where to get "Sources" for squeak 3.10

Greetings,

I am trying to download Squeak 3.10 and according to
http://squeak.org/Download/

" ... you have to download three files individually: the Virtual
Machine, the Image file and the Sources file. "


I have the VM and I have an Image file but where do I get the Sources
file for 3.10??

Thanks for any help you can provide,
Frank

The Sources for 3.10 are the same as the ones for 3.9:
ftp://ftp.ofset.org/squeak/squeak-dev/SqueakV39.sources

2007/12/10, Squeaker <[hidden email]>:

--
Damien Cassou

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 08:04:24 +0100, Damien Cassou wrote:

We need to fix the download page.

http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=6790

Chris

Chris Kassopulo wrote: Ok,
I'll look into it
Karl

I have updated the http://www.squeak.org/Download page.
What do you think ?

Karl

Karl wrote:

On Dec 10, 2007 10:32 AM, Karl <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I have updated the http://www.squeak.org/Download page.
> What do you think ?
>
> Karl
>
>

Karl,

Having read a number of newbie comments in the lists and on IRC
recently, I think one on-going source of confusion for new starters
with Squeak is how to install it, and what they've installed - new
users download "something" and then agitated when it "doesn't work" or
doesn't behave in the same way as their tutorial says it should.
Reading the download page, I think it's possible to make this a little
clearer by expanding the text at the top of the page, before
instructing readers to start downloading.

I've tried putting together a concise but clear explanation below.
What do you think?

Michael

===Download===

To use Squeak, you need to have three things:
- the VM (Virtual Machine) for your operating system. This is the
executable that allows Squeak code to run identically on many
platforms.
- the Sources file. Sources are used when viewing source code; you can
use Squeak without it, but you will not see variable names, version
history and comments!
- an Image file. This holds all the code that you will use and
develop; there are many Image files available, and you can install and
run many different images with the same VM and Sources files.

If you are new to Squeak you can just download the latest stable
release from the download box on the right.

If you are following a tutorial[[link to tutorials page]] or other
reference work, this may rely on you working with a specific image.
You can do so by copying the recommended image into your squeak
directory and double-clicking to launch it.

While your download is in progress you might want to have a look at
the Installation page which contains links to platform specific
installation instructions.

Hello Michael,

3.9 is the only one which can do without a changes file which will
change as soon as we will have an official 3.9.1.

So in this light and not confusing the newbies you are right.

But already the part about possibly needing another image to follow a
tutorial will not do without a changes file.

Trying to combine these informations in a single text I end up with
something I would not want to present to newbies.

So I'd suggest writing a text about the usual 4 files and adding that
_only_ standard 3.9 will come without changes and create them as soon
as necessary.

And double click on the image doesn't work in Win.

Otherwise I'm all for it.

See my attempt below. And somebody please verify I'm right about the
changes.

Cheers

Herbert                            mailto:[hidden email]

> ===Download===
>
> To use Squeak, you need to have three things:
... have four .....
> - the VM (Virtual Machine) for your operating system. This is the
> executable that allows Squeak code to run identically on many
> platforms.
> - the Sources file. Sources are used when viewing source code; you can
> use Squeak without it, but you will not see variable names, version
> history and comments!
> - an Image file. This holds all the code that you will use and
> develop; there are many Image files available, and you can install and
> run many different images with the same VM and Sources files.
- a changes file. Changes are used to record every change to the
image since the creation of the sources file, including your changes.
Changes and Image always have to come in pairs. Only the standard 3.9
distribution will come without a changes file. Squeak will create it
on the first change you make.
>
> If you are new to Squeak you can just download the latest stable
> release from the download box on the right.
>
> If you are following a tutorial[[link to tutorials page]] or other
> reference work, this may rely on you working with a specific image.
> You can do so by copying the recommended image into your squeak
... the recommended image _plus_ the accompanying changes into .....
> directory and double-clicking to launch it.
directory and drag it on the VM to launch it.
>
> While your download is in progress you might want to have a look at
> the Installation page which contains links to platform specific
> installation instructions.

Here's my shot at it:

===WHAT IS NEEDED===

To use Squeak, you need to have four things:

- a VM (Virtual Machine) for your operating system
  This is the executable program that allows Squeak code to run
  on your platform.

- a Sources file that matches your VM
  Squeak will run without sources but you won't be able to browse
  the code.

- an Image file that provides the Squeak "personality"
  The image together with the changes file holds the objects that
  you will use and develop.

- a Changes file that matches your image
  The changes file is used to record every change to the image since
  the creation of the sources file, including your changes. It is
  always paired with its image except..?
 
===HOW TO GET IT===

If you are new to Squeak and are on Windows or Mac, it is easiest to
install the latest stable release from the download box on the right.
They are complete packages that contain everything needed for Squeak.

If you are on another platform or need to use another image, you will
need to download three files:

- a VM (Virtual Machine) for your operating system
- a Sources file that matches your VM
- an Image and Changes file package

Chris

PS - The "Others" button in the Download box should go away.

Looks pretty good.
A few things


Chris Kassopulo wrote: To run some old images the newest vm will not work...
If someone wants to check up on that I'll make a subsection or a page on
the wiki.
> - a Sources file that matches your VM
>   Squeak will run without sources but you won't be able to browse
>   the code.
>  
Hm, sources does not have to match the vm but the image.

We can also mention the preference to not warn if the sourec and changes
not are present.

Karl

Hello Chris,

in general, I feel that you try to simplify so far that you are partly
telling things that are plain wrong. As a person who is the authority
when a helpdesk found its limits I can tell you it's no option to tell
a customer (and newbies are just that) something that can be proven
wrong.

Details below.
CK> ===WHAT IS NEEDED===

CK> To use Squeak, you need to have four things:

CK> - a VM (Virtual Machine) for your operating system
CK>   This is the executable program that allows Squeak code to run
CK>   on your platform.

CK> - a Sources file that matches your VM
CK>   Squeak will run without sources but you won't be able to browse
CK>   the code.
This is an oversimplification and imo plain wrong. It will just spawn
the next discussion.

CK> - an Image file that provides the Squeak "personality"
CK>   The image together with the changes file holds the objects that
CK>   you will use and develop.
Also easily proven wrong. You can use and develop objects without a
changes file.


CK> - a Changes file that matches your image
CK>   The changes file is used to record every change to the image since
CK>   the creation of the sources file, including your changes. It is
CK>   always paired with its image except..?
 
CK> ===HOW TO GET IT===

CK> If you are new to Squeak and are on Windows or Mac, it is easiest to
CK> install the latest stable release from the download box on the right.
CK> They are complete packages that contain everything needed for Squeak.

CK> If you are on another platform or need to use another image, you will
CK> need to download three files:

CK> - a VM (Virtual Machine) for your operating system
CK> - a Sources file that matches your VM
CK> - an Image and Changes file package

CK> Chris

CK> PS - The "Others" button in the Download box should go away.
 

Cheers,

Herbert                            mailto:[hidden email]

Hello Chris,

sorry I forgot to mention:

Your version is shorter, which is a Quality we should strive for.


Cheers,

Herbert                            mailto:[hidden email]

Herbert König wrote: I updated the download page again. What do you guys think ?
http://www.squeak.org/Download/

Karl

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 19:41:39 +0100, Karl wrote:

I like it.

Chris

On Dec 10, 2007 1:03 PM, Herbert König <[hidden email]> wrote: Good point!

> Trying to combine these informations in a single text I end up with
> something I would not want to present to newbies.
>
> So I'd suggest writing a text about the usual 4 files and adding that
> _only_ standard 3.9 will come without changes and create them as soon
> as necessary.
>
> And double click on the image doesn't work in Win.
>

Ah, my mistake. Perhaps it's best to remove that reference, as it's
already covered in the Installation page.

> Otherwise I'm all for it.
>
> See my attempt below. And somebody please verify I'm right about the
> changes.
>

The page looks a lot clearer now, but perhaps the Changes bullet point
could be improved - how about:

Changes file. The changes file holds the amendments caused to the
Sources as you create classes, develop new versions of methods and
execute code. Most images you use will have a changes file associated
with them; this changes file must be in the same directory as the
image file.


Thanks to everyone who improved on my first attempt today!

>>>>> "Michael" == Michael Davies <[hidden email]> writes:

Michael> Changes file. The changes file holds the amendments caused to the
Michael> Sources as you create classes, develop new versions of methods and
Michael> execute code. Most images you use will have a changes file associated
Michael> with them; this changes file must be in the same directory as the
Michael> image file.

    ... and named like the image file.  For example, "a.image" would have
    "a.changes" with it, while "b.image" would have "b.changes" associated with
    it, and so on.

Or something like that.


--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

Michael Davies wrote: Double clicking works on my windows box... But the suffix policy on
windows suck, and you have to set it yourself maybe  :-(
Maybe a few tips could be added to the installation page, like: right
click on image, choose 'open with...' and browse to the SqueakVM, check
the option 'always use this program'

(I don't have a English/American system so I don't know the exact
wording for those menu items and options.)
I'll update the changes part

Karl

Randal L. Schwartz wrote: Good point.
I'll add that.
Awaiting complaints about the page being to verbose :-)

Karl

On Dec 10, 2007 9:00 PM, karl <[hidden email]> wrote:
...
> Good point.
> I'll add that.
> Awaiting complaints about the page being to verbose :-)
>
> Karl
>
>

How about just a slight re-wording then:

Most images you use will have a similarly-named changes file associated...(etc)

On Tuesday 11 December 2007 12:11 am, Karl wrote:
> I updated the download page again. What do you guys think ?
> http://www.squeak.org/Download/
Karl

The new page is much better. How about the following tweaks for the sake of
newbies? That an image file is platform-independent is not obvious to
newbies. Feel free to edit these into shape.

--------------------
You need to have an interpreter program (known as the Virtual Machine) and a
data file (known as an Image file).

Squeak VM is an interpreter program, specific to an operating system, that
runs Image files. It consists of an executable and one or more extentions
(called VMplugins) that extend its functionality. A VM can interpret images
created on other operating systems. It can even run within a web-browser!

Image file is a data file that holds all of the objects you create and use, in
a platform-independent format. Most people start off by inheriting
pre-configured Image files rather than create their own from scratch.
-----------------------

Subbu

On Mon, Dec 10, 2007 at 10:00:18PM +0100, karl wrote:
> I'll add that.
> Awaiting complaints about the page being to verbose :-)

Karl,

Not at all. It's clear, friendly and well-written.

Dave