[ANN] Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha
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On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 7:32 AM Tim Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
We probably need a list of images that are available in an AIO bundle and a manager that allows users to remove certain images. Another way of fixing this would be to remove the "Save as" option in AIO bundles all together. Or we could replace it with an "Export as" option that saves the image/changes outside the AIO to avoid any confusion, but then users might not know what to do with those files. Fabio
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Re: All-In-One distribution (was: Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha)
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In reply to this post by Edgar De Cleene
No, with Pharo, I copy the files to subdirectories of my home folder and run without the problems I have with Squeak. I have dozens of images. But then again, Smalltalk is a hobby; I haven’t had an offer for Smalltalk work since 2005.
/————————————————————/ Encrypted email at [hidden email] Web: www.objectnets.net and www.objectnets.org
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Re: All-In-One distribution (was: Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha)
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On Fri, Jun 01, 2018 at 12:50:08AM -0700, John Pfersich wrote:
> No, with Pharo, I copy the files to subdirectories of my home folder and run without the problems I have with Squeak. I have dozens of images. But then again, Smalltalk is a hobby; I haven???t had an offer for Smalltalk work since 2005. > John, What you describe is exactly how I work with Squeak. VMs are installed system wide (on my small Linux laptop "system"). Images are in directories in my home directory, with many separate directories for various Squeak things (including some very old images), as well as directories for Cuis and Pharo images. I use a /usr/local/bin/run shell script to find the right VM based on image type, so for example if I want to run an image called "cuis.image" in my Cuis directory, the command is: $ run cuis I rarely use the All-In-One, but I can see that it is very important for some people in their daily use, and it is also very important for classrooms and for making Squeak easily downloadable for people who would like to just download and easily try it. So I think that the "download and run" packages are important, even though I personally prefer to work in the way that you describe. As with you, Smalltalk is a hobby for me. Dave > /????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????/ > Encrypted email at [hidden email] > Web: www.objectnets.net and www.objectnets.org > > > On May 31, 2018, at 02:26, Edgar J. De Cleene <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > > This do ot happen if you move the .app to applications folder. > > Is what you do with ANY app, don???t??? you ? > > And the not optimized is for any not 64 bits > > > > > > On 31/05/2018, 05:18, "John Pfersich" <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > > Well, at least on Mac OS, the fact that Squeak doesn???t work right off the bat is probably a turnoff for most users, especially since there don???t seem to be any instructions on what to after you get this (I just tested this): > > > |
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2018-06-01 9:33 GMT-03:00 David T. Lewis <[hidden email]>: On Fri, Jun 01, 2018 at 12:50:08AM -0700, John Pfersich wrote: I should have realized this before and then I would not have wasted 20 years with Smalltalk, who barely bought me a cup or two of tea :( |
Re: All-In-One distribution (was: Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha)
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On Fri, Jun 01, 2018 at 01:01:31PM -0300, Germ??n Arduino wrote:
> 2018-06-01 9:33 GMT-03:00 David T. Lewis <[hidden email]>: > > > On Fri, Jun 01, 2018 at 12:50:08AM -0700, John Pfersich wrote: > > > Smalltalk is a hobby; I haven???t had an offer for Smalltalk work since > > 2005. > > > > > > > >> As with you, Smalltalk is a hobby for me. > > > > I should have realized this before and then I would not have wasted 20 > years with Smalltalk, who barely bought me a cup or two of tea :( You should think twice about this. If you thought that Smalltalk was going to make you rich, then you are probably a sad and disappointed person. If you thought that Smalltalk might be a tool to help you think clearly and explore new ideas, then you may be a happy and satisfied person. I don't know if anyone will ever make any money by being happy and satisfied, but I can say that in my own experience that the learning that I have done with Squeak has been a big part of enabling me to make a decent income in the last 10 or 15 years of my professional life. To put it in more concrete terms: I do systems integration work for a manufacturing company, and this involves (among other things) some custom software development (not Squeak, not Smalltalk). I am good at what I do, and I get paid for it. A significant part of the "I am good at what I do" aspect is attributable to Squeak, or more specifically the learning that I have derived from Squeak. So I am a happy "hobby" Smalltalker. I make zero income from Squeak, but I can honestly tell you that a good deal of my actual professional income is supported by my hobby. YMMV, Dave |
Re: All-In-One distribution (was: Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha)
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> On 01-06-2018, at 7:39 PM, David T. Lewis <[hidden email]> wrote: > [snip] > > So I am a happy "hobby" Smalltalker. I make zero income from Squeak, but I > can honestly tell you that a good deal of my actual professional income > is supported by my hobby. Now I'm almost the exact opposite in some ways. Smalltalk isn't exactly a hobby in my life; you could almost say it *is* my life. Over the last 35+ years I'd say 90+% of my income has come from Smalltalk and probably 75% specifically from Smalltalk on ARM. Which has to be one of the weirdest specialisations ever. And I'm inclined to say that the current AIO setup is not a very effective one. An all-in-one package is a fine idea - providing the Smalltalk system and suitable VMs for all the major OS/hardware we can run on is very sensible. I think we've got to the stage where trying to make a unified one-click-run system probably causes more confusion than anything. Perhaps if we went for a simpler directory with the image/changes/sources and appropriate separate VM (sub)directories it might be easier to handle. Plus an actually helpful README to explain things. tim -- tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Quality assurance: A way to ensure you never deliver shoddy goods accidentally. |
Re: All-In-One distribution (was: Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha)
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> On Jun 1, 2018, at 20:32, tim Rowledge <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > >> On 01-06-2018, at 7:39 PM, David T. Lewis <[hidden email]> wrote: >> [snip] >> >> So I am a happy "hobby" Smalltalker. I make zero income from Squeak, but I >> can honestly tell you that a good deal of my actual professional income >> is supported by my hobby. > > Now I'm almost the exact opposite in some ways. Smalltalk isn't exactly a hobby in my life; you could almost say it *is* my life. Over the last 35+ years I'd say 90+% of my income has come from Smalltalk and probably 75% specifically from Smalltalk on ARM. Which has to be one of the weirdest specialisations ever. > > And I'm inclined to say that the current AIO setup is not a very effective one. An all-in-one package is a fine idea - providing the Smalltalk system and suitable VMs for all the major OS/hardware we can run on is very sensible. I think we've got to the stage where trying to make a unified one-click-run system probably causes more confusion than anything. Perhaps if we went for a simpler directory with the image/changes/sources and appropriate separate VM (sub)directories it might be easier to handle. Plus an actually helpful README to explain things. Here, here, there there > > tim > -- > tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim > Quality assurance: A way to ensure you never deliver shoddy goods accidentally. > > > |
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In reply to this post by David T. Lewis
Hi Dave: Of course I miss the technical purity of Smalltalk and objects everywhere, but it is not viable, in my pov, to develop massive business applications, neither web, nor desktop and much less mobile. Just my opinion. Saludos / Regards, Germán Arduino @garduino 2018-06-01 23:39 GMT-03:00 David T. Lewis <[hidden email]>:
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Re: All-In-One distribution (was: Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha)
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Hi Germán,
Just an FYI, and not to knock Squeak or Pharo you might take a look at VA Smalltalk http://www.instantiations.com or GemStoneS https://gemtalksystems.com. May people use them to develop business and web applications with them. Lou >Hi Dave: > >I enjoyed a lot smalltalk and its communities but I failed thinking that I >could make a living with it. Might be my lack of talent but other people >with an infinite more capability than me failed at same way and my >stubbornness for use Smalltalk in my business only made me lost lot of time >and money. > >Of course I miss the technical purity of Smalltalk and objects everywhere, >but it is not viable, in my pov, to develop massive business applications, >neither web, nor desktop and much less mobile. > >Just my opinion. > >Saludos / Regards, >Germán Arduino >@garduino > > >2018-06-01 23:39 GMT-03:00 David T. Lewis <[hidden email]>: > >> On Fri, Jun 01, 2018 at 01:01:31PM -0300, Germ??n Arduino wrote: >> > 2018-06-01 9:33 GMT-03:00 David T. Lewis <[hidden email]>: >> > >> > > On Fri, Jun 01, 2018 at 12:50:08AM -0700, John Pfersich wrote: >> > > > Smalltalk is a hobby; I haven???t had an offer for Smalltalk work >> since >> > > 2005. >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> As with you, Smalltalk is a hobby for me. >> > > >> > >> > I should have realized this before and then I would not have wasted 20 >> > years with Smalltalk, who barely bought me a cup or two of tea :( >> >> You should think twice about this. If you thought that Smalltalk was going >> to make you rich, then you are probably a sad and disappointed person. If >> you thought that Smalltalk might be a tool to help you think clearly and >> explore new ideas, then you may be a happy and satisfied person. >> >> I don't know if anyone will ever make any money by being happy and >> satisfied, >> but I can say that in my own experience that the learning that I have done >> with Squeak has been a big part of enabling me to make a decent income in >> the last 10 or 15 years of my professional life. >> >> To put it in more concrete terms: I do systems integration work for a >> manufacturing company, and this involves (among other things) some custom >> software development (not Squeak, not Smalltalk). I am good at what I >> do, and I get paid for it. A significant part of the "I am good at what >> I do" aspect is attributable to Squeak, or more specifically the learning >> that I have derived from Squeak. >> >> So I am a happy "hobby" Smalltalker. I make zero income from Squeak, but I >> can honestly tell you that a good deal of my actual professional income >> is supported by my hobby. >> >> YMMV, >> >> Dave >> >> >> Louis LaBrunda Keystone Software Corp. SkypeMe callto://PhotonDemon |
Re: All-In-One distribution (was: Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha)
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Hello guys, Now I am not counting on making massive amounts of money with Squeak, but I would like to know if someone with a good knowledge of Squeak environment, could arrive at applications that can relatively stand the comparison (taking into account that Squeak is open source) with applications developed with VA Smalltalk or Gemstone. I can imagine Squeak suffering a bit on the UI-part, but would there be much difference in supported functionalities, you think? All applications are for personnal use, and as good looking an interface can be, I attach more importance to the usability of my applications anyway. Of course if one can get both.... Kind regards, Edwin Ancaer Op wo 6 jun. 2018 15:42 schreef Louis LaBrunda <[hidden email]>: Hi Germán, |
Re: All-In-One distribution (was: Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha)
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Hi Edwin,
On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 8:11 AM, Edwin Ancaer <[hidden email]> wrote:
Please ask your question again using a separate thread instead of hijacking a very important thread on a specific subject. Thank you.
_,,,^..^,,,_ best, Eliot |
Re: All-In-One distribution (was: Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha)
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In reply to this post by Edwin Ancaer
Hi Edwin,
I develop with VA, have made a few personal programs with Squeak and have no experience with Gemstone. If you use Seaside to develop web apps (I have done some with both VA and Squeak), I think they will look much the same. I think you can do some nice looking GUIs with Squeak but they will look like Squeak programs. VA uses the underling OS to draw its GUI stuff, so on Windows, they look like most Windows programs and on Linux, they look like Linux programs. Depending upon what you want your application to do, there may be things in one of these Smalltalks that makes it easier that the others. As you know Squeak is free. VA and Gemstone are not although they may offer something free for personal use, I'm not sure. Lou On Wed, 6 Jun 2018 17:11:12 +0200, Edwin Ancaer <[hidden email]> wrote: >Hello guys, > >Now I am not counting on making massive amounts of money with Squeak, but I >would like to know if someone with a good knowledge of Squeak environment, >could arrive at applications that can relatively stand the comparison >(taking into account that Squeak is open source) with applications >developed with VA Smalltalk or Gemstone. > >I can imagine Squeak suffering a bit on the UI-part, but would there be >much difference in supported functionalities, you think? > >All applications are for personnal use, and as good looking an interface >can be, I attach more importance to the usability of my applications >anyway. Of course if one can get both.... > > >Kind regards, > >Edwin Ancaer > > > > > > > >Op wo 6 jun. 2018 15:42 schreef Louis LaBrunda <[hidden email]>: > >> Hi Germán, >> >> Just an FYI, and not to knock Squeak or Pharo you might take a look at >> VA Smalltalk http://www.instantiations.com or GemStoneS >> https://gemtalksystems.com. May people >> use them to develop business and web applications with them. >> >> Lou >> >> >> >Hi Dave: >> > >> >I enjoyed a lot smalltalk and its communities but I failed thinking that I >> >could make a living with it. Might be my lack of talent but other people >> >with an infinite more capability than me failed at same way and my >> >stubbornness for use Smalltalk in my business only made me lost lot of >> time >> >and money. >> > >> >Of course I miss the technical purity of Smalltalk and objects everywhere, >> >but it is not viable, in my pov, to develop massive business applications, >> >neither web, nor desktop and much less mobile. >> > >> >Just my opinion. >> > >> >Saludos / Regards, >> >Germán Arduino >> >@garduino >> > >> > >> >2018-06-01 23:39 GMT-03:00 David T. Lewis <[hidden email]>: >> > >> >> On Fri, Jun 01, 2018 at 01:01:31PM -0300, Germ??n Arduino wrote: >> >> > 2018-06-01 9:33 GMT-03:00 David T. Lewis <[hidden email]>: >> >> > >> >> > > On Fri, Jun 01, 2018 at 12:50:08AM -0700, John Pfersich wrote: >> >> > > > Smalltalk is a hobby; I haven???t had an offer for Smalltalk work >> >> since >> >> > > 2005. >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> As with you, Smalltalk is a hobby for me. >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > I should have realized this before and then I would not have wasted 20 >> >> > years with Smalltalk, who barely bought me a cup or two of tea :( >> >> >> >> You should think twice about this. If you thought that Smalltalk was >> going >> >> to make you rich, then you are probably a sad and disappointed person. >> If >> >> you thought that Smalltalk might be a tool to help you think clearly and >> >> explore new ideas, then you may be a happy and satisfied person. >> >> >> >> I don't know if anyone will ever make any money by being happy and >> >> satisfied, >> >> but I can say that in my own experience that the learning that I have >> done >> >> with Squeak has been a big part of enabling me to make a decent income >> in >> >> the last 10 or 15 years of my professional life. >> >> >> >> To put it in more concrete terms: I do systems integration work for a >> >> manufacturing company, and this involves (among other things) some >> custom >> >> software development (not Squeak, not Smalltalk). I am good at what I >> >> do, and I get paid for it. A significant part of the "I am good at what >> >> I do" aspect is attributable to Squeak, or more specifically the >> learning >> >> that I have derived from Squeak. >> >> >> >> So I am a happy "hobby" Smalltalker. I make zero income from Squeak, >> but I >> >> can honestly tell you that a good deal of my actual professional income >> >> is supported by my hobby. >> >> >> >> YMMV, >> >> >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Louis LaBrunda >> Keystone Software Corp. >> SkypeMe callto://PhotonDemon >> >> >> Louis LaBrunda Keystone Software Corp. SkypeMe callto://PhotonDemon |
Re: All-In-One distribution (was: Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha)
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Hi Louis, Hi All, can we please move these discussions to another thread? The All-in-One thread is very important in its own right. On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 9:35 AM, Louis LaBrunda <[hidden email]> wrote: Hi Edwin, _,,,^..^,,,_ best, Eliot |
Re: All-In-One distribution (was: Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha)
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In reply to this post by fniephaus
fniephaus wrote
> We recently discussed the necessity of a read-only DMG bundle for macOS > which solves this issue. And I've actually implemented that already (e.g. > [1]). > Thing is, we cannot provide a DMG for the All-In-One nor is there an easy > way around the sandbox disaster on macOS. > However, we should probably extend the read-only warning in Squeak when > running on macOS and instruct users to move the .app bundle before opening > it. > > Fabio Is homebrew (https://brew.sh/) a valid way to appease the people that, on mac, think the all-in-one isn't sufficient for real work? -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Squeak-Dev-f45488.html |
Re: [ANN] Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha
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In reply to this post by Levente Uzonyi
> On 30.05.2018, at 19:50, Levente Uzonyi <[hidden email]> wrote: > > On Mon, 28 May 2018, Tobias Pape wrote: > >> >>> On 28.05.2018, at 00:50, Chris Muller <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>> Unfortunately, the pre-release VM has the bug described in issue #260: https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm/issues/260 .> >>>> Yea, i haven't had the time to fix that one. >>>> It's actually a plugin not the vm per se… >>> ... IMO, it's a non-starter to include a newer VM in 5.2 release if it >>> means this plugin will be broken. >> >> >> No, It means that the plugin (apparently, I have not reproduced) - cannot be built on ubuntu 14.04 - cannot be use on 14.04 with the plugin from travis. > > The same thing happens on Debian 8. should work > > Levente > >> >> Although being an LTS, 14.04 is four years old (and goes out of maitenance in a year…) >> >> its a special config, debians around that time still used 0.9-whatever. >> I think its a fix that takes around 2 hours, +/- time for settiung up the OS. >> I don't have those 2 hours atm. >> >> >> Most users will be fine… >> >> -t > |
Re: [ANN] Changing the Trunk version from 6.0alpha to 5.2alpha
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Should be verifiyed by a test and thus confirmed
On 7/24/18, Tobias Pape <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> On 30.05.2018, at 19:50, Levente Uzonyi <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> On Mon, 28 May 2018, Tobias Pape wrote: >> >>> >>>> On 28.05.2018, at 00:50, Chris Muller <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>>>> Unfortunately, the pre-release VM has the bug described in issue #260: >>>>>> https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm/issues/260 .> >>>>> Yea, i haven't had the time to fix that one. >>>>> It's actually a plugin not the vm per se… >>>> ... IMO, it's a non-starter to include a newer VM in 5.2 release if it >>>> means this plugin will be broken. >>> >>> >>> No, It means that the plugin (apparently, I have not reproduced) - cannot >>> be built on ubuntu 14.04 - cannot be use on 14.04 with the plugin from >>> travis. >> >> The same thing happens on Debian 8. > > should work >> >> Levente >> >>> >>> Although being an LTS, 14.04 is four years old (and goes out of >>> maitenance in a year…) >>> >>> its a special config, debians around that time still used 0.9-whatever. >>> I think its a fix that takes around 2 hours, +/- time for settiung up the >>> OS. >>> I don't have those 2 hours atm. >>> >>> >>> Most users will be fine… >>> >>> -t >> > > > |
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