[Election] Candidate list with 11 candidates is final, 6 days until election starts!
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Re: [Election] Candidate list with 11 candidates is final, 6 days until election starts!
 
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El vie, 05-03-2010 a las 20:26 +0100, Michael Haupt escribió:
> Miguel, > > Am 05.03.2010 um 20:01 schrieb Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez <[hidden email] > m>: > > Ok, so if you give a truck and tell me, hey but look, you can > > disassemble it anytime you want and if you remove the parts you don't > > like you could get with a marvelous 2 seat coupé that is perfect for > > *your* problem (the one I am trying to solve using Squeak/Pharo) isn't > > really helping me. > > you're fun. :-) > > I believe the image you're using doesn't make sense. The truck would > be, whatever, VisualWorks. > > To stay in the domain, I suggest to adapt the metaphor as follows. > Squeak is a car with many bells and whistles installed, and Pharo, the > plain chassis, even without the bodywork. How does your comparison > work now? ;-) Ok, lets see. I now that I need a utility car and I am told and have verified that Squeak "car" with a lots of bells and whistles (that includes fog lights, super duper changing colors, am/fm radio, video games included, CD player for if you sometime need to entertain your passengers, etc) but I am in the orange transportation business. I need a car that is fast, doesn't distract the operator, doesn't have fog lights (I live in the most warm sea level city) and have a lot of clients, so I need to stack a lot of cars (that means that I need to buy only the bare necessary and not am/fm radio and cd players) and use that bare car to load the biggest number of oranges to give a service. Sure when I have a lot of free time to use the cd player and am/fm radio I will use the fancy car, but for my business, the one that put the food in my family table, I need a car for work and not for play. That is better? :) Cheers > > Best, > > Michael > > -- Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx |
Re: [Election] Candidate list with 11 candidates is final, 6 days until election starts!
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Hi Miguel,
Am 05.03.2010 um 20:46 schrieb Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez <[hidden email] m>: > That is better? :) nah. If yer intae oinchis, take a proper truck. ;-) Seriously, I see your point, and I think we agree that it really boils down to interest. So what? Neither is "better". Best, Michael |
Re: [Election] Candidate list with 11 candidates is final, 6 days until election starts!
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In reply to this post by Michael Haupt-3
>>>>> "Michael" == Michael Haupt <[hidden email]> writes:
Michael> To stay in the domain, I suggest to adapt the metaphor as follows. Squeak is Michael> a car with many bells and whistles installed, and Pharo, the plain chassis, Michael> even without the bodywork. How does your comparison work now? ;-) Squeak *currently* is a car with many bells and whistles. Squeak 4.1 will have fewer bells and whistles, and more aftermarket parts. Eventually, Squeak and Pharo may actually converge. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 <[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/> Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion |
Re: [Election] Candidate list with 11 candidates is final, 6 days until election starts!
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In reply to this post by Michael Haupt-3
El vie, 05-03-2010 a las 21:07 +0100, Michael Haupt escribió:
> Hi Miguel, > > Am 05.03.2010 um 20:46 schrieb Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez <[hidden email] > m>: > > That is better? :) > > nah. If yer intae oinchis, take a proper truck. ;-) > > Seriously, I see your point, and I think we agree that it really boils > down to interest. Exactly. And that is precisely the issue that Pharo is solving. Squeak don't give a cent about other uses outside of educational ones. They have its point, I concede. But Pharo is the way to go for a lot of people that want a medium for deploying enterprise application (web or desktop). I now that there were attempts to build a minimal squeak from Pavel and from Edgar (don't know if someone else) but they weren't Squeak, they were a single man efforts, and without the backing of Squeak they doomed. Squeak followed its own way, not listening to some important part of their community. Squeak was all about education (mainly), but the community wasn't. So Pharo gives a community maintained, minimal (even Pavel has made a new minimal Pharo core image that when ready very probably will become the new PharoCore that loads everything with Metacello configurations) kernel that we can use _now_ to deploy dozens of images at the time in production servers without wasting cpu cycles and bytes in thins not needed/used in the image deployed. > So what? Neither is "better". Fully agree, but for me and my users, Pharo is the way to go. Better to add to a tested core than delete from a big image and hope that it works. Cheers > > Best, > > Michael -- Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx |
Re: Status of Sport portability library (was [Election] Candidate list...)
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In reply to this post by Michael Haupt-3
Hi Michael,
On 05. 03. 2010 16:31, Michael Haupt wrote: > There used to be a thing called Sport (Smalltalk portability library). > I haven't checked its status - what shape is it in? Does anyone know? As a porter of Sport to Squeak and also as an active user of Sport in Swazoo, Aida, Scribo and many web apps I can say that Sport is obviously in good shape in many Smalltalk dialects: VisualWorks, Squeak/Pharo, Gemstone GLASS, Dolphin, GST, STX. It definitelly proved itself very usefull for portability of Sockets, Files and Times. Those Sport APIs are quite VW centric though. Anyway I think it is useful for Smalltalkers to look at Sport API for those three domains when thinking portability. Main problem of Sport IMO is its license, which is LGPL at VW and Gemstone, while according to its author Bruce Badger the implementation on Squeak/Phato can be licensed (by me as porter) as MIT. It would be good to be MIT everywhere, IMO. Best regards Janko -- Janko Mivšek AIDA/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si |
Re: [Election] Candidate list with 11 candidates is final, 6 days until election starts!
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In reply to this post by Miguel Cobá
On 05.03.2010, at 22:04, Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez wrote:
> > El vie, 05-03-2010 a las 21:07 +0100, Michael Haupt escribió: >> Hi Miguel, >> >> Am 05.03.2010 um 20:46 schrieb Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez <[hidden email] >> m>: >>> That is better? :) >> >> nah. If yer intae oinchis, take a proper truck. ;-) >> >> Seriously, I see your point, and I think we agree that it really boils >> down to interest. > > Exactly. And that is precisely the issue that Pharo is solving. Squeak > don't give a cent about other uses outside of educational ones. They > have its point, I concede. There is no point to concede, that's simply a false accusation. I have no problem discussing actual issues, but I'd appreciate if you took unfounded bashing elsewhere. Fact is, most of the developers on this list are *not* working on educational subjects. They want a practical Smalltalk that *includes* support for every conceivable use case. > But Pharo is the way to go for a lot of people that want a medium for > deploying enterprise application (web or desktop). As is Squeak. There are enterprise desktop applications as well as web ones built in it. But that's besides the point. Pharo is moving faster towards a smaller modular image. Squeak is on that way too, but we are slower because we are trying to not burn bridges. Refactoring something to be unloadable and reloadable is more work than just ripping out what's considered unnecessary (plus Squeakers consider less things unnecessary). *That* is the major current difference between Squeak and Pharo. But eventually I fully expect the two to become more similar as both get leaner and more modular. There could even be a point where e.g. Etoys would work as well on top of a Pharo kernel image as a Squeak kernel image. We just have differing approaches about how to get from here to there. Have fun, - Bert - |
Re: [Election] Candidate list with 11 candidates is final, 6 days until election starts!
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El vie, 05-03-2010 a las 22:43 +0100, Bert Freudenberg escribió:
> On 05.03.2010, at 22:04, Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez wrote: > > > > El vie, 05-03-2010 a las 21:07 +0100, Michael Haupt escribió: > >> Hi Miguel, > >> > >> Am 05.03.2010 um 20:46 schrieb Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez <[hidden email] > >> m>: > >>> That is better? :) > >> > >> nah. If yer intae oinchis, take a proper truck. ;-) > >> > >> Seriously, I see your point, and I think we agree that it really boils > >> down to interest. > > > > Exactly. And that is precisely the issue that Pharo is solving. Squeak > > don't give a cent about other uses outside of educational ones. They > > have its point, I concede. > > There is no point to concede, that's simply a false accusation. I have no problem discussing actual issues, but I'd appreciate if you took unfounded bashing elsewhere. Well that's your opinion, I maintain mine. > > Fact is, most of the developers on this list are *not* working on educational subjects. They want a practical Smalltalk that *includes* support for every conceivable use case. That is the problem, Squeak is like a swiss knife, with everything loaded just in case you needed. Most people just want or a knife or a screwdriver, not everything in a big unpractical tool. Pharo can be a knife or a screwdriver. Or can be a swiss knife if you want want (but this serves only during development time, not on deployment time). But hey, here we go again, discussions and discussions. I'm tired, keep discussing. I just answered this thread because someone said that Etoys will never be included in Pharo, and I said that if it were a loadable, independent-of-squeak package, it would have by now a ConfigurationOfEtoys in Pharo as just as Seaside have. About of Squeak directions, I don't care anymore. If someday Squeak can have every package loadable from squeaksource, good, I will load it from my Pharo image. If Squeak never get to that point and remains to use the monolitical image as a medium of conveying every and each package in the world, well, it is 2010, even MS windows can have Internet Explorer unloaded from the OS. The monolithic image pertains to the paleolithic era. So long. > > > But Pharo is the way to go for a lot of people that want a medium for > > deploying enterprise application (web or desktop). > > As is Squeak. There are enterprise desktop applications as well as web ones built in it. But that's besides the point. > > Pharo is moving faster towards a smaller modular image. Squeak is on that way too, but we are slower because we are trying to not burn bridges. Refactoring something to be unloadable and reloadable is more work than just ripping out what's considered unnecessary (plus Squeakers consider less things unnecessary). *That* is the major current difference between Squeak and Pharo. > > But eventually I fully expect the two to become more similar as both get leaner and more modular. There could even be a point where e.g. Etoys would work as well on top of a Pharo kernel image as a Squeak kernel image. We just have differing approaches about how to get from here to there. > > Have fun, > > - Bert - > > > -- Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx |
Re: [Election] Candidate list with 11 candidates is final, 6 days until election starts!
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In reply to this post by Miguel Cobá
Miguel,
Am 05.03.2010 um 22:04 schrieb Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez <[hidden email] m>: >> Seriously, I see your point, and I think we agree that it really >> boils >> down to interest. > > Exactly. And that is precisely the issue that Pharo is solving. Squeak > don't give a cent about other uses outside of educational ones. that is nonsense. Best, Michael |
Re: Status of Sport portability library (was [Election] Candidate list...)
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In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek
Hi Janko,
Am 05.03.2010 um 22:12 schrieb Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]>: > As a porter of Sport to Squeak and also as an active user of Sport in > Swazoo, Aida, Scribo and many web apps I can say that Sport is > obviously > in good shape in many Smalltalk dialects: VisualWorks, Squeak/Pharo, > Gemstone GLASS, Dolphin, GST, STX. good to know, thanks for the update! I'll keep it in mind, especially the licensing concerns. Best, Michael |
Re: [Election] Candidate list with 11 candidates is final, 6 days until election starts!
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In reply to this post by Michael Haupt-3
El vie, 05-03-2010 a las 23:14 +0100, Michael Haupt escribió:
> Miguel, > > Am 05.03.2010 um 22:04 schrieb Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez <[hidden email] > m>: > >> Seriously, I see your point, and I think we agree that it really > >> boils > >> down to interest. > > > > Exactly. And that is precisely the issue that Pharo is solving. Squeak > > don't give a cent about other uses outside of educational ones. > > that is nonsense. Oh yes? Well, what is Etoys? From the squeakland page: Etoys is . . . * an educational tool for teaching children powerful ideas in compelling ways * a media-rich authoring environment and visual programming system * a free software program that works on almost all personal computers First than anything "educational tool". Then Squeak refuses to remove Etoys from base image, even is in process the update and resync of Etoys with upstream squeakland code. If the board refuses to remove etoys that is for me that they have a preference for the educational use of squeak than the commercial use of squeak. Is that non-sense? -- Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx |
Re: [Election] Candidate list with 11 candidates is final, 6 days until election starts!
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On 3/5/2010 2:59 PM, Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez wrote:
> Oh yes? Well, what is Etoys? From the squeakland page: > > Etoys is . . . > * an educational tool for teaching children powerful ideas in > compelling ways > * a media-rich authoring environment and visual programming system > * a free software program that works on almost all personal > computers > > First than anything "educational tool". > > Then Squeak refuses to remove Etoys from base image, even is in process > the update and resync of Etoys with upstream squeakland code. > > If the board refuses to remove etoys that is for me that they have a > preference for the educational use of squeak than the commercial use of > squeak. > > Is that non-sense? Complete and utter. If I hadn't just received a reminder not to be too controversial I would use even stronger terms. Cheers, - Andreas |
Re: [Election] Candidate list with 11 candidates is final, 6 days until election starts!
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In reply to this post by Miguel Cobá
>>>>> "Miguel" == Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez <[hidden email]> writes:
Miguel> Then Squeak refuses to remove Etoys from base image, even is in process Miguel> the update and resync of Etoys with upstream squeakland code. I do believe the intent is to make etoys unloadable. If you've heard otherwise, can you poin at it, so that I can be up to date? Miguel> If the board refuses to remove etoys that is for me that they have a Miguel> preference for the educational use of squeak than the commercial use of Miguel> squeak. As a member of the board, I can tell you this is *not* an intent. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 <[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/> Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion |
Re: [Election] Candidate list with 11 candidates is final, 6 days until election starts!
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In reply to this post by Miguel Cobá
Hi Miguel, you have been down this road before with the folks here.
You seem to be terribly interested in Squeak's direction and future. Thank you for that! Respectfully, instead of highlighting the differences in our approaches, I would be more interested in hearing your thoughts about the part of Squeak that interests you, and how we might help the Pharo team achieve harvestation. Imagine the (oh so remote :) possibility, that even a positive-feedback loop could form; whereby Pharo's harvestation of the interesting part(s) of Squeak, facilitated Squeak to harvest back the modularized/enhanced version for itself. Cherry-picking these "interesting" bits back and forth, while maintaining each our individual core-missions, could end resulting in both communities going further. Kind Regards, Chris 2010/3/5 Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez <[hidden email]>: > El vie, 05-03-2010 a las 23:14 +0100, Michael Haupt escribió: >> Miguel, >> >> Am 05.03.2010 um 22:04 schrieb Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez <[hidden email] >> m>: >> >> Seriously, I see your point, and I think we agree that it really >> >> boils >> >> down to interest. >> > >> > Exactly. And that is precisely the issue that Pharo is solving. Squeak >> > don't give a cent about other uses outside of educational ones. >> >> that is nonsense. > > Oh yes? Well, what is Etoys? From the squeakland page: > > Etoys is . . . > * an educational tool for teaching children powerful ideas in > compelling ways > * a media-rich authoring environment and visual programming system > * a free software program that works on almost all personal > computers > > First than anything "educational tool". > > Then Squeak refuses to remove Etoys from base image, even is in process > the update and resync of Etoys with upstream squeakland code. > > If the board refuses to remove etoys that is for me that they have a > preference for the educational use of squeak than the commercial use of > squeak. > > Is that non-sense? > -- > Miguel Cobá > http://miguel.leugim.com.mx > > > |
Re: [Election] Candidate list with 11 candidates is final, 6 days until election starts!
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In reply to this post by Randal L. Schwartz
Am I going crazy or wasn't it just over a month ago that it was announced that you can unload and reload etoys from a trunk image?
http://n4.nabble.com/Etoys-package-now-un-re-loadable-td997991.html#a998847 Mike Hales Engineering Manager KnowledgeScape www.kscape.com 2010/3/5 Randal L. Schwartz <[hidden email]> >>>>> "Miguel" == Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez <[hidden email]> writes: |
Re: [Election] Candidate list with 11 candidates is final, 6 days until election starts!
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>>>>> "Mike" == Mike Hales <[hidden email]> writes:
Mike> Am I going crazy or wasn't it just over a month ago that it was announced Mike> that you *can* unload and reload etoys from a trunk image? Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too, so this is really coming out of left field. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 <[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/> Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion |
Re: [Election] Candidate list with 11 candidates is final, 6 days until election starts!
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In reply to this post by Miguel Cobá
2010/3/6 Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez <[hidden email]>:
> El vie, 05-03-2010 a las 22:43 +0100, Bert Freudenberg escribió: >> On 05.03.2010, at 22:04, Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez wrote: >> > >> > El vie, 05-03-2010 a las 21:07 +0100, Michael Haupt escribió: >> >> Hi Miguel, >> >> >> >> Am 05.03.2010 um 20:46 schrieb Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez <[hidden email] >> >> m>: >> >>> That is better? :) >> >> >> >> nah. If yer intae oinchis, take a proper truck. ;-) >> >> >> >> Seriously, I see your point, and I think we agree that it really boils >> >> down to interest. >> > >> > Exactly. And that is precisely the issue that Pharo is solving. Squeak >> > don't give a cent about other uses outside of educational ones. They >> > have its point, I concede. >> >> There is no point to concede, that's simply a false accusation. I have no problem discussing actual issues, but I'd appreciate if you took unfounded bashing elsewhere. > > Well that's your opinion, I maintain mine. > >> >> Fact is, most of the developers on this list are *not* working on educational subjects. They want a practical Smalltalk that *includes* support for every conceivable use case. > > That is the problem, Squeak is like a swiss knife, with everything > loaded just in case you needed. Most people just want or a knife or a > screwdriver, not everything in a big unpractical tool. Pharo can be a > knife or a screwdriver. Or can be a swiss knife if you want want (but > this serves only during development time, not on deployment time). > > in such manner. I know that in both camps we want to have clean & lean things, which easy to load and unload. So, where you see difference, i see the commonality. The difference lies mainly in other field - in what way to achieve this, what tools to use, how to organize tasks etc etc. > But hey, here we go again, discussions and discussions. I'm tired, keep > discussing. I just answered this thread because someone said that Etoys > will never be included in Pharo, and I said that if it were a loadable, > independent-of-squeak package, it would have by now a > ConfigurationOfEtoys in Pharo as just as Seaside have. > > About of Squeak directions, I don't care anymore. If someday Squeak can > have every package loadable from squeaksource, good, I will load it from > my Pharo image. If Squeak never get to that point and remains to use the > monolitical image as a medium of conveying every and each package in the > world, well, it is 2010, even MS windows can have Internet Explorer > unloaded from the OS. The monolithic image pertains to the paleolithic > era. > > So long. > > > >> >> > But Pharo is the way to go for a lot of people that want a medium for >> > deploying enterprise application (web or desktop). >> >> As is Squeak. There are enterprise desktop applications as well as web ones built in it. But that's besides the point. >> >> Pharo is moving faster towards a smaller modular image. Squeak is on that way too, but we are slower because we are trying to not burn bridges. Refactoring something to be unloadable and reloadable is more work than just ripping out what's considered unnecessary (plus Squeakers consider less things unnecessary). *That* is the major current difference between Squeak and Pharo. >> >> But eventually I fully expect the two to become more similar as both get leaner and more modular. There could even be a point where e.g. Etoys would work as well on top of a Pharo kernel image as a Squeak kernel image. We just have differing approaches about how to get from here to there. >> >> Have fun, >> >> - Bert - >> >> >> > > -- > Miguel Cobá > http://miguel.leugim.com.mx > > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. |
Re: [Election] Candidate list with 11 candidates is final, 6 days until election starts!
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In reply to this post by Miguel Cobá
Miguel,
Am 05.03.2010 um 23:12 schrieb Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez <[hidden email] m>: > I just answered this thread because someone said that Etoys > will never be included in Pharo, I never said that. Just re-read. > Best, Michael |
Re: [Election] Candidate list with 11 candidates is final, 6 days until election starts!
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In reply to this post by Miguel Cobá
Miguel,
I increasingly get the impression that there is no point in arguing with you, so, one last time ... Am 05.03.2010 um 23:59 schrieb Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez <[hidden email] m>: > First than anything "educational tool". Etoys is not the only thing you can do with Squeak. > Then Squeak refuses to remove Etoys from base image, ... It is unloadable. > Is that non-sense? Yup, Michael |
Re: [Election] Candidate list with 11 candidates is final, 6 days until election starts!
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In reply to this post by Chris Muller-3
2010/3/6 Chris Muller <[hidden email]>:
> Hi Miguel, you have been down this road before with the folks here. > You seem to be terribly interested in Squeak's direction and future. > Thank you for that! Respectfully, instead of highlighting the > differences in our approaches, I would be more interested in hearing > your thoughts about the part of Squeak that interests you, and how we > might help the Pharo team achieve harvestation. > > Imagine the (oh so remote :) possibility, that even a > positive-feedback loop could form; whereby Pharo's harvestation of the > interesting part(s) of Squeak, facilitated Squeak to harvest back the > modularized/enhanced version for itself. > > Cherry-picking these "interesting" bits back and forth, while > maintaining each our individual core-missions, could end resulting in > both communities going further. > > Kind Regards, > Chris > Though I find Miguel's argument unfounded and bellicose, this is at least a good spin off, thank you Chris for elevating the debate! The first thing I'd like to see is minimum coordination to adopt a common package delimitation. Nicolas > > 2010/3/5 Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez <[hidden email]>: >> El vie, 05-03-2010 a las 23:14 +0100, Michael Haupt escribió: >>> Miguel, >>> >>> Am 05.03.2010 um 22:04 schrieb Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez <[hidden email] >>> m>: >>> >> Seriously, I see your point, and I think we agree that it really >>> >> boils >>> >> down to interest. >>> > >>> > Exactly. And that is precisely the issue that Pharo is solving. Squeak >>> > don't give a cent about other uses outside of educational ones. >>> >>> that is nonsense. >> >> Oh yes? Well, what is Etoys? From the squeakland page: >> >> Etoys is . . . >> * an educational tool for teaching children powerful ideas in >> compelling ways >> * a media-rich authoring environment and visual programming system >> * a free software program that works on almost all personal >> computers >> >> First than anything "educational tool". >> >> Then Squeak refuses to remove Etoys from base image, even is in process >> the update and resync of Etoys with upstream squeakland code. >> >> If the board refuses to remove etoys that is for me that they have a >> preference for the educational use of squeak than the commercial use of >> squeak. >> >> Is that non-sense? >> -- >> Miguel Cobá >> http://miguel.leugim.com.mx >> >> >> > > |
Re: [Election] Candidate list with 11 candidates is final, 6 days until election starts!
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In reply to this post by Miguel Cobá
On 3/5/10 7:04 PM, "Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez" <[hidden email]> wrote: > I now that there were attempts to build a minimal squeak from Pavel and > from Edgar (don't know if someone else) but they weren't Squeak, they > were a single man efforts, and without the backing of Squeak they > doomed. For the record, as you name me and I was nominated future Release Team manager and also run for one chair on Board , I need say some. First, I have the FunSqueak all in one Swiss knife growing safely. Second , once 4.1 start and more hard if I become Board member, try to go Sl3 as you see in http://ftp.squeak.org/various_images/SqueakLight/SL3.11-9375-alpha.zip The vision Ralph and me start in 3.10, unload all what could load later is closer now. If you think modular is important , vote for me. If you think web is important , vote for me. I have many members of SqueakRos which maybe do not vote, but was close enough for remember me each day this point. Don't fight us. Seat and see. My dear Pharopatas could have the lead now, but we still heating the engine ...:=) Edgar |
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