[ANN] Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha
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Re: [ANN] Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha
 
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> On 28.05.2018, at 00:50, Chris Muller <[hidden email]> wrote: > >>> >>> Unfortunately, the pre-release VM has the bug described in issue #260: https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm/issues/260 .> >> >> Yea, i haven't had the time to fix that one. >> It's actually a plugin not the vm per se… > > ... IMO, it's a non-starter to include a newer VM in 5.2 release if it > means this plugin will be broken. No, It means that the plugin (apparently, I have not reproduced) - cannot be built on ubuntu 14.04 - cannot be use on 14.04 with the plugin from travis. Although being an LTS, 14.04 is four years old (and goes out of maitenance in a year…) its a special config, debians around that time still used 0.9-whatever. I think its a fix that takes around 2 hours, +/- time for settiung up the OS. I don't have those 2 hours atm. Most users will be fine… -t |
Re: [ANN] Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha
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In reply to this post by marcel.taeumel
Hi Marcel,
What I find depressing is that we don't have a process that promotes stable VMs to a Pam e where they are easily downloaded. People are still using the 2016 VMs. This is broken.
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Re: [ANN] Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha
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In reply to this post by bpi
Hi Bernhard,
> On May 27, 2018, at 3:42 AM, Bernhard Pieber <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Hi Eliot, > > I feel your pain. My I ask, what was your process for deciding that a VM is a stable one on http://www.mirandabanda.org/files/Cog/VM/ before the switch to GitHub? Could this old process be used on GitHub as well and if not, why not? We never really got to the point of having a process as just as we were talking about adding stable links we switched over to GitHub. And we had no CI infrastructure back then. Given that tests for bugs like the compaction snapshot issue are hard to write and bite only with large images I think something semiautomatic, where the CI proposes candidates and then we decide based on longevity and bug reports which ones to promote might work. At least we can automate the packaging and deployment of a candidate once identified. > > Thanks for your terrific work on the VMs! > > Best, > Bernhard > >> Am 27.05.2018 um 10:06 schrieb Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>: >> >> Hi, >> >>> On May 26, 2018, at 2:02 PM, Fabio Niephaus <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 6:40 PM Bernhard Pieber <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> So it was just race condition. :-) >>> >>> Thank you for fixing the upload! >>> >>> I saw that the 5.2alpha build contains the VM with the version 201804030952, which is not the latest version on Bintray (and interestingly is not even in the versions list on https://bintray.com/opensmalltalk/vm/cog). >>> >>> The VMs on Bintray are removed after a few weeks to save storage costs. More importantly, these VMs are considered bleeding edge and I don't think it's a good idea to test a bleeding edge Squeak image with a bleeding edge VM. If something is broken, it can be really hard to tell if the problem is in the VM or in the image. >>> The VMs that ship with the current 5.2alpha builds are from the latest VM pre-release which you can find at [1]. Unfortunately, the latest stable VM release [2] is from 2016. >> >> This is so depressing. What's the process by which a stable VM release is made? That process is broken. We have to fix it. 2016?!?! >> >>> Fabio >>> >>> [1] https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm/releases/tag/201804030952 >>> [2] https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm/releases/latest >>> >>> >>> >>> Should testing happen with this VM or with the latest from Bintray? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Bernhard >>> >>>> Am 26.05.2018 um 16:58 schrieb Fabio Niephaus <[hidden email]>: >>>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> TravisCI just generated the first set of 5.2alpha artifacts including updated VMs which are now available at [1]. This URL actually links to the same folder you can find at [2]. >>>> Although recent TravisCI builds have passed, this folder was empty because of an issue with the updater which Marcel and I just resolved. >>>> Therefore, all new artifacts are now uploaded to the 5.2alpha directory and should show up at [1]/[2]. >>>> >>>> Happy testing! >>>> >>>> Fabio >>>> >>>> [1] http://files.squeak.org/trunk/ >>>> [2] http://files.squeak.org/5.2alpha/ >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 1:20 PM H. Hirzel <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> Hi Bernard >>>> >>>> A solution which works well for the meantime is to take early May download from >>>> >>>> http://files.squeak.org/6.0alpha/ >>>> >>>> And update from within the image. >>>> >>>> One of the updates is the rename to 5.2alpha. The result is attached. >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> --Hannes >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 5/26/18, Bernhard Pieber <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I wanted to get a current trunk image to help testing the new release. >>>>> Normally, I go to http://squeak.org/downloads/ and click the trunk link >>>>> http://files.squeak.org/trunk/. This leads to an empty directory. I guess >>>>> this might be an unintended consquence of the rename. >>>>> >>>>> Are you going to rename the folder and files in >>>>> http://files.squeak.org/6.0alpha/ as well? >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Bernhard >>>>> >>>>>> Am 24.05.2018 um 10:44 schrieb Marcel Taeumel <[hidden email]>: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi, there. >>>>>> >>>>>> We are going to change the current version number of the Trunk to >>>>>> "5.2alpha" to denote our plans for the upcoming Squeak release. After >>>>>> several discussions within the board and with our release manager Edgar, >>>>>> we came to conclusion that it makes sense to postpone the "6.0" a little >>>>>> bit to finish some bigger concerns such as the use of ephemerons and Etoys >>>>>> clean-up. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Marcel > > |
Re: [ANN] Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha
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In reply to this post by fniephaus
Making it easier to find and download new VM builds should be a priority. It's quite hard to find a recent VM following links from squeak.org Best, Karl On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 2:52 PM, Fabio Niephaus <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: [ANN] Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha
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Is it? The Downloads page[1] has a Virtual Machines section with all the
links you need. I think it would help if there were some information given about what VM you need to download for your platform, but if you know that, then those links should be sufficient. Levente [1] https://squeak.org/downloads/ On Tue, 29 May 2018, karl ramberg wrote: > Making it easier to find and download new VM builds should be a priority.It's quite hard to find a recent VM following links from squeak.org > > Best, > Karl > > > On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 2:52 PM, Fabio Niephaus <[hidden email]> wrote: > > On Sun, 27 May 2018 at 12:57 pm, Bernhard Pieber <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi Fabio! > > Thanks for the information. I will test using the pre-release version. > > What is strange then is that far older versions than 201804030952 are still available on Bintray. > > It would be good to have this descriptions on Bintray maybe with a link to the GitHub releases page. On the main GitHub page there are links to the stable release and to the bleeding edge > versions. Maybe a link to the latest pre-release should be added? > > > Yes, we should extend the docs. Up until recently, I've always seen the Bintray artifacts as something vm-dev people need, but it turns out that there are some users downloading these artifacts as well. > > We could promote the pre-release to be a proper release, then the link would automatically point to it. Instead of manually adding a link to pre-releases, I'd much rather like us to fix the release > process. > > Fabio > > > > > Bernhard > > > Am 26.05.2018 um 23:02 schrieb Fabio Niephaus <[hidden email]>: > > > >> On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 6:40 PM Bernhard Pieber <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> > >> I saw that the 5.2alpha build contains the VM with the version 201804030952, which is not the latest version on Bintray (and interestingly is not even in the versions list on > https://bintray.com/opensmalltalk/vm/cog). > >> > > The VMs on Bintray are removed after a few weeks to save storage costs. More importantly, these VMs are considered bleeding edge and I don't think it's a good idea to test a bleeding edge > Squeak image with a bleeding edge VM. If something is broken, it can be really hard to tell if the problem is in the VM or in the image. > > The VMs that ship with the current 5.2alpha builds are from the latest VM pre-release which you can find at [1]. Unfortunately, the latest stable VM release [2] is from 2016. > > > > Fabio > > > > [1] https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm/releases/tag/201804030952 > > [2] https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm/releases/latest > > > >> > >> Should testing happen with this VM or with the latest from Bintray? > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Bernhard > > > > > > > |
Re: [ANN] Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha
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In reply to this post by Karl Ramberg
Sent from my iPhone
All in one should have the most stable and recent Edgar |
Re: [ANN] Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha
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> On 30.05.2018, at 01:40, Edgar De Cleene <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 29 May 2018, at 15:42, karl ramberg <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> Making it easier to find and download new VM builds should be a priority. >> It's quite hard to find a recent VM following links from squeak.org >> >> Best, >> Karl > > This scared beginners > All in one should have the most stable and recent Let's face it: the All-in-ones are dead. Apple makes it harder than ever and for linux we should have start building platform packages long ago. Best regards -Tobias > > Edgar >> > |
All-In-One distribution (was: Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha)
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On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 07:22:28AM +0200, Tobias Pape wrote:
> > > On 30.05.2018, at 01:40, Edgar De Cleene <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > > On 29 May 2018, at 15:42, karl ramberg <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > >> Making it easier to find and download new VM builds should be a priority. > >> It's quite hard to find a recent VM following links from squeak.org > >> > > This scared beginners > > All in one should have the most stable and recent > > Let's face it: the All-in-ones are dead. > Apple makes it harder than ever and for linux we should have start building platform packages long ago. > This topic deserves a new subject line, and it would be great to get some more input regarding who prefers using the All-In-One distribution for regular use, versus other approaches for organizing their image and VM. My personal view is that the All-In-One is a valuable enhancement to the basic image and VM downloads. I do not think that it is practical to maintain it as the primary release artifact, but I do think that we should provide it, as best we can, in addition to the primary image and VM release downloads. Dave |
Re: All-In-One distribution (was: Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha)
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>Chris Muller
> Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 3:14 AM > AIO provides a compact example file of everything needed to deploy an application on each of the top platforms. For no more than its instructional value, it is something worth keeping, IMO. The AIO _is_ the application. Good to run off a pen drive as well in a platform independent way. It does not need to be built regularily. Just for the release is fine. On 5/30/18, David T. Lewis <[hidden email]> wrote: > On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 07:22:28AM +0200, Tobias Pape wrote: >> >> > On 30.05.2018, at 01:40, Edgar De Cleene <[hidden email]> wrote: >> > >> > On 29 May 2018, at 15:42, karl ramberg <[hidden email]> wrote: >> > >> >> Making it easier to find and download new VM builds should be a >> >> priority. >> >> It's quite hard to find a recent VM following links from squeak.org >> >> >> > This scared beginners >> > All in one should have the most stable and recent >> >> Let's face it: the All-in-ones are dead. >> Apple makes it harder than ever and for linux we should have start >> building platform packages long ago. >> > > This topic deserves a new subject line, and it would be great to get some > more input regarding who prefers using the All-In-One distribution for > regular use, versus other approaches for organizing their image and VM. > > My personal view is that the All-In-One is a valuable enhancement to > the basic image and VM downloads. I do not think that it is practical > to maintain it as the primary release artifact, but I do think that we > should provide it, as best we can, in addition to the primary image and > VM release downloads. > > Dave > > > |
Re: All-In-One distribution (was: Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha)
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HI
> On 30.05.2018, at 15:30, H. Hirzel <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> Chris Muller >> Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 3:14 AM > >> AIO provides a compact example file of everything needed to deploy an application on each of the top platforms. For no more than its instructional value, it is something worth keeping, IMO. > > > The AIO _is_ the application. Good to run off a pen drive as well in a > platform independent way. > > It does not need to be built regularily. > Just for the release is fine. But the AIO is impractical. Eg, for OSX we _must_ force users now to _move_ the .app bundle before starting it the first time, else things just do not work. The only viable Way I see for that is building read-only disk images, so that people must move the app. However, nobody else can use DMGs, so we have two things already: - ZIP - DMG And now that snaps (https://snapcraft.io/) enter the stage for linux, we have at least to _consider_ that, too. And when signing comes into play, this is getting too complex for me. I completely the understand the desirability of a portable app, but given we;re not a near-stateless browser and given our "workforce", I don't see this happen reliably in the forthcoming time. Best regards -Tobias > > On 5/30/18, David T. Lewis <[hidden email]> wrote: >> On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 07:22:28AM +0200, Tobias Pape wrote: >>> >>>> On 30.05.2018, at 01:40, Edgar De Cleene <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> >>>> On 29 May 2018, at 15:42, karl ramberg <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Making it easier to find and download new VM builds should be a >>>>> priority. >>>>> It's quite hard to find a recent VM following links from squeak.org >>>>> >>>> This scared beginners >>>> All in one should have the most stable and recent >>> >>> Let's face it: the All-in-ones are dead. >>> Apple makes it harder than ever and for linux we should have start >>> building platform packages long ago. >>> >> >> This topic deserves a new subject line, and it would be great to get some >> more input regarding who prefers using the All-In-One distribution for >> regular use, versus other approaches for organizing their image and VM. >> >> My personal view is that the All-In-One is a valuable enhancement to >> the basic image and VM downloads. I do not think that it is practical >> to maintain it as the primary release artifact, but I do think that we >> should provide it, as best we can, in addition to the primary image and >> VM release downloads. >> >> Dave >> >> >> > |
Re: [ANN] Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha
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In reply to this post by Tobias Pape
On Mon, 28 May 2018, Tobias Pape wrote:
> >> On 28.05.2018, at 00:50, Chris Muller <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >>>> >>>> Unfortunately, the pre-release VM has the bug described in issue #260: https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm/issues/260 .> >>> >>> Yea, i haven't had the time to fix that one. >>> It's actually a plugin not the vm per se… >> >> ... IMO, it's a non-starter to include a newer VM in 5.2 release if it >> means this plugin will be broken. > > > No, It means that the plugin (apparently, I have not reproduced) > - cannot be built on ubuntu 14.04 > - cannot be use on 14.04 with the plugin from travis. Levente > > Although being an LTS, 14.04 is four years old (and goes out of maitenance in a year…) > > its a special config, debians around that time still used 0.9-whatever. > I think its a fix that takes around 2 hours, +/- time for settiung up the OS. > I don't have those 2 hours atm. > > > Most users will be fine… > > -t |
Re: All-In-One distribution (was: Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha)
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In reply to this post by Tobias Pape
On 30 May 2018 at 07:59, Tobias Pape <[hidden email]> wrote: HI We don't necessarily need the All-in-One, meaning one download that works on all major platforms. It would still be cool if we can pull it off, though. E.g. users in schools used to love Etoys-to-Go installed on a USB stick, which would work the same plugged into a Mac at school or a PC at home. We do need a VM+image bundle that works "out of the box" though. One download, double-click, have a running image. Could be separate downloads per platform, if that is more convenient. For macOS that means it should be an App bundle that includes the image, and the whole bundle needs to be read-only. On first run it should copy image and changes to the writeable sandbox folder and work from there. This should satisfy Apple's security requirements going forward. - Bert -
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Re: All-In-One distribution (was: Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha)
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In reply to this post by David T. Lewis
Hi David,
Thanks for the request for comments. :) I think the AIO is neat on its own. I sometimes use the AIO and/or app bundle for one-off experiments which require a quick "download-n-go" experience where I expect to throw away any changes. But for Mac users, I'm afraid the AIO and especially the .app bundle take too prominent a place on the website compared to the more traditional VM & sources + image & changes combination, which takes a few extra clicks to discover. I say this because there is AFAIK hardly any in-image or in-VM support for the "work style" imposed by the AIO / .app bundle on OS X / macOS. For example: new users working with the AIO / app bundle may try "save as..." or "save as new version..." from the world menu and be surprised when any changes they thought they'd saved are gone the next time they run the AIO. This is because, AFAIK, the AIO / .app bundle work style has no in-image support (or in-VM support) for loading any image other than the one bundled within an AIO / app bundle. IIRC there have been discussions on the mailing list about adding this support (say, making the .app bundle load the highest successive .1 .2 .3 image inside the bundle, as created by "save as new version...") but I don't know if any changes ever were implemented. Forgive me if they have, and I missed it! When I really set an OS X system up for Squeak, I create a folder called "Squeak" in the /Applications folder. Inside that folder, I put VMs and .sources files. (The VM, when used in this way, already contains the facilities to pop up a file requester asking which image to load, which the AIO/.app wouldn't do. It usually even remembers the last-used directory.) I'll usually throw my current preferred VM onto the Dock. My image and changes files live elsewhere, either on my Desktop or in my Documents folder. To load an image, I either double-click, right-click and "open with," or drag its icon onto a VM icon on my Dock. If I had my druthers, the default OS X / macOS download on squeak.org would no longer be the .app bundle, since this is too close to the AIO experience and shares its drawbacks. It would instead be an archive or dmg with some combination of VM, sources, image, and changes files. It could potentially even contain an installer .pkg which sets up the environment similar to what I described above.
best, { 'tim'. 'tim'. 'tim'. 'tim' } anyOne |
Re: All-In-One distribution (was: Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha)
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Hello
I think a compromise could be to a) go for a smooth Mac installation experience at the moment; but still maintain on the to do list to later on go for an AIO experience again [1] (Mac/Windows/Linux) b) Thus remove the inclusion of Mac support from the All-In-One at the moment. The All-In-One would only support Linux and Windows as it is currently. c) Focus on getting loading legacy image segments to work fully[2]. Then there is less pressure on having different VMs around in order to open *.morph and *.pr files done in earlier versions. [3] d) Work on updating the compile and installation instructions for doing different VMs for different variants of Linux. Tobias Pape mentions limited resources. In terms of priority it is not so much the availability of an actual Linux VM which counts but to have a good process descriptions which allow other developers to produce Linux VMs. [4][5] --Hannes [1] Bert Freudenberg writes in this thread: 'E.g. users in schools used to love Etoys-to-Go installed on a USB stick, which would work the same plugged into a Mac at school or a PC at home.' [2] As of now it is possible to load a limited set of 6502 interpreter *.pr and *.morph files. http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/6502 Work is all done in Smalltalk - no longer in C on the VM level. See class LegacyImageSegment and also http://forum.world.st/How-does-ImageSegmentLoader-readObject-work-tp5077513.html This allows people to contribute to finalize this without any other tool support than just the regular Squeak enviroment. [3] It is probably mainly the loading of MethodProperties as Eliot Miranda writes http://forum.world.st/How-does-ImageSegmentLoader-readObject-work-tp5077513p5077578.html <citation> 3.10 had an instance of MethodProperties as the penultimate literal in all methods. As of Cog (but this has nothing to do with the VM) methods either have a selector in the penultimate literal, or an instance of AdditionalMethodState (if the method has a pragma or properties), hence saving considerable space. </citation> [4] Updated compiling and installation instructions for VMs on Linux. This includes people reading the OpenSmalltalk lists (Cuis, Pharo, Squeak) who do not have in-depth knowledge about VMs but can easily follow well-written instructions. This as well has to include more in-depth explanations about the different types on VMs - Virtual machine http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/676 - Updated README file on https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm pointing to compile and installation instructions [5] See the thread on this list from 14th May 2018 '[squeak-dev] Squeak 4.6 on 32-Bits FreeBSD 11.1' Questions about compiling a VM for FreeBSD. Then knowledge gained there should be put in a place where it can be later on found easily. (Help file - list of links to instructions?, Wiki on OpenSmalltalk?) On 5/31/18, Tim Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi David, > >> On May 30, 2018, at 5:54 AM, David T. Lewis <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> This topic deserves a new subject line, and it would be great to get some >> more input regarding who prefers using the All-In-One distribution for >> regular use, versus other approaches for organizing their image and VM. > > Thanks for the request for comments. :) > > I think the AIO is neat on its own. I sometimes use the AIO and/or app > bundle for one-off experiments which require a quick "download-n-go" > experience where I expect to throw away any changes. > > But for Mac users, I'm afraid the AIO and especially the .app bundle take > too prominent a place on the website compared to the more traditional VM & > sources + image & changes combination, which takes a few extra clicks to > discover. I say this because there is AFAIK hardly any in-image or in-VM > support for the "work style" imposed by the AIO / .app bundle on OS X / > macOS. > > For example: new users working with the AIO / app bundle may try "save > as..." or "save as new version..." from the world menu and be surprised when > any changes they thought they'd saved are gone the next time they run the > AIO. This is because, AFAIK, the AIO / .app bundle work style has no > in-image support (or in-VM support) for loading any image other than the one > bundled within an AIO / app bundle. IIRC there have been discussions on the > mailing list about adding this support (say, making the .app bundle load the > highest successive .1 .2 .3 image inside the bundle, as created by "save as > new version...") but I don't know if any changes ever were implemented. > Forgive me if they have, and I missed it! > > When I really set an OS X system up for Squeak, I create a folder called > "Squeak" in the /Applications folder. Inside that folder, I put VMs and > .sources files. (The VM, when used in this way, already contains the > facilities to pop up a file requester asking which image to load, which the > AIO/.app wouldn't do. It usually even remembers the last-used directory.) > I'll usually throw my current preferred VM onto the Dock. My image and > changes files live elsewhere, either on my Desktop or in my Documents > folder. To load an image, I either double-click, right-click and "open > with," or drag its icon onto a VM icon on my Dock. > > If I had my druthers, the default OS X / macOS download on squeak.org would > no longer be the .app bundle, since this is too close to the AIO experience > and shares its drawbacks. It would instead be an archive or dmg with some > combination of VM, sources, image, and changes files. It could potentially > even contain an installer .pkg which sets up the environment similar to what > I described above. > >> My personal view is that the All-In-One is a valuable enhancement to >> the basic image and VM downloads. I do not think that it is practical >> to maintain it as the primary release artifact, but I do think that we >> should provide it, as best we can, in addition to the primary image and >> VM release downloads. > > Hear hear. > > best, > { 'tim'. 'tim'. 'tim'. 'tim' } anyOne > > > |
Re: All-In-One distribution (was: Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha)
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In reply to this post by Tobias Pape
I think the AIO causes more problems than it’s worth. Does it work in Windows better than it does in Mac OS and Linux? I hope so, because it only works for rank beginners on the latter platforms.
/————————————————————/ Encrypted email at [hidden email] Web: www.objectnets.net and www.objectnets.org
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Re: All-In-One distribution (was: Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha)
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On 5/31/18, John Pfersich <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I think the AIO causes more problems than it’s worth. Does it work in > Windows better than it does in Mac OS and Linux? I hope so, because it only > works for rank beginners on the latter platforms. This is the question of the target user group. As Bert mentions Etoys-to-go on a pen drive (use your environment in school, e.g. Mac and at home Windows-PC) _is_ an issue. But as I just write in the previous mail probably it has to be put on the back-burner at the moment .... The user group of "beginners" is also the one which is the largest group of users! > > /————————————————————/ > Encrypted email at [hidden email] > Web: www.objectnets.net and www.objectnets.org > >> On May 30, 2018, at 07:59, Tobias Pape <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> HI >> >>>> On 30.05.2018, at 15:30, H. Hirzel <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Chris Muller >>>> Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 3:14 AM >>> >>>> AIO provides a compact example file of everything needed to deploy an >>>> application on each of the top platforms. For no more than its >>>> instructional value, it is something worth keeping, IMO. >>> >>> >>> The AIO _is_ the application. Good to run off a pen drive as well in a >>> platform independent way. >>> >>> It does not need to be built regularily. >>> Just for the release is fine. >> >> >> But the AIO is impractical. >> Eg, for OSX we _must_ force users now to _move_ the .app bundle before >> starting it the first time, else things just do not work. The only viable >> Way I see for that is building read-only disk images, so that people must >> move the app. >> >> However, nobody else can use DMGs, so we have two things already: >> - ZIP >> - DMG >> >> And now that snaps (https://snapcraft.io/) enter the stage for linux, we >> have at least to _consider_ that, too. >> >> And when signing comes into play, this is getting too complex for me. >> >> I completely the understand the desirability of a portable app, but given >> we;re not a near-stateless browser and given our "workforce", I don't see >> this happen reliably in the forthcoming time. >> >> Best regards >> -Tobias >> >> >> >>> >>>> On 5/30/18, David T. Lewis <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>> On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 07:22:28AM +0200, Tobias Pape wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 30.05.2018, at 01:40, Edgar De Cleene <[hidden email]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> On 29 May 2018, at 15:42, karl ramberg <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Making it easier to find and download new VM builds should be a >>>>>>> priority. >>>>>>> It's quite hard to find a recent VM following links from squeak.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> This scared beginners >>>>>> All in one should have the most stable and recent >>>>> >>>>> Let's face it: the All-in-ones are dead. >>>>> Apple makes it harder than ever and for linux we should have start >>>>> building platform packages long ago. >>>>> >>>> >>>> This topic deserves a new subject line, and it would be great to get >>>> some >>>> more input regarding who prefers using the All-In-One distribution for >>>> regular use, versus other approaches for organizing their image and VM. >>>> >>>> My personal view is that the All-In-One is a valuable enhancement to >>>> the basic image and VM downloads. I do not think that it is practical >>>> to maintain it as the primary release artifact, but I do think that we >>>> should provide it, as best we can, in addition to the primary image and >>>> VM release downloads. >>>> >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > |
Re: All-In-One distribution (was: Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha)
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Well, at least on Mac OS, the fact that Squeak doesn’t work right off the bat is probably a turnoff for most users, especially since there don’t seem to be any instructions on what to after you get this (I just tested this):  I mean, it's a 32 bit app (running on Mac OS 10.13.4) and you can't save the image. What good is it? It's worse than non-functional. It seems to me that a lot of people would just give up on it. I'm still running 4.6 because at least it works on Mac OS without having to screw around, trying to figure out what does work. And doing things not related to programming is what the small Squeak community obviously wants beginners to do. If Squeak was a so hard to use back in 2000, I would have abandoned it immediately.
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Re: All-In-One distribution (was: Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha)
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John, I agree with you.
Before thinking about a All-In-One which might cover the Mac as well there needs to be an stand-alone installation package for 5.2 (VM, sources, changes, image) for the Mac which actually runs ...... H. On 5/31/18, John Pfersich <[hidden email]> wrote: > Well, at least on Mac OS, the fact that Squeak doesn’t work right off the > bat is probably a turnoff for most users, especially since there don’t seem > to be any instructions on what to after you get this (I just tested this): > > > I mean, it's a 32 bit app (running on Mac OS 10.13.4) and you can't save the > image. What good is it? It's worse than non-functional. It seems to me that > a lot of people would just give up on it. I'm still running 4.6 because at > least it works on Mac OS without having to screw around, trying to figure > out what does work. And doing things not related to programming is what the > small Squeak community obviously wants beginners to do. If Squeak was a so > hard to use back in 2000, I would have abandoned it immediately. > > > > > On May 31, 2018, at 12:24 AM, "H. Hirzel" <[hidden email]> wrote: > > On 5/31/18, John Pfersich <[hidden email]> wrote: > I think the AIO causes more problems than it’s worth. Does it work in > Windows better than it does in Mac OS and Linux? I hope so, because it only > works for rank beginners on the latter platforms. > > This is the question of the target user group. > > As Bert mentions Etoys-to-go on a pen drive (use your environment in > school, e.g. Mac and at home Windows-PC) _is_ an issue. But as I just > write in the previous mail probably it has to be put on the > back-burner at the moment .... > > The user group of "beginners" is also the one which is the largest > group of users! > > > /————————————————————/ > Encrypted email at [hidden email] > Web: http://www.objectnets.net and http://www.objectnets.org > > On May 30, 2018, at 07:59, Tobias Pape <[hidden email]> wrote: > > HI > > On 30.05.2018, at 15:30, H. Hirzel <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Chris Muller > Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 3:14 AM > > AIO provides a compact example file of everything needed to deploy an > application on each of the top platforms. For no more than its > instructional value, it is something worth keeping, IMO. > > > The AIO _is_ the application. Good to run off a pen drive as well in a > platform independent way. > > It does not need to be built regularily. > Just for the release is fine. > > > But the AIO is impractical. > Eg, for OSX we _must_ force users now to _move_ the .app bundle before > starting it the first time, else things just do not work. The only viable > Way I see for that is building read-only disk images, so that people must > move the app. > > However, nobody else can use DMGs, so we have two things already: > - ZIP > - DMG > > And now that snaps (https://snapcraft.io/) enter the stage for linux, we > have at least to _consider_ that, too. > > And when signing comes into play, this is getting too complex for me. > > I completely the understand the desirability of a portable app, but given > we;re not a near-stateless browser and given our "workforce", I don't see > this happen reliably in the forthcoming time. > > Best regards > -Tobias > > > > > On 5/30/18, David T. Lewis <[hidden email]> wrote: > On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 07:22:28AM +0200, Tobias Pape wrote: > > On 30.05.2018, at 01:40, Edgar De Cleene <[hidden email]> > wrote: > > On 29 May 2018, at 15:42, karl ramberg <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Making it easier to find and download new VM builds should be a > priority. > It's quite hard to find a recent VM following links from squeak.org > > This scared beginners > All in one should have the most stable and recent > > Let's face it: the All-in-ones are dead. > Apple makes it harder than ever and for linux we should have start > building platform packages long ago. > > > This topic deserves a new subject line, and it would be great to get > some > more input regarding who prefers using the All-In-One distribution for > regular use, versus other approaches for organizing their image and VM. > > My personal view is that the All-In-One is a valuable enhancement to > the basic image and VM downloads. I do not think that it is practical > to maintain it as the primary release artifact, but I do think that we > should provide it, as best we can, in addition to the primary image and > VM release downloads. > > Dave > > > > > > > > > |
Re: All-In-One distribution (was: Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha)
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In reply to this post by John Pfersich-2
Is what you do with ANY app, don’t’ you ? And the not optimized is for any not 64 bits On 31/05/2018, 05:18, "John Pfersich" <[hidden email]> wrote: Well, at least on Mac OS, the fact that Squeak doesn’t work right off the bat is probably a turnoff for most users, especially since there don’t seem to be any instructions on what to after you get this (I just tested this): |
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In reply to this post by Hannes Hirzel
Hi all, On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 10:57 AM H. Hirzel <[hidden email]> wrote: John, I agree with you. We recently discussed the necessity of a read-only DMG bundle for macOS which solves this issue. And I've actually implemented that already (e.g. [1]). Thing is, we cannot provide a DMG for the All-In-One nor is there an easy way around the sandbox disaster on macOS. However, we should probably extend the read-only warning in Squeak when running on macOS and instruct users to move the .app bundle before opening it. Fabio
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