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Stephane Ducasse-3

Re: I18n in pharo

tx hiliare for the feedback.

On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 11:10 AM, Hilaire <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You can go with http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~PharoExtras/Gettext
>
> For non latin language you will have to provide extra font at load time.
>
> It works fine on DrGeo based on P3, wtih Latin, Cyrilic, Korean, Chinese
> ideogram, Japanese[1] messages.
>
> I have no idea regarding its compatibility with P7 however.
>
> Will not work with right to left languages, though.
>
> For asian input methods, a no go too.
>
> Hilaire
>
> [1] https://twitter.com/GNUDrGeo/status/832878470216691712
>
>
> Le 09/11/2017 à 21:29, Викентий Потапов a écrit :
>>
>> It is very important for huge commercial applications, especially with
>> lots of UI forms, dialogs and user-messages.
>
>
> --
> Dr. Geo
> http://drgeo.eu
>
>
>

Stephane Ducasse-3

Re: I18n in pharo

In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4

Marcus
translate is incomplete and I would not focus on translating Pharo. I
would prefer to improve the self documentation in english.
Let us concentrate where we can get better.

Stef

On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 11:20 AM, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On 10 Nov 2017, at 11:18, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 10 Nov 2017, at 04:05, Pavel Krivanek <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> 2017-11-09 23:50 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> I think this is two different problems:
>>
>> 1. pharo itself supporting different languages/keyboards, etc.
>> 2. pharo allowing the development of i18n applications
>>
>> I think we still need to work on point 1, but for point 2 we already have
>> gettext package, which is a standard we can/should use. Maybe that needs to
>> be better documented (as everything), but well… we have a solution there :)
>
>
> Will we include it into the standard image?
>
>
> No. The whole idea with PharoExtras was “there are packages we care about
> and we want to make them available, but there is no reason to keep them *in*
> image”.
> I do not see why we should change that policy.
>
> Now, we definitively need better documentation about it.
>
>
> But having I18 support is not bad… e.g. there are many programs out there
> that provide translated menus.
> It would not be completely a bad idea to do that for Pharo, too.
>
> Marcus
>

Stephane Ducasse-3

Re: I18n in pharo

In reply to this post by HilaireFernandes

Hilaire

I think that Pharo is getting a lot more modular. Do you imagine that
we can reload Morphic? That we have a minimal image
that does not rely on the compiler? and that we can reload the
compiler, SUnit and more.
We will start another pass because we will run an experience to get microPharo.
Did you see the amazonLambda experience?

Many people are telling to us that Pharo and that the system is
improving and it is really improving.
Now we do not make progress without breaking eggs. And we are cleaning
but probably things that
you do not care: such as startup list, streams, layouts
We will throw away a lot of code with Bloc too.

> A cleaner Pharo will help there.
>
> To be frank, I found later Pharo releases not inspiring. Bigger, bigger and
> bigger with added code, protocol changes, and bugs at will.

Hilaire
- when did you report bugs that we did not consider? and that we did
not fix if it was something that we could do fast?

> It is becoming
> too complicated for a hobby use of it.
>
> I decided I will not finish porting DrGeo to P6 or P7, and it will likely
> die with P3.

I'm sad that you decided that because we like DrGeo. Now we cannot do
much if you do not want to do it.
May be you should come to visit us from time to time.

> Pharo should have been clean up to the bones before adding. It was the
> initial moto, no?

And this is what we are doing.
But seriously do you think that it is easy?
Did you look at the ESUG videos of Prague. I can tell you that
christophe, pavel and guille
worked several months and this is not just for hacking around.

So you probably do not know what we did and what we are doing.

Stef

>
>
> Le 10/11/2017 à 11:14, Marcus Denker a écrit :
>>
>> It would be nice if someone who uses it would take the lead
>> so we can improve the default that is shipped with Pharo.
>
>
> --
> Dr. Geo
> http://drgeo.eu
>
>
>

Stephane Ducasse-3

Re: I18n in pharo

In reply to this post by cedreek

>
> It’s quite a moving target with so many fundamental changes (GIT being one, Bootstrap another huge one).

I would not call it moving target. The API changes slowly and we
deprecate most of them.

> But I have the opposite impression (of course I don’t have to maintain a big project like yours - I wouldn’t say you’re the hobby user :) ). But I really find P6 more consistent than what I used to try in the past (last squeaks up to 3.9 and firsts pharo).

Me too.

> And the bootstrapping of P7 will (I think) finally solve big image issues (allowing to build cleaner distributions). I believe it will be a huge step forward. At least for me and especially to convince others to try out Pharo.
> I just dream of having a network of small images running and communicating, eventually accessed and programmed by a larger developper image (with TelePharo).

Yes we want the same.

> I haven’t tried the bootstrap yet but sure in the future.

It is working already and you can use the Bootstrap. Pavel has been
working on providing package and configurations that we can reload.

> Plus I have the impression Morphic mess is about to be solved.

Well I hope :)

> What’s more problematic to me (as I guess for newcomers) is to find the ‘good’ packages'. For instance, I’m still puzzled when I have to choose between OSProcess and OSSubprocess (and sometimes depending on loaded projects, we need both…).

People should document their packages and publish them in the meta catalog.
We cannot do more.
We should publish a package market but we are behind our plans.

>
>>
>> I decided I will not finish porting DrGeo to P6 or P7, and it will likely die with P3.
>>
>> Pharo should have been clean up to the bones before adding. It was the initial moto, no?
>
> I have the (naive) impression that bootstrap will help a lot here, so be patient ;). Maybe porting to P7/P8 will be more appropriate.
> What I would like, is a kind of notation for package to know its state and usage possibilities.
> We see for instance that several I18N exists already (but not 100% integrated hence this post)...
>
> My 2 cents,
>
> Cédrick
>
>
> OT question: Would it be possible in the future to generate a bootstrap image of a given program from a bigger developer image containing running program (like if running tests where activating all code dependancies ? … like tracing usage… I guess this is not trivial at all ! I guess this is particularly difficult to trace all use cases and as dynamically bound, it sure must be hard).

Yes guille did it with tornado.
Now it was experiemental.
You will be in better shape to take the miniimage and load what you need.

>
>>
>>
>> Le 10/11/2017 à 11:14, Marcus Denker a écrit :
>>> It would be nice if someone who uses it would take the lead
>>> so we can improve the default that is shipped with Pharo.
>>
>> --
>> Dr. Geo
>> http://drgeo.eu
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Pavel Krivanek-3

Re: I18n in pharo

In reply to this post by Stephane Ducasse-3

2017-11-11 12:16 GMT+01:00 Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]>:

Hi Pavel

Does it make sense to have loaded by default?

I'm not sure. For Pharo itself it does not make sense to be translated but the applications can use some standard Pharo services like inform/confirm dialogs, file dialog etc. So if they want to use some external translation mechanism, they will fight to two different frameworks.

-- Pavel

Stef

On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 8:05 AM, Pavel Krivanek
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> 2017-11-09 23:50 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> I think this is two different problems:
>>
>> 1. pharo itself supporting different languages/keyboards, etc.
>> 2. pharo allowing the development of i18n applications
>>
>> I think we still need to work on point 1, but for point 2 we already have
>> gettext package, which is a standard we can/should use. Maybe that needs to
>> be better documented (as everything), but well… we have a solution there :)
>
>
> Will we include it into the standard image?
>
> -- Pavel
>
>>
>> Esteban
>>
>> > On 9 Nov 2017, at 18:58, Torsten Bergmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> > The Pharo 7/8 roadmap does not (yet) include I18N:
>> > https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-workingRoadmaps/blob/master/Pharo7/ROADMAP.md
>> >
>> > and the Pharo core image still includes the "NaturalLanguageTranslator"
>> > solution still from Squeak. See this class for more details and
>> > all senders of #translated message. So far the whole Pharo UI is in
>> > English and while books, the mooc or others were translated the Pharo
>> > image so far is not.
>> > I guess some more work would be needed also on the font frontier to
>> > provide an internationalized image and the different languages.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > But for own applications (like web applications) there are some more
>> > (external) solutions:
>> >
>> >
>> > 1. I once wrote and announced an own I18N framwork:
>> > http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/2014-September/100247.html
>> > which is fully documented on
>> > http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~TorstenBergmann/I18N but is a completely
>> > proprietary solution.
>> >
>> > 2. There is also some stuff from Jan van de Sandt:
>> >
>> > https://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2012-October/070652.html
>> >
>> > 3. And there is GetText (from Seaside web framework) which I guess is
>> > either here http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~PharoExtras/Gettext
>> > or now maintained here:
>> > https://github.com/SeasideSt/Seaside/wiki/Gettext
>> >
>> > Unfortunately back at the time this one was not independently loadable
>> > and had other trouble which I critisized on
>> > http://forum.world.st/ANN-Easy-I18N-for-Pharo-td4778194.html
>> >
>> > Maybe situation for this project has improved.
>> >
>> >
>> > But so far nobody pushed I18N really into Pharo ...
>> >
>> > 4. Therefore back in 2014 I started with a consolidation by starting a
>> > clean room implementation of Gettext - based on code from 3.
>> > but now with tests and Pharo Spec based tools (see screenshot
>> > attached). I did it in an own repo to be able to experiment and
>> > not break the Seaside solution right in the beginning.
>> >
>> > My code is on STHub
>> > http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~TorstenBergmann/Gettext and it is not yet fully
>> > usable and so far still
>> > unfinished
>> >
>> > But one can load the project still in Pharo 7 using
>> >
>> > Gofer it
>> > smalltalkhubUser: 'TorstenBergmann' project: 'Gettext';
>> > configuration;
>> > load.
>> >
>> > (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGettext) project bleedingEdge load
>> >
>> > All 11 Tests are green so at least what is there should work. Check
>> > the world menu and the code. Load the "Foo" package from the same repository
>> > to see something in the tools. The idea was to have support for MO and
>> > PO files completely written in Smalltalk as well as tools that allow you
>> > to find and translate internationalized text.
>> >
>> > But as always: this would require more work. I would still favour a
>> > fully in Pharo written solution (following the gettext formats) but maybe
>> > for
>> > performance reasons then also bind to libgettext using UFFI.
>> >
>> >
>> > Hope this gives some insights on the current existing solutions/status.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> > Torsten
>> >
>> >
>> >> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 09. November 2017 um 21:29 Uhr
>> >> Von: "Викентий Потапов" <[hidden email]>
>> >> An: [hidden email]
>> >> Betreff: [Pharo-users] I18n in pharo
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Will Pharo 7 be ready for i18n of applications?
>> >> I mean some simple and useful way like in Cincom Visual Works, where
>> >> translation dictionaries are separated from code and could be dinamycally
>> >> changed without changing my application.
>> >>
>> >> It is very important for huge commercial applications, especially with
>> >> lots of UI forms, dialogs and user-messages.
>> >>
>> >> I transfer my code from Cincom VW (VW is not available now for Russia
>> >> due to politic situation) to Pharo and is very interested in simple
>> >> internationalization mechanism. I don't want to reinvent the wheel but
>> >> sometimes it seems to me that pharo developers are forced to do it.
>> >>
>> >> By the way, the error i had last week with clean Pharo 6\Pharo 6.1
>> >> installation ("UTF8InvalidText: Invalid utf8 input detected" on image load -
>> >> error caused by cyrillic path to application folder) didn't solved and i had
>> >> no feedback from community.
>> >>
>> >> best regards,
>> >> Vikenti Potapov.
>> >>
>> >>
>> > <GetTextNewTools.png>
>>
>>
>

Stephan Eggermont-3

Re: I18n in pharo

In reply to this post by cedreek

On 10-11-17 12:23, Cédrick Béler wrote:
> Plus I have the impression Morphic mess is about to be solved.

There is still an awful lot of essential complexity in beautiful
graphics and typography that is not going away. Microsoft Word still
cannot layout a paragraph of text after 34 years of development

Stephan

Hannes Hirzel

Re: I18n in pharo

On 11/11/17, stephan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 10-11-17 12:23, Cédrick Béler wrote:
>> Plus I have the impression Morphic mess is about to be solved.
>
> There is still an awful lot of essential complexity in beautiful
> graphics and typography that is not going away. Microsoft Word still
> cannot layout a paragraph of text after 34 years of development

Can you point to an example of this?

--Hannes

> Stephan
>
>
>

HilaireFernandes

Re: I18n in pharo

In reply to this post by cedreek

P6 is definitely a better IDE compare to previous version, and for
coming Calypso looks fantastic, but P6 is a worst vehicle for a desktop
application. There is much more code included and you are on your on to
shrink/clean it to deploy your desktop application to make it looks and
behave user friendly. May be for a specialized audience it could be just
fine to deploy as is.

About my perception on Pharo, from a distant POV, I see
parallel/overlapping/contiguous layers like Morphic, Athens, Sparta,
Bloc, Brick, Spec, GT, Polymorph all this looks confusing for me and I
really don't know or understand where to put my eggs.

When I took a look at Pharo keyboard shortcut, it seems to be -- without
been sure 100% -- there are two different implementations. One from GT
and another one, probably a legacy one. How can it happen? Then you
wonder about other part of the system. It makes fells like
changes/implementations are not coherent, and you don't really fell the
environment as coherent or trustful.

May be the twist is ontological, Pharo (and Squeak) taking too much
responsibilities and not delegating enough to the host environment: GUI,
Freetype, Canvas. The energy required is then out of reach or the needed
coherence in teams works too complex. Don't know, just blind guesses, I
will now shut up.

Le 10/11/2017 à 12:23, Cédrick Béler a écrit :
> But I have the opposite impression (of course I don’t have to maintain a big project like yours - I wouldn’t say you’re the hobby user:) ). But I really find P6 more consistent than what I used to try in the past (last squeaks up to 3.9 and firsts pharo).

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu

http://drgeo.eu

Stephan Eggermont-3

Re: I18n in pharo

In reply to this post by Hannes Hirzel

On 11-11-17 21:18, H. Hirzel wrote:
> On 11/11/17, stephan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 10-11-17 12:23, Cédrick Béler wrote:
>>> Plus I have the impression Morphic mess is about to be solved.
>>
>> There is still an awful lot of essential complexity in beautiful
>> graphics and typography that is not going away. Microsoft Word still
>> cannot layout a paragraph of text after 34 years of development
>
> Can you point to an example of this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtypography

Stephan

Aliaksei Syrel

Re: I18n in pharo

Hi Hilaire,

About my perception on Pharo, from a distant POV, I see parallel/overlapping/contiguous layers like Morphic, Athens, Sparta, Bloc, Brick, Spec, GT,

Could you, please, explain in a bit more detail why do you think that Sparta, Bloc, Brick and GT are overlapping layers?

In attachment you can find a layered architecture diagram that explains how those technologies are stacked from our point of view :)

Cheers,

Alex

On 11 November 2017 at 21:48, stephan <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 11-11-17 21:18, H. Hirzel wrote:

On 11/11/17, stephan <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 10-11-17 12:23, Cédrick Béler wrote:

Plus I have the impression Morphic mess is about to be solved.

There is still an awful lot of essential complexity in beautiful
graphics and typography that is not going away. Microsoft Word still
cannot layout a paragraph of text after 34 years of development

Can you point to an example of this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtypography

Stephan

Pavel Krivanek-3

Re: I18n in pharo

In reply to this post by HilaireFernandes

2017-11-10 11:52 GMT+01:00 Hilaire <[hidden email]>:

A cleaner Pharo will help there.

To be frank, I found later Pharo releases not inspiring. Bigger, bigger and bigger with added code, protocol changes, and bugs at will. It is becoming too complicated for a hobby use of it.

I decided I will not finish porting DrGeo to P6 or P7, and it will likely die with P3.

To run DrGeo on Pharo 7 is not hard (see the screenshot) - of course it has some issues but they can be definitely solved. It would be pity to throw it away - at least you can benefit from 64-bit and faster VM.

-- Pavel

Pharo should have been clean up to the bones before adding. It was the initial moto, no?

Le 10/11/2017 à 11:14, Marcus Denker a écrit :

It would be nice if someone who uses it would take the lead
so we can improve the default that is shipped with Pharo.

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu

DrGeo-Pharo7.png (172K) Download Attachment

Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2

Re: I18n in pharo

In reply to this post by Aliaksei Syrel

Thanks for the diagram Aliaksei. It helps to understand the Pharo buildings blocks. Where Spec would be located there?

Cheers,

Offray

On 11/11/17 15:56, Aliaksei Syrel wrote:

Hi Hilaire,

About my perception on Pharo, from a distant POV, I see parallel/overlapping/contiguous layers like Morphic, Athens, Sparta, Bloc, Brick, Spec, GT,

Could you, please, explain in a bit more detail why do you think that Sparta, Bloc, Brick and GT are overlapping layers?

In attachment you can find a layered architecture diagram that explains how those technologies are stacked from our point of view :)

Cheers,
Alex

On 11 November 2017 at 21:48, stephan <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 11-11-17 21:18, H. Hirzel wrote:

On 11/11/17, stephan <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 10-11-17 12:23, Cédrick Béler wrote:

Plus I have the impression Morphic mess is about to be solved.

There is still an awful lot of essential complexity in beautiful
graphics and typography that is not going away. Microsoft Word still
cannot layout a paragraph of text after 34 years of development

Can you point to an example of this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtypography

Stephan

cedreek

Pharo Desktop apps (and deployment) (was: Re: I18n in pharo)

In reply to this post by HilaireFernandes

Just change the subject as this is not (only) on I18n.

As a summary and from my impression (I just dive into pharo more seriously these days).

> Le 11 nov. 2017 à 21:29, Hilaire <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> P6 is definitely a better IDE compare to previous version, and for coming Calypso looks fantastic, but P6 is a worst vehicle for a desktop application. There is much more code included and you are on your on to shrink/clean it to deploy your desktop application to make it looks and behave user friendly. May be for a specialized audience it could be just fine to deploy as is.

So it’s more a problem of deployment here. To me P6 is the last « fat image » artefact. P7 will definitely be better here (even if of course one must learn to create image differently - and of course the process might be quite fragile at first and error prone).
Still my impression but P7 looks more appropriate for doing desktop app versus P6.

>
> About my perception on Pharo, from a distant POV, I see parallel/overlapping/contiguous layers like Morphic, Athens, Sparta, Bloc, Brick, Spec, GT, Polymorph all this looks confusing for me and I really don't know or understand where to put my eggs.

It is to me too (hence something else to learn). But again personally, this is the first time I think of doing desktop applications in Pharo/ST (before, it was a no go => web apps only). Still, I wait another iteration to dive into (I just read brick and block doc).

>
> When I took a look at Pharo keyboard shortcut, it seems to be -- without been sure 100% -- there are two different implementations. One from GT and another one, probably a legacy one. How can it happen? Then you wonder about other part of the system. It makes fells like changes/implementations are not coherent, and you don't really fell the environment as coherent or trustful.

Probable as the new rendering stack must be used and improved. I can’t make some shortcuts (native) working like CMD+SHIFT+W for instance...

>
> May be the twist is ontological, Pharo (and Squeak) taking too much responsibilities and not delegating enough to the host environment: GUI, Freetype, Canvas. The energy required is then out of reach or the needed coherence in teams works too complex. Don't know, just blind guesses, I will now shut up.

I don’t think you have to shut up :)
Dr Geo is a quite complex software the used a lot morphic I think, so it is also a perfect candidate to see how switching to Bloc/Brick is possible/interesting :)
I just have the impression that P7 would be more appropriate than P6 for upgrading it.

Again, only my 2 cents,

Cédrick

>
>
> Le 10/11/2017 à 12:23, Cédrick Béler a écrit :
>> But I have the opposite impression (of course I don’t have to maintain a big project like yours - I wouldn’t say you’re the hobby user:) ). But I really find P6 more consistent than what I used to try in the past (last squeaks up to 3.9 and firsts pharo).
>
> --
> Dr. Geo
> http://drgeo.eu
>
>
>

HilaireFernandes

Re: I18n in pharo

In reply to this post by Aliaksei Syrel

Likely your extracted list from the items I mentionned is contiguous :)

Looks like a big sandwich, though.

Will Athne be throwm away? With Polymorph and Morph?

Le 11/11/2017 à 21:56, Aliaksei Syrel a écrit :
> Could you, please, explain in a bit more detail why do you think that
> Sparta, Bloc, Brick and GT are overlapping layers?
>
> In attachment you can find a layered architecture diagram that
> explains how those technologies are stacked _from our_ point of view :)
> Inline images 1

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu

http://drgeo.eu

HilaireFernandes

Re: I18n in pharo

In reply to this post by Pavel Krivanek-3

I guess you used the latest source code version, which was reto-porting
to P3.

The prior one should get you a correct layout.

Le 12/11/2017 à 00:13, Pavel Krivanek a écrit :
> To run DrGeo on Pharo 7 is not hard (see the screenshot) - of course
> it has some issues but they can be definitely solved. It would be pity
> to throw it away - at least you can benefit from 64-bit and faster VM.

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu

http://drgeo.eu

Stephane Ducasse-3

Re: I18n in pharo

In reply to this post by Pavel Krivanek-3

Excellent Pavel. This is great.
So I do not get it. What is then not working?

Stef

On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 12:13 AM, Pavel Krivanek
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> 2017-11-10 11:52 GMT+01:00 Hilaire <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> A cleaner Pharo will help there.
>>
>> To be frank, I found later Pharo releases not inspiring. Bigger, bigger
>> and bigger with added code, protocol changes, and bugs at will. It is
>> becoming too complicated for a hobby use of it.
>>
>> I decided I will not finish porting DrGeo to P6 or P7, and it will likely
>> die with P3.
>
>
> To run DrGeo on Pharo 7 is not hard (see the screenshot) - of course it has
> some issues but they can be definitely solved. It would be pity to throw it
> away - at least you can benefit from 64-bit and faster VM.
>
> -- Pavel
>
>>
>> Pharo should have been clean up to the bones before adding. It was the
>> initial moto, no?
>>
>>
>> Le 10/11/2017 à 11:14, Marcus Denker a écrit :
>>>
>>> It would be nice if someone who uses it would take the lead
>>> so we can improve the default that is shipped with Pharo.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dr. Geo
>> http://drgeo.eu
>>
>>
>>
>

Stephane Ducasse-3

Re: I18n in pharo

In reply to this post by Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2

Spec is at the same level than GTtoolkit. On top of available widgets.

On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 12:59 AM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks for the diagram Aliaksei. It helps to understand the Pharo buildings blocks. Where Spec would be located there?

Cheers,

Offray

On 11/11/17 15:56, Aliaksei Syrel wrote:

Hi Hilaire,

About my perception on Pharo, from a distant POV, I see parallel/overlapping/contiguous layers like Morphic, Athens, Sparta, Bloc, Brick, Spec, GT,

Could you, please, explain in a bit more detail why do you think that Sparta, Bloc, Brick and GT are overlapping layers?

In attachment you can find a layered architecture diagram that explains how those technologies are stacked from our point of view :)

Cheers,
Alex

On 11 November 2017 at 21:48, stephan <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 11-11-17 21:18, H. Hirzel wrote:

On 11/11/17, stephan <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 10-11-17 12:23, Cédrick Béler wrote:

Plus I have the impression Morphic mess is about to be solved.

There is still an awful lot of essential complexity in beautiful
graphics and typography that is not going away. Microsoft Word still
cannot layout a paragraph of text after 34 years of development

Can you point to an example of this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtypography

Stephan

Stephane Ducasse-3

Re: I18n in pharo

In reply to this post by HilaireFernandes

> Looks like a big sandwich, though.
>
> Will Athne be throwm away? With Polymorph and Morph?

Yes. Morph and Polymorph as well as Athens but Sparta offers a similar
API. So conversion should be easy.
And Bloc opens a lot of possibilities. Bloc is the result of around 4
years of effort understanding the domain
and comparing solutions.

Stef

Stephane Ducasse-3

Re: I18n in pharo

In reply to this post by Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2

Offray

Pavel and me have been working to clean and enhance Spec aspects. We are getting slowly but we will continue.

I want to support menu in a much better way (declarative).

Peter rewrote the Spec Interpreter and I hope that it will finish it, else we will have to do it because the code is "suboptimal".

Stef

On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 12:59 AM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks for the diagram Aliaksei. It helps to understand the Pharo buildings blocks. Where Spec would be located there?

Cheers,

Offray

On 11/11/17 15:56, Aliaksei Syrel wrote:

Hi Hilaire,

About my perception on Pharo, from a distant POV, I see parallel/overlapping/contiguous layers like Morphic, Athens, Sparta, Bloc, Brick, Spec, GT,

Could you, please, explain in a bit more detail why do you think that Sparta, Bloc, Brick and GT are overlapping layers?

In attachment you can find a layered architecture diagram that explains how those technologies are stacked from our point of view :)

Cheers,
Alex

On 11 November 2017 at 21:48, stephan <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 11-11-17 21:18, H. Hirzel wrote:

On 11/11/17, stephan <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 10-11-17 12:23, Cédrick Béler wrote:

Plus I have the impression Morphic mess is about to be solved.

There is still an awful lot of essential complexity in beautiful
graphics and typography that is not going away. Microsoft Word still
cannot layout a paragraph of text after 34 years of development

Can you point to an example of this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtypography

Stephan

Stephane Ducasse-3

Re: I18n in pharo

In reply to this post by HilaireFernandes

Hilaire

Bloc, Brick are not in Pharo yet. So either you want to build on top
of Bloc and you use Bloc or not.
Easy.
Right now in Pharo we have
- plain Morphic (with Polymorph but this is the same)
- Spec to build user interface independent of the underlying layer
(Morphic for now)
- Glamour to build browser/navigation

Now if you need vector graphics: you use Athens in Pharo.
In the future we will have Sparta which is better adapted for Bloc
(local coordinates over global coordinates) but this is the same kind
of API.

So this is not complex.
The decision tree is

Using plain Pharo or not => Morphic or Bloc

Stef

On Sat, Nov 11, 2017 at 9:29 PM, Hilaire <[hidden email]> wrote:

> P6 is definitely a better IDE compare to previous version, and for coming
> Calypso looks fantastic, but P6 is a worst vehicle for a desktop
> application. There is much more code included and you are on your on to
> shrink/clean it to deploy your desktop application to make it looks and
> behave user friendly. May be for a specialized audience it could be just
> fine to deploy as is.
>
> About my perception on Pharo, from a distant POV, I see
> parallel/overlapping/contiguous layers like Morphic, Athens, Sparta, Bloc,
> Brick, Spec, GT, Polymorph all this looks confusing for me and I really
> don't know or understand where to put my eggs.
>
> When I took a look at Pharo keyboard shortcut, it seems to be -- without
> been sure 100% -- there are two different implementations. One from GT and
> another one, probably a legacy one. How can it happen? Then you wonder about
> other part of the system. It makes fells like changes/implementations are
> not coherent, and you don't really fell the environment as coherent or
> trustful.
>
> May be the twist is ontological, Pharo (and Squeak) taking too much
> responsibilities and not delegating enough to the host environment: GUI,
> Freetype, Canvas. The energy required is then out of reach or the needed
> coherence in teams works too complex. Don't know, just blind guesses, I will
> now shut up.
>
>
> Le 10/11/2017 à 12:23, Cédrick Béler a écrit :
>>
>> But I have the opposite impression (of course I don’t have to maintain a
>> big project like yours - I wouldn’t say you’re the hobby user:) ). But I
>> really find P6 more consistent than what I used to try in the past (last
>> squeaks up to 3.9 and firsts pharo).
>
>
> --
> Dr. Geo
> http://drgeo.eu
>
>
>

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