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Ben Coman

Re: Where do we go now ?

On 14 April 2018 at 01:52, Richard Sargent <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 1:11 PM, Hilaire <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sometime Pharo frustrate me a lot, I felt it too in the message from Benoit, in the other hand its community is very kind and always helpful. So it is not about blaming people.

In my opinion, there are too much things pushed at the same time in Pharo. You can't push too much things into the box, then when people complain about it to be overfull and bugged request them to fix it, I don't think it can work that way, at this scale of changes. In the other, this is not really what happen here, I very likely exaggerate this trait but you get the idea.

For example, I developed DrGeo for several years on P3. Why sticking to P3? It gave me the opportunity to fine craft DrGeo to be stable and predictable in the way it behaves to its end users, and a lot of releases occurred. When I started to look at porting to newer image last June, I realized DrGeo will become unstable and oversized, so can of turning from A+ grade to a D- grade, just by the magic of porting it. My plan was to port it during the summer to get it ready end of August to deploy in local schools, it does not happen. And I can write it: it is s-u-p-e-r f-r-u-s-t-r-a-t-i-n-g. Is it normal when porting code? I don't know, I am a casual developer, but it makes developing well crafted and reliable Pharo application a bit expensive to my taste. To such a scale that I started to evaluate alternative to Pharo as the underneath system, idea I finally gave up after several weeks of evaluations. All in all I still have this felling Pharo is not developer friendly, I fell DrGeo is not secure there. See when porting to newer image, I end up using P7-32bits alpha on Linux because it was the most comfortable situation comparing to P5/P6/P6.1, is it not strange?

In the other hand this struggle occurs at image change. Ok, may be it is a pattern specific to Smalltalk. Is it the case with commercial Smalltalk vendors?

Hi Hilaire,

Thanks for articulating this. I've been mostly watching Pharo rather than using it, so I haven't been affected by the changes between versions. With respect to commercial products versus Pharo at the present time, I think we have different driving forces shaping things.

In my opinion, VA Smalltalk has been the one most strongly driven by the importance of backward compatibility and ease of migration to a new version. VisualWorks has been pretty good about providing a path forward with minimal pain, although the more major version numbers difference, the harder it is to transition. Likewise, GemStone/S has a strong emphasis on keeping our customers' existing applications running with minimal changes.

That being said, I have no doubt that the earliest versions of all these products had substantial incompatibilities between versions. I am also pretty sure there is a threshold beyond which the adoption of Pharo in business applications will compel Pharo development to facilitate migration to newer versions and to better maintain API compatibility. [And that may be simply because, as more businesses rely on Pharo, they will be financially supporting its development.]

You would expect this be a natural progression as more companies supporting such priorities join the consortium.

The corollary is that its better the take greater leaps earlier when there is a greater percentage of Innovators and Early Adopters

who are willing to ride some rough edges for the benefit they gain *now*.

When the Majority arrive, such changes would be more disruptive to perception of Pharo i.e. more opinons, less care.

cheers -ben

A second consideration is the size of the product teams (measured in full-time staffing). I think the commercial products had a much larger staffing in their early days than Pharo has even now. And I think the consequence of that is that the changes between v1 and v2 or between v2 and v3 of the commercial products may have been comparable to the differences between Pharo v(n) and v(n+3).

Richard

Hilaire

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu

Thierry Goubier

Re: Where do we go now ?

In reply to this post by HilaireFernandes

Le sam. 14 avr. 2018 10:46, Hilaire <[hidden email]> a écrit :

Le 13/04/2018 à 19:49, Stephane Ducasse a écrit :
> We know where we go (we have a roadmap) and this is always the same
> and we are getting there. Tell me one smalltalk that is bootstrapped.
I don't see we are there yet. At least from my humble point of view the
bootstrap still looks like WIP.

However, for pragmatic software deployments, working out of the minimal image is a nice improvement. The best of both world: full featured when needed, concise when needed.

Thierry

Hilaire

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu

Stephane Ducasse-3

Re: Where do we go now ?

In reply to this post by HilaireFernandes

Hilaire

I will not start to argue. The bootstrap is in production since the
beginning of Pharo 70.
Now building multiple different images from it is another story.

Stef

On Sat, Apr 14, 2018 at 10:45 AM, Hilaire <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Le 13/04/2018 à 19:49, Stephane Ducasse a écrit :
>>
>> We know where we go (we have a roadmap) and this is always the same
>> and we are getting there. Tell me one smalltalk that is bootstrapped.
>
> I don't see we are there yet. At least from my humble point of view the
> bootstrap still looks like WIP.
>
>
> Hilaire
>
> --
> Dr. Geo
> http://drgeo.eu
>
>
>

Ben Coman

Re: Where do we go now ?

In reply to this post by Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list

On 13 April 2018 at 17:49, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users <[hidden email]> wrote:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]>
To: Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>
Cc: Any question about pharo is welcome <[hidden email]>
Bcc:
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 09:49:15 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?
For those interested.

Created the issues 21686, 21693, 21695, 21696.

And more to come...

Thanks for those. I don't much time right to devote, but managed to knock one off.

And I learn't something new. I'd not known there was a setting for screen background.

The other ones seem related to a problem dealing with user home folders containing non-ascii characters.

Currently this seems only to affect a small number of people, but is a show stopper for them,

and the numbers will grow with our hoped for growing popularity.

As a work around, in the PharoLauncher settings can you set the directories like

C:\PharoLauncher\images

C:\PharoLaucnher\vms

and report if that helps.

Note, I bumped into an issue changing that setting myself recently where it tries to migrate

the existing images from the old to the new folder, causing a catch-22 when your trying

to do that to work around other problems. To work around that, I had to scroll

down the debug stack to find where the migration was iterating through the image folders,

and short circuit that with "Return entered value" from the context menu. Any value

will do when the return value is not used. good luck.

@PharoLauncher maintainers, can the change in this setting be made to succeed even if the migration fails.

(I need to run right now)

cheers -ben

Stephane Ducasse-3

Re: Where do we go now ?

Ben

can you open a bug entry.
Now I can tell you that the launcher is one of the most complex
application built in Pharo because
it has to adapt to multiple OS, multiple version of OS, multiple
versions of the images and the VM.
For example we discover that we cannot open certain pharo 30 image
with the pharo 30 vm but
better with a pharo 40 vm.

Stef

On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 6:58 AM, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On 13 April 2018 at 17:49, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]>
>> To: Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: Any question about pharo is welcome <[hidden email]>
>> Bcc:
>> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 09:49:15 +0000 (UTC)
>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?
>> For those interested.
>>
>> Created the issues 21686, 21693, 21695, 21696.
>>
>> And more to come...
>
>
> Thanks for those. I don't much time right to devote, but managed to knock
> one off.
> And I learn't something new. I'd not known there was a setting for screen
> background.
>
> The other ones seem related to a problem dealing with user home folders
> containing non-ascii characters.
> Currently this seems only to affect a small number of people, but is a show
> stopper for them,
> and the numbers will grow with our hoped for growing popularity.
>
> As a work around, in the PharoLauncher settings can you set the directories
> like
> C:\PharoLauncher\images
> C:\PharoLaucnher\vms
> and report if that helps.
>
> Note, I bumped into an issue changing that setting myself recently where it
> tries to migrate
> the existing images from the old to the new folder, causing a catch-22 when
> your trying
> to do that to work around other problems. To work around that, I had to
> scroll
> down the debug stack to find where the migration was iterating through the
> image folders,
> and short circuit that with "Return entered value" from the context menu.
> Any value
> will do when the return value is not used. good luck.
>
> @PharoLauncher maintainers, can the change in this setting be made to
> succeed even if the migration fails.
> (I need to run right now)
>
> cheers -ben
>

Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list

Pharo Launcher

In reply to this post by Ben Coman

"To be clear, the problem was heavily influenced by the constraints of an external tool.

Get PharoLauncher installed in the right location and it works like a dream.

Did you try the proof-of-concept installer I posted previously to the list...

http://www.mediafire.com/file/3g579bmzqspt8e1/BCPharoLauncher.msi

Downloaded it. Installed it. Started it. Selected an image. Bam. The app vanished.

Also tried on a brand-new-and-fresh-Windows-10-machine-with-nothing-previously-installed and same thing.

The app doesn't even show in the task manager.

And no error file was created.

If that helps, both machines have Windows in French installed.

-----------------
Benoît St-Jean
Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
Twitter: @BenLeChialeux
Pinterest: benoitstjean
Instagram: Chef_Benito
IRC: lamneth
Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com
"A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein)

Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list

Re: Where do we go now ?

In reply to this post by aglynn42

OS/2 ? What??? Is it free/openSource? Man! Where can I get that!!! Good memories!!!!

On Friday, April 13, 2018, 6:57:16 a.m. EDT, <[hidden email]> wrote:

Btw, in my fascination with messing around, the 32 bit version of Pharo 7 for Windows runs better on OS/2 v.5 (yes, it still exists, it was released last June). Probably because its Win32 subsystem is more compatible with Win32 apps than Windows 10.

Andrew

From: Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2018 5:26 AM
To: Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>
Cc: Any question about pharo is welcome <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

BTW, why put an .exe installer for Windows available when it crashes right from the start? It just doesn't work at all. Period. For everyone.

And I thought looking for senders of a method was something we mastered a long time ago, like starting with Smalltalk-76. Am I supposed to assume that everything, even basic functionalities, are all broken because it's labeled "alpha" ?

On Friday, April 13, 2018, 5:20:28 a.m. EDT, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 13 Apr 2018, at 11:07, Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm on Windows 10, using Pharo 7.0 alpha 32 bit.

and btw… which part of ALPHA you do not get?

Esteban

Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list

Re: Where do we go now ?

In reply to this post by Denis Kudriashov

"At some point we should force rule "All packages have comments". And indication with icon like we do for classes."

HilaireFernandes

Re: Pharo Launcher

In reply to this post by Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list

Can you make a search for your PharoDebug.log, because I can see, at
least on P7 and Linux, this file is not always located nearby the image
but at the user root directory.

Hilaire

Le 15/04/2018 à 20:52, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users a écrit :

> Downloaded it. Installed it. Started it. Selected an image. Bam.
> The app vanished.
>
> Also tried on a
> brand-new-and-fresh-Windows-10-machine-with-nothing-previously-installed
> and same thing.
>
> The app doesn't even show in the task manager.
>
> And no error file was created.
>

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu

http://drgeo.eu

Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list

Re: Where do we go now ?

In reply to this post by aglynn42

"I find NPM as obscure as Pharo, honestly, and VA Smalltalk is worse (wth does abt or sst stand for?). Grunt, Gulp, etc., how do the names relate to what they do?
"

iirc, Abt was for "Application Builder Toolkit", Cw was for "Common Widgets", "Cfs was for "Common File System", Sst was for "Server Smalltalk", etc. There used to be a list of VAST prefixes on the IBM website but I couldn't find it...

itlists@schrievkrom.de

Re: Pharo Launcher

In reply to this post by Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list

After a long time I wanted to have a look at the current Pharo situation.

I just downloaded the Linux 64bit version of Pharo from the web site:

-> I opened "pharo" (via a double click on the pharo application) and
got a list of possible templates I could load.

-> I selected Pharo 6.1 template, created an image and wanted to start
that image - the initial application disappeared - but nothing happened
after that.

If I start the initial pharo app from a shell by hand and I want to
start the selected image it seems to work.

My system: Linux Mint 18.1, 64 bit

--
Marten Feldtmann

Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list

Re: Pharo Launcher

In reply to this post by HilaireFernandes

I looked for it : isn't there.

On Sunday, April 15, 2018, 3:01:30 p.m. EDT, Hilaire <[hidden email]> wrote:

Can you make a search for your PharoDebug.log, because I can see, at
least on P7 and Linux, this file is not always located nearby the image
but at the user root directory.

Hilaire

Le 15/04/2018 à 20:52, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users a écrit :

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu

Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list

Re: Where do we go now ?

In reply to this post by Ben Coman

"As a work around, in the PharoLauncher settings can you set the directories like

C:\PharoLauncher\images

C:\PharoLaucnher\vms

and report if that helps.

Or even better, let the user decide!

On Sunday, April 15, 2018, 12:58:44 a.m. EDT, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 13 April 2018 at 17:49, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users <[hidden email]> wrote:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]>
To: Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>
Cc: Any question about pharo is welcome <[hidden email]>
Bcc:
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 09:49:15 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?
For those interested.

Created the issues 21686, 21693, 21695, 21696.

And more to come...

Thanks for those. I don't much time right to devote, but managed to knock one off.

And I learn't something new. I'd not known there was a setting for screen background.

The other ones seem related to a problem dealing with user home folders containing non-ascii characters.

Currently this seems only to affect a small number of people, but is a show stopper for them,

and the numbers will grow with our hoped for growing popularity.

As a work around, in the PharoLauncher settings can you set the directories like

C:\PharoLauncher\images

C:\PharoLaucnher\vms

and report if that helps.

Note, I bumped into an issue changing that setting myself recently where it tries to migrate

the existing images from the old to the new folder, causing a catch-22 when your trying

to do that to work around other problems. To work around that, I had to scroll

down the debug stack to find where the migration was iterating through the image folders,

and short circuit that with "Return entered value" from the context menu. Any value

will do when the return value is not used. good luck.

@PharoLauncher maintainers, can the change in this setting be made to succeed even if the migration fails.

(I need to run right now)

cheers -ben

Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list

Re: Pharo Launcher

In reply to this post by itlists@schrievkrom.de

Hey Marten,

I have the same system and I encountered similar issues.

Search your folders of debug logs. Sometimes the launcher expects the
image an a different path, or a sources file was unzipped into the wrong
folder, or the extracted files of vms or images have the wrong read
write access.

I will check my system for changes that I might have done to the system
and sent them to you.
In general it should work on Linux Mint. I use it regularly.

Sebastian

Am 15.04.2018 um 12:23 schrieb Marten Feldtmann:

> After a long time I wanted to have a look at the current Pharo situation.
>
> I just downloaded the Linux 64bit version of Pharo from the web site:
>
> -> I opened "pharo" (via a double click on the pharo application) and
> got a list of possible templates I could load.
>
> -> I selected Pharo 6.1 template, created an image and wanted to start
> that image - the initial application disappeared - but nothing happened
> after that.
>
> If I start the initial pharo app from a shell by hand and I want to
> start the selected image it seems to work.
>
> My system: Linux Mint 18.1, 64 bit
>
>
>
>

CyrilFerlicot

Re: Where do we go now ?

In reply to this post by Denis Kudriashov

Le 13/04/2018 à 14:27, Denis Kudriashov a écrit :
> At some point we should force rule "All packages have comments". And
> indication with icon like we do for classes.
> With Calypso the package comment is always available. So it would be
> easy to find description.
>
>

I would like to force this rule too but it'll need some work because
some packages are not only loaded in Pharo (as Alien) and
PackageManifest is not present in Squeak image.

--
Cyril Ferlicot
https://ferlicot.fr

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Ben Coman

Re: Pharo Launcher

In reply to this post by Ben Coman

On 16 April 2018 at 02:52, Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]> wrote:

"To be clear, the problem was heavily influenced by the constraints of an external tool.
Get PharoLauncher installed in the right location and it works like a dream.
Did you try the proof-of-concept installer I posted previously to the list...
http://www.mediafire.com/file/3g579bmzqspt8e1/BCPharoLauncher.msi
"

Downloaded it. Installed it.

What path did you install to?

cheers -ben

Started it. Selected an image. Bam. The app vanished.

Also tried on a brand-new-and-fresh-Windows-10-machine-with-nothing-previously-installed and same thing.

The app doesn't even show in the task manager.

And no error file was created.

If that helps, both machines have Windows in French installed.

Ben Coman

Re: Where do we go now ?

In reply to this post by Ben Coman

On 16 April 2018 at 03:46, Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> "As a work around, in the PharoLauncher settings can you set the directories like
>> C:\PharoLauncher\images
>> C:\PharoLauncher\vms
>> and report if that helps.
>> "

> Or even better, let the user decide!

I don't understand what you mean.

There is a setting that *gives* you the opportunity to decide.

>> and report if that helps.

What was the result of my suggestion provided above?

Also, with the MSI I provided in the other link,

can you try installing under C:\PharoLauncher.

cheers -ben

Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list

Re: Where do we go now ?

"I don't understand what you mean.

There is a setting that *gives* you the opportunity to decide.

I have no clue, I've never been able to actually have PharoLauncher start & work!!!

Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list

Re: Pharo Launcher

In reply to this post by Ben Coman

"What path did you install to?"

The installer put it in:

C:\Users\Benoît St-Jean\AppData\Local\Programs\Pharo\BCPharoLauncher>

philippeback

Re: Pharo Launcher

In reply to this post by HilaireFernandes

Install the bleeding edge thing, it works for me on win 10.

I also noticed that the launcher runs images with VMs that do have a weird management of cursors in the dark themes, it seems that there the masks are not used properly and so, the dark arrow has no white border making it impossible to see.

It was not like that before, so I suspect a VM thing.

Phil

On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 9:00 PM, Hilaire <[hidden email]> wrote:

Can you make a search for your PharoDebug.log, because I can see, at least on P7 and Linux, this file is not always located nearby the image but at the user root directory.

Hilaire

Le 15/04/2018 à 20:52, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users a écrit :

Downloaded it. Installed it. Started it. Selected an image. Bam. The app vanished.

Also tried on a brand-new-and-fresh-Windows-10-machine-with-nothing-previously-installed and same thing.

The app doesn't even show in the task manager.

And no error file was created.

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu

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