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Re: Where do we go now ?
 
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Hi,
On this matter, when I named my project, "Grafoscopio" I thought in something evocative and unique, because of the Spanish words "grafo" (graph) and grafía[1][2] (graphy, related with writing like in "ortografía" "orthography". After naming it I discover there was a old device related with writing and visualization, also called Grafoscopio[3][4], but I got good search rankings because of the uniqueness of the word[5][6]. Being my first project and lacking any programming style, the "Smalltalk with Style" book didn't make any sense at that time, but now, with more experience, I wonder, from time to time, how I could/should (re)name the software and its classes. [1] http://www.wordreference.com/definicion/graf%c3%ada [2] http://www.wordreference.com/es/en/translation.asp?spen=graf%C3%ADa [3] https://www.museodelprado.es/actualidad/multimedia/el-grafoscopio/722c13b2-8f3c-42a0-a1ab-1374bbca9d5f [4] https://www.museodelprado.es/en/whats-on/exhibition/the-graphoscope/81bfb972-aade-4c24-93b2-dbd7e26e5e4a [5] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=grafoscopio&t=ffsb&atb=v76-7&ia=web [6] https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=grafoscopio Cheers, Offray On 13/04/18 09:01, Esteban A. Maringolo wrote: > On 13/04/2018 10:41, [hidden email] wrote: >> A somewhat unique name makes it easier to google for it (like Roassal >> Pharo, or DeepTraverser Pharo, or Zinc Pharo). >> These will give us hits that are relevant. >> >> Try System Browser, Inspector... >> >> And Apple has worked with NSObject and stuff like that without too much >> trouble (at a much larger scale for whatever XyzKit they released). >> Ah, yes, they used the "Kit" suffix. Maybe can we have something like >> that with Pharo. Like SystemBrowserKit ( nah, too Appleish. > > But I prefer these names: > * Calypso System Browser > * Calypso Debugger > * Iceberg Source Control Management > * Zinc HTTP Client > * Zinc HTTP Server > * Fuel Serialization > * Glamorous Spotter [*] > * etc. > > [*] I particularly dislike "Glamorous" adjective. > > In the case of wrapper for libraries I'm hesitant to decide whether to > indicate pharo name in it or not. > I mean stuff like a NaCl wrapper calling it "NaCl-Pharo" instead of > calling "Salty". > > >> Let's try SystemBrowserMeccano (longish), or SystemBrowserPack (too >> bland), or SystemBrowserGear (why not), SystemBrowserRig (this one >> sounds cool actually)). > Fortunately in the past the lack of namespaces caused the use of > prefixes instead of suffixes. > > With time prefixes become invisible. > > A suffix, instead, will get into all your names, bothering with other > existing suffixes like `Component`, `Model`, `Collection`, and so on. > > > > > > > |
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> On this matter, when I named my project, "Grafoscopio" I thought in > something evocative and unique, because of the Spanish words "grafo" > (graph) and grafía[1][2] (graphy, related with writing like in > "ortografía" "orthography". After naming it I discover there was a old > device related with writing and visualization, also called > Grafoscopio[3][4], but I got good search rankings because of the > uniqueness of the word[5][6]. Obviously and well done! I like when developers are talking about names: They use a mac and not a computer, they were nike, lewis and not shoes and pants.... May be we should rename Pharo: programming language. And Voyage: Layer And Athens, Cairo: Canvas And git: versioning system Hibernate? JavaFX?, Graddle?, Travis?, Bintray? Do you want more Docker? So guys can we focus our energy on positive things. Stef > > Being my first project and lacking any programming style, the "Smalltalk > with Style" book didn't make any sense at that time, but now, with more > experience, I wonder, from time to time, how I could/should (re)name the > software and its classes. > > [1] http://www.wordreference.com/definicion/graf%c3%ada > [2] http://www.wordreference.com/es/en/translation.asp?spen=graf%C3%ADa > [3] > https://www.museodelprado.es/actualidad/multimedia/el-grafoscopio/722c13b2-8f3c-42a0-a1ab-1374bbca9d5f > [4] > https://www.museodelprado.es/en/whats-on/exhibition/the-graphoscope/81bfb972-aade-4c24-93b2-dbd7e26e5e4a > [5] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=grafoscopio&t=ffsb&atb=v76-7&ia=web > [6] https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=grafoscopio > > Cheers, > > Offray > > On 13/04/18 09:01, Esteban A. Maringolo wrote: >> On 13/04/2018 10:41, [hidden email] wrote: >>> A somewhat unique name makes it easier to google for it (like Roassal >>> Pharo, or DeepTraverser Pharo, or Zinc Pharo). >>> These will give us hits that are relevant. >>> >>> Try System Browser, Inspector... >>> >>> And Apple has worked with NSObject and stuff like that without too much >>> trouble (at a much larger scale for whatever XyzKit they released). >>> Ah, yes, they used the "Kit" suffix. Maybe can we have something like >>> that with Pharo. Like SystemBrowserKit ( nah, too Appleish. >> >> But I prefer these names: >> * Calypso System Browser >> * Calypso Debugger >> * Iceberg Source Control Management >> * Zinc HTTP Client >> * Zinc HTTP Server >> * Fuel Serialization >> * Glamorous Spotter [*] >> * etc. >> >> [*] I particularly dislike "Glamorous" adjective. >> >> In the case of wrapper for libraries I'm hesitant to decide whether to >> indicate pharo name in it or not. >> I mean stuff like a NaCl wrapper calling it "NaCl-Pharo" instead of >> calling "Salty". >> >> >>> Let's try SystemBrowserMeccano (longish), or SystemBrowserPack (too >>> bland), or SystemBrowserGear (why not), SystemBrowserRig (this one >>> sounds cool actually)). >> Fortunately in the past the lack of namespaces caused the use of >> prefixes instead of suffixes. >> >> With time prefixes become invisible. >> >> A suffix, instead, will get into all your names, bothering with other >> existing suffixes like `Component`, `Model`, `Collection`, and so on. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > |
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Administrator
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Stephane Ducasse-3 wrote
> I like when developers are talking about names: > They use a mac and not a computer, they were nike, lewis and not shoes > and pants.... > So guys can we focus our energy on positive things. IHMO this is certainly a positive subject because it highlights the as-yet-to-be-resolved tension regarding understandability of the system between having a unique name (good for googling, distinguishing between versions) and a name that reveals what the project does/is for. What is the plan to resolve this because it is a real problem? Nike and Levis are designed to stand on their own in front of the consumer market. Is this true of Nautilus, Calypso, or Epicea? A more relevant example of products that are geared to be presented to consumers as /part of/ another more-uniquely-named product come to mind: OS release codenames: - Mac - OS X 10.11: El Capitan and macOS 10.12: Sierra. Note that they didn't just invent a random-seeming fabricated name and tell people to get over it, they also provide a number which situates it in its domain. - Interestingly Windows has moved back to boring release numbers and has dropped the fantasy names Possible solutions: - Make project tags /the primary view for new users when searching the system. There is a lot of talk about students and having to explain confusing things to them. Would it not be more straightforward to look for a "Class Browser" or "SCM" category?! - If projects are designed just-for-pharo, maybe borrow another trick from OS X - have a codename for development (like Fuji for Sierra) and then change it to something more generic on release, like Browser3, although now that we seem to be keeping tools in their own project repos, that might be problematic I summary, IMHO it is important to provide both: - A clear, searchable, pragmatic way to navigate/understand the system - As well as the unique, google-able, but usually undescriptive way we have now ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
Cheers,
Sean |
Re: Where do we go now ?
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I concur with Sean's comments. The problem is not using names : the problem is for new users. A very quick look at what's in Pharo 7 shows the following names : Iceberg, Ombu, Calypso, Flashback, Nautilus, Renraku, Zodiac, Shift, Zinc, Hermes, Beacon, Cargo, Hermes, Opal, Shoreline, Epicea, Balloon, BlueInk, Commander, Fuel, Glamorous, Glamour, Gofer, Hiedra, Metacello, Moose, Ring, Rubric, Shout, Spec, etc... How many Pharo *users* (not regular contributors!) know what those tools/frameworks/packages do ??? Make the test and tell us how many out of 30 names you were able to identify correctly ! Unless we *clearly* publicize/describe what those names are, there's no way in a thousand years you could tell that BlueInk is not a package dealing with fonts (that was my first guess) ! Newcomers and (developers in general) expect a few things. For instance, there's a gazillion UI frameworks out there and, most of the time, the name used for them is one of a famous painter. VisualWorks had Chagall for instance. Or you'd expect some kind of hint from the name, e.g. XStreams, ScriptManager, RefactoringBrowser. Or somethings as simple as Regex, the regex package from Bykov. Or Announcements from the same guy. Or names that reveals something from an etymology standpoint, e.g. TelePharo. The simple fact that someone had to create a file to describe all those names/projects/framework on GitHub tells us a lot (https://github.com/AdamSadovsky/pharo-family/blob/master/catalog.txt) ! Unless we make it *EXTRA* clear and easily searchable and obvious what those names represent, it's just more confusion for the newcomer. Do you know what Celery is? Probably not! But if I ask you the same question for RabbitMQ, ActiveMQ, MQSeries, StormMQ, SnakeMQ, IronMQ, ZeroMQ, MQTT and MSMQ, you probably figured out it's related to message queues, right? Well, Celery is also related to message queues... See? There's nothing worse or more confusing than a bad/weird/unrelated name. For example, the biggest company in Canada is called "Canadian Tire". If you think you're gonna end up in a place specialized in tires, you're off for a big surprise !!!! On the other end of the spectrum, you have something like iTunes. Everybody knows iTunes. And I guess, even if you didn't know, you can kinda easily guess it's related to music. Your grandma might not exactly remember the name but she'll remember "Was it xTunes? zTunes? yTunes? It was something 'tunes', to music" ! And comparing other "names" with Pharo names makes no sense. Nike, Hibernate, Jenkins, Docker and Oracle cannot be compared to Epicea, BlueInk, Flashback and Opal. They just don't have the same visibility and public exposure. That is hopefully a problem that will vanish as Pharo gets more and more attention and users and gets known more and more. But in the meantime, those names merely help us differentiate implementations of solutions, for us the *regulars*. Was it really that hard to replace the old workspace with Workspace2 or WhateverWorkspace ? Or even better : get rid of the old Workspace and replace it with Playground while retaining the name "Workspace" ??? Did we really need to call it Playground and confuse every new Smalltalker out there that has seen the term "Workspace" for Dolphin, Smalltalk/X, VisualAge, VisualWorks, ObjectStudio, GNU Smalltalk, Amber, PharoJS, Smalltalk MT and every other Smalltalk around *EXCEPT* Pharo? Why are we trying to complicate things when we could just make it soooooooooooooo simple? Let's make it easy for **newcomers** to get their way around and know what the named tools/frameworks do. Get rid of duplicate tools (do we need more than one kind of Inspector? Do we need 2 compilers? Do we need 8 Delay schedulers? Do we need 2 system browsers? Do we need the duo Workspace/Playground) ? Make these extra tools available somewhere it can be loaded from if a user *really* wants them in their image, but let's keep those OUT of the image! ----------------- Benoît St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Twitter: @BenLeChialeux Pinterest: benoitstjean Instagram: Chef_Benito IRC: lamneth Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein)
On Friday, April 20, 2018, 10:09:13 a.m. EDT, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
Stephane Ducasse-3 wrote > I like when developers are talking about names: > They use a mac and not a computer, they were nike, lewis and not shoes > and pants.... > So guys can we focus our energy on positive things. IHMO this is certainly a positive subject because it highlights the as-yet-to-be-resolved tension regarding understandability of the system between having a unique name (good for googling, distinguishing between versions) and a name that reveals what the project does/is for. What is the plan to resolve this because it is a real problem? Nike and Levis are designed to stand on their own in front of the consumer market. Is this true of Nautilus, Calypso, or Epicea? A more relevant example of products that are geared to be presented to consumers as /part of/ another more-uniquely-named product come to mind: OS release codenames: - Mac - OS X 10.11: El Capitan and macOS 10.12: Sierra. Note that they didn't just invent a random-seeming fabricated name and tell people to get over it, they also provide a number which situates it in its domain. - Interestingly Windows has moved back to boring release numbers and has dropped the fantasy names Possible solutions: - Make project tags /the primary view for new users when searching the system. There is a lot of talk about students and having to explain confusing things to them. Would it not be more straightforward to look for a "Class Browser" or "SCM" category?! - If projects are designed just-for-pharo, maybe borrow another trick from OS X - have a codename for development (like Fuji for Sierra) and then change it to something more generic on release, like Browser3, although now that we seem to be keeping tools in their own project repos, that might be problematic I summary, IMHO it is important to provide both: - A clear, searchable, pragmatic way to navigate/understand the system - As well as the unique, google-able, but usually undescriptive way we have now ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html |
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That would definitely help if Pharo shed some of its elitism with fancy names. Then it would have much more appeal for the masses (and definitely increase popularity of Smalltalk) but it is the intent of the community, that's the question. On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris
On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 07:08:29AM -0700, Sean P. DeNigris wrote:
> Stephane Ducasse-3 wrote > > I like when developers are talking about names: > > They use a mac and not a computer, they were nike, lewis and not shoes > > and pants.... > > So guys can we focus our energy on positive things. > > IHMO this is certainly a positive subject because it highlights the > as-yet-to-be-resolved tension regarding understandability of the system > between having a unique name (good for googling, distinguishing between > versions) and a name that reveals what the project does/is for. What is the > plan to resolve this because it is a real problem? > > Nike and Levis are designed to stand on their own in front of the consumer > market. Is this true of Nautilus, Calypso, or Epicea? Sean, Thank you for this clarification! I read Stef's message this morning and I honestly thought that my name ("lewis") might have something to do with pants. That probably would not be a good thing. But now I see that we are talking about "levis" so I feel much better now :-) Dave (Lewis, not Levis) |
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How a project is named is a choice of the author. Nobody gets to demand how someone should name their projects. Now how project is actually named is not a issue if it is properly handled on pharo side, which in some places is, in some places isn't. For instance, there's a gazillion UI frameworks out there and, most of the time, the name used for them is one of a famous painter. We have Magritte, which is a meta-data description framework, not UI framework. :) How many Pharo *users* (not regular contributors!) know what those tools/frameworks/packages do ??? Probably not many, because they never encounter them, nor care about whether they exist or not. A very quick look at what's in Pharo 7 shows the following names : Iceberg, Ombu, Calypso, Flashback, Nautilus, Renraku, Zodiac, Shift, Zinc, Hermes, Beacon, Cargo, Hermes, Opal, Shoreline, Epicea, Balloon, BlueInk, Commander, Fuel, Glamorous, Glamour, Gofer, Hiedra, Metacello, Moose, Ring, Rubric, Shout, Spec, etc... Calypso + Nautilus: as a user you don't get to encounter the names, there's only "System Browser" Did you know that there are other code browsers you can install? (e.g. Code Panels, Alt Browser, ...) Iceberg: as someone pointed out, this would be nice to have a "(Git) Versionner" or whatever entry instead Metacello: npm => "Package manager 1", pip => "Package manager 2", ... Ombu/Epicea: you access it via "Code Changes", names are hidden from the user Flashback, Renraku, Hermes, Opal, Shoreline, BlueInk, Hiedra, Ring, Rubric, Shout, Glamorous, Glamour: not something a regular user ever encounters directly, and if they need to, the unique name helps a lot in finding information/docs about it Moose: are you serious? should Pharo be called "Programming Language 28301" too?
Commander: Commander is a library to implement commands. You literally cannot have a more descriptive name and yet you still complain. Spec: ... maybe we can rename * Morphic "UI 1" * Baloon "UI -1" * Spec "UI 2" * Rubric "UI 3" * Tx "UI A" * Bloc "UI א" * Athens "UI
ε" * Cairo "UI Щ" * Sparta "UI さ" and then try to find any information about anything. Was it really that hard to replace the old workspace with Workspace2 or WhateverWorkspace ? Or even better : get rid of the old Workspace and replace it with Playground while retaining the name "Workspace" ??? Well I could claim that "Workspace" is a very confusing name, because it is not actually workspace, just a trivial Text Box. If anything, Playground is a much more fitting name. Or somethings as simple as Regex, the regex package from Bykov. Which variant of regular expressions though? Unless we *clearly* publicize/describe what those names are, there's no way in a thousand years you could tell that BlueInk is not a package dealing with fonts (that was my first guess) ! I fully agree with this, and as I've mentioned (here, or maybe in another thread), this has improved greatly with move to GitHub, as people finally started to care about describing their projects. But the transition takes time. Btw BlueInk is a "pretty printer", so the name isn't really misleading once you know what it is. But being "clever" with names is sure way to get it misinterpreted. (E.g. "grafoscopio" which has nothing to do with graphs or visualizations, as it is text/nodes/code snippets organization tool.) (For the record I tend to name projects with the most boring name I can come up with (tonel-migration, IconFactory, file-dialog, xml-magritte-generator, uml-xmi, ...), but it only works if there's only one such thing... if there are competing projects, than sharing the name doesn't help anyone.) Peter On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 1:34 AM, David T. Lewis <[hidden email]> wrote: On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 07:08:29AM -0700, Sean P. DeNigris wrote: |
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What I find sad is that people spent hours talking instead of doing.
This is why Smalltalk is for them. Personally I prefer Pharo. Let me migrate another Seaside chapter so that people can complain after all. Stef On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 11:48 AM, Peter Uhnák <[hidden email]> wrote: > How a project is named is a choice of the author. Nobody gets to demand how > someone should name their projects. > > Now how project is actually named is not a issue if it is properly handled > on pharo side, which in some places is, in some places isn't. > >> For instance, there's a gazillion UI frameworks out there and, most of the >> time, the name used for them is one of a famous painter. > > > We have Magritte, which is a meta-data description framework, not UI > framework. :) > >> How many Pharo *users* (not regular contributors!) know what those >> tools/frameworks/packages do ??? > > > Probably not many, because they never encounter them, nor care about whether > they exist or not. > >> A very quick look at what's in Pharo 7 shows the following names : >> Iceberg, Ombu, Calypso, Flashback, Nautilus, Renraku, Zodiac, Shift, Zinc, >> Hermes, Beacon, Cargo, Hermes, Opal, Shoreline, Epicea, Balloon, BlueInk, >> Commander, Fuel, Glamorous, Glamour, Gofer, Hiedra, Metacello, Moose, Ring, >> Rubric, Shout, Spec, etc... > > > Calypso + Nautilus: as a user you don't get to encounter the names, there's > only "System Browser" > Did you know that there are other code browsers you can install? (e.g. Code > Panels, Alt Browser, ...) > > Iceberg: as someone pointed out, this would be nice to have a "(Git) > Versionner" or whatever entry instead > > Metacello: npm => "Package manager 1", pip => "Package manager 2", ... > > Ombu/Epicea: you access it via "Code Changes", names are hidden from the > user > > Flashback, Renraku, Hermes, Opal, Shoreline, BlueInk, Hiedra, Ring, Rubric, > Shout, Glamorous, Glamour: not something a regular user ever encounters > directly, and if they need to, the unique name helps a lot in finding > information/docs about it > > Moose: are you serious? should Pharo be called "Programming Language 28301" > too? > > Commander: Commander is a library to implement commands. You literally > cannot have a more descriptive name and yet you still complain. > > Spec: ... maybe we can rename > * Morphic "UI 1" > * Baloon "UI -1" > * Spec "UI 2" > * Rubric "UI 3" > * Tx "UI A" > * Bloc "UI א" > * Athens "UI ε" > * Cairo "UI Щ" > * Sparta "UI さ" > > and then try to find any information about anything. > >> Was it really that hard to replace the old workspace with Workspace2 or >> WhateverWorkspace ? Or even better : get rid of the old Workspace and >> replace it with Playground while retaining the name "Workspace" ??? > > > Well I could claim that "Workspace" is a very confusing name, because it is > not actually workspace, just a trivial Text Box. If anything, Playground is > a much more fitting name. > >> Or somethings as simple as Regex, the regex package from Bykov. > > > Which variant of regular expressions though? > >> Unless we *clearly* publicize/describe what those names are, there's no >> way in a thousand years you could tell that BlueInk is not a package dealing >> with fonts (that was my first guess) ! > > > I fully agree with this, and as I've mentioned (here, or maybe in another > thread), this has improved greatly with move to GitHub, as people finally > started to care about describing their projects. But the transition takes > time. Btw BlueInk is a "pretty printer", so the name isn't really misleading > once you know what it is. But being "clever" with names is sure way to get > it misinterpreted. (E.g. "grafoscopio" which has nothing to do with graphs > or visualizations, as it is text/nodes/code snippets organization tool.) > > (For the record I tend to name projects with the most boring name I can come > up with (tonel-migration, IconFactory, file-dialog, xml-magritte-generator, > uml-xmi, ...), but it only works if there's only one such thing... if there > are competing projects, than sharing the name doesn't help anyone.) > > Peter > > On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 1:34 AM, David T. Lewis <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 07:08:29AM -0700, Sean P. DeNigris wrote: >> > Stephane Ducasse-3 wrote >> > > I like when developers are talking about names: >> > > They use a mac and not a computer, they were nike, lewis and not shoes >> > > and pants.... >> > > So guys can we focus our energy on positive things. >> > >> > IHMO this is certainly a positive subject because it highlights the >> > as-yet-to-be-resolved tension regarding understandability of the system >> > between having a unique name (good for googling, distinguishing between >> > versions) and a name that reveals what the project does/is for. What is >> > the >> > plan to resolve this because it is a real problem? >> > >> > Nike and Levis are designed to stand on their own in front of the >> > consumer >> > market. Is this true of Nautilus, Calypso, or Epicea? >> >> Sean, >> >> Thank you for this clarification! I read Stef's message this morning >> and I honestly thought that my name ("lewis") might have something to >> do with pants. That probably would not be a good thing. But now I see >> that we are talking about "levis" so I feel much better now :-) >> >> Dave (Lewis, not Levis) >> >> > |
Re: Where do we go now ?
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In reply to this post by Stephane Ducasse-3
>What I find sad is that people spent hours talking instead of doing. >This is why Smalltalk is for them. >Personally I prefer Pharo.</byebye> ----------------- Benoît St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Twitter: @BenLeChialeux Pinterest: benoitstjean Instagram: Chef_Benito IRC: lamneth Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) |
Re: Where do we go now ?
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In reply to this post by Stephane Ducasse-3
On 20/04/18 02:14, Stephane Ducasse wrote: >> On this matter, when I named my project, "Grafoscopio" I thought in >> something evocative and unique, because of the Spanish words "grafo" >> (graph) and grafía[1][2] (graphy, related with writing like in >> "ortografía" "orthography". After naming it I discover there was a old >> device related with writing and visualization, also called >> Grafoscopio[3][4], but I got good search rankings because of the >> uniqueness of the word[5][6]. > Obviously and well done! > > I like when developers are talking about names: > They use a mac and not a computer, they were nike, lewis and not shoes > and pants.... > > May be we should rename Pharo: programming language. > And Voyage: Layer > And Athens, Cairo: Canvas > > And git: versioning system > > Hibernate? JavaFX?, Graddle?, Travis?, Bintray? > Do you want more > Docker? > > So guys can we focus our energy on positive things. > > Stef > > Thanks Stephan. I think most of the community is working on positive thinks (like you). Naming preferences and conventions shouldn't be a place for holy wars. And in fact I would like to learn more about Smalltalk Style, for example, how to use prefixes in classes without loosing the "branding" behind names and tools. Cheers, Offray |
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