I18n in pharo
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Will Pharo 7 be ready for i18n of applications? I mean some simple and useful way like in Cincom Visual Works, where translation dictionaries are separated from code and could be dinamycally changed without changing my application. It is very important for huge commercial applications, especially with lots of UI forms, dialogs and user-messages. I transfer my code from Cincom VW (VW is not available now for Russia due to politic situation) to Pharo and is very interested in simple internationalization mechanism. I don't want to reinvent the wheel but sometimes it seems to me that pharo developers are forced to do it. By the way, the error i had last week with clean Pharo 6\Pharo 6.1 installation ("UTF8InvalidText: Invalid utf8 input detected" on image load - error caused by cyrillic path to application folder) didn't solved and i had no feedback from community. best regards, Vikenti Potapov. |
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Hi vikenti
I would love. Now if nobody using a different alphabet does not give us feedback and help we will not really make progress. Denis how do you it? Hilaire is using gettext or something like that in DrGeo. Vikenti did you check the Entreprise Pharo book because it contains nice chapters from svn on cahracter encoding. By the way, the error i had last week with clean Pharo 6\Pharo 6.1 installation ("UTF8InvalidText: Invalid utf8 input detected" on image load - error caused by cyrillic path to application folder) didn't solved and i had no feedback from community. Did you report it? We are slowly deprecating the old streams (because they are messy) and replacing then with ZnStreams. Now if you want to help this would be useful to produce a better Pharo. Stef On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 9:29 PM, Викентий Потапов <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Will Pharo 7 be ready for i18n of applications? > I mean some simple and useful way like in Cincom Visual Works, where translation dictionaries are separated from code and could be dinamycally changed without changing my application. > > It is very important for huge commercial applications, especially with lots of UI forms, dialogs and user-messages. > > I transfer my code from Cincom VW (VW is not available now for Russia due to politic situation) to Pharo and is very interested in simple internationalization mechanism. I don't want to reinvent the wheel but sometimes it seems to me that pharo developers are forced to do it. > > By the way, the error i had last week with clean Pharo 6\Pharo 6.1 installation ("UTF8InvalidText: Invalid utf8 input detected" on image load - error caused by cyrillic path to application folder) didn't solved and i had no feedback from community. > > best regards, > Vikenti Potapov. > > |
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Hi
2017-11-09 22:15 GMT+01:00 Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]>: Hi vikenti I got this kind of errors in past with Pharo 1 on Windows XP. Now I was sure that it was fixed. I checked it with Pharo 3 (I guess). Now I have no such environment to test. Hilaire is using gettext or something like that in DrGeo. |
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In reply to this post by vikenti
In my experience I used my own custom implementation to support multiple languages. It was based on super simple dictionary of lang->labelName->text. I loaded it from custom xml file. My problem was that I never understood how gettext is supposed to be used on Windows. 2017-11-09 21:29 GMT+01:00 Викентий Потапов <[hidden email]>:
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In reply to this post by vikenti
The Pharo 7/8 roadmap does not (yet) include I18N: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-workingRoadmaps/blob/master/Pharo7/ROADMAP.md
and the Pharo core image still includes the "NaturalLanguageTranslator" solution still from Squeak. See this class for more details and all senders of #translated message. So far the whole Pharo UI is in English and while books, the mooc or others were translated the Pharo image so far is not. I guess some more work would be needed also on the font frontier to provide an internationalized image and the different languages. But for own applications (like web applications) there are some more (external) solutions: 1. I once wrote and announced an own I18N framwork: http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/2014-September/100247.html which is fully documented on http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~TorstenBergmann/I18N but is a completely proprietary solution. 2. There is also some stuff from Jan van de Sandt: https://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2012-October/070652.html 3. And there is GetText (from Seaside web framework) which I guess is either here http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~PharoExtras/Gettext or now maintained here: https://github.com/SeasideSt/Seaside/wiki/Gettext Unfortunately back at the time this one was not independently loadable and had other trouble which I critisized on http://forum.world.st/ANN-Easy-I18N-for-Pharo-td4778194.html Maybe situation for this project has improved. But so far nobody pushed I18N really into Pharo ... 4. Therefore back in 2014 I started with a consolidation by starting a clean room implementation of Gettext - based on code from 3. but now with tests and Pharo Spec based tools (see screenshot attached). I did it in an own repo to be able to experiment and not break the Seaside solution right in the beginning. My code is on STHub http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~TorstenBergmann/Gettext and it is not yet fully usable and so far still unfinished But one can load the project still in Pharo 7 using Gofer it smalltalkhubUser: 'TorstenBergmann' project: 'Gettext'; configuration; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGettext) project bleedingEdge load All 11 Tests are green so at least what is there should work. Check the world menu and the code. Load the "Foo" package from the same repository to see something in the tools. The idea was to have support for MO and PO files completely written in Smalltalk as well as tools that allow you to find and translate internationalized text. But as always: this would require more work. I would still favour a fully in Pharo written solution (following the gettext formats) but maybe for performance reasons then also bind to libgettext using UFFI. Hope this gives some insights on the current existing solutions/status. Thanks Torsten > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 09. November 2017 um 21:29 Uhr > Von: "Викентий Потапов" <[hidden email]> > An: [hidden email] > Betreff: [Pharo-users] I18n in pharo > > > Will Pharo 7 be ready for i18n of applications? > I mean some simple and useful way like in Cincom Visual Works, where translation dictionaries are separated from code and could be dinamycally changed without changing my application. > > It is very important for huge commercial applications, especially with lots of UI forms, dialogs and user-messages. > > I transfer my code from Cincom VW (VW is not available now for Russia due to politic situation) to Pharo and is very interested in simple internationalization mechanism. I don't want to reinvent the wheel but sometimes it seems to me that pharo developers are forced to do it. > > By the way, the error i had last week with clean Pharo 6\Pharo 6.1 installation ("UTF8InvalidText: Invalid utf8 input detected" on image load - error caused by cyrillic path to application folder) didn't solved and i had no feedback from community. > > best regards, > Vikenti Potapov. > > > |
GetTextNewTools.png (94K) |
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I think this is two different problems:
1. pharo itself supporting different languages/keyboards, etc. 2. pharo allowing the development of i18n applications I think we still need to work on point 1, but for point 2 we already have gettext package, which is a standard we can/should use. Maybe that needs to be better documented (as everything), but well… we have a solution there :) Esteban > On 9 Nov 2017, at 18:58, Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]> wrote: > > The Pharo 7/8 roadmap does not (yet) include I18N: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-workingRoadmaps/blob/master/Pharo7/ROADMAP.md > > and the Pharo core image still includes the "NaturalLanguageTranslator" solution still from Squeak. See this class for more details and > all senders of #translated message. So far the whole Pharo UI is in English and while books, the mooc or others were translated the Pharo > image so far is not. > I guess some more work would be needed also on the font frontier to provide an internationalized image and the different languages. > > > > But for own applications (like web applications) there are some more (external) solutions: > > > 1. I once wrote and announced an own I18N framwork: http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/2014-September/100247.html > which is fully documented on http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~TorstenBergmann/I18N but is a completely proprietary solution. > > 2. There is also some stuff from Jan van de Sandt: > https://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2012-October/070652.html > > 3. And there is GetText (from Seaside web framework) which I guess is either here http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~PharoExtras/Gettext > or now maintained here: https://github.com/SeasideSt/Seaside/wiki/Gettext > > Unfortunately back at the time this one was not independently loadable and had other trouble which I critisized on > http://forum.world.st/ANN-Easy-I18N-for-Pharo-td4778194.html > > Maybe situation for this project has improved. > > > But so far nobody pushed I18N really into Pharo ... > > 4. Therefore back in 2014 I started with a consolidation by starting a clean room implementation of Gettext - based on code from 3. > but now with tests and Pharo Spec based tools (see screenshot attached). I did it in an own repo to be able to experiment and > not break the Seaside solution right in the beginning. > > My code is on STHub http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~TorstenBergmann/Gettext and it is not yet fully usable and so far still > unfinished > > But one can load the project still in Pharo 7 using > > Gofer it > smalltalkhubUser: 'TorstenBergmann' project: 'Gettext'; > configuration; > load. > > (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGettext) project bleedingEdge load > > All 11 Tests are green so at least what is there should work. Check the world menu and the code. Load the "Foo" package from the same repository > to see something in the tools. The idea was to have support for MO and PO files completely written in Smalltalk as well as tools that allow you > to find and translate internationalized text. > > But as always: this would require more work. I would still favour a fully in Pharo written solution (following the gettext formats) but maybe for > performance reasons then also bind to libgettext using UFFI. > > > Hope this gives some insights on the current existing solutions/status. > > Thanks > Torsten > > >> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 09. November 2017 um 21:29 Uhr >> Von: "Викентий Потапов" <[hidden email]> >> An: [hidden email] >> Betreff: [Pharo-users] I18n in pharo >> >> >> Will Pharo 7 be ready for i18n of applications? >> I mean some simple and useful way like in Cincom Visual Works, where translation dictionaries are separated from code and could be dinamycally changed without changing my application. >> >> It is very important for huge commercial applications, especially with lots of UI forms, dialogs and user-messages. >> >> I transfer my code from Cincom VW (VW is not available now for Russia due to politic situation) to Pharo and is very interested in simple internationalization mechanism. I don't want to reinvent the wheel but sometimes it seems to me that pharo developers are forced to do it. >> >> By the way, the error i had last week with clean Pharo 6\Pharo 6.1 installation ("UTF8InvalidText: Invalid utf8 input detected" on image load - error caused by cyrillic path to application folder) didn't solved and i had no feedback from community. >> >> best regards, >> Vikenti Potapov. >> >> > <GetTextNewTools.png> |
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2017-11-09 23:50 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>: I think this is two different problems: Will we include it into the standard image? -- Pavel
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In reply to this post by vikenti
On 09-11-17 21:29, Викентий Потапов wrote:
> > Will Pharo 7 be ready for i18n of applications? With QCMagritte we have provided string translations since Pharo 4 or so. In a Magritte-based application you can just add a visitor that walks the descriptions and extracts what needs translating. We demonstrated a web based interface allowing live translations (and im- and export to csv) for that a few years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTut44Xs3_U It needs updating for Pharo 6/7 again, and is missing things like translating keybindings. I am not so impressed by the gettext functionality but it is something that translators are used to. Stephan |
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In reply to this post by vikenti
You can go with http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~PharoExtras/Gettext
For non latin language you will have to provide extra font at load time. It works fine on DrGeo based on P3, wtih Latin, Cyrilic, Korean, Chinese ideogram, Japanese[1] messages. I have no idea regarding its compatibility with P7 however. Will not work with right to left languages, though. For asian input methods, a no go too. Hilaire [1] https://twitter.com/GNUDrGeo/status/832878470216691712 Le 09/11/2017 à 21:29, Викентий Потапов a écrit : > It is very important for huge commercial applications, especially with lots of UI forms, dialogs and user-messages. -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu |
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It would be nice if someone who uses it would take the lead
so we can improve the default that is shipped with Pharo. > On 10 Nov 2017, at 11:10, Hilaire <[hidden email]> wrote: > > You can go with http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~PharoExtras/Gettext > > For non latin language you will have to provide extra font at load time. > > It works fine on DrGeo based on P3, wtih Latin, Cyrilic, Korean, Chinese ideogram, Japanese[1] messages. > > I have no idea regarding its compatibility with P7 however. > > Will not work with right to left languages, though. > > For asian input methods, a no go too. > > Hilaire > > [1] https://twitter.com/GNUDrGeo/status/832878470216691712 > > Le 09/11/2017 à 21:29, Викентий Потапов a écrit : >> It is very important for huge commercial applications, especially with lots of UI forms, dialogs and user-messages. > > -- > Dr. Geo > http://drgeo.eu > > > |
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In reply to this post by Pavel Krivanek-3
No. The whole idea with PharoExtras was “there are packages we care about and we want to make them available, but there is no reason to keep them *in* image”. I do not see why we should change that policy. Now, we definitively need better documentation about it. Esteban
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But having I18 support is not bad… e.g. there are many programs out there that provide translated menus. It would not be completely a bad idea to do that for Pharo, too. Marcus |
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In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4
A cleaner Pharo will help there.
To be frank, I found later Pharo releases not inspiring. Bigger, bigger and bigger with added code, protocol changes, and bugs at will. It is becoming too complicated for a hobby use of it. I decided I will not finish porting DrGeo to P6 or P7, and it will likely die with P3. Pharo should have been clean up to the bones before adding. It was the initial moto, no? Le 10/11/2017 à 11:14, Marcus Denker a écrit : > It would be nice if someone who uses it would take the lead > so we can improve the default that is shipped with Pharo. -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu |
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On 11/10/17, Hilaire <[hidden email]> wrote:
> A cleaner Pharo will help there. > > To be frank, I found later Pharo releases not inspiring. Bigger, bigger > and bigger with added code, protocol changes, and bugs at will. It is > becoming too complicated for a hobby use of it. > > I decided I will not finish porting DrGeo to P6 or P7, and it will > likely die with P3. What are the main show stoppers which make it difficult to port your application to P6? > > Pharo should have been clean up to the bones before adding. It was the > initial moto, no? > > > Le 10/11/2017 à 11:14, Marcus Denker a écrit : >> It would be nice if someone who uses it would take the lead >> so we can improve the default that is shipped with Pharo. > > -- > Dr. Geo > http://drgeo.eu > > > > |
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Maybe in a different thread...
On 11/10/17, H. Hirzel <[hidden email]> wrote: > On 11/10/17, Hilaire <[hidden email]> wrote: >> A cleaner Pharo will help there. >> >> To be frank, I found later Pharo releases not inspiring. Bigger, bigger >> and bigger with added code, protocol changes, and bugs at will. It is >> becoming too complicated for a hobby use of it. >> >> I decided I will not finish porting DrGeo to P6 or P7, and it will >> likely die with P3. > > What are the main show stoppers which make it difficult to port your > application to P6? > >> >> Pharo should have been clean up to the bones before adding. It was the >> initial moto, no? >> >> >> Le 10/11/2017 à 11:14, Marcus Denker a écrit : >>> It would be nice if someone who uses it would take the lead >>> so we can improve the default that is shipped with Pharo. >> >> -- >> Dr. Geo >> http://drgeo.eu >> >> >> >> > |
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In reply to this post by HilaireFernandes
>
> A cleaner Pharo will help there. > > To be frank, I found later Pharo releases not inspiring. Bigger, bigger and bigger with added code, protocol changes, and bugs at will. It is becoming too complicated for a hobby use of it. It’s quite a moving target with so many fundamental changes (GIT being one, Bootstrap another huge one). But I have the opposite impression (of course I don’t have to maintain a big project like yours - I wouldn’t say you’re the hobby user :) ). But I really find P6 more consistent than what I used to try in the past (last squeaks up to 3.9 and firsts pharo). And the bootstrapping of P7 will (I think) finally solve big image issues (allowing to build cleaner distributions). I believe it will be a huge step forward. At least for me and especially to convince others to try out Pharo. I just dream of having a network of small images running and communicating, eventually accessed and programmed by a larger developper image (with TelePharo). I haven’t tried the bootstrap yet but sure in the future. Plus I have the impression Morphic mess is about to be solved. What’s more problematic to me (as I guess for newcomers) is to find the ‘good’ packages'. For instance, I’m still puzzled when I have to choose between OSProcess and OSSubprocess (and sometimes depending on loaded projects, we need both…). > > I decided I will not finish porting DrGeo to P6 or P7, and it will likely die with P3. > > Pharo should have been clean up to the bones before adding. It was the initial moto, no? I have the (naive) impression that bootstrap will help a lot here, so be patient ;). Maybe porting to P7/P8 will be more appropriate. What I would like, is a kind of notation for package to know its state and usage possibilities. We see for instance that several I18N exists already (but not 100% integrated hence this post)... My 2 cents, Cédrick OT question: Would it be possible in the future to generate a bootstrap image of a given program from a bigger developer image containing running program (like if running tests where activating all code dependancies ? … like tracing usage… I guess this is not trivial at all ! I guess this is particularly difficult to trace all use cases and as dynamically bound, it sure must be hard). > > > Le 10/11/2017 à 11:14, Marcus Denker a écrit : >> It would be nice if someone who uses it would take the lead >> so we can improve the default that is shipped with Pharo. > > -- > Dr. Geo > http://drgeo.eu > > > |
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In reply to this post by Torsten Bergmann
I’d think about porting the I18n Gem from Ruby but replacing Gettext with xliff to be a better, more generalized solution. Cascade in the Ruby Gem is a useful feature missing from other implementations I’ve used. https://github.com/svenfuchs/i18n/tree/master/test http://docs.oasis-open.org/xliff/xliff-core/xliff-core.html It would also likely be easier and more reliable, since the XML support in Pharo is already quite good. Andrew Glynn Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: [hidden email] The Pharo 7/8 roadmap does not (yet) include I18N: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-workingRoadmaps/blob/master/Pharo7/ROADMAP.md and the Pharo core image still includes the "NaturalLanguageTranslator" solution still from Squeak. See this class for more details and all senders of #translated message. So far the whole Pharo UI is in English and while books, the mooc or others were translated the Pharo image so far is not. I guess some more work would be needed also on the font frontier to provide an internationalized image and the different languages. But for own applications (like web applications) there are some more (external) solutions: 1. I once wrote and announced an own I18N framwork: http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/2014-September/100247.html which is fully documented on http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~TorstenBergmann/I18N but is a completely proprietary solution. 2. There is also some stuff from Jan van de Sandt: https://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2012-October/070652.html 3. And there is GetText (from Seaside web framework) which I guess is either here http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~PharoExtras/Gettext or now maintained here: https://github.com/SeasideSt/Seaside/wiki/Gettext Unfortunately back at the time this one was not independently loadable and had other trouble which I critisized on http://forum.world.st/ANN-Easy-I18N-for-Pharo-td4778194.html Maybe situation for this project has improved. But so far nobody pushed I18N really into Pharo ... 4. Therefore back in 2014 I started with a consolidation by starting a clean room implementation of Gettext - based on code from 3. but now with tests and Pharo Spec based tools (see screenshot attached). I did it in an own repo to be able to experiment and not break the Seaside solution right in the beginning. My code is on STHub http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~TorstenBergmann/Gettext and it is not yet fully usable and so far still unfinished But one can load the project still in Pharo 7 using Gofer it smalltalkhubUser: 'TorstenBergmann' project: 'Gettext'; configuration; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGettext) project bleedingEdge load All 11 Tests are green so at least what is there should work. Check the world menu and the code. Load the "Foo" package from the same repository to see something in the tools. The idea was to have support for MO and PO files completely written in Smalltalk as well as tools that allow you to find and translate internationalized text. But as always: this would require more work. I would still favour a fully in Pharo written solution (following the gettext formats) but maybe for performance reasons then also bind to libgettext using UFFI. Hope this gives some insights on the current existing solutions/status. Thanks Torsten > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 09. November 2017 um 21:29 Uhr > Von: "Викентий Потапов" <[hidden email]> > An: [hidden email] > Betreff: [Pharo-users] I18n in pharo > > > Will Pharo 7 be ready for i18n of applications? > I mean some simple and useful way like in Cincom Visual Works, where translation dictionaries are separated from code and could be dinamycally changed without changing my application. > > It is very important for huge commercial applications, especially with lots of UI forms, dialogs and user-messages. > > I transfer my code from Cincom VW (VW is not available now for Russia due to politic situation) to Pharo and is very interested in simple internationalization mechanism. I don't want to reinvent the wheel but sometimes it seems to me that pharo developers are forced to do it. > > By the way, the error i had last week with clean Pharo 6\Pharo 6.1 installation ("UTF8InvalidText: Invalid utf8 input detected" on image load - error caused by cyrillic path to application folder) didn't solved and i had no feedback from community. > > best regards, > Vikenti Potapov. > > > |
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There’s an online translation service for XLIff files (well, there’s quite a few but most I’ve found use human translators, and as a result cost a fair bit). It’s not free either, but for 2-3 languages it’s relatively reasonable at $19/mo., and a couple of months’ subscription would allow for a fair number of automated translations which could be quickly tweaked. Mojito allows you to integrate the Xliff translation as part of a Travis CI build. It’s written in Java but supports localization for a number of languages, which implies it wouldn’t take much modification to support Pharo. There’s also a number of Xliff editors on GitHub, including a plugin for Oxygen XML, which I happen to use when I do edit XML rather than using IADS with SGML and exporting XML. Not sure if this is the kind of thing you’re looking for, but it might be a quick way to get key applications’ text translated and be used by a relatively simple Pharo / Seaside tool. It’s even possible that a decent modification of Mojito might allow semi-automated translations using LingoHub. Andrew Glynn From: [hidden email] I’d think about porting the I18n Gem from Ruby but replacing Gettext with xliff to be a better, more generalized solution. Cascade in the Ruby Gem is a useful feature missing from other implementations I’ve used. https://github.com/svenfuchs/i18n/tree/master/test http://docs.oasis-open.org/xliff/xliff-core/xliff-core.html It would also likely be easier and more reliable, since the XML support in Pharo is already quite good. Andrew Glynn Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: [hidden email] The Pharo 7/8 roadmap does not (yet) include I18N: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-workingRoadmaps/blob/master/Pharo7/ROADMAP.md and the Pharo core image still includes the "NaturalLanguageTranslator" solution still from Squeak. See this class for more details and all senders of #translated message. So far the whole Pharo UI is in English and while books, the mooc or others were translated the Pharo image so far is not. I guess some more work would be needed also on the font frontier to provide an internationalized image and the different languages. But for own applications (like web applications) there are some more (external) solutions: 1. I once wrote and announced an own I18N framwork: http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/2014-September/100247.html which is fully documented on http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~TorstenBergmann/I18N but is a completely proprietary solution. 2. There is also some stuff from Jan van de Sandt: https://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2012-October/070652.html 3. And there is GetText (from Seaside web framework) which I guess is either here http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~PharoExtras/Gettext or now maintained here: https://github.com/SeasideSt/Seaside/wiki/Gettext Unfortunately back at the time this one was not independently loadable and had other trouble which I critisized on http://forum.world.st/ANN-Easy-I18N-for-Pharo-td4778194.html Maybe situation for this project has improved. But so far nobody pushed I18N really into Pharo ... 4. Therefore back in 2014 I started with a consolidation by starting a clean room implementation of Gettext - based on code from 3. but now with tests and Pharo Spec based tools (see screenshot attached). I did it in an own repo to be able to experiment and not break the Seaside solution right in the beginning. My code is on STHub http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~TorstenBergmann/Gettext and it is not yet fully usable and so far still unfinished But one can load the project still in Pharo 7 using Gofer it smalltalkhubUser: 'TorstenBergmann' project: 'Gettext'; configuration; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGettext) project bleedingEdge load All 11 Tests are green so at least what is there should work. Check the world menu and the code. Load the "Foo" package from the same repository to see something in the tools. The idea was to have support for MO and PO files completely written in Smalltalk as well as tools that allow you to find and translate internationalized text. But as always: this would require more work. I would still favour a fully in Pharo written solution (following the gettext formats) but maybe for performance reasons then also bind to libgettext using UFFI. Hope this gives some insights on the current existing solutions/status. Thanks Torsten > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 09. November 2017 um 21:29 Uhr > Von: "Викентий Потапов" <[hidden email]> > An: [hidden email] > Betreff: [Pharo-users] I18n in pharo > > > Will Pharo 7 be ready for i18n of applications? > I mean some simple and useful way like in Cincom Visual Works, where translation dictionaries are separated from code and could be dinamycally changed without changing my application. > > It is very important for huge commercial applications, especially with lots of UI forms, dialogs and user-messages. > > I transfer my code from Cincom VW (VW is not available now for Russia due to politic situation) to Pharo and is very interested in simple internationalization mechanism. I don't want to reinvent the wheel but sometimes it seems to me that pharo developers are forced to do it. > > By the way, the error i had last week with clean Pharo 6\Pharo 6.1 installation ("UTF8InvalidText: Invalid utf8 input detected" on image load - error caused by cyrillic path to application folder) didn't solved and i had no feedback from community. > > best regards, > Vikenti Potapov. > > > |
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In reply to this post by Torsten Bergmann
Hi torsten
Thanks for your summary. I was lost with all the efforts around. Two points: - I do not think that Pharo IDE should be multilingual - I would love to have one or two strong solutions for Application internationalisation. Now Questions: - what do you mean by propretiary solution. The license is MIT. - I think that it would be good to have your solution and getText ready to be loaded and for me this would be nice. Now I have a question how people developing seaside components manage to have internationalised version? Stef On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 10:58 PM, Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]> wrote: > The Pharo 7/8 roadmap does not (yet) include I18N: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-workingRoadmaps/blob/master/Pharo7/ROADMAP.md > > and the Pharo core image still includes the "NaturalLanguageTranslator" solution still from Squeak. See this class for more details and > all senders of #translated message. So far the whole Pharo UI is in English and while books, the mooc or others were translated the Pharo > image so far is not. > I guess some more work would be needed also on the font frontier to provide an internationalized image and the different languages. > > > > But for own applications (like web applications) there are some more (external) solutions: > > > 1. I once wrote and announced an own I18N framwork: http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/2014-September/100247.html > which is fully documented on http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~TorstenBergmann/I18N but is a completely proprietary solution. > > 2. There is also some stuff from Jan van de Sandt: > https://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2012-October/070652.html > > 3. And there is GetText (from Seaside web framework) which I guess is either here http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~PharoExtras/Gettext > or now maintained here: https://github.com/SeasideSt/Seaside/wiki/Gettext > > Unfortunately back at the time this one was not independently loadable and had other trouble which I critisized on > http://forum.world.st/ANN-Easy-I18N-for-Pharo-td4778194.html > > Maybe situation for this project has improved. > > > But so far nobody pushed I18N really into Pharo ... > > 4. Therefore back in 2014 I started with a consolidation by starting a clean room implementation of Gettext - based on code from 3. > but now with tests and Pharo Spec based tools (see screenshot attached). I did it in an own repo to be able to experiment and > not break the Seaside solution right in the beginning. > > My code is on STHub http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~TorstenBergmann/Gettext and it is not yet fully usable and so far still > unfinished > > But one can load the project still in Pharo 7 using > > Gofer it > smalltalkhubUser: 'TorstenBergmann' project: 'Gettext'; > configuration; > load. > > (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGettext) project bleedingEdge load > > All 11 Tests are green so at least what is there should work. Check the world menu and the code. Load the "Foo" package from the same repository > to see something in the tools. The idea was to have support for MO and PO files completely written in Smalltalk as well as tools that allow you > to find and translate internationalized text. > > But as always: this would require more work. I would still favour a fully in Pharo written solution (following the gettext formats) but maybe for > performance reasons then also bind to libgettext using UFFI. > > > Hope this gives some insights on the current existing solutions/status. > > Thanks > Torsten > > >> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 09. November 2017 um 21:29 Uhr >> Von: "Викентий Потапов" <[hidden email]> >> An: [hidden email] >> Betreff: [Pharo-users] I18n in pharo >> >> >> Will Pharo 7 be ready for i18n of applications? >> I mean some simple and useful way like in Cincom Visual Works, where translation dictionaries are separated from code and could be dinamycally changed without changing my application. >> >> It is very important for huge commercial applications, especially with lots of UI forms, dialogs and user-messages. >> >> I transfer my code from Cincom VW (VW is not available now for Russia due to politic situation) to Pharo and is very interested in simple internationalization mechanism. I don't want to reinvent the wheel but sometimes it seems to me that pharo developers are forced to do it. >> >> By the way, the error i had last week with clean Pharo 6\Pharo 6.1 installation ("UTF8InvalidText: Invalid utf8 input detected" on image load - error caused by cyrillic path to application folder) didn't solved and i had no feedback from community. >> >> best regards, >> Vikenti Potapov. >> >> >> |
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In reply to this post by Pavel Krivanek-3
Hi Pavel
Does it make sense to have loaded by default? Stef On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 8:05 AM, Pavel Krivanek <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > 2017-11-09 23:50 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>: >> >> I think this is two different problems: >> >> 1. pharo itself supporting different languages/keyboards, etc. >> 2. pharo allowing the development of i18n applications >> >> I think we still need to work on point 1, but for point 2 we already have >> gettext package, which is a standard we can/should use. Maybe that needs to >> be better documented (as everything), but well… we have a solution there :) > > > Will we include it into the standard image? > > -- Pavel > >> >> Esteban >> >> > On 9 Nov 2017, at 18:58, Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]> wrote: >> > >> > The Pharo 7/8 roadmap does not (yet) include I18N: >> > https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-workingRoadmaps/blob/master/Pharo7/ROADMAP.md >> > >> > and the Pharo core image still includes the "NaturalLanguageTranslator" >> > solution still from Squeak. See this class for more details and >> > all senders of #translated message. So far the whole Pharo UI is in >> > English and while books, the mooc or others were translated the Pharo >> > image so far is not. >> > I guess some more work would be needed also on the font frontier to >> > provide an internationalized image and the different languages. >> > >> > >> > >> > But for own applications (like web applications) there are some more >> > (external) solutions: >> > >> > >> > 1. I once wrote and announced an own I18N framwork: >> > http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/2014-September/100247.html >> > which is fully documented on >> > http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~TorstenBergmann/I18N but is a completely >> > proprietary solution. >> > >> > 2. There is also some stuff from Jan van de Sandt: >> > >> > https://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2012-October/070652.html >> > >> > 3. And there is GetText (from Seaside web framework) which I guess is >> > either here http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~PharoExtras/Gettext >> > or now maintained here: >> > https://github.com/SeasideSt/Seaside/wiki/Gettext >> > >> > Unfortunately back at the time this one was not independently loadable >> > and had other trouble which I critisized on >> > http://forum.world.st/ANN-Easy-I18N-for-Pharo-td4778194.html >> > >> > Maybe situation for this project has improved. >> > >> > >> > But so far nobody pushed I18N really into Pharo ... >> > >> > 4. Therefore back in 2014 I started with a consolidation by starting a >> > clean room implementation of Gettext - based on code from 3. >> > but now with tests and Pharo Spec based tools (see screenshot >> > attached). I did it in an own repo to be able to experiment and >> > not break the Seaside solution right in the beginning. >> > >> > My code is on STHub >> > http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~TorstenBergmann/Gettext and it is not yet fully >> > usable and so far still >> > unfinished >> > >> > But one can load the project still in Pharo 7 using >> > >> > Gofer it >> > smalltalkhubUser: 'TorstenBergmann' project: 'Gettext'; >> > configuration; >> > load. >> > >> > (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGettext) project bleedingEdge load >> > >> > All 11 Tests are green so at least what is there should work. Check >> > the world menu and the code. Load the "Foo" package from the same repository >> > to see something in the tools. The idea was to have support for MO and >> > PO files completely written in Smalltalk as well as tools that allow you >> > to find and translate internationalized text. >> > >> > But as always: this would require more work. I would still favour a >> > fully in Pharo written solution (following the gettext formats) but maybe >> > for >> > performance reasons then also bind to libgettext using UFFI. >> > >> > >> > Hope this gives some insights on the current existing solutions/status. >> > >> > Thanks >> > Torsten >> > >> > >> >> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 09. November 2017 um 21:29 Uhr >> >> Von: "Викентий Потапов" <[hidden email]> >> >> An: [hidden email] >> >> Betreff: [Pharo-users] I18n in pharo >> >> >> >> >> >> Will Pharo 7 be ready for i18n of applications? >> >> I mean some simple and useful way like in Cincom Visual Works, where >> >> translation dictionaries are separated from code and could be dinamycally >> >> changed without changing my application. >> >> >> >> It is very important for huge commercial applications, especially with >> >> lots of UI forms, dialogs and user-messages. >> >> >> >> I transfer my code from Cincom VW (VW is not available now for Russia >> >> due to politic situation) to Pharo and is very interested in simple >> >> internationalization mechanism. I don't want to reinvent the wheel but >> >> sometimes it seems to me that pharo developers are forced to do it. >> >> >> >> By the way, the error i had last week with clean Pharo 6\Pharo 6.1 >> >> installation ("UTF8InvalidText: Invalid utf8 input detected" on image load - >> >> error caused by cyrillic path to application folder) didn't solved and i had >> >> no feedback from community. >> >> >> >> best regards, >> >> Vikenti Potapov. >> >> >> >> >> > <GetTextNewTools.png> >> >> > |
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