Do you want to accept???????? Discard???????

I was the one that worked on CMD+L dialog. I posted my slice here and it was discussed. I tried to implement undo, but trying to understand undo was a pain in the ass. 

And yes Igor I am no pro coder, I code like 30 minutes a day max. I am a lawyer that tries to become a pro 2d/3d artist.

 I enjoy coding and an IDE that punishes me for my mistakes does not make coding enjoyable for me.

I think maybe an easy solution is to set all modals to a preference setting so they can be easily disabled, thus making everyone happy. 

Igor I will be frank with you, coders have no idea how to design good GUIs. They see GUIs as nothing more than an inconvenience and extra coding effort from their part. 

They usually put out the excuse "I am no designer" yet the truth is that they dont care because they cant understand the importance of a great GUI to the user. Applications like Photoshop are rare example of good GUI design. 

On 9 January 2014 11:10, kilon alios <[hidden email]> wrote:

I was the one that worked on CMD+L dialog. I posted my slice here and it was discussed. I tried to implement undo, but trying to understand undo was a pain in the ass. 

And yes Igor I am no pro coder, I code like 30 minutes a day max. I am a lawyer that tries to become a pro 2d/3d artist.

 I enjoy coding and an IDE that punishes me for my mistakes does not make coding enjoyable for me.

because punishment is a HUGE part of process as one of the stimulus for learning things you wouldn't learn the other way. Without it, i doubt you can learn anything at all.

You can give a candy to baby each time it does not try touching fire, and the only thing which baby will learn is that to get a candy it needs to pretend that its about to touch fire.

Only after baby will touch it, it can learn why touching it is bad idea.. no candies will help.

I think maybe an easy solution is to set all modals to a preference setting so they can be easily disabled, thus making everyone happy. 

Yes, that could be a way to go.

 

Igor I will be frank with you, coders have no idea how to design good GUIs. They see GUIs as nothing more than an inconvenience and extra coding effort from their part. 

really? i do not belong to those who think GUI is secondary. A well-designed GUI is very important for efficient workflow. Same as well-designed language, like smalltalk is.

They usually put out the excuse "I am no designer" yet the truth is that they dont care because they cant understand the importance of a great GUI to the user. Applications like Photoshop are rare example of good GUI design. 

you lost me on that. I never considered Photoshop as one that has good GUI design..

The main merit of Photoshop is that it is killed all other really good graphics editors and established monopoly. It's easy to say 'we are best' when there's nothing to compare with.

 

 

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

On 09 Jan 2014, at 11:11, kilon alios <[hidden email]> wrote:

I was the one that worked on CMD+L dialog. I posted my slice here and it was discussed. I tried to implement undo, but trying to understand undo was a pain in the ass. 

I reviewed it and you are not to blame: A key combination that *loses code* is not acceptable, and as we discussed in the past, this

change was needed and good.

The people who use the (undocumented!) cmd-L can easily get rid of the warning by implementing Undo.

Marcus

And yes Igor I am no pro coder, I code like 30 minutes a day max. I am a lawyer that tries to become a pro 2d/3d artist.

 I enjoy coding and an IDE that punishes me for my mistakes does not make coding enjoyable for me.

I think maybe an easy solution is to set all modals to a preference setting so they can be easily disabled, thus making everyone happy. 

Igor I will be frank with you, coders have no idea how to design good GUIs. They see GUIs as nothing more than an inconvenience and extra coding effort from their part. 

They usually put out the excuse "I am no designer" yet the truth is that they dont care because they cant understand the importance of a great GUI to the user. Applications like Photoshop are rare example of good GUI design. 

On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 09 Jan 2014, at 10:50, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 09 Jan 2014, at 10:45, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 9 January 2014 10:38, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:

The history hack did totally not work for end users, many people, including myself, lost code, often without noticing or understanding it at first.

This 'warning, you did not accept' is/was important and solid, if you want to replace that the solution should be really good - it was not.

Don't shoot on Nicolai, he tried to fix it, after asking around.

i'm not shooting anyone, i just sad there is no progress :)

and instead even regress, because now i should also answer 'yes/no' when i press

cmd-L.. 

If some people will need to be asked are they really really really fucking sure they wanted to press a key they pressed, each time they pressing the key, why others, who don't need such stupidity should suffer?

These are two different issue:

1) CMD-L

The real solution is to implement undo for cmd-L...

2) Not asking in general and rely on history.

This is a good idea but it needs to *work*

Marcus

Well, truth be told, the editors are really a pain in the current form. And in some ways are worse than in the past, especially with selection bugs etc. Now, given that we are using principles that date back 30+ years, it is astonishing that we went so far without massive changes.

There are efforts ongoing and getting TextEditors "right" is really hard. I really look forward to the new editor and dark theme.

Now, yeah, I should move my ass and contribute more to this. Putting bread on the table is getting in my way at the moment, but that's forseen to change soon.

(And Photoshop is a pain in the assets as well - GIMP isn't any better. What matters is that one invests time in learning the quirks to get the results. Always like that. Currently working with Varicad for some design project and the UI isn't simple either, see for yourself:

On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 11:59 AM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 9 January 2014 11:10, kilon alios <[hidden email]> wrote:

I was the one that worked on CMD+L dialog. I posted my slice here and it was discussed. I tried to implement undo, but trying to understand undo was a pain in the ass. 

And yes Igor I am no pro coder, I code like 30 minutes a day max. I am a lawyer that tries to become a pro 2d/3d artist.

 I enjoy coding and an IDE that punishes me for my mistakes does not make coding enjoyable for me.

because punishment is a HUGE part of process as one of the stimulus for learning things you wouldn't learn the other way. Without it, i doubt you can learn anything at all.

You can give a candy to baby each time it does not try touching fire, and the only thing which baby will learn is that to get a candy it needs to pretend that its about to touch fire.

Only after baby will touch it, it can learn why touching it is bad idea.. no candies will help.

I think maybe an easy solution is to set all modals to a preference setting so they can be easily disabled, thus making everyone happy. 

Yes, that could be a way to go.

 

Igor I will be frank with you, coders have no idea how to design good GUIs. They see GUIs as nothing more than an inconvenience and extra coding effort from their part. 

really? i do not belong to those who think GUI is secondary. A well-designed GUI is very important for efficient workflow. Same as well-designed language, like smalltalk is.

They usually put out the excuse "I am no designer" yet the truth is that they dont care because they cant understand the importance of a great GUI to the user. Applications like Photoshop are rare example of good GUI design. 

you lost me on that. I never considered Photoshop as one that has good GUI design..

The main merit of Photoshop is that it is killed all other really good graphics editors and established monopoly. It's easy to say 'we are best' when there's nothing to compare with.

 

 

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

On 9 January 2014 12:11, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Well, truth be told, the editors are really a pain in the current form. And in some ways are worse than in the past, especially with selection bugs etc. Now, given that we are using principles that date back 30+ years, it is astonishing that we went so far without massive changes.

There are efforts ongoing and getting TextEditors "right" is really hard. I really look forward to the new editor and dark theme.

Now, yeah, I should move my ass and contribute more to this. Putting bread on the table is getting in my way at the moment, but that's forseen to change soon.

(And Photoshop is a pain in the assets as well - GIMP isn't any better. What matters is that one invests time in learning the quirks to get the results. Always like that. Currently working with Varicad for some design project and the UI isn't simple either, see for yourself:

yeah.. GUI typically falls victim of too many functionality fighting with too little screen space :)

I just want that everyone understands my point: lets not surrender and keep making progress.

yes, we will suffer in the process, but that should serve as a stimulus to do things right, instead of doing nothing by reverting everything back.

I am fully understand and accepting that everyone has own preferences and different workflow, and i never assuming that my workflow is the only one which should prevail above everyone's else.
Well except the modal things :P

 

On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 11:59 AM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 9 January 2014 11:10, kilon alios <[hidden email]> wrote:

I was the one that worked on CMD+L dialog. I posted my slice here and it was discussed. I tried to implement undo, but trying to understand undo was a pain in the ass. 

And yes Igor I am no pro coder, I code like 30 minutes a day max. I am a lawyer that tries to become a pro 2d/3d artist.

 I enjoy coding and an IDE that punishes me for my mistakes does not make coding enjoyable for me.

because punishment is a HUGE part of process as one of the stimulus for learning things you wouldn't learn the other way. Without it, i doubt you can learn anything at all.

You can give a candy to baby each time it does not try touching fire, and the only thing which baby will learn is that to get a candy it needs to pretend that its about to touch fire.

Only after baby will touch it, it can learn why touching it is bad idea.. no candies will help.

I think maybe an easy solution is to set all modals to a preference setting so they can be easily disabled, thus making everyone happy. 

Yes, that could be a way to go.

 

Igor I will be frank with you, coders have no idea how to design good GUIs. They see GUIs as nothing more than an inconvenience and extra coding effort from their part. 

really? i do not belong to those who think GUI is secondary. A well-designed GUI is very important for efficient workflow. Same as well-designed language, like smalltalk is.

They usually put out the excuse "I am no designer" yet the truth is that they dont care because they cant understand the importance of a great GUI to the user. Applications like Photoshop are rare example of good GUI design. 

you lost me on that. I never considered Photoshop as one that has good GUI design..

The main merit of Photoshop is that it is killed all other really good graphics editors and established monopoly. It's easy to say 'we are best' when there's nothing to compare with.

 

 

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

On 9 January 2014 11:27, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 09 Jan 2014, at 11:11, kilon alios <[hidden email]> wrote:

I was the one that worked on CMD+L dialog. I posted my slice here and it was discussed. I tried to implement undo, but trying to understand undo was a pain in the ass. 

I reviewed it and you are not to blame: A key combination that *loses code* is not acceptable, and as we discussed in the past, this

change was needed and good.

Yes, and i agreed on that.

My only complaint is that instead of making things work, we reversed it and made things even worse.

 

The people who use the (undocumented!) cmd-L can easily get rid of the warning by implementing Undo.

how many modern editors document that pressing home key will move cursor to beginning of line? or pressing cmd-v will paste things from clipboard?

i do not think this is a good criteria to disable feature(s) only because they either not documented properly or that someone has no idea it exists.

 

Marcus

And yes Igor I am no pro coder, I code like 30 minutes a day max. I am a lawyer that tries to become a pro 2d/3d artist.

 I enjoy coding and an IDE that punishes me for my mistakes does not make coding enjoyable for me.

I think maybe an easy solution is to set all modals to a preference setting so they can be easily disabled, thus making everyone happy. 

Igor I will be frank with you, coders have no idea how to design good GUIs. They see GUIs as nothing more than an inconvenience and extra coding effort from their part. 

They usually put out the excuse "I am no designer" yet the truth is that they dont care because they cant understand the importance of a great GUI to the user. Applications like Photoshop are rare example of good GUI design. 

On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 09 Jan 2014, at 10:50, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 09 Jan 2014, at 10:45, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 9 January 2014 10:38, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:

The history hack did totally not work for end users, many people, including myself, lost code, often without noticing or understanding it at first.

This 'warning, you did not accept' is/was important and solid, if you want to replace that the solution should be really good - it was not.

Don't shoot on Nicolai, he tried to fix it, after asking around.

i'm not shooting anyone, i just sad there is no progress :)

and instead even regress, because now i should also answer 'yes/no' when i press

cmd-L.. 

If some people will need to be asked are they really really really fucking sure they wanted to press a key they pressed, each time they pressing the key, why others, who don't need such stupidity should suffer?

These are two different issue:

1) CMD-L

The real solution is to implement undo for cmd-L...

2) Not asking in general and rely on history.

This is a good idea but it needs to *work*

Marcus

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

Photoshop well deserves its monopoly, and its GUI played a vital role in it. Its your right to think that Photoshop is not good and my right to think that Photoshop GUI should be taught in seminars and lectures about GUI design.

I dont use Photoshop I use GIMP. I prefer to support open source. GIMP's GUI is bad, it was very bad , fortunately it has improved a bit. But there are like thousand of opinions out there that will show you what average user thinks about PS. PS did not earn its monopoly by accident or marketing, its there because artists just love it. 

You say you care about GUI , can you show me how exactly you care ? Because I love coding in pharo and I like the GUI, but its not very good , but its better than other IDEs. Pharo has barely changed GUI wise, sure it has Athens and Spec and Glamour and many other nice things, but the GUI itself is still very similar to squeak. For example monticello, common repos for all packages , really ? System browser , only recently got a tab system. Why a three panel should be forced down my throat, i want to maximise the view for seeing the code itself.   Fullscreen not working as fullscreen in macos which is the dominant platform of pharo. Nautilus has  strange blue box appearing for packages . A billion of windows to browse through classes and methods is that good GUI design. 

I know you worked on Nativeboost and Athens but I have seen no GUI work from you. I love your work and thank you but I am surprised to hear you say that you care about GUI. 

And you are debating about whether we should have confirm dialogs or not. The way I see it , there is so many issues you have to address even before worrying about this. 

You say that is better to let the baby burn to learn that fire is bad, Maybe you should let the baby die to learn death is not good.

If I have a tool that is easy to use and another that want to "teach me" the hard way, I rather go with the easy one. We live in world that makes life very complex , why make it even more complex than it needs to be ? I dont need a stupid software to tell me that I need to sit down and learn to improve.

But then even if you learn an app really well, a bad GUI will always remain a bad GUI, even if you have found a thousands workarounds and will hinder your workflow every single day.  

On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 1:29 PM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 9 January 2014 12:11, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Well, truth be told, the editors are really a pain in the current form. And in some ways are worse than in the past, especially with selection bugs etc. Now, given that we are using principles that date back 30+ years, it is astonishing that we went so far without massive changes.

There are efforts ongoing and getting TextEditors "right" is really hard. I really look forward to the new editor and dark theme.

Now, yeah, I should move my ass and contribute more to this. Putting bread on the table is getting in my way at the moment, but that's forseen to change soon.

(And Photoshop is a pain in the assets as well - GIMP isn't any better. What matters is that one invests time in learning the quirks to get the results. Always like that. Currently working with Varicad for some design project and the UI isn't simple either, see for yourself:

yeah.. GUI typically falls victim of too many functionality fighting with too little screen space :)

I just want that everyone understands my point: lets not surrender and keep making progress.

yes, we will suffer in the process, but that should serve as a stimulus to do things right, instead of doing nothing by reverting everything back.

I am fully understand and accepting that everyone has own preferences and different workflow, and i never assuming that my workflow is the only one which should prevail above everyone's else.
Well except the modal things :P

 

On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 11:59 AM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 9 January 2014 11:10, kilon alios <[hidden email]> wrote:

I was the one that worked on CMD+L dialog. I posted my slice here and it was discussed. I tried to implement undo, but trying to understand undo was a pain in the ass. 

And yes Igor I am no pro coder, I code like 30 minutes a day max. I am a lawyer that tries to become a pro 2d/3d artist.

 I enjoy coding and an IDE that punishes me for my mistakes does not make coding enjoyable for me.

because punishment is a HUGE part of process as one of the stimulus for learning things you wouldn't learn the other way. Without it, i doubt you can learn anything at all.

You can give a candy to baby each time it does not try touching fire, and the only thing which baby will learn is that to get a candy it needs to pretend that its about to touch fire.

Only after baby will touch it, it can learn why touching it is bad idea.. no candies will help.

I think maybe an easy solution is to set all modals to a preference setting so they can be easily disabled, thus making everyone happy. 

Yes, that could be a way to go.

 

Igor I will be frank with you, coders have no idea how to design good GUIs. They see GUIs as nothing more than an inconvenience and extra coding effort from their part. 

really? i do not belong to those who think GUI is secondary. A well-designed GUI is very important for efficient workflow. Same as well-designed language, like smalltalk is.

They usually put out the excuse "I am no designer" yet the truth is that they dont care because they cant understand the importance of a great GUI to the user. Applications like Photoshop are rare example of good GUI design. 

you lost me on that. I never considered Photoshop as one that has good GUI design..

The main merit of Photoshop is that it is killed all other really good graphics editors and established monopoly. It's easy to say 'we are best' when there's nothing to compare with.

 

 

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

On 09 Jan 2014, at 12:37, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 9 January 2014 12:13, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 9 January 2014 11:27, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 09 Jan 2014, at 11:11, kilon alios <[hidden email]> wrote:

I was the one that worked on CMD+L dialog. I posted my slice here and it was discussed. I tried to implement undo, but trying to understand undo was a pain in the ass. 

I reviewed it and you are not to blame: A key combination that *loses code* is not acceptable, and as we discussed in the past, this

change was needed and good.

Yes, and i agreed on that.

My only complaint is that instead of making things work, we reversed it and made things even worse.

 

The people who use the (undocumented!) cmd-L can easily get rid of the warning by implementing Undo.

how many modern editors document that pressing home key will move cursor to beginning of line? or pressing cmd-v will paste things from clipboard?

i do not think this is a good criteria to disable feature(s) only because they either not documented properly or that someone has no idea it exists.

yes, to be fair, the Cmd-L was not disabled, but *crippled* , enough that its usefulness become very low.

because before i knew that i can type any garbage in any editor window and undo all with single keystroke,

and now i have to be interrupted with yes/no popup.

 

Can i ask, why consoles do not ask you are you sure you want to face consequences of you pressed ctrl-c?

Undo works for ctrl-c. Fo ctrl-l it does not.

(I really wonder why we have this dissuasion: It was already last time said that if the key combination removes

code *without a change to get it back* it needs to warn, if people do not like the warning they should

a) implement undo for ctrl-l

b) remove the warning.

Marcus

Photoshop well deserves its monopoly

and my right to think that Photoshop GUI should be taught in seminars and lectures about GUI design.

PS did not earn its monopoly by accident or marketing, its there because artists just love it.

And you are debating about whether we should have confirm dialogs or not. The way I see it , there is so many issues you have to address even before worrying about this.

2014/1/9 kilon alios <[hidden email]>

Photoshop well deserves its monopoly

I am of the opinion that nothing deserves a monopoly.

 

and my right to think that Photoshop GUI should be taught in seminars and lectures about GUI design.

 

PS did not earn its monopoly by accident or marketing, its there because artists just love it.

It probably owes more to the sheer number of pirate photoshops that are out there, creating a "fan base". That´s again an opinion, however I do know quite a bunch of people who having been swearing by photoshop for quite a bunch of years, yet they´ve never owned a license, even when using it for business purposes. 

And you are debating about whether we should have confirm dialogs or not. The way I see it , there is so many issues you have to address even before worrying about this.

I fail to see the relevance of all the other "many issues" in finding a solution to this problem. Given that Igor uses Pharo constantly (or so I guess), he may very well wish for it to adapt to his workflow, and that should at least be as legitimate a concern as you wanting it to adapt to yours.

In my opinion, it should be up to the users to decide whether they need their hands held or not, if there´s such a possibility. Some users will be more comfortable with the software babysitting them, and others prefer learning the hard way. Some users happily delete files relying on a recycle bin, others think hard if they want something deleted before actually doing it. I see no reason to conciously impose one over the other, given the opportunity to have both.

Cheers,

Sergi

yes this lead to endless debate, but I think this is good because we see diffirent ways into looking into things. I have to admit till today I never expected that someone would be against confirm dialogs to such extend of wanting them to be removed completely, but I can see now that for people that dont make mistakes or they rather live with these mistakes would prefer a non confirmation approach. Its good to discuss these things because next time I will try to "fix" something I will try to do it in a way that pleases most people and not interrupting their workflow.  

And its endless because people prefer diffirent things, and thats ok. Opinions should be expressed and be respected. Opinions matter to make software better . Afterall software is made to please people by doing the things they want . No software of course is perfect. :) 

 

I completely respect Igor's opinion. And Igor its great you have worked on these things and thank you :) You should promote your work I think progress should be more carefully logged so we can all appreciate the work that goes inside pharo :) 

On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 09 Jan 2014, at 12:37, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 9 January 2014 12:13, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 9 January 2014 11:27, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 09 Jan 2014, at 11:11, kilon alios <[hidden email]> wrote:

I was the one that worked on CMD+L dialog. I posted my slice here and it was discussed. I tried to implement undo, but trying to understand undo was a pain in the ass. 

I reviewed it and you are not to blame: A key combination that *loses code* is not acceptable, and as we discussed in the past, this

change was needed and good.

Yes, and i agreed on that.

My only complaint is that instead of making things work, we reversed it and made things even worse.

 

The people who use the (undocumented!) cmd-L can easily get rid of the warning by implementing Undo.

how many modern editors document that pressing home key will move cursor to beginning of line? or pressing cmd-v will paste things from clipboard?

i do not think this is a good criteria to disable feature(s) only because they either not documented properly or that someone has no idea it exists.

yes, to be fair, the Cmd-L was not disabled, but *crippled* , enough that its usefulness become very low.

because before i knew that i can type any garbage in any editor window and undo all with single keystroke,

and now i have to be interrupted with yes/no popup.

 

Can i ask, why consoles do not ask you are you sure you want to face consequences of you pressed ctrl-c?

Undo works for ctrl-c. Fo ctrl-l it does not.

(I really wonder why we have this dissuasion: It was already last time said that if the key combination removes

code *without a change to get it back* it needs to warn, if people do not like the warning they should

a) implement undo for ctrl-l

b) remove the warning.

Marcus

On 09 Jan 2014, at 13:59, kilon alios <[hidden email]> wrote:

> yes this lead to endless debate, but I think this is good because we see diffirent ways into looking into things. I have to admit till today I never expected that someone would be against confirm dialogs to such extend of wanting them to be removed completely, but I can see now that for people that dont make mistakes or they rather live with these mistakes would prefer a non confirmation approach. Its good to discuss these things because next time I will try to "fix" something I will try to do it in a way that pleases most people and not interrupting their workflow.
>
> And its endless because people prefer diffirent things, and thats ok. Opinions should be expressed and be respected. Opinions matter to make software better . Afterall software is made to please people by doing the things they want . No software of course is perfect. :)
>
> I completely respect Igor's opinion. And Igor its great you have worked on these things and thank you :) You should promote your work I think progress should be more carefully logged so we can all appreciate the work that goes inside pharo :)
>

A editor key combination that looses code because is does not support undo is *wrong*. Completely and utterly *wrong*.

        Marcus