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GT-Spotter dive in shortcut

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Nicolai Hess-3-2

GT-Spotter dive in shortcut

Why did the shortcut for dive-in element/category changed from

cmd+right

cmd+shift+right

to

ctrl+right
ctrl+shift+right

I know there were some discussions about this and that the behavior changed some

time ago, but I don't know the rational behind this.

thanks

nicolai

EstebanLM

Re: GT-Spotter dive in shortcut

is most probably an error :S

> On 07 Jun 2016, at 12:55, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Why did the shortcut for dive-in element/category changed from
> cmd+right
> cmd+shift+right
>
> to
>
> ctrl+right
> ctrl+shift+right
>
> I know there were some discussions about this and that the behavior changed some
> time ago, but I don't know the rational behind this.
>
>
> thanks
> nicolai
>
>

Henrik Nergaard

Re: GT-Spotter dive in shortcut

In reply to this post by Nicolai Hess-3-2

IIRC the shortcut is not changed, it still is meta+right(+shift). Only the tooltip was changed to display the system specific key instead of “cmd” so for Windows/Linux this would be “ctrl”.

Best regards,

Henrik

From: Pharo-dev [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nicolai Hess
Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 12:56 PM
To: Pharo Development List <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Pharo-dev] GT-Spotter dive in shortcut

Why did the shortcut for dive-in element/category changed from

cmd+right

cmd+shift+right

to

ctrl+right
ctrl+shift+right

I know there were some discussions about this and that the behavior changed some

time ago, but I don't know the rational behind this.

thanks

nicolai

Nicolai Hess-3-2

Re: GT-Spotter dive in shortcut

Am 07.06.2016 1:56 nachm. schrieb "Henrik Nergaard" <[hidden email]>:
>
> IIRC the shortcut is not changed, it still is meta+right(+shift). Only the tooltip was changed to display the system specific key instead of “cmd” so for Windows/Linux this would be “ctrl”.

No, it changed

>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Henrik
>
>
>
> From: Pharo-dev [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nicolai Hess
> Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 12:56 PM
> To: Pharo Development List <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Pharo-dev] GT-Spotter dive in shortcut
>
>
>
> Why did the shortcut for dive-in element/category changed from
>
> cmd+right
>
> cmd+shift+right
>
> to
>
> ctrl+right
> ctrl+shift+right
>
> I know there were some discussions about this and that the behavior changed some
>
> time ago, but I don't know the rational behind this.
>
> thanks
>
> nicolai
>
>

Nicolai Hess-3-2

Re: GT-Spotter dive in shortcut

2016-06-07 13:57 GMT+02:00 Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]>:

Am 07.06.2016 1:56 nachm. schrieb "Henrik Nergaard" <[hidden email]>:
>
> IIRC the shortcut is not changed, it still is meta+right(+shift). Only the tooltip was changed to display the system specific key instead of “cmd” so for Windows/Linux this would be “ctrl”.

No, it changed

In #40624, for example, it was cmd (alt-key on windows ) right/shift right

>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Henrik
>
>
>
> From: Pharo-dev [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nicolai Hess
> Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 12:56 PM
> To: Pharo Development List <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Pharo-dev] GT-Spotter dive in shortcut
>
>
>
> Why did the shortcut for dive-in element/category changed from
>
> cmd+right
>
> cmd+shift+right
>
> to
>
> ctrl+right
> ctrl+shift+right
>
> I know there were some discussions about this and that the behavior changed some
>
> time ago, but I don't know the rational behind this.
>
> thanks
>
> nicolai
>
>

Andrei Chis

Re: GT-Spotter dive in shortcut

During Pharo 5 most shortcuts from tools were changed to use "meta" instead of cmd.

Cheers,

Andrei

On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:

2016-06-07 13:57 GMT+02:00 Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]>:

Am 07.06.2016 1:56 nachm. schrieb "Henrik Nergaard" <[hidden email]>:
>
> IIRC the shortcut is not changed, it still is meta+right(+shift). Only the tooltip was changed to display the system specific key instead of “cmd” so for Windows/Linux this would be “ctrl”.

No, it changed
In #40624, for example, it was cmd (alt-key on windows ) right/shift right

>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Henrik
>
>
>
> From: Pharo-dev [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nicolai Hess
> Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 12:56 PM
> To: Pharo Development List <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Pharo-dev] GT-Spotter dive in shortcut
>
>
>
> Why did the shortcut for dive-in element/category changed from
>
> cmd+right
>
> cmd+shift+right
>
> to
>
> ctrl+right
> ctrl+shift+right
>
> I know there were some discussions about this and that the behavior changed some
>
> time ago, but I don't know the rational behind this.
>
> thanks
>
> nicolai
>
>

Nicolai Hess-3-2

Re: GT-Spotter dive in shortcut

2016-06-07 15:08 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <[hidden email]>:

During Pharo 5 most shortcuts from tools were changed to use "meta" instead of cmd.

Cheers,
Andrei

Can we change this for spotter ? cmd instead of meta

ctrl left/right is often used for text components to move to next/previous word.

On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:

2016-06-07 13:57 GMT+02:00 Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]>:

Am 07.06.2016 1:56 nachm. schrieb "Henrik Nergaard" <[hidden email]>:
>
> IIRC the shortcut is not changed, it still is meta+right(+shift). Only the tooltip was changed to display the system specific key instead of “cmd” so for Windows/Linux this would be “ctrl”.

No, it changed
In #40624, for example, it was cmd (alt-key on windows ) right/shift right

>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Henrik
>
>
>
> From: Pharo-dev [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nicolai Hess
> Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 12:56 PM
> To: Pharo Development List <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Pharo-dev] GT-Spotter dive in shortcut
>
>
>
> Why did the shortcut for dive-in element/category changed from
>
> cmd+right
>
> cmd+shift+right
>
> to
>
> ctrl+right
> ctrl+shift+right
>
> I know there were some discussions about this and that the behavior changed some
>
> time ago, but I don't know the rational behind this.
>
> thanks
>
> nicolai
>
>

Andrei Chis

Re: GT-Spotter dive in shortcut

We can, but I remember there were some discussions and it was decided to use meta everywhere.

Cheers,

Andrei

On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:

2016-06-07 15:08 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <[hidden email]>:
During Pharo 5 most shortcuts from tools were changed to use "meta" instead of cmd.

Cheers,
Andrei

Can we change this for spotter ? cmd instead of meta

ctrl left/right is often used for text components to move to next/previous word.

On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:

2016-06-07 13:57 GMT+02:00 Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]>:

Am 07.06.2016 1:56 nachm. schrieb "Henrik Nergaard" <[hidden email]>:
>
> IIRC the shortcut is not changed, it still is meta+right(+shift). Only the tooltip was changed to display the system specific key instead of “cmd” so for Windows/Linux this would be “ctrl”.

No, it changed
In #40624, for example, it was cmd (alt-key on windows ) right/shift right

>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Henrik
>
>
>
> From: Pharo-dev [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nicolai Hess
> Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 12:56 PM
> To: Pharo Development List <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Pharo-dev] GT-Spotter dive in shortcut
>
>
>
> Why did the shortcut for dive-in element/category changed from
>
> cmd+right
>
> cmd+shift+right
>
> to
>
> ctrl+right
> ctrl+shift+right
>
> I know there were some discussions about this and that the behavior changed some
>
> time ago, but I don't know the rational behind this.
>
> thanks
>
> nicolai
>
>

Nicolai Hess-3-2

Re: GT-Spotter dive in shortcut

2016-06-07 16:12 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <[hidden email]>:

We can, but I remember there were some discussions and it was decided to use meta everywhere.

but using meta everywhere does not help if there are conflicts with other shortcuts.

Cheers,
Andrei

On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:

2016-06-07 15:08 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <[hidden email]>:
During Pharo 5 most shortcuts from tools were changed to use "meta" instead of cmd.

Cheers,
Andrei

Can we change this for spotter ? cmd instead of meta

ctrl left/right is often used for text components to move to next/previous word.

On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:

2016-06-07 13:57 GMT+02:00 Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]>:

Am 07.06.2016 1:56 nachm. schrieb "Henrik Nergaard" <[hidden email]>:
>
> IIRC the shortcut is not changed, it still is meta+right(+shift). Only the tooltip was changed to display the system specific key instead of “cmd” so for Windows/Linux this would be “ctrl”.

No, it changed
In #40624, for example, it was cmd (alt-key on windows ) right/shift right

>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Henrik
>
>
>
> From: Pharo-dev [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nicolai Hess
> Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 12:56 PM
> To: Pharo Development List <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Pharo-dev] GT-Spotter dive in shortcut
>
>
>
> Why did the shortcut for dive-in element/category changed from
>
> cmd+right
>
> cmd+shift+right
>
> to
>
> ctrl+right
> ctrl+shift+right
>
> I know there were some discussions about this and that the behavior changed some
>
> time ago, but I don't know the rational behind this.
>
> thanks
>
> nicolai
>
>

Guillermo Polito

Re: GT-Spotter dive in shortcut

For coherence, the vast majority of shortcuts should follow the standard
in all applications. Most shortcuts use cmd in mac, and ctrl in unix/win.

Then there are exceptions of course. I'd like exceptions to be that,
exceptions, and well documented. I'm not against using #alt for
particular cases (for example, it is often used in windows/linux for
menu navigation).

Also, I'd like shortcuts that are meant to be used with #alt to use #alt
and not #command. Because #command means the windows key in windows.

That said, If the problem are shortcut conflicts, I think it would be
nice at some moment to make a step back, look at the big picture and
design shortcuts for the entire system instead of patching place over
place :).

Guille
-------- Original Message --------

>
>
> 2016-06-07 16:12 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>>:
>
> We can, but I remember there were some discussions and it was
> decided to use meta everywhere.
>
>
>
> but using meta everywhere does not help if there are conflicts with
> other shortcuts.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Andrei
>
> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Nicolai Hess
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>
>
> 2016-06-07 15:08 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>:
>
> During Pharo 5 most shortcuts from tools were changed to
> use "meta" instead of cmd.
>
> Cheers,
> Andrei
>
>
> Can we change this for spotter ? cmd instead of meta
>
> ctrl left/right is often used for text components to move to
> next/previous word.
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Nicolai Hess
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>
>
> 2016-06-07 13:57 GMT+02:00 Nicolai Hess
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>:
>
>
> Am 07.06.2016 1:56 nachm. schrieb "Henrik
> Nergaard" <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>>:
> >
> > IIRC the shortcut is not changed, it still is
> meta+right(+shift). Only the tooltip was changed
> to display the system specific key instead of
> “cmd” so for Windows/Linux this would be “ctrl”.
>
> No, it changed
>
> In #40624, for example, it was cmd (alt-key on windows
> ) right/shift right
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Henrik
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Pharo-dev
> [mailto:[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>] On
> Behalf Of Nicolai Hess
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 12:56 PM
> > To: Pharo Development List
> <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>>
> > Subject: [Pharo-dev] GT-Spotter dive in shortcut
> >
> >
> >
> > Why did the shortcut for dive-in
> element/category changed from
> >
> > cmd+right
> >
> > cmd+shift+right
> >
> > to
> >
> > ctrl+right
> > ctrl+shift+right
> >
> > I know there were some discussions about this
> and that the behavior changed some
> >
> > time ago, but I don't know the rational behind this.
> >
> > thanks
> >
> > nicolai
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Nicolai Hess-3-2

Re: GT-Spotter dive in shortcut

In reply to this post by Andrei Chis

2016-06-07 16:12 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <[hidden email]>:

We can, but I remember there were some discussions and it was decided to use meta everywhere.

Cheers,
Andrei

If we don't change this, I'll use cmd+left cmd+right in rubric, but this is bad, because all other navigate/select+navigate shortcuts would use meta as shortcut modifier.

What are the arguments for using meta for dive-in/out shortcuts ?

On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:

2016-06-07 15:08 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <[hidden email]>:
During Pharo 5 most shortcuts from tools were changed to use "meta" instead of cmd.

Cheers,
Andrei

Can we change this for spotter ? cmd instead of meta

ctrl left/right is often used for text components to move to next/previous word.

On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:

2016-06-07 13:57 GMT+02:00 Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]>:

Am 07.06.2016 1:56 nachm. schrieb "Henrik Nergaard" <[hidden email]>:
>
> IIRC the shortcut is not changed, it still is meta+right(+shift). Only the tooltip was changed to display the system specific key instead of “cmd” so for Windows/Linux this would be “ctrl”.

No, it changed
In #40624, for example, it was cmd (alt-key on windows ) right/shift right

>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Henrik
>
>
>
> From: Pharo-dev [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nicolai Hess
> Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 12:56 PM
> To: Pharo Development List <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Pharo-dev] GT-Spotter dive in shortcut
>
>
>
> Why did the shortcut for dive-in element/category changed from
>
> cmd+right
>
> cmd+shift+right
>
> to
>
> ctrl+right
> ctrl+shift+right
>
> I know there were some discussions about this and that the behavior changed some
>
> time ago, but I don't know the rational behind this.
>
> thanks
>
> nicolai
>
>

Tudor Girba-2

Re: GT-Spotter dive in shortcut

Hi,

I think we are mixing the topics a bit. The #meta discussion is not specific to Spotter actions.

The idea was to offer a uniform support of keybindings in Pharo, in general. Then Guille etal added #meta to have a predictable mapping. All #cmd places were changed to #meta, and since then we should not use explicitly #cmd anymore, except when we know we are on Mac. For a portable modifier, we should only use #meta.

At this point, both Rubric and Spotter use #meta. #meta maps on:
- Mac: Command
- Win: Control
- Linus: Control

This means that #alt is now a portable modifier that will not conflict with #meta, so we can now think of using that one in combination with #meta.

For text navigation, the situation is a bit complicated. On Win/Linux, Ctrl+Right/Left moves the cursor between words. On Mac, Cmd+Right/Left moves the cursor at the end/beginning of line. So, using #meta for text navigation between words is not entirely accurate. We should use #ctrl instead.

This would anyway mean that it would be an option to use #alt for Spotter now. But, if we are at it, would anyone be interested in working on revisiting the overall keybindings in Pharo?

Cheers,
Doru

> On Jun 16, 2016, at 10:22 AM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> 2016-06-07 16:12 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <[hidden email]>:
> We can, but I remember there were some discussions and it was decided to use meta everywhere.
>
> Cheers,
> Andrei
>
>
> If we don't change this, I'll use cmd+left cmd+right in rubric, but this is bad, because all other navigate/select+navigate shortcuts would use meta as shortcut modifier.
>
> What are the arguments for using meta for dive-in/out shortcuts ?
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> 2016-06-07 15:08 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <[hidden email]>:
> During Pharo 5 most shortcuts from tools were changed to use "meta" instead of cmd.
>
> Cheers,
> Andrei
>
> Can we change this for spotter ? cmd instead of meta
>
> ctrl left/right is often used for text components to move to next/previous word.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> 2016-06-07 13:57 GMT+02:00 Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]>:
>
> Am 07.06.2016 1:56 nachm. schrieb "Henrik Nergaard" <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > IIRC the shortcut is not changed, it still is meta+right(+shift). Only the tooltip was changed to display the system specific key instead of “cmd” so for Windows/Linux this would be “ctrl”.
>
>
> No, it changed
>
> In #40624, for example, it was cmd (alt-key on windows ) right/shift right
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Henrik
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Pharo-dev [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nicolai Hess
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 12:56 PM
> > To: Pharo Development List <[hidden email]>
> > Subject: [Pharo-dev] GT-Spotter dive in shortcut
> >
> >
> >
> > Why did the shortcut for dive-in element/category changed from
> >
> > cmd+right
> >
> > cmd+shift+right
> >
> > to
> >
> > ctrl+right
> > ctrl+shift+right
> >
> > I know there were some discussions about this and that the behavior changed some
> >
> > time ago, but I don't know the rational behind this.
> >
> > thanks
> >
> > nicolai
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com

"If you interrupt the barber while he is cutting your hair,
you will end up with a messy haircut."

Nicolai Hess-3-2

Re: GT-Spotter dive in shortcut

2016-06-16 22:45 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:

Hi,

I think we are mixing the topics a bit. The #meta discussion is not specific to Spotter actions.

On windows, it is. Because on windows #meta is mapped to #ctrl, and you can use ctrl+left/right for moving by "words". This works in a browser, an editor, pharos text components but *not* in spotter

because spotter redefines this keystrokes for dive in /out.

Currently, both ctrl+left/right and alt+left/right (and shift for selection) are working in rubric for moving by "word". But only because the (old) shortcut (cmd/shiftcmd) action dispatcher

explicitly allows both. If we want to remove this and use the KMDispatcher framework only, we *need* to define only one mapping, otherwise you won't be able to use dive in/out in spotter.

(Or you could modify spotter to register(overwrite) the mapping on the textfield instead of the spotter morph).

The idea was to offer a uniform support of keybindings in Pharo, in general.

exactly, and using ctrl+left/right uniformly in editor and external tools would be great.

Then Guille etal added #meta to have a predictable mapping.

Yes, and to make this work, we have to remove the old keymapping implementation (cmd/shiftcmd action map) and use the KMDispatcher registration. But I can only continue with this

if we have a decision what to use, (windows/linux: either ctrl+arrow or alt+arrow, mac: whatever is used on a mac for text navigation)

All #cmd places were changed to #meta, and since then we should not use explicitly #cmd anymore, except when we know we are on Mac. For a portable modifier, we should only use #meta.

At this point, both Rubric and Spotter use #meta. #meta maps on:
- Mac: Command
- Win: Control
- Linus: Control

This means that #alt is now a portable modifier that will not conflict with #meta, so we can now think of using that one in combination with #meta.

You can not use #alt modifier on windows. A shortcut definition like

$g alt

is never recognized. You have to define it

$g command

to make it work with as "alt+g"-keycombination (on windows).

For text navigation, the situation is a bit complicated. On Win/Linux, Ctrl+Right/Left moves the cursor between words. On Mac, Cmd+Right/Left moves the cursor at the end/beginning of line. So, using #meta for text navigation between words is not entirely accurate. We should use #ctrl instead.

This would anyway mean that it would be an option to use #alt for Spotter now. But, if we are at it, would anyone be interested in working on revisiting the overall keybindings in Pharo?

Cheers,
Doru

> On Jun 16, 2016, at 10:22 AM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> 2016-06-07 16:12 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <[hidden email]>:
> We can, but I remember there were some discussions and it was decided to use meta everywhere.
>
> Cheers,
> Andrei
>
>
> If we don't change this, I'll use cmd+left cmd+right in rubric, but this is bad, because all other navigate/select+navigate shortcuts would use meta as shortcut modifier.
>
> What are the arguments for using meta for dive-in/out shortcuts ?
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> 2016-06-07 15:08 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <[hidden email]>:
> During Pharo 5 most shortcuts from tools were changed to use "meta" instead of cmd.
>
> Cheers,
> Andrei
>
> Can we change this for spotter ? cmd instead of meta
>
> ctrl left/right is often used for text components to move to next/previous word.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> 2016-06-07 13:57 GMT+02:00 Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]>:
>
> Am 07.06.2016 1:56 nachm. schrieb "Henrik Nergaard" <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > IIRC the shortcut is not changed, it still is meta+right(+shift). Only the tooltip was changed to display the system specific key instead of “cmd” so for Windows/Linux this would be “ctrl”.
>
>
> No, it changed
>
> In #40624, for example, it was cmd (alt-key on windows ) right/shift right
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Henrik
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Pharo-dev [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nicolai Hess
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 12:56 PM
> > To: Pharo Development List <[hidden email]>
> > Subject: [Pharo-dev] GT-Spotter dive in shortcut
> >
> >
> >
> > Why did the shortcut for dive-in element/category changed from
> >
> > cmd+right
> >
> > cmd+shift+right
> >
> > to
> >
> > ctrl+right
> > ctrl+shift+right
> >
> > I know there were some discussions about this and that the behavior changed some
> >
> > time ago, but I don't know the rational behind this.
> >
> > thanks
> >
> > nicolai
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com

"If you interrupt the barber while he is cutting your hair,
you will end up with a messy haircut."

Tudor Girba-2

Re: GT-Spotter dive in shortcut

Hi Nicolai,

I am a bit removed from the code details at the moment, and I think I need to step back a bit :).

If I understand correctly, you are saying that:
1. defining bindings with #alt does not work on Windows. This means that we should fix this one. Using Cmd should not be a solution here.
2. defining the bindings for Spotter can indeed be made to override the ones in the text editor if needed. But, I think we can start thinking about using #alt.

Does this make sense?

Cheers,
Doru

> On Jun 17, 2016, at 12:12 AM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> 2016-06-16 22:45 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:
> Hi,
>
> I think we are mixing the topics a bit. The #meta discussion is not specific to Spotter actions.
>
> On windows, it is. Because on windows #meta is mapped to #ctrl, and you can use ctrl+left/right for moving by "words". This works in a browser, an editor, pharos text components but *not* in spotter
> because spotter redefines this keystrokes for dive in /out.
> Currently, both ctrl+left/right and alt+left/right (and shift for selection) are working in rubric for moving by "word". But only because the (old) shortcut (cmd/shiftcmd) action dispatcher
> explicitly allows both. If we want to remove this and use the KMDispatcher framework only, we *need* to define only one mapping, otherwise you won't be able to use dive in/out in spotter.
> (Or you could modify spotter to register(overwrite) the mapping on the textfield instead of the spotter morph).
>
>
> The idea was to offer a uniform support of keybindings in Pharo, in general.
>
> exactly, and using ctrl+left/right uniformly in editor and external tools would be great.
>
> Then Guille etal added #meta to have a predictable mapping.
>
> Yes, and to make this work, we have to remove the old keymapping implementation (cmd/shiftcmd action map) and use the KMDispatcher registration. But I can only continue with this
> if we have a decision what to use, (windows/linux: either ctrl+arrow or alt+arrow, mac: whatever is used on a mac for text navigation)
>
> All #cmd places were changed to #meta, and since then we should not use explicitly #cmd anymore, except when we know we are on Mac. For a portable modifier, we should only use #meta.
>
> At this point, both Rubric and Spotter use #meta. #meta maps on:
> - Mac: Command
> - Win: Control
> - Linus: Control
>
> This means that #alt is now a portable modifier that will not conflict with #meta, so we can now think of using that one in combination with #meta.
>
> You can not use #alt modifier on windows. A shortcut definition like
> $g alt
> is never recognized. You have to define it
> $g command
> to make it work with as "alt+g"-keycombination (on windows).
>
>
>
> For text navigation, the situation is a bit complicated. On Win/Linux, Ctrl+Right/Left moves the cursor between words. On Mac, Cmd+Right/Left moves the cursor at the end/beginning of line. So, using #meta for text navigation between words is not entirely accurate. We should use #ctrl instead.
>
> This would anyway mean that it would be an option to use #alt for Spotter now. But, if we are at it, would anyone be interested in working on revisiting the overall keybindings in Pharo?
>
> Cheers,
> Doru
>
>
>
> > On Jun 16, 2016, at 10:22 AM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > 2016-06-07 16:12 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <[hidden email]>:
> > We can, but I remember there were some discussions and it was decided to use meta everywhere.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Andrei
> >
> >
> > If we don't change this, I'll use cmd+left cmd+right in rubric, but this is bad, because all other navigate/select+navigate shortcuts would use meta as shortcut modifier.
> >
> > What are the arguments for using meta for dive-in/out shortcuts ?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > 2016-06-07 15:08 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <[hidden email]>:
> > During Pharo 5 most shortcuts from tools were changed to use "meta" instead of cmd.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Andrei
> >
> > Can we change this for spotter ? cmd instead of meta
> >
> > ctrl left/right is often used for text components to move to next/previous word.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > 2016-06-07 13:57 GMT+02:00 Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > Am 07.06.2016 1:56 nachm. schrieb "Henrik Nergaard" <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > IIRC the shortcut is not changed, it still is meta+right(+shift). Only the tooltip was changed to display the system specific key instead of “cmd” so for Windows/Linux this would be “ctrl”.
> >
> >
> > No, it changed
> >
> > In #40624, for example, it was cmd (alt-key on windows ) right/shift right
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Henrik
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Pharo-dev [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nicolai Hess
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 12:56 PM
> > > To: Pharo Development List <[hidden email]>
> > > Subject: [Pharo-dev] GT-Spotter dive in shortcut
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Why did the shortcut for dive-in element/category changed from
> > >
> > > cmd+right
> > >
> > > cmd+shift+right
> > >
> > > to
> > >
> > > ctrl+right
> > > ctrl+shift+right
> > >
> > > I know there were some discussions about this and that the behavior changed some
> > >
> > > time ago, but I don't know the rational behind this.
> > >
> > > thanks
> > >
> > > nicolai
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> www.tudorgirba.com
> www.feenk.com
>
> "If you interrupt the barber while he is cutting your hair,
> you will end up with a messy haircut."
>
>
>

--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com

"Quality cannot be an afterthought."

Nicolai Hess-3-2

Re: GT-Spotter dive in shortcut

2016-06-17 14:35 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:

Hi Nicolai,

I am a bit removed from the code details at the moment, and I think I need to step back a bit :).

If I understand correctly, you are saying that:
1. defining bindings with #alt does not work on Windows. This means that we should fix this one. Using Cmd should not be a solution here.

As far as I know, this is on purpose. A key pressed with windows (left) alt modified is mapped to "command"

from vm source:

*    3) The modifier keys are mapped as follows:
*
*        Mac    | Win32
*       --------------------
*       Shift   -> Shift
*       Ctrl    -> Ctrl
*       Command -> Left ALT
*       Option -> Right ALT

(but actually, the right ALT key does not generate any keystrokes (only key down/up) and it is treated as ctrl+alt (windows right Alt key is "Alt Gr")

2. defining the bindings for Spotter can indeed be made to override the ones in the text editor if needed. But, I think we can start thinking about using #alt.

using alt+right on windows/linux and

command + right on mac

for dive-in or for text navigation?

Is there a default keycombination for word-moving in text components for mac ?

Does this make sense?

Cheers,
Doru

> On Jun 17, 2016, at 12:12 AM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> 2016-06-16 22:45 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:
> Hi,
>
> I think we are mixing the topics a bit. The #meta discussion is not specific to Spotter actions.
>
> On windows, it is. Because on windows #meta is mapped to #ctrl, and you can use ctrl+left/right for moving by "words". This works in a browser, an editor, pharos text components but *not* in spotter
> because spotter redefines this keystrokes for dive in /out.
> Currently, both ctrl+left/right and alt+left/right (and shift for selection) are working in rubric for moving by "word". But only because the (old) shortcut (cmd/shiftcmd) action dispatcher
> explicitly allows both. If we want to remove this and use the KMDispatcher framework only, we *need* to define only one mapping, otherwise you won't be able to use dive in/out in spotter.
> (Or you could modify spotter to register(overwrite) the mapping on the textfield instead of the spotter morph).
>
>
> The idea was to offer a uniform support of keybindings in Pharo, in general.
>
> exactly, and using ctrl+left/right uniformly in editor and external tools would be great.
>
> Then Guille etal added #meta to have a predictable mapping.
>
> Yes, and to make this work, we have to remove the old keymapping implementation (cmd/shiftcmd action map) and use the KMDispatcher registration. But I can only continue with this
> if we have a decision what to use, (windows/linux: either ctrl+arrow or alt+arrow, mac: whatever is used on a mac for text navigation)
>
> All #cmd places were changed to #meta, and since then we should not use explicitly #cmd anymore, except when we know we are on Mac. For a portable modifier, we should only use #meta.
>
> At this point, both Rubric and Spotter use #meta. #meta maps on:
> - Mac: Command
> - Win: Control
> - Linus: Control
>
> This means that #alt is now a portable modifier that will not conflict with #meta, so we can now think of using that one in combination with #meta.
>
> You can not use #alt modifier on windows. A shortcut definition like
> $g alt
> is never recognized. You have to define it
> $g command
> to make it work with as "alt+g"-keycombination (on windows).
>
>
>
> For text navigation, the situation is a bit complicated. On Win/Linux, Ctrl+Right/Left moves the cursor between words. On Mac, Cmd+Right/Left moves the cursor at the end/beginning of line. So, using #meta for text navigation between words is not entirely accurate. We should use #ctrl instead.
>
> This would anyway mean that it would be an option to use #alt for Spotter now. But, if we are at it, would anyone be interested in working on revisiting the overall keybindings in Pharo?
>
> Cheers,
> Doru
>
>
>
> > On Jun 16, 2016, at 10:22 AM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > 2016-06-07 16:12 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <[hidden email]>:
> > We can, but I remember there were some discussions and it was decided to use meta everywhere.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Andrei
> >
> >
> > If we don't change this, I'll use cmd+left cmd+right in rubric, but this is bad, because all other navigate/select+navigate shortcuts would use meta as shortcut modifier.
> >
> > What are the arguments for using meta for dive-in/out shortcuts ?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > 2016-06-07 15:08 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <[hidden email]>:
> > During Pharo 5 most shortcuts from tools were changed to use "meta" instead of cmd.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Andrei
> >
> > Can we change this for spotter ? cmd instead of meta
> >
> > ctrl left/right is often used for text components to move to next/previous word.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > 2016-06-07 13:57 GMT+02:00 Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > Am 07.06.2016 1:56 nachm. schrieb "Henrik Nergaard" <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > IIRC the shortcut is not changed, it still is meta+right(+shift). Only the tooltip was changed to display the system specific key instead of “cmd” so for Windows/Linux this would be “ctrl”.
> >
> >
> > No, it changed
> >
> > In #40624, for example, it was cmd (alt-key on windows ) right/shift right
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Henrik
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Pharo-dev [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nicolai Hess
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 12:56 PM
> > > To: Pharo Development List <[hidden email]>
> > > Subject: [Pharo-dev] GT-Spotter dive in shortcut
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Why did the shortcut for dive-in element/category changed from
> > >
> > > cmd+right
> > >
> > > cmd+shift+right
> > >
> > > to
> > >
> > > ctrl+right
> > > ctrl+shift+right
> > >
> > > I know there were some discussions about this and that the behavior changed some
> > >
> > > time ago, but I don't know the rational behind this.
> > >
> > > thanks
> > >
> > > nicolai
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> www.tudorgirba.com
> www.feenk.com
>
> "If you interrupt the barber while he is cutting your hair,
> you will end up with a messy haircut."
>
>
>

--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com

"Quality cannot be an afterthought."

Henrik Sperre Johansen

Re: GT-Spotter dive in shortcut

In reply to this post by Tudor Girba-2

#alt_meta ?
- Maps to alt on OSX, ctrl on Win/Linux.
- Can only bind either #meta or #alt_meta + key, or both must bind to same action.
- Can only be applied to a very limited set of keys, (usually those employed in navigation).
(here are *alot* of different keyboard layouts on Mac using alt + key to generate crucial characters, allowing alt + key as shortcut in general is bound to end in disaster sooner or later)

Cheers,
Henry

> On 17 Jun 2016, at 2:35 , Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Nicolai,
>
> I am a bit removed from the code details at the moment, and I think I need to step back a bit :).
>
> If I understand correctly, you are saying that:
> 1. defining bindings with #alt does not work on Windows. This means that we should fix this one. Using Cmd should not be a solution here.
> 2. defining the bindings for Spotter can indeed be made to override the ones in the text editor if needed. But, I think we can start thinking about using #alt.
>
> Does this make sense?
>
> Cheers,
> Doru
>
>
>> On Jun 17, 2016, at 12:12 AM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> 2016-06-16 22:45 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I think we are mixing the topics a bit. The #meta discussion is not specific to Spotter actions.
>>
>> On windows, it is. Because on windows #meta is mapped to #ctrl, and you can use ctrl+left/right for moving by "words". This works in a browser, an editor, pharos text components but *not* in spotter
>> because spotter redefines this keystrokes for dive in /out.
>> Currently, both ctrl+left/right and alt+left/right (and shift for selection) are working in rubric for moving by "word". But only because the (old) shortcut (cmd/shiftcmd) action dispatcher
>> explicitly allows both. If we want to remove this and use the KMDispatcher framework only, we *need* to define only one mapping, otherwise you won't be able to use dive in/out in spotter.
>> (Or you could modify spotter to register(overwrite) the mapping on the textfield instead of the spotter morph).
>>
>>
>> The idea was to offer a uniform support of keybindings in Pharo, in general.
>>
>> exactly, and using ctrl+left/right uniformly in editor and external tools would be great.
>>
>> Then Guille etal added #meta to have a predictable mapping.
>>
>> Yes, and to make this work, we have to remove the old keymapping implementation (cmd/shiftcmd action map) and use the KMDispatcher registration. But I can only continue with this
>> if we have a decision what to use, (windows/linux: either ctrl+arrow or alt+arrow, mac: whatever is used on a mac for text navigation)
>>
>> All #cmd places were changed to #meta, and since then we should not use explicitly #cmd anymore, except when we know we are on Mac. For a portable modifier, we should only use #meta.
>>
>> At this point, both Rubric and Spotter use #meta. #meta maps on:
>> - Mac: Command
>> - Win: Control
>> - Linus: Control
>>
>> This means that #alt is now a portable modifier that will not conflict with #meta, so we can now think of using that one in combination with #meta.
>>
>> You can not use #alt modifier on windows. A shortcut definition like
>> $g alt
>> is never recognized. You have to define it
>> $g command
>> to make it work with as "alt+g"-keycombination (on windows).
>>
>>
>>
>> For text navigation, the situation is a bit complicated. On Win/Linux, Ctrl+Right/Left moves the cursor between words. On Mac, Cmd+Right/Left moves the cursor at the end/beginning of line. So, using #meta for text navigation between words is not entirely accurate. We should use #ctrl instead.
>>
>> This would anyway mean that it would be an option to use #alt for Spotter now. But, if we are at it, would anyone be interested in working on revisiting the overall keybindings in Pharo?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Doru
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jun 16, 2016, at 10:22 AM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2016-06-07 16:12 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <[hidden email]>:
>>> We can, but I remember there were some discussions and it was decided to use meta everywhere.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Andrei
>>>
>>>
>>> If we don't change this, I'll use cmd+left cmd+right in rubric, but this is bad, because all other navigate/select+navigate shortcuts would use meta as shortcut modifier.
>>>
>>> What are the arguments for using meta for dive-in/out shortcuts ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> 2016-06-07 15:08 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <[hidden email]>:
>>> During Pharo 5 most shortcuts from tools were changed to use "meta" instead of cmd.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Andrei
>>>
>>> Can we change this for spotter ? cmd instead of meta
>>>
>>> ctrl left/right is often used for text components to move to next/previous word.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> 2016-06-07 13:57 GMT+02:00 Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>> Am 07.06.2016 1:56 nachm. schrieb "Henrik Nergaard" <[hidden email]>:
>>>>
>>>> IIRC the shortcut is not changed, it still is meta+right(+shift). Only the tooltip was changed to display the system specific key instead of “cmd” so for Windows/Linux this would be “ctrl”.
>>>
>>>
>>> No, it changed
>>>
>>> In #40624, for example, it was cmd (alt-key on windows ) right/shift right
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Henrik
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Pharo-dev [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nicolai Hess
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 12:56 PM
>>>> To: Pharo Development List <[hidden email]>
>>>> Subject: [Pharo-dev] GT-Spotter dive in shortcut
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why did the shortcut for dive-in element/category changed from
>>>>
>>>> cmd+right
>>>>
>>>> cmd+shift+right
>>>>
>>>> to
>>>>
>>>> ctrl+right
>>>> ctrl+shift+right
>>>>
>>>> I know there were some discussions about this and that the behavior changed some
>>>>
>>>> time ago, but I don't know the rational behind this.
>>>>
>>>> thanks
>>>>
>>>> nicolai
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> www.tudorgirba.com
>> www.feenk.com
>>
>> "If you interrupt the barber while he is cutting your hair,
>> you will end up with a messy haircut."
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> www.tudorgirba.com
> www.feenk.com
>
> "Quality cannot be an afterthought."
>
>

signature.asc (859 bytes) Download Attachment

Tudor Girba-2

Re: GT-Spotter dive in shortcut

Hi,

> On Jun 17, 2016, at 6:04 PM, Henrik Johansen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> #alt_meta ?
> - Maps to alt on OSX, ctrl on Win/Linux.
> - Can only bind either #meta or #alt_meta + key, or both must bind to same action.
> - Can only be applied to a very limited set of keys, (usually those employed in navigation).
> (here are *alot* of different keyboard layouts on Mac using alt + key to generate crucial characters, allowing alt + key as shortcut in general is bound to end in disaster sooner or later)

Thanks for the input!

Indeed, using Alt for Mac for anything else than text is not so nice. However, on Mac we could use Ctrl. To this end, we could introduce a secondaryMeta that maps like this:
- Mac: Ctrl
- Win: Alt
- Linux: Alt

What do you think?

Doru

> Cheers,
> Henry
>
>> On 17 Jun 2016, at 2:35 , Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Nicolai,
>>
>> I am a bit removed from the code details at the moment, and I think I need to step back a bit :).
>>
>> If I understand correctly, you are saying that:
>> 1. defining bindings with #alt does not work on Windows. This means that we should fix this one. Using Cmd should not be a solution here.
>> 2. defining the bindings for Spotter can indeed be made to override the ones in the text editor if needed. But, I think we can start thinking about using #alt.
>>
>> Does this make sense?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Doru
>>
>>
>>> On Jun 17, 2016, at 12:12 AM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2016-06-16 22:45 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I think we are mixing the topics a bit. The #meta discussion is not specific to Spotter actions.
>>>
>>> On windows, it is. Because on windows #meta is mapped to #ctrl, and you can use ctrl+left/right for moving by "words". This works in a browser, an editor, pharos text components but *not* in spotter
>>> because spotter redefines this keystrokes for dive in /out.
>>> Currently, both ctrl+left/right and alt+left/right (and shift for selection) are working in rubric for moving by "word". But only because the (old) shortcut (cmd/shiftcmd) action dispatcher
>>> explicitly allows both. If we want to remove this and use the KMDispatcher framework only, we *need* to define only one mapping, otherwise you won't be able to use dive in/out in spotter.
>>> (Or you could modify spotter to register(overwrite) the mapping on the textfield instead of the spotter morph).
>>>
>>>
>>> The idea was to offer a uniform support of keybindings in Pharo, in general.
>>>
>>> exactly, and using ctrl+left/right uniformly in editor and external tools would be great.
>>>
>>> Then Guille etal added #meta to have a predictable mapping.
>>>
>>> Yes, and to make this work, we have to remove the old keymapping implementation (cmd/shiftcmd action map) and use the KMDispatcher registration. But I can only continue with this
>>> if we have a decision what to use, (windows/linux: either ctrl+arrow or alt+arrow, mac: whatever is used on a mac for text navigation)
>>>
>>> All #cmd places were changed to #meta, and since then we should not use explicitly #cmd anymore, except when we know we are on Mac. For a portable modifier, we should only use #meta.
>>>
>>> At this point, both Rubric and Spotter use #meta. #meta maps on:
>>> - Mac: Command
>>> - Win: Control
>>> - Linus: Control
>>>
>>> This means that #alt is now a portable modifier that will not conflict with #meta, so we can now think of using that one in combination with #meta.
>>>
>>> You can not use #alt modifier on windows. A shortcut definition like
>>> $g alt
>>> is never recognized. You have to define it
>>> $g command
>>> to make it work with as "alt+g"-keycombination (on windows).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For text navigation, the situation is a bit complicated. On Win/Linux, Ctrl+Right/Left moves the cursor between words. On Mac, Cmd+Right/Left moves the cursor at the end/beginning of line. So, using #meta for text navigation between words is not entirely accurate. We should use #ctrl instead.
>>>
>>> This would anyway mean that it would be an option to use #alt for Spotter now. But, if we are at it, would anyone be interested in working on revisiting the overall keybindings in Pharo?
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Doru
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Jun 16, 2016, at 10:22 AM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2016-06-07 16:12 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <[hidden email]>:
>>>> We can, but I remember there were some discussions and it was decided to use meta everywhere.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Andrei
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If we don't change this, I'll use cmd+left cmd+right in rubric, but this is bad, because all other navigate/select+navigate shortcuts would use meta as shortcut modifier.
>>>>
>>>> What are the arguments for using meta for dive-in/out shortcuts ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2016-06-07 15:08 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <[hidden email]>:
>>>> During Pharo 5 most shortcuts from tools were changed to use "meta" instead of cmd.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Andrei
>>>>
>>>> Can we change this for spotter ? cmd instead of meta
>>>>
>>>> ctrl left/right is often used for text components to move to next/previous word.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2016-06-07 13:57 GMT+02:00 Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]>:
>>>>
>>>> Am 07.06.2016 1:56 nachm. schrieb "Henrik Nergaard" <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>
>>>>> IIRC the shortcut is not changed, it still is meta+right(+shift). Only the tooltip was changed to display the system specific key instead of “cmd” so for Windows/Linux this would be “ctrl”.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, it changed
>>>>
>>>> In #40624, for example, it was cmd (alt-key on windows ) right/shift right
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Henrik
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Pharo-dev [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nicolai Hess
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 12:56 PM
>>>>> To: Pharo Development List <[hidden email]>
>>>>> Subject: [Pharo-dev] GT-Spotter dive in shortcut
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Why did the shortcut for dive-in element/category changed from
>>>>>
>>>>> cmd+right
>>>>>
>>>>> cmd+shift+right
>>>>>
>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>> ctrl+right
>>>>> ctrl+shift+right
>>>>>
>>>>> I know there were some discussions about this and that the behavior changed some
>>>>>
>>>>> time ago, but I don't know the rational behind this.
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> nicolai
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> www.tudorgirba.com
>>> www.feenk.com
>>>
>>> "If you interrupt the barber while he is cutting your hair,
>>> you will end up with a messy haircut."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> www.tudorgirba.com
>> www.feenk.com
>>
>> "Quality cannot be an afterthought."
>>
>>
>

--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com

“Live like you mean it."

Tudor Girba-2

Re: GT-Spotter dive in shortcut

In reply to this post by Nicolai Hess-3-2

Hi Nicolai,

> On Jun 17, 2016, at 2:59 PM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> 2016-06-17 14:35 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:
> Hi Nicolai,
>
> I am a bit removed from the code details at the moment, and I think I need to step back a bit :).
>
> If I understand correctly, you are saying that:
> 1. defining bindings with #alt does not work on Windows. This means that we should fix this one. Using Cmd should not be a solution here.
>
> As far as I know, this is on purpose. A key pressed with windows (left) alt modified is mapped to "command"
>
> from vm source:
>
> * 3) The modifier keys are mapped as follows:
> *
> * Mac | Win32
> * --------------------
> * Shift -> Shift
> * Ctrl -> Ctrl
> * Command -> Left ALT
> * Option -> Right ALT
>
> (but actually, the right ALT key does not generate any keystrokes (only key down/up) and it is treated as ctrl+alt (windows right Alt key is "Alt Gr”)

Hmm. I think we have to rethink this one because we need two layers of keys:
1. first we should have the raw ones, and
2. another layer that offers a more logical keys (like meta).

What do you think?

> 2. defining the
> bindings for Spotter can indeed be made to override the ones in the text editor if needed. But, I think we can start thinking about using #alt.
>
> using alt+right on windows/linux and
> command + right on mac
> for dive-in or for text navigation?
>
> Is there a default keycombination for word-moving in text components for mac ?

On Mac, typically Alt+Right/Left moves between words.

So, we would need a logical modifier that would mean:
- Mac: Alt
- Win: Ctrl
- Linux: Ctrl

What do you think?

Cheers,
Doru

>
> Does this make sense?
>
> Cheers,
> Doru
>
>
> > On Jun 17, 2016, at 12:12 AM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > 2016-06-16 22:45 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I think we are mixing the topics a bit. The #meta discussion is not specific to Spotter actions.
> >
> > On windows, it is. Because on windows #meta is mapped to #ctrl, and you can use ctrl+left/right for moving by "words". This works in a browser, an editor, pharos text components but *not* in spotter
> > because spotter redefines this keystrokes for dive in /out.
> > Currently, both ctrl+left/right and alt+left/right (and shift for selection) are working in rubric for moving by "word". But only because the (old) shortcut (cmd/shiftcmd) action dispatcher
> > explicitly allows both. If we want to remove this and use the KMDispatcher framework only, we *need* to define only one mapping, otherwise you won't be able to use dive in/out in spotter.
> > (Or you could modify spotter to register(overwrite) the mapping on the textfield instead of the spotter morph).
> >
> >
> > The idea was to offer a uniform support of keybindings in Pharo, in general.
> >
> > exactly, and using ctrl+left/right uniformly in editor and external tools would be great.
> >
> > Then Guille etal added #meta to have a predictable mapping.
> >
> > Yes, and to make this work, we have to remove the old keymapping implementation (cmd/shiftcmd action map) and use the KMDispatcher registration. But I can only continue with this
> > if we have a decision what to use, (windows/linux: either ctrl+arrow or alt+arrow, mac: whatever is used on a mac for text navigation)
> >
> > All #cmd places were changed to #meta, and since then we should not use explicitly #cmd anymore, except when we know we are on Mac. For a portable modifier, we should only use #meta.
> >
> > At this point, both Rubric and Spotter use #meta. #meta maps on:
> > - Mac: Command
> > - Win: Control
> > - Linus: Control
> >
> > This means that #alt is now a portable modifier that will not conflict with #meta, so we can now think of using that one in combination with #meta.
> >
> > You can not use #alt modifier on windows. A shortcut definition like
> > $g alt
> > is never recognized. You have to define it
> > $g command
> > to make it work with as "alt+g"-keycombination (on windows).
> >
> >
> >
> > For text navigation, the situation is a bit complicated. On Win/Linux, Ctrl+Right/Left moves the cursor between words. On Mac, Cmd+Right/Left moves the cursor at the end/beginning of line. So, using #meta for text navigation between words is not entirely accurate. We should use #ctrl instead.
> >
> > This would anyway mean that it would be an option to use #alt for Spotter now. But, if we are at it, would anyone be interested in working on revisiting the overall keybindings in Pharo?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Doru
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Jun 16, 2016, at 10:22 AM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2016-06-07 16:12 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <[hidden email]>:
> > > We can, but I remember there were some discussions and it was decided to use meta everywhere.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Andrei
> > >
> > >
> > > If we don't change this, I'll use cmd+left cmd+right in rubric, but this is bad, because all other navigate/select+navigate shortcuts would use meta as shortcut modifier.
> > >
> > > What are the arguments for using meta for dive-in/out shortcuts ?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > 2016-06-07 15:08 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <[hidden email]>:
> > > During Pharo 5 most shortcuts from tools were changed to use "meta" instead of cmd.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Andrei
> > >
> > > Can we change this for spotter ? cmd instead of meta
> > >
> > > ctrl left/right is often used for text components to move to next/previous word.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > 2016-06-07 13:57 GMT+02:00 Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > Am 07.06.2016 1:56 nachm. schrieb "Henrik Nergaard" <[hidden email]>:
> > > >
> > > > IIRC the shortcut is not changed, it still is meta+right(+shift). Only the tooltip was changed to display the system specific key instead of “cmd” so for Windows/Linux this would be “ctrl”.
> > >
> > >
> > > No, it changed
> > >
> > > In #40624, for example, it was cmd (alt-key on windows ) right/shift right
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > >
> > > > Henrik
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Pharo-dev [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nicolai Hess
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 12:56 PM
> > > > To: Pharo Development List <[hidden email]>
> > > > Subject: [Pharo-dev] GT-Spotter dive in shortcut
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Why did the shortcut for dive-in element/category changed from
> > > >
> > > > cmd+right
> > > >
> > > > cmd+shift+right
> > > >
> > > > to
> > > >
> > > > ctrl+right
> > > > ctrl+shift+right
> > > >
> > > > I know there were some discussions about this and that the behavior changed some
> > > >
> > > > time ago, but I don't know the rational behind this.
> > > >
> > > > thanks
> > > >
> > > > nicolai
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > www.tudorgirba.com
> > www.feenk.com
> >
> > "If you interrupt the barber while he is cutting your hair,
> > you will end up with a messy haircut."
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> www.tudorgirba.com
> www.feenk.com
>
> "Quality cannot be an afterthought."
>
>
>

--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com

"Being happy is a matter of choice."

Ben Coman

Re: GT-Spotter dive in shortcut

In reply to this post by Tudor Girba-2

On Sat, Jun 18, 2016 at 12:20 AM, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
>> On Jun 17, 2016, at 6:04 PM, Henrik Johansen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> #alt_meta ?
>> - Maps to alt on OSX, ctrl on Win/Linux.
>> - Can only bind either #meta or #alt_meta + key, or both must bind to same action.
>> - Can only be applied to a very limited set of keys, (usually those employed in navigation).
>> (here are *alot* of different keyboard layouts on Mac using alt + key to generate crucial characters, allowing alt + key as shortcut in general is bound to end in disaster sooner or later)
>
> Thanks for the input!
>
> Indeed, using Alt for Mac for anything else than text is not so nice. However, on Mac we could use Ctrl. To this end, we could introduce a secondaryMeta that maps like this:
> - Mac: Ctrl
> - Win: Alt
> - Linux: Alt
>
> What do you think?

I like this, to further minimise hard coding of alt, & ctrl. Yet
there are probably a small number of shortcuts with cross platform
conflicts where hardcoded values are still required, and for those it
even be useful to hardcode AltException & CtrlException rather than
Alt & Ctrl - to make this clear to anyone using the system code as an
example - but maybe that would be taking it too far.

cheers -

>
> Doru
>
>
>> Cheers,
>> Henry
>>
>>> On 17 Jun 2016, at 2:35 , Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Nicolai,
>>>
>>> I am a bit removed from the code details at the moment, and I think I need to step back a bit :).
>>>
>>> If I understand correctly, you are saying that:
>>> 1. defining bindings with #alt does not work on Windows. This means that we should fix this one. Using Cmd should not be a solution here.
>>> 2. defining the bindings for Spotter can indeed be made to override the ones in the text editor if needed. But, I think we can start thinking about using #alt.
>>>
>>> Does this make sense?
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Doru
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Jun 17, 2016, at 12:12 AM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2016-06-16 22:45 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <[hidden email]>:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I think we are mixing the topics a bit. The #meta discussion is not specific to Spotter actions.
>>>>
>>>> On windows, it is. Because on windows #meta is mapped to #ctrl, and you can use ctrl+left/right for moving by "words". This works in a browser, an editor, pharos text components but *not* in spotter
>>>> because spotter redefines this keystrokes for dive in /out.
>>>> Currently, both ctrl+left/right and alt+left/right (and shift for selection) are working in rubric for moving by "word". But only because the (old) shortcut (cmd/shiftcmd) action dispatcher
>>>> explicitly allows both. If we want to remove this and use the KMDispatcher framework only, we *need* to define only one mapping, otherwise you won't be able to use dive in/out in spotter.
>>>> (Or you could modify spotter to register(overwrite) the mapping on the textfield instead of the spotter morph).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The idea was to offer a uniform support of keybindings in Pharo, in general.
>>>>
>>>> exactly, and using ctrl+left/right uniformly in editor and external tools would be great.
>>>>
>>>> Then Guille etal added #meta to have a predictable mapping.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, and to make this work, we have to remove the old keymapping implementation (cmd/shiftcmd action map) and use the KMDispatcher registration. But I can only continue with this
>>>> if we have a decision what to use, (windows/linux: either ctrl+arrow or alt+arrow, mac: whatever is used on a mac for text navigation)
>>>>
>>>> All #cmd places were changed to #meta, and since then we should not use explicitly #cmd anymore, except when we know we are on Mac. For a portable modifier, we should only use #meta.
>>>>
>>>> At this point, both Rubric and Spotter use #meta. #meta maps on:
>>>> - Mac: Command
>>>> - Win: Control
>>>> - Linus: Control
>>>>
>>>> This means that #alt is now a portable modifier that will not conflict with #meta, so we can now think of using that one in combination with #meta.
>>>>
>>>> You can not use #alt modifier on windows. A shortcut definition like
>>>> $g alt
>>>> is never recognized. You have to define it
>>>> $g command
>>>> to make it work with as "alt+g"-keycombination (on windows).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> For text navigation, the situation is a bit complicated. On Win/Linux, Ctrl+Right/Left moves the cursor between words. On Mac, Cmd+Right/Left moves the cursor at the end/beginning of line. So, using #meta for text navigation between words is not entirely accurate. We should use #ctrl instead.
>>>>
>>>> This would anyway mean that it would be an option to use #alt for Spotter now. But, if we are at it, would anyone be interested in working on revisiting the overall keybindings in Pharo?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Doru
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 16, 2016, at 10:22 AM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2016-06-07 16:12 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <[hidden email]>:
>>>>> We can, but I remember there were some discussions and it was decided to use meta everywhere.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Andrei
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If we don't change this, I'll use cmd+left cmd+right in rubric, but this is bad, because all other navigate/select+navigate shortcuts would use meta as shortcut modifier.
>>>>>
>>>>> What are the arguments for using meta for dive-in/out shortcuts ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2016-06-07 15:08 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <[hidden email]>:
>>>>> During Pharo 5 most shortcuts from tools were changed to use "meta" instead of cmd.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Andrei
>>>>>
>>>>> Can we change this for spotter ? cmd instead of meta
>>>>>
>>>>> ctrl left/right is often used for text components to move to next/previous word.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2016-06-07 13:57 GMT+02:00 Nicolai Hess <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>
>>>>> Am 07.06.2016 1:56 nachm. schrieb "Henrik Nergaard" <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IIRC the shortcut is not changed, it still is meta+right(+shift). Only the tooltip was changed to display the system specific key instead of “cmd” so for Windows/Linux this would be “ctrl”.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, it changed
>>>>>
>>>>> In #40624, for example, it was cmd (alt-key on windows ) right/shift right
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Henrik
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Pharo-dev [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nicolai Hess
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 12:56 PM
>>>>>> To: Pharo Development List <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> Subject: [Pharo-dev] GT-Spotter dive in shortcut
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why did the shortcut for dive-in element/category changed from
>>>>>>
>>>>>> cmd+right
>>>>>>
>>>>>> cmd+shift+right
>>>>>>
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ctrl+right
>>>>>> ctrl+shift+right
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know there were some discussions about this and that the behavior changed some
>>>>>>
>>>>>> time ago, but I don't know the rational behind this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> nicolai
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> www.tudorgirba.com
>>>> www.feenk.com
>>>>
>>>> "If you interrupt the barber while he is cutting your hair,
>>>> you will end up with a messy haircut."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> www.tudorgirba.com
>>> www.feenk.com
>>>
>>> "Quality cannot be an afterthought."
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> --
> www.tudorgirba.com
> www.feenk.com
>
> “Live like you mean it."
>
>

Nicolas Passerini

Re: GT-Spotter dive in shortcut

On Sat, Jun 18, 2016 at 4:39 PM, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yet
there are probably a small number of shortcuts with cross platform
conflicts where hardcoded values are still required, and for those it
even be useful to hardcode

I agree to that. For example I miss that normally in my computer (with Linux) I every program I can do Ctrl+Backspace to delete the word before the cursor, which in Pharo does not work, and I think it is related to mac keyboards not having two different keys for backspace/delete as it is common in other keyboards.

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