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Re: Where do we go now ?

Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list
BTW, why put an .exe installer for Windows available when it crashes right from the start? It just doesn't work at all.  Period.  For everyone.

And I thought looking for senders of a method was something we mastered a long time ago, like starting with Smalltalk-76.  Am I supposed to assume that everything, even basic functionalities, are all broken because it's labeled "alpha" ?


-----------------
Benoît St-Jean
Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
Twitter: @BenLeChialeux
Pinterest: benoitstjean
Instagram: Chef_Benito
IRC: lamneth
Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com
"A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".  (A. Einstein)


On Friday, April 13, 2018, 5:20:28 a.m. EDT, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote:




On 13 Apr 2018, at 11:07, Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm on Windows 10, using Pharo 7.0 alpha 32 bit.


and btw… which part of ALPHA you do not get?

Esteban
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Re: Where do we go now ?

EstebanLM
In reply to this post by EstebanLM
ok, you want to have the last word.
Go ahead. 
You have it.

What you do not have is my attention anymore.

cheers!
Esteban

On 13 Apr 2018, at 11:26, Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]> wrote:

BTW, why put an .exe installer for Windows available when it crashes right from the start? It just doesn't work at all.  Period.  For everyone.

And I thought looking for senders of a method was something we mastered a long time ago, like starting with Smalltalk-76.  Am I supposed to assume that everything, even basic functionalities, are all broken because it's labeled "alpha" ?


-----------------
Benoît St-Jean
Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
Twitter: @BenLeChialeux
Pinterest: benoitstjean
Instagram: Chef_Benito
IRC: lamneth
Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com
"A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".  (A. Einstein)


On Friday, April 13, 2018, 5:20:28 a.m. EDT, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote:




On 13 Apr 2018, at 11:07, Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm on Windows 10, using Pharo 7.0 alpha 32 bit.


and btw… which part of ALPHA you do not get?

Esteban

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Re: Where do we go now ?

Marcus Denker-4
In reply to this post by Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list


On 13 Apr 2018, at 11:26, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users <[hidden email]> wrote:


From: Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?
Date: 13 April 2018 at 11:26:09 CEST
To: Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>
Cc: Any question about pharo is welcome <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]>


BTW, why put an .exe installer for Windows available when it crashes right from the start? It just doesn't work at all.  Period.  For everyone.

And I thought looking for senders of a method was something we mastered a long time ago, like starting with Smalltalk-76.  Am I supposed to assume that everything, even basic functionalities, are all broken because it's labeled "alpha” ?

We have already a issue tracker entry with a description of a fix:


TODO: turn that description into code and make a Pull Request.

Marcus

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Re: Where do we go now ?

CyrilFerlicot
In reply to this post by Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list
On 13/04/2018 11:26, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users wrote:

Do you expect a cleaning of the Kernel without any break during alpha
version?

This version introduce a new message browser, new Traits, more
modularization of the kernel and some cleaning of the Kernel. I see a
lot of reason why it might break during the alpha version.

--
Cyril Ferlicot
https://ferlicot.fr

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Re: Where do we go now ?

Alistair Grant
In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
On 13 April 2018 at 11:04, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>> On 13 Apr 2018, at 08:43, [hidden email] wrote:
>>
>> I consider Pharo 7 as a great piece of kit but unusable for my current work. There are many new things to learn in there. When is too much too much? Also, simplifications are breaking things in unexpected ways (like the #atEnd thing).
>
> Phil,
>
> Nothing fundamental will break with #atEnd.
>
> What you are reading in pharo-dev is a constructive discussion that (for me at least) started with the desire to support one very special kind of stream (stdin in C terms), something 99.99% of Pharo users have never seen, used or heard of.


Completely agree (despite one of my later messages to Sven being
overly grumpy).  I've learnt a lot from this exchange.

Cheers,
Alistair


> Zn streams have worked well and as expected for Pharo versions going back to 3, that won't change.

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Re: Where do we go now ?

Clément Béra
In reply to this post by Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list

"Alpha software can be unstable and could cause crashes or data loss" [1]

Experiencing instability, crashes and data loss in the alpha version of a software, including Pharo alpha, is to be expected and nothing to be surprised about. The support of the Pharo stable version (currently 6.1) has significantly improved in the past year. Many fixes and enhancements were back-ported from Pharo 7 to Pharo 6.1. Based on your comments, it seems that you have issues because you are not using the version of Pharo that fits your needs (i.e. the stable version). 

Checking the Pharo website [2], it seems there are no download links to the alpha version so far because it's not considered stable enough. Where did you get a link to download Pharo 7 alpha ?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle


On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 11:26 AM, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users <[hidden email]> wrote:


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]>
To: Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>
Cc: Any question about pharo is welcome <[hidden email]>
Bcc: 
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 09:26:09 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?
BTW, why put an .exe installer for Windows available when it crashes right from the start? It just doesn't work at all.  Period.  For everyone.

And I thought looking for senders of a method was something we mastered a long time ago, like starting with Smalltalk-76.  Am I supposed to assume that everything, even basic functionalities, are all broken because it's labeled "alpha" ?


-----------------
Benoît St-Jean
Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
Twitter: @BenLeChialeux
Pinterest: benoitstjean
Instagram: Chef_Benito
IRC: lamneth
Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com
"A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".  (A. Einstein)


On Friday, April 13, 2018, 5:20:28 a.m. EDT, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote:




On 13 Apr 2018, at 11:07, Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm on Windows 10, using Pharo 7.0 alpha 32 bit.


and btw… which part of ALPHA you do not get?

Esteban




--
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Re: Where do we go now ?

Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list
In reply to this post by EstebanLM
For those interested.

Created the issues 21686, 21693, 21695, 21696.

And more to come...



-----------------
Benoît St-Jean
Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
Twitter: @BenLeChialeux
Pinterest: benoitstjean
Instagram: Chef_Benito
IRC: lamneth
Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com
"A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".  (A. Einstein)
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Re: Where do we go now ?

Ben Coman
In reply to this post by Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list


On 13 April 2018 at 17:07, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users <[hidden email]> wrote:


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]>
To: Any question about pharo is welcome <[hidden email]>, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>
Cc: 
Bcc: 
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 09:07:16 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?
"You cannot take an alpha version and expect production quality."

I'm on Windows 10, using Pharo 7.0 alpha 32 bit.


Can I at least expect to be able to save code in my local Monticello repository ? It bombs. I just reported a bug!

Can I expect the Windows installer for Pharo Launcher to work on Windows?  It doesn't : it crashes. 

It works fine for me on Windows 10.  
There were some issues that depended on how PharoLauncher was installed.

The installer (NSIS) being used at that time doesn't handle non-Admin installs very well.  
Prior to PharoLauncher being promoted as the main download, I guess people on Windows
using PharoLauncher either ran it as Admin, or worked around it like me - on Windows I 
would just roll my own from a fresh Pharo 6 and the Project Catalog.

To be clear, the problem was heavily influenced by the constraints of an external tool.
Get PharoLauncher installed in the right location and it works like a dream.
Did you try the proof-of-concept installer I posted previously to the list... 

 

Can I expect Pharo Launcher (not installed from the .exe installer) to work on Windows?  It just doesn't. I get all kinds of error related to WindowsStore, bad UTF-8 encoding and other things... (see https://twitter.com/smalltalkdev/status/978973863332798464)

Yes most people can expect it works perfectly on Windows.  But as always it depends.  
There is always the chance something in your environment triggers a bug.
like maybe non-ascii characters in you username/path?

 

Can I expect that when looking for implementors of a method things still work?  I get duplicates (see attached file).

Do you mean only the duplicate "Traited class >> isTrait" in your screenshot?
I just tried this in "Pharo-7.0+alpha.build.762.sha.0e0fe47c5ccef"
by typing "isTrait" into the Playground, selecting it and pressing Ctrl-M,
and I don't get the duplicate.

Which build of Pharo are you using?
 

Can I expect reading input from the console to work on Windows?  It doesn't.

Bit hard to understand your problem from that one-liner.
 

Can I expect to be able to test my stuff on Windows?  That's kinda hard when Windows is always 6 months to 1 year behind VM-wise.
I'm not whining about the effort people put into this project : I'm mostly whining about duplication of effort and code and *very poor* Windows support...

AFAIK, Pharo 6.1 32-bit VM is up to date with the other platforms.
Regarding 64-bit Windows.  Yes it is behind.  The specific companies interested in 64-bit Linux support put money on the table to get it done.
No one has stepped up to do the same for Windows 64-bit, so realistically it lags behind.

btw, lately it gets harder to run 32-bit apps on Linux and OSX, but there is no reason to stop using 32-bits VM on Windows.

 

Can I expect to be able to contribute ?  That is kinda sad but all the cool scripts out there are .sh files.

huh?

 
Just spend 2 weeks working with Pharo on Windows.  You can start with version 5.1 if you want and let me know how it goes...  Brace yourself, I'm telling you, you're off for a wild & unpleasant ride.

Its been a while since I worked with Pharo on Windows, but I've been using it the last few weeks with no problems. Pharo 6.1 and Pharo 7.

cheers -ben
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Re: Where do we go now ?

Joe Shirk
In reply to this post by Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list
I've been a lurk-fan for a long time but this brings up something that distressed me. Richard Eng, Smalltalk Renaissance hero loves to say Smalltalk's grammar/syntax fits on a postcard.

But the vocabulary doesn't. There is nothing English-like about the always expanding bewildering   library namespaces. 

GT what? Oh a newbie might eventually figure out it means Glamorous Toolkit. These are meaningless brands. In this drive to come up with creative names for "just objects" that explain nothing at all, Smalltalk is becoming like Java or PHP hell. 
Just look at those examples through the eyes of a novice. The purity is nowhere to be found.
:(

On Apr 13, 2018 1:56 AM, "Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users" <[hidden email]> wrote:


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Cc: 
Bcc: 
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 05:53:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Where do we go now ?
Hello guys,

Just a quick word to get some things straight because, quite frankly, I really don't know where we're heading.

When Pharo started, the goal was to depart from Squeak and do a *major clean up* of all the code, especially Morphic.  The promise of a new, clean & lean Smalltalk attracted a lot of people.  And then...

I'm looking at the Pharo 7.0 image right now and I just don't get where we're heading.  Every Pharo release gets bigger, and bigger, and bigger.  I don't mind the environment getting bigger if it adds functionalities or new tools but that's not quite the case here. LOTS of stuff is just duplicated.

Do we really need 2 code completion classes (NECController, NOCController) ?  Do we really need 2 system browsers (Nautilus, Calypso)? Do we really need 2 compilers (OpalCompiler, Compiler) ?  Do we really need 8 delay schedulers (DelayMicrosecondScheduler, DelayMillisecondScheduler, DelayNullScheduler, DelayExperimentalSpinScheduler, DelaySpinScheduler, DelayTicklessScheduler, DelayExperimentalCourageousScheduler, DelayExperimentalSemaphoreScheduler) ?  Do we really need 2 inspectors (GTInspector, EyeInspector) ?  Do we really need 2 workspaces (GTPlayground, Workspace) ? Et cetera. Et cetera. Et cetera.  I could go on, and on, and on...

Pharo 5.1 had 5885 classes. Pharo 6.1 had 6481 classes. Pharo 7.0 alpha has 7612 classes.  Can you see a trend?

Pharo 5.1 had 416 preference settings. Pharo 6.1 had 494 preference settings. Pharo 7.0 alpha has 662 preference settings.  Can you see a trend?

Pharo 5.1 had a 27.44 MB image. Pharo 6.1 had a 35.18 MB image. Pharo 7.0 alpha has a 47.97 MB image.  Can you see a trend?

Add to that the fact that Pharo is a nightmare when you want to port code.  Just with the 7.0 release, 61 classes will be deprecated (and lots more to come if you search for the string "deprecated" into the code, most of the time hidden in the comments of the soon-to-be-deprecated-in-Pharo-8-I-guess classes).

You have code that deals with sockets, should you use the old Socket classes or convert everything to Zodiac? And why do we keep both "frameworks" in the image ?  Pharo hasn't been backward compatible with "old socket classes" a looooooong time ago anyway!

You have code that deals with dependencies, should you use the old dependents mechanism or convert everything to announcements?

UI speaking, what framework should anyone use ?  Athens?  Something else?

You have code that deals with streams, should you use the old stream classes or convert everything to Zinc ? And why do we keep both "frameworks" in the image ?  Pharo hasn't been backward compatible with the old stream classes a looooooong time ago anyway!

So what's the plan?  For instance, should I keep using the Nautilus Browser or I should switch to the Calypso browser and get used to it because Nautilus will be deprecated?  Or should I just don't care because a third system browser will be added in Pharo 8 just because "it's cool, let's add this one too!" ?

Couldn't we just decide on what's "official" and what's a goodie or an external optional tool/package/framework the same way all other Smalltalks do?  If you say Calypso is the official & supported browser, fine!  Then just get Nautilus out of the image, create a nice loadable package for it and if someone prefers Nautilus, they'll just have to load it into the image, the same way VW has a gazillion optional tools/packages/frameworks you can load from a parcel!

Whenever I get asked a simple question by a newbie like "Oh, which system browser should I use?", quite frankly, I don't know what to answer.  Did we include Calypso to deprecate Nautilus later?  Is Calypso just a proof of concept?  Is it just an optional tool?  What about all those delay schedulers?  

"I loaded this code from SqueakSource and it just doesn't work".  Should I help the guy to fix it or just tell him to convert all the code to the corresponding framework in Pharo?

Perhaps a little bit of clarity and details about what's coming and what's the plan would be beneficial to a lot of us.


-----------------
Benoît St-Jean
Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
Twitter: @BenLeChialeux
Pinterest: benoitstjean
Instagram: Chef_Benito
IRC: lamneth
Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com
"A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".  (A. Einstein)


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Re: Where do we go now ?

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2


> On 13 Apr 2018, at 12:19, Joe Shirk <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I've been a lurk-fan for a long time but this brings up something that distressed me. Richard Eng, Smalltalk Renaissance hero loves to say Smalltalk's grammar/syntax fits on a postcard.
>
> But the vocabulary doesn't. There is nothing English-like about the always expanding bewildering   library namespaces.
>
> GT what? Oh a newbie might eventually figure out it means Glamorous Toolkit. These are meaningless brands. In this drive to come up with creative names for "just objects" that explain nothing at all, Smalltalk is becoming like Java or PHP hell.
> Just look at those examples through the eyes of a novice. The purity is nowhere to be found.
> :(

You are right, but in 'the real world' it is no longer possible to reserve the nice, simple names for just one variant. The prefixes are a poor mans namespace mechanism. You have to read over them.

Inspector, EyeInspector, GTInspector, ...

I rather have cool alternatives and the development of new ideas than 'one ring to rule them all' or no/slow progress. Remember that we develop in a live system, changing things while testing them, this is often hard. Alternative subsystems help a lot.

> On Apr 13, 2018 1:56 AM, "Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 05:53:46 +0000 (UTC)
> Subject: Where do we go now ?
> Hello guys,
>
> Just a quick word to get some things straight because, quite frankly, I really don't know where we're heading.
>
> When Pharo started, the goal was to depart from Squeak and do a *major clean up* of all the code, especially Morphic.  The promise of a new, clean & lean Smalltalk attracted a lot of people.  And then...
>
> I'm looking at the Pharo 7.0 image right now and I just don't get where we're heading.  Every Pharo release gets bigger, and bigger, and bigger.  I don't mind the environment getting bigger if it adds functionalities or new tools but that's not quite the case here. LOTS of stuff is just duplicated.
>
> Do we really need 2 code completion classes (NECController, NOCController) ?  Do we really need 2 system browsers (Nautilus, Calypso)? Do we really need 2 compilers (OpalCompiler, Compiler) ?  Do we really need 8 delay schedulers (DelayMicrosecondScheduler, DelayMillisecondScheduler, DelayNullScheduler, DelayExperimentalSpinScheduler, DelaySpinScheduler, DelayTicklessScheduler, DelayExperimentalCourageousScheduler, DelayExperimentalSemaphoreScheduler) ?  Do we really need 2 inspectors (GTInspector, EyeInspector) ?  Do we really need 2 workspaces (GTPlayground, Workspace) ? Et cetera. Et cetera. Et cetera.  I could go on, and on, and on...
>
> Pharo 5.1 had 5885 classes. Pharo 6.1 had 6481 classes. Pharo 7.0 alpha has 7612 classes.  Can you see a trend?
>
> Pharo 5.1 had 416 preference settings. Pharo 6.1 had 494 preference settings. Pharo 7.0 alpha has 662 preference settings.  Can you see a trend?
>
> Pharo 5.1 had a 27.44 MB image. Pharo 6.1 had a 35.18 MB image. Pharo 7.0 alpha has a 47.97 MB image.  Can you see a trend?
>
> Add to that the fact that Pharo is a nightmare when you want to port code.  Just with the 7.0 release, 61 classes will be deprecated (and lots more to come if you search for the string "deprecated" into the code, most of the time hidden in the comments of the soon-to-be-deprecated-in-Pharo-8-I-guess classes).
>
> You have code that deals with sockets, should you use the old Socket classes or convert everything to Zodiac? And why do we keep both "frameworks" in the image ?  Pharo hasn't been backward compatible with "old socket classes" a looooooong time ago anyway!
>
> You have code that deals with dependencies, should you use the old dependents mechanism or convert everything to announcements?
>
> UI speaking, what framework should anyone use ?  Athens?  Something else?
>
> You have code that deals with streams, should you use the old stream classes or convert everything to Zinc ? And why do we keep both "frameworks" in the image ?  Pharo hasn't been backward compatible with the old stream classes a looooooong time ago anyway!
>
> So what's the plan?  For instance, should I keep using the Nautilus Browser or I should switch to the Calypso browser and get used to it because Nautilus will be deprecated?  Or should I just don't care because a third system browser will be added in Pharo 8 just because "it's cool, let's add this one too!" ?
>
> Couldn't we just decide on what's "official" and what's a goodie or an external optional tool/package/framework the same way all other Smalltalks do?  If you say Calypso is the official & supported browser, fine!  Then just get Nautilus out of the image, create a nice loadable package for it and if someone prefers Nautilus, they'll just have to load it into the image, the same way VW has a gazillion optional tools/packages/frameworks you can load from a parcel!
>
> Whenever I get asked a simple question by a newbie like "Oh, which system browser should I use?", quite frankly, I don't know what to answer.  Did we include Calypso to deprecate Nautilus later?  Is Calypso just a proof of concept?  Is it just an optional tool?  What about all those delay schedulers?  
>
> "I loaded this code from SqueakSource and it just doesn't work".  Should I help the guy to fix it or just tell him to convert all the code to the corresponding framework in Pharo?
>
> Perhaps a little bit of clarity and details about what's coming and what's the plan would be beneficial to a lot of us.
>
>
> -----------------
> Benoît St-Jean
> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
> Twitter: @BenLeChialeux
> Pinterest: benoitstjean
> Instagram: Chef_Benito
> IRC: lamneth
> Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com
> "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".  (A. Einstein)
>
>


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Re: Where do we go now ?

aglynn42
In reply to this post by EstebanLM

Maybe I’m missing something, or maybe I’m not ‘everyone’, but I’ve only had a few problems with 32 bit Pharo 7 and Windows.  Btw Windows 10 “64 bit” is about as 64 bit as Windows 95 was 32 bit.  i.e. not very.  Most of the issues center around Moose, not the core Pharo.  But I’m only playing with Pharo 7, mainly on Linux where the latest image seems pretty stable.  My actual development is still on 61 (and in one case, 5.0 since it requires the old FFI).

 

M$ is supposed to fix the remains of 32 bit Windows next year, but we all know what ‘next year’ means to Microsoft, it’s forever ‘next year’.

 

As far as I understood, most of the development of Pharo 7 is focused on the 64 bit version in any case.  What’s missing from 61 that you absolutely have to have ATM? 

 

Andrew

 

 

 

From: Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2018 5:26 AM
To: Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>
Cc: Any question about pharo is welcome <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

 

BTW, why put an .exe installer for Windows available when it crashes right from the start? It just doesn't work at all.  Period.  For everyone.

 

And I thought looking for senders of a method was something we mastered a long time ago, like starting with Smalltalk-76.  Am I supposed to assume that everything, even basic functionalities, are all broken because it's labeled "alpha" ?

 

 

-----------------
Benoît St-Jean
Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
Twitter: @BenLeChialeux
Pinterest: benoitstjean
Instagram: Chef_Benito
IRC: lamneth
Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com
"A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".  (A. Einstein)

 

 

On Friday, April 13, 2018, 5:20:28 a.m. EDT, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

 

 



On 13 Apr 2018, at 11:07, Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

I'm on Windows 10, using Pharo 7.0 alpha 32 bit.

 

 

and btw… which part of ALPHA you do not get?

 

Esteban

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Re: Where do we go now ?

aglynn42
In reply to this post by EstebanLM

Btw, in my fascination with messing around, the 32 bit version of Pharo 7 for Windows runs better on OS/2 v.5 (yes, it still exists, it was released last June).  Probably because its Win32 subsystem is more compatible with Win32 apps than Windows 10.

 

Andrew

 

From: Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2018 5:26 AM
To: Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>
Cc: Any question about pharo is welcome <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

 

BTW, why put an .exe installer for Windows available when it crashes right from the start? It just doesn't work at all.  Period.  For everyone.

 

And I thought looking for senders of a method was something we mastered a long time ago, like starting with Smalltalk-76.  Am I supposed to assume that everything, even basic functionalities, are all broken because it's labeled "alpha" ?

 

 

-----------------
Benoît St-Jean
Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
Twitter: @BenLeChialeux
Pinterest: benoitstjean
Instagram: Chef_Benito
IRC: lamneth
Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com
"A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".  (A. Einstein)

 

 

On Friday, April 13, 2018, 5:20:28 a.m. EDT, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

 

 



On 13 Apr 2018, at 11:07, Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

I'm on Windows 10, using Pharo 7.0 alpha 32 bit.

 

 

and btw… which part of ALPHA you do not get?

 

Esteban

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Re: Where do we go now ?

Marcus Denker-4
In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2


> On 13 Apr 2018, at 12:40, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
>> On 13 Apr 2018, at 12:19, Joe Shirk <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I've been a lurk-fan for a long time but this brings up something that distressed me. Richard Eng, Smalltalk Renaissance hero loves to say Smalltalk's grammar/syntax fits on a postcard.
>>
>> But the vocabulary doesn't. There is nothing English-like about the always expanding bewildering   library namespaces.
>>

The package names that just use the “project name” can be problematic… too many words. e.g. “Hiedra”? No idea. (there are ideas of how to improve, I will not list them here as this should
not turn into discussion about this issue).

The way we present packages (and their granularity) is not “right”.  Namespaces are a problem in addition…

So yes: we have a lot of thing to improve!
.
>> GT what? Oh a newbie might eventually figure out it means Glamorous Toolkit. These are meaningless brands. In this drive to come up with creative names for "just objects" that explain nothing at all, Smalltalk is becoming like Java or PHP hell.
>> Just look at those examples through the eyes of a novice. The purity is nowhere to be found.
>> :(
>
> You are right, but in 'the real world' it is no longer possible to reserve the nice, simple names for just one variant. The prefixes are a poor mans namespace mechanism. You have to read over them.
>
> Inspector, EyeInspector, GTInspector, ...
>
> I rather have cool alternatives and the development of new ideas than 'one ring to rule them all' or no/slow progress. Remember that we develop in a live system, changing things while testing them, this is often hard. Alternative subsystems help a lot.

It should be clear that what we have is what we managed to do, not what we dreamed about… I, too, would like to have this clean, nice, small, amazing system… but it is not always easy.

There is a lot we can (and will!) improve!

        Marcus


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Re: Where do we go now ?

Richard O'Keefe
There are a lot of subsystems in Pharo, and being a bear of
very little brain, I have a hard time relating Zinc, Calypso,
&c &c to, well, whatever they are.  I presume there is
somewhere a list of topic/name/PFX triples for guidance.
Can some kind soul tell me where it is?


On 13 April 2018 at 23:01, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:


> On 13 Apr 2018, at 12:40, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
>> On 13 Apr 2018, at 12:19, Joe Shirk <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I've been a lurk-fan for a long time but this brings up something that distressed me. Richard Eng, Smalltalk Renaissance hero loves to say Smalltalk's grammar/syntax fits on a postcard.
>>
>> But the vocabulary doesn't. There is nothing English-like about the always expanding bewildering   library namespaces.
>>

The package names that just use the “project name” can be problematic… too many words. e.g. “Hiedra”? No idea. (there are ideas of how to improve, I will not list them here as this should
not turn into discussion about this issue).

The way we present packages (and their granularity) is not “right”.  Namespaces are a problem in addition…

So yes: we have a lot of thing to improve!
.
>> GT what? Oh a newbie might eventually figure out it means Glamorous Toolkit. These are meaningless brands. In this drive to come up with creative names for "just objects" that explain nothing at all, Smalltalk is becoming like Java or PHP hell.
>> Just look at those examples through the eyes of a novice. The purity is nowhere to be found.
>> :(
>
> You are right, but in 'the real world' it is no longer possible to reserve the nice, simple names for just one variant. The prefixes are a poor mans namespace mechanism. You have to read over them.
>
> Inspector, EyeInspector, GTInspector, ...
>
> I rather have cool alternatives and the development of new ideas than 'one ring to rule them all' or no/slow progress. Remember that we develop in a live system, changing things while testing them, this is often hard. Alternative subsystems help a lot.

It should be clear that what we have is what we managed to do, not what we dreamed about… I, too, would like to have this clean, nice, small, amazing system… but it is not always easy.

There is a lot we can (and will!) improve!

        Marcus



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Re: Where do we go now ?

Denis Kudriashov
In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4
With new Traits we have some issues which we are slowly fixing. Nice thing that fixes are quite simple and clean and covered by tests. I guess it was not like that before.
So Pablo did very good job here.

For this concrete case with implementors there is already issue 21652: the method allClassesAndTraits includes traits twice.

2018-04-13 11:30 GMT+02:00 Marcus Denker <[hidden email]>:


On 13 Apr 2018, at 11:26, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users <[hidden email]> wrote:


From: Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?
Date: 13 April 2018 at 11:26:09 CEST
To: Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>
Cc: Any question about pharo is welcome <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]>


BTW, why put an .exe installer for Windows available when it crashes right from the start? It just doesn't work at all.  Period.  For everyone.

And I thought looking for senders of a method was something we mastered a long time ago, like starting with Smalltalk-76.  Am I supposed to assume that everything, even basic functionalities, are all broken because it's labeled "alpha” ?

We have already a issue tracker entry with a description of a fix:


TODO: turn that description into code and make a Pull Request.

Marcus


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Re: Where do we go now ?

Peter Uhnak
In reply to this post by Richard O'Keefe
On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 2:05 PM, Richard O'Keefe <[hidden email]> wrote:
There are a lot of subsystems in Pharo, and being a bear of
very little brain, I have a hard time relating Zinc, Calypso,
&c &c to, well, whatever they are.  I presume there is
somewhere a list of topic/name/PFX triples for guidance.
Can some kind soul tell me where it is?

Until we have mature package manager (similar to Cargo or npm), you have to use google.
On the bright side, with the move to git(hub), people are much more likely to actually describe what their project does, and maybe even a bit of documentation. This was almost non-existent with SmalltalkHub.

Peter
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Re: Where do we go now ?

Ben Coman
In reply to this post by Richard O'Keefe
Unfortunately there probably isn't one list.
Its hard to unlearn what is accumulated 
and easy to take for granted what we know is obvious to everyone.
where newcomers can add items for others to fill in.

cheers -ben

On 13 April 2018 at 20:05, Richard O'Keefe <[hidden email]> wrote:
There are a lot of subsystems in Pharo, and being a bear of
very little brain, I have a hard time relating Zinc, Calypso,
&c &c to, well, whatever they are.  I presume there is
somewhere a list of topic/name/PFX triples for guidance.
Can some kind soul tell me where it is?


On 13 April 2018 at 23:01, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote:


> On 13 Apr 2018, at 12:40, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
>> On 13 Apr 2018, at 12:19, Joe Shirk <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I've been a lurk-fan for a long time but this brings up something that distressed me. Richard Eng, Smalltalk Renaissance hero loves to say Smalltalk's grammar/syntax fits on a postcard.
>>
>> But the vocabulary doesn't. There is nothing English-like about the always expanding bewildering   library namespaces.
>>

The package names that just use the “project name” can be problematic… too many words. e.g. “Hiedra”? No idea. (there are ideas of how to improve, I will not list them here as this should
not turn into discussion about this issue).

The way we present packages (and their granularity) is not “right”.  Namespaces are a problem in addition…

So yes: we have a lot of thing to improve!
.
>> GT what? Oh a newbie might eventually figure out it means Glamorous Toolkit. These are meaningless brands. In this drive to come up with creative names for "just objects" that explain nothing at all, Smalltalk is becoming like Java or PHP hell.
>> Just look at those examples through the eyes of a novice. The purity is nowhere to be found.
>> :(
>
> You are right, but in 'the real world' it is no longer possible to reserve the nice, simple names for just one variant. The prefixes are a poor mans namespace mechanism. You have to read over them.
>
> Inspector, EyeInspector, GTInspector, ...
>
> I rather have cool alternatives and the development of new ideas than 'one ring to rule them all' or no/slow progress. Remember that we develop in a live system, changing things while testing them, this is often hard. Alternative subsystems help a lot.

It should be clear that what we have is what we managed to do, not what we dreamed about… I, too, would like to have this clean, nice, small, amazing system… but it is not always easy.

There is a lot we can (and will!) improve!

        Marcus




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Re: Where do we go now ?

Esteban A. Maringolo
In reply to this post by Richard O'Keefe
On 13/04/2018 09:05, Richard O'Keefe wrote:
> There are a lot of subsystems in Pharo, and being a bear of
> very little brain, I have a hard time relating Zinc, Calypso,
> &c &c to, well, whatever they are.  I presume there is
> somewhere a list of topic/name/PFX triples for guidance.
> Can some kind soul tell me where it is?

I think it's not a matter of brain, and unless I also have a bear brain
I find it hard to know what each thing means, in particular when there
is a "flagship" framework (like Seaside) and the related
extensions/libraries are called something different instead of, it is
harder when the names are completely unrelated to the domain.

I've been thinking of collecting the package names, what they do, an
which class prefixes they use. But never had the willingness to actually
do it, maybe now is a good moment.


Regards,

--
Esteban.





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Re: Where do we go now ?

Denis Kudriashov
In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4


2018-04-13 13:01 GMT+02:00 Marcus Denker <[hidden email]>:


> On 13 Apr 2018, at 12:40, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
>> On 13 Apr 2018, at 12:19, Joe Shirk <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I've been a lurk-fan for a long time but this brings up something that distressed me. Richard Eng, Smalltalk Renaissance hero loves to say Smalltalk's grammar/syntax fits on a postcard.
>>
>> But the vocabulary doesn't. There is nothing English-like about the always expanding bewildering   library namespaces.
>>

The package names that just use the “project name” can be problematic… too many words. e.g. “Hiedra”? No idea. (there are ideas of how to improve, I will not list them here as this should
not turn into discussion about this issue).


At some point we should force rule "All packages have comments". And indication with icon like we do for classes.
With Calypso the package comment is always available. So it would be easy to find description.

The way we present packages (and their granularity) is not “right”.  Namespaces are a problem in addition…

So yes: we have a lot of thing to improve!
.
>> GT what? Oh a newbie might eventually figure out it means Glamorous Toolkit. These are meaningless brands. In this drive to come up with creative names for "just objects" that explain nothing at all, Smalltalk is becoming like Java or PHP hell.
>> Just look at those examples through the eyes of a novice. The purity is nowhere to be found.
>> :(
>
> You are right, but in 'the real world' it is no longer possible to reserve the nice, simple names for just one variant. The prefixes are a poor mans namespace mechanism. You have to read over them.
>
> Inspector, EyeInspector, GTInspector, ...
>
> I rather have cool alternatives and the development of new ideas than 'one ring to rule them all' or no/slow progress. Remember that we develop in a live system, changing things while testing them, this is often hard. Alternative subsystems help a lot.

It should be clear that what we have is what we managed to do, not what we dreamed about… I, too, would like to have this clean, nice, small, amazing system… but it is not always easy.

There is a lot we can (and will!) improve!

        Marcus



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Re: Where do we go now ?

Esteban A. Maringolo
In reply to this post by Peter Uhnak
On 13/04/2018 09:18, Peter Uhnák wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 2:05 PM, Richard O'Keefe <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     There are a lot of subsystems in Pharo, and being a bear of
>     very little brain, I have a hard time relating Zinc, Calypso,
>     &c &c to, well, whatever they are.  I presume there is
>     somewhere a list of topic/name/PFX triples for guidance.
>     Can some kind soul tell me where it is?


> Until we have mature package manager (similar to Cargo or npm), you have
> to use google.

Yes, there needs to be a package tool that enables discoverability,
Catalog is not enough.

> On the bright side, with the move to git(hub), people are much more
> likely to actually describe what their project does, and maybe even a
> bit of documentation. This was almost non-existent with SmalltalkHub.

True, and it's also giving visibility to Pharo and Smalltalk as active
technologies.

Regards,

--
Esteban A. Maringolo

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