native applications in general on the platform. Smalltalk IDEs assume that you know what you need you need to know when you first approach them. However, it would be a good idea to do the following to bring clarity amongst the these IDEs:

a) add project assistants that allows you to create different types of projects from well defined starter templates. For example, gui, command line utility, Seaside,

and so on. Also, these defaults templates should be ready to run without modification.

b) just display the files within my project instead of showing me the world of the system. If I need to see the world of the system, then that option is there for me.

c) add syntax coloring and completion to the editor. Dolphin Smalltalk is a very good example of doing it right. Also, please look at other IDEs and see how they

do it.

d) add a nice gui builder. After playing with Xcode, I'm sure that it's possible to get something that's nice like that.

e) add good SCM integration to SVN, GIT, and so on.

Now, if you used other IDE for other languages, you'll find the above things most of the time. Lastly, it's not necessary for me to see every method within my class because I tend to focus on one method at any given time. Finally, it's time for Smalltalk IDEs to do some borrowing from these other IDEs and newcomers to Smalltalk to learn how to do it the Smalltalk way.

Just My 2c,

-Conrad

On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 11:49 AM, Andre Schnoor <[hidden email]> wrote:

Am 23.07.2008 um 18:47 schrieb Karsten:

> If you want to write applications with a certain programming language,
> you usually stick to the supplied editor.

Agreed. But what if you don't yet want to write applications swith
Smalltalk?

What if the Smalltalk community attempts to convince you by showcasing
Smalltalk in your favorite IDE, telling you that it's worth taking the
learning curve, because everything will be much better once you'll
throw away your favorite IDE and use Smalltalk as intended?

Andre

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Andres Valloud-6

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by jWarrior

Donald,

If you look here,

http://www.dc.uba.ar/events/smalltalks/2007/presentaciones/Smalltalk2007
_PPT_CIDESO.pps

then you will see what the Army of Argentina thinks of Smalltalk... for
example, and paraphrasing somewhat,

"It is easy to learn. For newcomers that did not know Smalltalk, they
became contributors within 80 hours. If they did know Smalltalk, in 40
hours."

Andres.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Donald MacQueen
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 4:46 PM
To: Arden Thomas
Cc: 'VWNC List'
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

Arden Thomas wrote:

> Hi Steven;
>
> You could be right at not getting a second shot.
>
> But I am hoping that, since, Smalltalk was far enough ahead of its
> time the first time, the second time will be the charm. :-)
>
> Even if we were not able to become a truly mainstream language, I'd
> like to be a bigger niche player. Still plenty of room to grow!
>
> Arden
>

Antony Blakey-2

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Arden Thomas

Arden,

I've done this, and it works. It's also possible to get a lot more
advantages that just using your favorite editor, although my
implementation doesn't interop with Store, because I was explicitly
trying to replace Store.

I've also done FUSE integration with VW, and while I had it working
and deployed, it was a PITA because on OSX at least it really pushes
the threaded callback mechanism, and it's very chatty. Also it's
difficult to deploy on Linux because of a bug in the external library
load mechanism that Cincom engineering have declared they won't fix
because the function that needs to be called isn't POSIX i.e. it's
Linux/Solaris specific.

However, I don't think you need to do what you suggest to improve your
appeal to other language/environment users. I've been looking at two
different issues recently, which address the relative poverty of the
ST UI compared to other modern environments.

1. How to provide a file-like view that isn't actually a file view,
within VW. I've started implementation of a view that looks like a
whole-of-class file, but where each method/var etc is an editable
object that implements an editor. The interface is modeless (like
Vasillis work) and provides all the benefits of text files but with no
disruption to the rest of VW. It can be added to VW with no changes to
Store, or the change set mechanism, or other tools. It also DOESN'T
abandon the idea of the method-at-a-time editing and is basically a
different way of navigating and presenting the content provided in the
RB. I've done this sort of work before, partly in an academic context,
and I know how to do it. Think of it as a pivot of the RB.

2. A much better way of managing keyboard interaction and command
execution, based largely on the Textmate model. Textmate is a text
editor that uses GUI facilities (specifically, a keyboard command
invocation mechanism) that provides a much-faster-than-text-or-the-
mouse way of editing text and controlling the application. This is in
response to Michael's post about the virtues of text for pragmas of
the basis of editing convenience i.e. 'typing is quicker that using a
drop down menu'. I'm working on an implementation as we speak, and I
may blog about it, but paying-client work is pressing me to stop.

3. Providing a richer model of interaction than text by exposing the
fundamental Object-ness of the metamodel. This is less advanced in
planning because it seems more obvious to me how to do it, and it's
partly covered by the file-like view. Imagine being able to C/C/P or
operate on any object directly, and being able to 'print' an object to
e.g. the transcript and have it be live so that you could C/C/P it to
any other view, or inspect it directly. However, this doesn't directly
address your question.

I'd love to talk about any of these at more length, but maybe in a
lower-latency channel?

The VW UI is way outdated, but it can be greatly improved without
rewriting any core technology and without breaking anything. It's
also cheap to do. It can be done in a way that is isolated from the
legacy-users problem. IMO this is what will increase the appeal to
other developers. You don't need to abandon the Smalltalk way.

On 23/07/2008, at 11:52 PM, Arden Thomas wrote:

> - If we made it so that you could write Smalltalk code in your
> favorite editor, would that be a bridge to help you become
> acquainted with Smalltalk?
>
> - Second, would the comfort it brings overcome losing the power that
> the integration currently gives you? (hard question for non-
> Smalltalkers)

Antony Blakey
--------------------------
CTO, Linkuistics Pty Ltd
Ph: 0438 840 787

Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success.
-- Albert Schweitzer

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Colin Putney

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by jWarrior

On 23-Jul-08, at 4:45 PM, Donald MacQueen wrote:

> This is all so depressing. I think I'm gonna go launch some missiles.

Depressing? It's exciting! This is a great time to be a Smalltalker.
The mainstream is overrated.

As far as integrating with external text editors to gain marketshare,
I say don't bother. Instead, put some effort into fixing the text
editor you've got. For example, I find it very, very frustrating
without NoCutDelete and WindowsFaithfulPaste installed. The
conventions around selection, cut and paste are near-universal, and VW
violates them for no reason that I can see. In fact, adhering to
broader conventions would be generally good. Ctrl-F inserts
'ifFalse:'... WTF? There's no visual indicator when a method is dirty.
Command keys are inconsistent between context menus and the text pane.
Really important commands, like "senders" have obscure short-cuts,
while really convenient short cuts, like Ctrl-F, are reserved for
obscure functionality.

With a list of issues that goes on and on, is it any wonder that
newcomers miss emacs/vi/TextMate/NotePad?

Colin
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davidbuck

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Arden Thomas

For non-Smalltalkers, there are many things about Smalltalk that make them nervous. There's the image, the IDE, source code that's not in files, unfamiliar editors, the non C-style syntax and the dynamic typing.

I think it's a mistake to try to lure non-Smalltalk developers in using a bait and switch approach. If you're going to make changes, make changes that even seasoned Smalltalk developers would use.

First, let's take the image. It should be broken into two images - the development image and the system under development. The system under development could be on the same computer or a different computer connected by a network. This way, the development tools aren't embedded into the same system as the runtime. This will help alleviate concerns from non-Smalltalkers that the tools are in the same image as your code.

As for editors, the Smalltalk editor itself could be much improved. You should be able to bind keys to operations and have pre-built bindings for emacs-style or vi-style editors. Why can't we have an easy "move backward by one word" key? Would it be so hard to support keyboard macros? The argument is often made that Smalltalk code doesn't need it, but I don't but it. There are many times when I could use a better editor.

There's lots of room for improvement right within the Smalltalk environment that would not only make non-Smalltalkers more comfortable but would also be beneficial to Smalltalkers as well.

David Buck
Simberon Inc.
www.simberon.com

Arden Thomas wrote:

Hi folks;

I posted a question to my blog; Question for developers , about developers from other languages trying Smalltalk.

The quote from David Mertz is:

"I am very ambivalent about the imposed GUI/development environment/interpreter that Smalltalk (Squeak specifically in the tutorial) imposes on you. Smalltalk code focuses on ultra-short methods that really require the Smalltalk environment to browse and develop. I still feel a purity in separating my text editor from anything about the underlying language mechanisms. Smalltalk/Squeak is as far from that as it is possible to get: think Eclipse on steroids, and without any close button."

This, from my perspective, is one of those familiarity/comfort questions.

So, my question to the community but more so to any developer considering Smalltalk:

- If we made it so that you could write Smalltalk code in your favorite editor, would that be a bridge to help you become acquainted with Smalltalk?

- Second, would the comfort it brings overcome losing the power that the integration currently gives you? (hard question for non-Smalltalkers)

I appreciate any comments and perspective on this. Thanks!

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, and the impossible, possible
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Peter Hatch

Re: [vwnc] Developers from other languages trying Smalltalk

In reply to this post by Antony Blakey-2

On Jul 23, 2008, at 7:49 PM, Antony Blakey wrote:

> Also it's difficult to deploy on Linux because of a bug in the
> external library load mechanism that Cincom engineering have
> declared they won't fix because the function that needs to be called
> isn't POSIX i.e. it's Linux/Solaris specific.

Antony,

I assume that in this statement "Cincom engineering" is a euphemism
for "Peter Hatch", and I'm not sure why you didn't just say that
because I'm the one that replied to your original suggestion about
providing a pragma VI interface for specifying ELF symbol versioning
identifiers on [at least] Solaris and Linux.

This is not a bug in any standard usage of the term.

The required OS API is very simply available via normal DLLCC
mechanisms, as you already know.

I never, in any communication, "declared" that I "won't fix it." I
stated that the semantics of what was requested were not clear, that
the mechanism was of seemingly slight utility outside of very narrow
edge cases, and that a VI-based solution exists.

POSIX had nothing to do with my argument. If I rejected DLLCC-related
things due to lack of POSIX compliance, then there wouldn't even be an
external callout mechanism for HPUX, Mac OS X, or Windows. The
argument pivoted on the "narrow edge case" issue and my concerns about
the general lack of acknowledgement in our current DLLCC
implementation of the distinction between the compilation context and
the execution context for C compilation units.

I'm sorry if my previous communications were unclear on these points.
I only responded to this because it was a mischaracterization of the
response you received from Cincom engineering (I can only speak for
engineering...).

Sincerely,
pete

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