I Want Keith Hodges Banned

On 18.02.2010, at 06:26, Andreas Raab wrote:
>
>
> The board itself is truly a board of equals, great and wonderful personalities who I am proud to associate with. There is only one person who I'd say does significantly more than anyone else, and that's Ken. Ken has been by far the biggest surprise to me - he is truly the secretary, keeping everything together, making sure we have an agenda, making sure we post the summary, nagging people where necessary, keeping the communications going, etc.
>
> That Ken isn't running again is a *huge* loss for the next board, much larger than my absence could ever be. If you have any influence on his decisions (heck even if not!) send him a note to reconsider, *beg* him if you must. And I apologize to Ken for putting you on the stand here but I really, really, really like you to reconsider :-)
>
> Cheers,
>  - Andreas

Seconded. And besides the work on the Board, Ken kept our servers running almost all by himself in the past years, without making any fuzz about it. Bet many people don't even know.

Ken, if you would not have to do any more box admin work, would you consider running again? Please?

All: who would volunteer to take over some of the admin tasks? I promise to put in some of my own time into this, too.

- Bert -

On 2/18/10 5:38 AM, "Andreas Raab" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> How about just Joe Average Board Member? ;-)

Ji ji ji, I like it :=)

On 18 February 2010 07:26, Andreas Raab <[hidden email]> wrote:
+100. Ken is truly the heart of current board. His conrtibution is
hard to underestimate.


> Cheers,
>  - Andreas


--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

On 18 February 2010 08:37, Edgar J. De Cleene <[hidden email]> wrote:
Edgar, what makes you think that Andreas is some kind of Deity (or should be)
to stand and rule on top of everyone?
During the past year, attending the board's meeting i never felt that
Andreas using a brute force to rule the board.
He's got many initiatives, but all of them were backed by a strong
reasoning, not by blatant words 'lets do it my way, because i want
that'. His offers is always a well-considered, weightened and
reasonable.
Not a surprise, there was a little disagreement from most of us (if
ever) about things he proposed.

That's why i think that community will win, if he will be allowed to
run for a next year.

>> I've done the job
>
> And only one Birmingham citizen don't agree
>
> Cheers
>
> Edgar
>


--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

On 2/18/10 7:41 AM, "Igor Stasenko" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Edgar, what makes you think that Andreas is some kind of Deity (or should be)
> to stand and rule on top of everyone?
> During the past year, attending the board's meeting i never felt that
> Andreas using a brute force to rule the board.


Read my post.
I never think such thing or he do not have my vote or I wish be in Board
with he

Hi guys!

Bert Freudenberg wrote:
> Seconded. And besides the work on the Board, Ken kept our servers running almost all by himself in the past years, without making any fuzz about it. Bet many people don't even know.
>
> Ken, if you would not have to do any more box admin work, would you consider running again? Please?
>
> All: who would volunteer to take over some of the admin tasks? I promise to put in some of my own time into this, too.

I can probably do more than I have done during the last year, and if it
can make Ken rerun I am happy to do it!

As always it is interesting to look back on history. Some of you
remember that the first real Election held was in 2006. Here is a post
from me discussing the result of that first real Election:

http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2006-February/101025.html

I am very, very pleased to hear that Ken has proved me right in the
board of 2009, three years later. :)

regards, Göran

PS. Note that Bert and Craig are the only names from that first
legitimate elected board that are on the current.

>>>>> "Igor" == Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> writes:


Igor> +100. Ken is truly the heart of current board. His conrtibution is
Igor> hard to underestimate.

Indeed.  Ken has been the heart and *mind* of the current board.  Although I
don't recall electing a formal structure, Ken has been acting as President
*and* Secretary for all of the meetings, and was instrumental in getting the
SOB blog running to help enhance communication with the community.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion

keith skrev 2010-02-18 13:38:

I think that main issue why Chris wants Keith banned is not his
position and opinion,
but his continuous and repetituous attacks on a single subject.

With all respect to Keith, and his position, i don't understand why i
need to read the same things over and over again,
why i need to waste time explaining my own position over and over again.
For intelligent/wise people its usually takes 1 or 2 attempts to
understand something. You either understand it, or not and then based
on outcome you either sharing the same thoughts with others or just
leave things as it, because you can't understand or disagree.


--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

And the continuation of this discussion is needed and will go on forever until the board gets "terms of reference" and goes back to being an "oversight" committee rather than acting like and believing they are dictators.

See I said it again... I did not mention Germans... I mentioned dictators, and I quoted Satre, go and look the word up in the dictionary.

I will not be making any further contribution until the board has terms of reference.

I have left this community.

I will not be running for the board or voting for the board.

All my projects published on squeaksource are no longer maintained unless I need to fix them for commercial reasons. The reason for this is that it is impossible to maintain and test packages for all forks, if it works it works, if it doesn't work for your context then you have to fix it for your context. The context (image) I am using to develop things is not the same image you are using, so because there is no universally useful testing framework for making sure everything is ok in all forks. We had that vision, we don't any more. The process of actually maintaining a cross-fork package is not supported by any tools or political will to make tools, so it is only fair to say that nothing is supported, because I don't have time, and no-one is paying me to support your fork, (which includes trunk)

Incidentally I am also moving away from dependence on squeaksource and monticello so you probably will not even find my future code, because there is no framework for publishing what is available in my context, so that you can see it might be useful in your context. So it would be unfair of me to tell you that my projects are supported, if they are only supported in an image I have control over, which is the truth.

I am ONLY here because Cuis is here, I am not in #squeak irc any more, because I wont be treated like that again. There is now a #cuis room too.

If cuis gets its own mailing list I will go there. 

Squeak is not a viable basis for comerical work since the "community" is too unstable, and the code base is out of your control. If you bet the house on it, someone will knock your house down (you have been warned)

This sentiment must be taken with a grain of salt.
Scratch is probaly the most widely used Squeak application and I have not heard any complaints from them on this matter.
I gave you a warning quite early about the huge burnout rate of Squeak realease team members. It's not clear to me that even if you completed your job with thew 3.11 release, that anybody would use it. Just like the Modules image it could be abandoned because of issues with tools and integration. I never looked at your stuff , but I've used Mantis and I do not like it. It seems futile to base future development on tools that people find obscure and hard to use.

Karl

I take from this that we need to *not* have terms of reference for the board.  Keith has, I hope (why do I doubt it?), offered to exclude himself form this community and that is something I will very much appreciate.  The recent IRC log displays a degree of emotional and intellectual immaturity I found quite shocking.  It also included some pathetic arse licking and gang behaviour from others and reminded me of nothing as much as my 9 year old son's own battles at school.  I think that Keith is essentially a mediocre talent who has some good ideas but who doesn't execute very well. Keith himself said in the IRC log three years of work on continuous integration was wasted by the new trunk.  Three years is simply too long in this space.  Others have got bored waiting and have started playing a different game, but Keith's reaction is to have a sustained hissy fit.  Rather than do all the hard work necessary to make his work accessible to others he has emoted repetitiously to an extent that has exhausted the patience of many in the community.  I am relieved to hear keith has decided to stomp off to the other side of the playground.  The IRC log shows how much energy is wasted on emoting instead of working.

>   Three years is simply too long in this space.

I think you mis-understand, this is three years of work overlapping  
with the start of 3.10

Keith

- a whole bunch
It's attitudes like yours that make this open source community struggle.

Yes, you can quit bleating please.

Ken G. Brown

At 10:06 AM -0800 2/18/10, Eliot Miranda apparently wrote:
>I take from this that we need to *not* have terms of reference for the board.  Keith has, I hope (why do I doubt it?), offered to exclude himself form this community and that is something I will very much appreciate.  The recent IRC log displays a degree of emotional and intellectual immaturity I found quite shocking.  It also included some pathetic arse licking and gang behaviour from others and reminded me of nothing as much as my 9 year old son's own battles at school.  I think that Keith is essentially a mediocre talent who has some good ideas but who doesn't execute very well. Keith himself said in the IRC log three years of work on continuous integration was wasted by the new trunk.  Three years is simply too long in this space.  Others have got bored waiting and have started playing a different game, but Keith's reaction is to have a sustained hissy fit.  Rather than do all the hard work necessary to make his work accessible to others he has emoted repetitiously to an extent that has exhausted the patience of many in the community.  I am relieved to hear keith has decided to stomp off to the other side of the playground.  The IRC log shows how much energy is wasted on emoting instead of working.
>
>So can we please /not/ have a terms of reference and /not/ welcome Keith back into the fold?  If he produces good work in Cuis we can put in the effort to harvest it, and in the mean time concentrate our energies on Squeaking rather than bleating.
>
>best
>Eliot
<.

On 18 February 2010 20:06, Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]> wrote:
[snip]
> The
> recent IRC log displays a degree of emotional and intellectual immaturity I
> found quite shocking.  It also included some pathetic arse licking and gang
> behaviour from others and reminded me of nothing as much as my 9 year old
> son's own battles at school.

That's why referring to IRC logs as an 'official' source of
information and accusing Randal in intolerance, dictature and many
other death sins is quite stupid. Because other side behaves not a bit
better.


> best
> Eliot


--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Hi,

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 10:17 PM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
> That's why referring to IRC logs as an 'official' source of
> information and accusing Randal in intolerance, dictature and many
> other death sins is quite stupid. Because other side behaves not a bit
> better.

man, I'm so glad I don't ever use IRC. :-P

Best,

Michael

On 18 February 2010 23:19, Michael Haupt <[hidden email]> wrote:
Well, as any instant messaging facility it is quite useful sometimes.
Don't blame weapon in human's deaths, blame humans who using it to kill.

> Best,
>
> Michael
>
>



--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

>>>>> "Igor" == Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> writes:

Igor> Well, as any instant messaging facility it is quite useful sometimes.
Igor> Don't blame weapon in human's deaths, blame humans who using it to kill.

It does also require some adjustments, just as print is not
the same as face-to-face, and email is not really the same as print,
and twitter isn't the same as email, etc etc.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion

Elliot,

On second thoughts I don't think I should take this sitting down. I  
will reply to you because I think you are at heart a reasonable person.

>   It also included some pathetic arse licking and gang behaviour  
> from others

The others you refer to are ones who actually bothered to look at my  
stuff, and actually contributed their input to it, as opposed to  
Randal who was just talking about something he had never even  
investigated. They were arguing from knowledge not from ignorance.

> and reminded me of nothing as much as my 9 year old son's own  
> battles at school.

I agree entirely with that, I recognise a bully when I see one, and  
there are several around here.

>  I think that Keith is essentially a mediocre talent

I agree with that too. I only have 34 years experience of coding, but  
I never claimed to be as good as anyone else. I only do high level  
coding if I can get away with it, but I have been doing social process  
engineering stuff for 20 years.

My social process analysis of trunk is that it is effectively  
bottlenecked behind one person, and it locks out many contributors  
like myself. the proof is in the number of effective contributors,  
that can refactor anything without breaking the process, and I think  
that value is arguably the same or less than we had. I suspect it is  
actually zero.

It is precisely because us mediocre contributors such as myself want a  
process that we can use without some "guru" type telling us our  
mediocre code is crap, that we wanted a peoples-process in the first  
place. We want an actual process NOT a person.

For example, if I am refactoring the compiler, and I break it, how can  
I publish that to trunk and ask anyone to help me? It will not load in  
their image via trunk will it? You see the amount of actual  
collaborating faciliated by trunk is minimal.

Andreas did not give us a process he gave us a repository manned by a  
person. Opening a shared repository does not a process make. We  
already had one 3 years ago, and you were welcome to contribute there  
and have your contributions added to the auto-build or LPF. It also  
accepted patches and changesets packaged up as mcz files.

We want a process we can use to control the image we want to build,  
hence the goal for a kernel image. Sonce the goal for the community is  
and has been a kernel image for as long as I can remember then a  
process needs to be deigned that is actually capable of producing a  
kernel image. We mediocre types want a process where we can put our  
mediocre ideas, and get help from non-mediocre people like you to make  
them work and shine.

I benefited greatly from contributing fixes and ideas to mantis and  
having excellent feedback there, however we wanted more than that we  
wanted the ability to have multiple unstable and experimental builds.  
The world has moved on from CVS, we are now in the territory of  
multiple branching.

So all power to mediocre coders, that is what smalltalk is all about.  
If we wanted to be coding superstars we would have learned C++ in the  
first place. I did real work in Hypercard and I am proud of it.

> who has some good ideas but who doesn't execute very well.

Where where you when the board cancelled 3.11 altogether? I did not  
see you volunteering. I waited until no one else wanted the job. The  
future we were told was spoon, or squeak 5.0. Which apparently was 1  
month away at the time!!!! I don't see Craig getting the hassle I was  
given for being later on his deadlines than I ever was.

I see it is all right to support and endorse a mediocre, perhaps even  
slightly out of his depth person to do a job you don't want to  
volunteer for, when it suits you. I see it is also alright to drop  
them when it no longer suits you. The mediocre person is fair game to  
be walked over.

I also see that it is alright for anyone to walk all over someone else  
who is not so good as them, just because you think you are gods gift  
to coding, and you know better than everyone else and cant be bothered  
to invest the time and energy to understand what has happened in the  
community in the three years or more that you have been absent from it.

Having been blessed with non-mediocre status is apparently a licence  
to treat everyone else as below being worth talking to. Even people  
that had previously invited you to invest time and money, and other  
peoples money, on a project.

If Andreas had been involved in the release team at all himself, he  
would have known that Metthew as 3.11 team leader had been sequestered  
by the board (aka Randall) (again without discussion) to work on  
Squeak 4.0 the relicencing deal instead, so no only did the board make  
me effectively a man down, they also told me to SLOW down on 3.11  
because it would have to wait for the re-licencing.

> Keith himself said in the IRC log three years of work on continuous  
> integration was wasted by the new trunk.  Three years is simply too  
> long in this space.

Well it was about 1 and a bit years from when we officially took over  
3.11, I was incorporating 3 years of work, in the final project. SUnit  
test runner was written in Sept 2006ish Bob version one was written in  
ruby in January 2007. Bob2 was finished in Feb 2009.

This community and the board needs to watch that video on open source  
projects and poisoned people several times. The FIRST principles in  
that video were

Politeness
Respect
Humility
Trust

When you lack any of those things in your leadership, you will  
inevitably end up poisoning people. Tell me that has not happened here?

In real life, I am a carer for a person with 30 multiple personalities  
who is extremely sensitive, and I ran an open house for 8 years. I  
have spent 15 years helping victims of abuse, incest, rape and  
torture. I am, I am told a fairly nice guy. Seriously the squeak  
community needs to look at what it has become if it can have this  
effect on me.

Trust is an important one. I trusted the board, and my employer  
trusted both the board and me. I simply trust that if I am asked to do  
a job, and I am doing it. That the board will actually talk to me  
about things that effect my work, and they will provide a layer of  
protection from the wider public or anyone else who does not know the  
details of progress.

Humility, is also important, one might ask if you have someone who has  
been thinking about the problem for 3 or 4 years they might be worth  
getting together in a round the table discussion about it. To have the  
arrogance to come up with the solution on the back of an envelope and  
then impose it on the rest of us without discussion is not humility.

Politeness, well I reserve politeness for those who deserve it. I know  
I am wrong on this one, and I am working on it.

regards

Keith

p.s. I might vote after all. Chris Muller is the ONLY person running  
for the board who actually produces anything in the form of loadable  
packages for other Squeakers to use across the board. He knows the  
difficulties of maintaining a package for several forks.