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On May 23, 2007, at 14:11, Andre Schnoor wrote:
Hmmm.... That should work. #linkedIn basically means the library is not a separate library, the symbols are in the programs symbol space already. And the Aqua VM definitely has the objc library linked in. :) As for how well will the interface work. It's really pretty straightforward. The interface right now is all about integers. Objective-C objects are almost always pointers, so those are integers. And many interfaces are of course integers. The thing where you might have trouble is - (void) anObjcMethod: (float) theArgument The VW interface to the perform function wants to feed an integer to that right now. You *could* make an integer which was the byte equivalent of the float (e.g. (Float pi copy changeClassTo: LargePositiveInteger) compressed). But it wouldn't do you much good when it came to a double. So you'd have to build a different binding for something that took doubles are any non-4-byte argument. The performance could be improved as well. Currently, a message send, involves fetching the pointer to the SEL object which represents the method signature. This is going to be a string search and all. And it will do it redundantly every time. For my needs it was fast enough and not called lots. When and if this lookup-the-method-each-time became a problem, you could always cache. The original version had caching, but I could concoct scenarios that didn't make sense for it, so I bagged it until it became a problem. -- Travis Griggs Objologist 10 2 letter words: "If it is to be, it is up to me" |
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Travis Griggs wrote:
Using ' /usr/lib/libobjc.A.dylib' as a replacement for #linkedIn
did it. Now it works fine.
Dynamically modifying the menu bar's items and submenus (when the currently active window changes) should only incur a few selectors. Anyway, as opposed to other languages, caching is extremely cheap and simple in Smalltalk. When it comes to menu bars and its nested menus and items, I am still a bit afraid of that "object ownership" based garbage collection of Objective-C (although it is lightyears better than NO garbage collection). Thanks very much for your input. Andre |
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You can access the menu via [NSApp mainMenu]....not sure how you can
access NSApp from visualworks, but basically it's a global variable. NSApp can also be accessed by calling [NSApplication sharedApplication]. Once you have the main-menu, you should have a look at the docs for NSMenu for how you can change the menu. the docs for NSMenu are found at: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Cocoa/Reference/ApplicationKit/Classes/NSMenu_Class/Reference/Reference.html good luck! Kind Regards Karsten Andre Schnoor wrote: > Travis Griggs wrote: >> On May 23, 2007, at 14:11, Andre Schnoor wrote: >> >>> Boris Popov wrote: >>>> I'd start with User Experience over at, >>>> >>>> http://developer.apple.com/reference/Cocoa/index.html >>>> >>>> Travis' example comes from, >>>> >>>> http://tinyurl.com/2kxx93 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> Thanks. I am well aware it's the Cocoa interface that uses >>> Objective-C, but Travis' package doesn't seem to work, which is why >>> I wonder if it is complete. VW complains about a library that can >>> not be found. Looks like the #linkedIn library name is not handled >>> as intended. >> >> Hmmm.... >> >> That should work. #linkedIn basically means the library is not a >> separate library, the symbols are in the programs symbol space >> already. And the Aqua VM definitely has the objc library linked in. :) > > Using '|/usr/lib/libobjc.A.dylib' as a replacement for #linkedIn did > it. Now it works fine. > > | >> >> As for how well will the interface work. It's really pretty >> straightforward. The interface right now is all about integers. >> Objective-C objects are almost always pointers, so those are >> integers. And many interfaces are of course integers. The thing where >> you might have trouble is >> >> - (void) anObjcMethod: (float) theArgument >> >> The VW interface to the perform function wants to feed an integer to >> that right now. You *could* make an integer which was the byte >> equivalent of the float (e.g. (Float pi copy changeClassTo: >> LargePositiveInteger) compressed). But it wouldn't do you much good >> when it came to a double. So you'd have to build a different binding >> for something that took doubles are any non-4-byte argument. >> >> The performance could be improved as well. Currently, a message send, >> involves fetching the pointer to the SEL object which represents the >> method signature. This is going to be a string search and all. And it >> will do it redundantly every time. For my needs it was fast enough >> and not called lots. When and if this lookup-the-method-each-time >> became a problem, you could always cache. The original version had >> caching, but I could concoct scenarios that didn't make sense for it, >> so I bagged it until it became a problem. > > Dynamically modifying the menu bar's items and submenus (when the > currently active window changes) should only incur a few selectors. > Anyway, as opposed to other languages, caching is extremely cheap and > simple in Smalltalk. > > When it comes to menu bars and its nested menus and items, I am still > a bit afraid of that "object ownership" based garbage collection of > Objective-C (although it is lightyears better than NO garbage > collection). > > Thanks very much for your input. > > Andre > -- Karsten Kusche - Student - [hidden email] Georg Heeg eK - Köthen Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Dortmund A 12812 |
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In reply to this post by stefano-franchi
Hi,
I experienced the ParagraphEditor problem on 10.4.9 as well, and had to switch to X11. Cheers, Doru On May 23, 2007, at 10:49 PM, Stefano Franchi wrote: > > On 24 May, 2007, at 7:04 AM, Andre Schnoor wrote: > >> Boris Popov wrote: >>> Not to hijack this thread or anything, but I'm about to purchase >>> a new >>> MacBook and would like to check up on the latest state of the VMs >>> with >>> those in the know. I haven't been following bug reports (and fix >>> reports) too much, but I do recall seeing a few popping up with a >>> native >>> VM lately. So, which VM should I be using? X11 or the new one? Any >>> gotchas to look out for > > Although it will probably not be a problem on a new MacBook > running the latest version of MacOs, I am having a of of troubles > with VW 7.5's Aqua VM running on top of MacOs 10.3.9. I reported > on the problem before, but basically, the paragraphEditor mangles > up the text. Given the ubiquity of ParagraphEditor, that basically > means VW 7.5 is unusable for me, and I had to switch to X11. I am > not the only one experiencing this problem either., but it seems > limited to MacOs 10.3. > > > Cheers, > > S. > __________________________________________________ > Stefano Franchi > Department of Philosophy Ph: (64) 9 373-7599 x83940 > University Of Auckland Fax: (64) 9 373-8768 > Private Bag 92019 [hidden email] > Auckland > New Zealand > -- Tudor Girba www.iam.unibe.ch/~girba www.iam.unibe.ch/~girba/blog/ "One cannot do more than one can do." |
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In reply to this post by Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs (SNN)
Boris Popov wrote:
> Take a look at Travis' "ObjectiveCRuntime" package in public repository. > Here's the comment: > > "ObjectiveCRuntime is a very simple interface to the objective-c runtime > library. It was inspired by the ObcConnect package built by Heeg when > they did the first OSX port. That package aspired to be much more than I > needed, and had issues with some of its aspirations. So I harvested and > simplified this very simple interface. It probably needs to grow a > little. But it was simple enough for my immediate needs. I know it can > do this for example: > can you tell me about the issues you had with ObjCConnect? Ralf -- Ralf Propach, [hidden email] Tel: +49 231 975 99 38 Fax: +49 231 975 99 20 Georg Heeg eK (Dortmund) Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Dortmund A 12812 |
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In reply to this post by stefano-franchi
Stefano Franchi wrote:
> Although it will probably not be a problem on a new MacBook running the > latest version of MacOs, I am having a of of troubles with VW 7.5's > Aqua VM running on top of MacOs 10.3.9. I reported on the problem > before, but basically, the paragraphEditor mangles up the text. Given > the ubiquity of ParagraphEditor, that basically means VW 7.5 is unusable > for me, and I had to switch to X11. I am not the only one experiencing > this problem either., but it seems limited to MacOs 10.3. Yes, this is a know issue. It's a text measuring problem. Apparently the OS level support for these things is significantly different between 10.4 and earlier releases. Consequently the VM team focused on the 10.4 release. I believe, it's not clear at this point if there is enough interest to justify the effort to fix up 10.3 support as well (I think I've heard that 10.2 is different from 10.3 as well so there's definitely a diminishing return on the investment going further back). Especially since X11 is a fairly viable workaround for the older platforms. HTH, Martin |
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In reply to this post by Tudor Girba-3
Tudor Girba wrote:
> Hi, > > I experienced the ParagraphEditor problem on 10.4.9 as well, and had to > switch to X11. > > Cheers, > Doru Did you use the 7.5 released engines or some earlier build ? There shouldn't be these kinds of problems on 10.4. HTH, Martin |
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Hi,
this is a screenshot from a VisualWorks 7.5 NC Image with RBCodeHighlighting loaded. I'm pretty sure the underline bug has something to do with the text-measurement. This screenshot was taken on an intel mac with Mac OS X 10.4.9. With the X11-vm this just looks fine. Kind Regards Karsten Martin Kobetic wrote: > Tudor Girba wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I experienced the ParagraphEditor problem on 10.4.9 as well, and had >> to switch to X11. >> >> Cheers, >> Doru > > Did you use the 7.5 released engines or some earlier build ? There > shouldn't be these kinds of problems on 10.4. > > HTH, > > Martin > > Karsten Kusche - Student - [hidden email] Georg Heeg eK - Köthen Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Dortmund A 12812 |
ParagraphEditor.png (77K) |
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Thanks,
I'll forward it to the VM folks and let you know. Martin Karsten wrote: > Hi, > > this is a screenshot from a VisualWorks 7.5 NC Image with > RBCodeHighlighting loaded. I'm pretty sure the underline bug has > something to do with the text-measurement. This screenshot was taken on > an intel mac with Mac OS X 10.4.9. With the X11-vm this just looks fine. > > Kind Regards > Karsten > > > Martin Kobetic wrote: >> Tudor Girba wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> I experienced the ParagraphEditor problem on 10.4.9 as well, and had >>> to switch to X11. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Doru >> >> Did you use the 7.5 released engines or some earlier build ? There >> shouldn't be these kinds of problems on 10.4. >> >> HTH, >> >> Martin >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > |
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In reply to this post by Andre Schnoor
From: Martin Kobetic [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Stefano Franchi wrote: > > I am having a of of troubles with VW 7.5's > > Aqua VM running on top of MacOs 10.3.9. > > basically, the paragraphEditor mangles up the text. > > Yes, this is a know issue. It's a text measuring problem. > Apparently the OS level support for these things is > significantly different between 10.4 and earlier releases. > Consequently the VM team focused on the 10.4 release. I > believe, it's not clear at this point if there is enough > interest to justify the effort to fix up 10.3 support as well > (I think I've heard that 10.2 is different from 10.3 as well > so there's definitely a diminishing return on the investment > going further back). Especially since X11 is a fairly viable > workaround for the older platforms. Thanks for the information Martin! install.pdf says you support 10.x for the native VM, and 10.2 up for X11. The Cincom product release catalog for Jan 07 doesn't mention VW7.5 yet, but earlier ones said 10.2 was supported. At least on PPC, I'd imagine there are and will remain a fair few 10.3 installations. I remember a poll on vw-dev at some point, and the conclusion seemed to be that 10.3 and 10.4 were needed, but 10.2 could be pretty much forgotten. Supporting 10.3 would be nice, as at the moment trying to deploy to Mac customers is something of a pain, with the choices between X11 and native, 7.4.1 and 7.5, and PPC and x86. Currently the 7.5 native VM is overall worse on 10.3 than the 7.4.1 native VM. Improving support for 10.3 would mean we could stick with 7.5 and thus get rid of one of the choices! Cheers, Steve |
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Thanks Steven,
I'm stuck with a 10.3.9 PPC as well :-). I'll make sure this gets heard internally too. Cheers, Martin Steven Kelly wrote: > Thanks for the information Martin! > > install.pdf says you support 10.x for the native VM, and 10.2 up for > X11. > The Cincom product release catalog for Jan 07 doesn't mention VW7.5 yet, > but earlier ones said 10.2 was supported. > > At least on PPC, I'd imagine there are and will remain a fair few 10.3 > installations. I remember a poll on vw-dev at some point, and the > conclusion seemed to be that 10.3 and 10.4 were needed, but 10.2 could > be pretty much forgotten. > > Supporting 10.3 would be nice, as at the moment trying to deploy to Mac > customers is something of a pain, with the choices between X11 and > native, 7.4.1 and 7.5, and PPC and x86. Currently the 7.5 native VM is > overall worse on 10.3 than the 7.4.1 native VM. Improving support for > 10.3 would mean we could stick with 7.5 and thus get rid of one of the > choices! > > Cheers, > Steve > |
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I second VW 7.5+ native support for 10.3.9 PPC as well... Cheers, Stewart >-----Original Message----- >From: Martin Kobetic [mailto:[hidden email]] >Sent: 25 May 2007 3:35 a.m. >To: Steven Kelly >Cc: vwnc-list >Subject: Re: MacOS X > >Thanks Steven, > >I'm stuck with a 10.3.9 PPC as well :-). I'll make sure this gets heard >internally too. > >Cheers, > >Martin > >Steven Kelly wrote: >> Thanks for the information Martin! >> >> install.pdf says you support 10.x for the native VM, and 10.2 up for >> X11. >> The Cincom product release catalog for Jan 07 doesn't mention VW7.5 >> but earlier ones said 10.2 was supported. >> >> At least on PPC, I'd imagine there are and will remain a fair few 10.3 >> installations. I remember a poll on vw-dev at some point, and the >> conclusion seemed to be that 10.3 and 10.4 were needed, but 10.2 could >> be pretty much forgotten. >> >> Supporting 10.3 would be nice, as at the moment trying to deploy to Mac >> customers is something of a pain, with the choices between X11 and >> native, 7.4.1 and 7.5, and PPC and x86. Currently the 7.5 native VM is >> overall worse on 10.3 than the 7.4.1 native VM. Improving support for >> 10.3 would mean we could stick with 7.5 and thus get rid of one of the >> choices! >> >> Cheers, >> Steve >> |
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In reply to this post by kobetic
Hi,
I used the original version that came with the 7.5 distribution from the Cincom website. I use Mac Intel. Cheers Doru On May 24, 2007, at 4:25 PM, Martin Kobetic wrote: > Tudor Girba wrote: >> Hi, >> I experienced the ParagraphEditor problem on 10.4.9 as well, and >> had to switch to X11. >> Cheers, >> Doru > > Did you use the 7.5 released engines or some earlier build ? There > shouldn't be these kinds of problems on 10.4. > > HTH, > > Martin -- Tudor Girba www.iam.unibe.ch/~girba www.iam.unibe.ch/~girba/blog/ "Every successful trip needs a suitable vehicle." |
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In reply to this post by Andre Schnoor
Andre Schnoor schrieb:
> Alexander Lazarevic' wrote: >> Do you know how applications using Java Swing are perceived by Mac OS X >> Users? > Most likely they are perceived as "Java" applications, because Swing is > widely associated with Java. Well yes. But the idea was, if you know that a mac user is so picky about the real thing, how do you estimate how willing/reluctant he is to use "something completely different". I suspected, that Java Apps with Swing would make the majoritiy of apps with a different GUI on the mac and could provide some info for estimation. I could imagine, that it wouldn't make much sense to come up with a very different look, if this would be rejected the same way you say the current VW MacOS look is. Alex |
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Alexander Lazarevic' wrote: Andre Schnoor wrote: Unfortunately I don't have the numbers for Java apps on the Mac. Me for example never used a Java app on a regular basis, neither on Mac nor on PC. I think it depends on the kind of product you are offering. If the software is mostly doing something "standard" (word processing, spreadsheets, database, etc.), then it should look and feel similar to the established standards in order to not disrupt and confuse the user. OpenOffice 2.2, for example, runs under X11 and looks and behaves extremely "different" and "ported". It is likely that a majority of Mac users don't feel comfortable with it (don't know the current OOo numbers, though). On the orther hand, if your product does something special and unique (i.e. users have to take a learning curve anyway), chances are the acceptance is way better. Niche tools should do well here. For example almost every music software uses a custom interface (although some look and perform better that others). Andre |
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Andre Schnoor wrote:
> > Alexander Lazarevic' wrote: >> Andre Schnoor wrote: >> >>> Alexander Lazarevic' wrote: >>> >>>> Do you know how applications using Java Swing are perceived by Mac OS X >>>> Users? >>>> >>> Most likely they are perceived as "Java" applications, because Swing is >>> widely associated with Java. >>> >> >> Well yes. But the idea was, if you know that a mac user is so picky >> about the real thing, how do you estimate how willing/reluctant he is to >> use "something completely different". I suspected, that Java Apps with >> Swing would make the majoritiy of apps with a different GUI on the mac >> and could provide some info for estimation. >> I could imagine, that it wouldn't make much sense to come up with a very >> different look, if this would be rejected the same way you say the >> current VW MacOS look is > > Unfortunately I don't have the numbers for Java apps on the Mac. Me > for example never used a Java app on a regular basis, neither on Mac > nor on PC. > > I think it depends on the kind of product you are offering. If the > software is mostly doing something "standard" (word processing, > spreadsheets, database, etc.), then it should look and feel similar to > the established standards in order to not disrupt and confuse the > user. OpenOffice 2.2, for example, runs under X11 and looks and > behaves extremely "different" and "ported". It is likely that a > majority of Mac users don't feel comfortable with it (don't know the > current OOo numbers, though). > MoneyDance -- a product similar to Quicken.. I use it a fair amount on the Mac and the interface works pretty well -- I've never really looked at it to compare it to a native MAC app, but the interface is easy to use,etc. To me it appears to be a bit more decorated than a typical cross platform Java app (IMHO). |
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Two examples of a well used apps that have their own look rather than try to emulate the host OS are Songbird and the Vuze software from Azureus. Azureus is a java bittorrent client, ans songbird is a cross platform music player / manager that is built on mozilla.
<a href="http://www.songbirdnest.com/themes/gespaa_customized/screenshot_smartpl.png" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://www.songbirdnest.com/themes/gespaa_customized/screenshot_smartpl.png <a href="http://www.vuze.com/az-web/Screenshots.html" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> http://www.vuze.com/az-web/Screenshots.html Mike On 5/28/07, Rick Flower
<[hidden email]> wrote: Andre Schnoor wrote: -- Mike Hales Engineering Manager KnowledgeScape <a href="http://www.kscape.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> www.kscape.com -- Mike Hales Engineering Manager KnowledgeScape www.kscape.com |
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Mike Hales wrote: Two examples of a well used apps that have their own look rather than try to emulate the host OS are Songbird and the Vuze software from Azureus. Azureus is a java bittorrent client, ans songbird is a cross platform music player / manager that is built on mozilla. They're looking lovely. This kind of L&F however is impossible to create with VW currently (although I doubt these number crunching apps are typical applications for Smalltalk anyway). One would more likely use ST for apps with a complex domain model rather than just pumping streams of bytes to the screen or speaker ;-) Andre |
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Yeah but the point is we want to be able to make apps that look really good. They can look awesome and not be native and users will not care. I guess my bottom line is this: if it looks awesome it can be native or not, and no one will care.
Widgetry extended to use Cairo and Pango seems like the fastest way to get that ability. I don't see hacking wrapper to do that, but hacking widgetry seems doable. We made a Widgetry CairoCanvas in a couple of minutes at Smalltalk Solutions. It fit right into the framework and drew with Cairo. Mike On 5/28/07, Andre Schnoor <[hidden email]> wrote:
-- Mike Hales Engineering Manager KnowledgeScape www.kscape.com |
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I second that. It would also be nice if
Cincom had an experienced graphic designer to work on the “new” looks
and let engineers do what they do best – write code. Oh, and did I
mention “new” looks should be easy to create? Not “xml
configuration + css file + whatnot” easy, but easy in code with clear “look”
classes (as few as possible per look) that one could a) clone and edit or b)
subclass and adjust. So that if we were working on a slick new application and
got our designer to come up with a skin that we would later code into a “look”,
I wouldn’t have to hack the Widgetry to pieces and create a new artist
for every widget out there (is that how it works now?). Cheers! -Boris From:
[hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mike Hales Yeah but the point is we
want to be able to make apps that look really good. They can look awesome
and not be native and users will not care. I guess my bottom line is
this: if it looks awesome it can be native or not, and no one will care. On 5/28/07, Andre
Schnoor <[hidden email]>
wrote:
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