New Topic To Beat Into the Ground
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they hired Travis, can't be on too much of a "shoestring" budget :)
On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:06:49 -0500, Travis Griggs <[hidden email]> wrote: > On Mar 23, 2007, at 12:39, Rich Demers wrote: > >> I'd be happy just to know that Cincom is adequately funding >> Smalltalk product engineering and marketing. The impression I've >> gotten to date is that they are working on a shoestring budget. > > But our shoestrings all have cool balloons on them. :) > > -- > Travis Griggs > Objologist > "Dying men never wish they'd spent more time at the office" > > -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ |
Re: New Topic To Beat Into the Ground
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Only after Vassili and I (and earlier in the year Len Lutomski) left, and not without struggle. i.e. Cincom is holding expenses flat while revenues are extremely healthy. This was the major reason behind my leaving, i.e. I had no confidence that CIncom was willing to put in the necessary investment for VW to flourish.
On 3/26/07, Charles A. Monteiro <[hidden email]> wrote: they hired Travis, can't be on too much of a "shoestring" budget :) |
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To date, all of the new hires within product development proper are
replacements for existing staff members, and so don't represent any
increase in spending. Len Lutomski left last year, and was replaced by
Travis Griggs. John Sarkela has moved into the VM lead role after Eliot's
departure and Andres Valloud was hired to fill the vacant position.
Similarly, Travis has moved into the Tools lead role after Vassili's
departure, and the vacant position will be filled by Michael Lucas-Smith.
We are also in the process of hiring for an additional support position
as a replacement for two vacant positions in India support. Outside of
engineering we hired Arden Thomas as a field engineer last year, which
was a new position.
I don't think that you could reasonably describe our budget as "shoestring", given the number of people involved. On the other hand, there is a great deal of product to cover, and we could certainly use more staff, an opinion that has been repeatedly expressed to management. Personally, I think we need at least one full-time position just to keep up with this e-mail thread. I'll also note, though it is perhaps of limited interest to those outside Cincom, that there are some significant re-organizations going on. Within engineering, we are trying to organize development in a more agile fashion, re-allocating resources, and generally trying to deal with some of the organizational hurdles we've faced in the past. In terms of corporate organization, our previous director, Ron Weeks, is shortly moving into a new position as Director of Business Planning and Research, and will be replaced by Dave Schwarber, who will now head up almost all of Cincom's engineering operations. We're hopeful that these changes will be very positive and allow us to move forward better than we have in the past. At 02:17 PM 3/26/2007, Eliot Miranda wrote: Only after Vassili and I (and earlier in the year Len Lutomski) left, and not without struggle. i.e. Cincom is holding expenses flat while revenues are extremely healthy. This was the major reason behind my leaving, i.e. I had no confidence that CIncom was willing to put in the necessary investment for VW to flourish. --
Alan Knight [|], Cincom Smalltalk Development
"The Static Typing Philosophy: Make it fast. Make it right.
Make it run." - Niall Ross
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Re: New Topic To Beat Into the Ground
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In reply to this post by Otto Behrens
I had to use Hardcopy once for a due diligence. We also used to use it
for off-site code reviews, but we haven't done one of those in quite a while. Otto Behrens wrote: > > I had to browse around a bit to figure out how I use the browser! > > > > I have also never used Hardcopy or Zoom. > > > -- Visit <http://tggagne.blogspot.com/>,<http://gagne.homedns.org/> or <http://gagne.homedns.org/~tgagne/> for more great reading. |
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In reply to this post by Sattler, Thomas (IT)
We use the Ad Hoc SQL tool for testing DB connections. We currently use
Sybase as well, but have played with ODBC lately. Since our application isn't yet ODBC-aware, the Ad Hoc tool is a great way to see if we've gotten the connection parameters configured correctly. Beyond that we don't use it either. Sattler, Thomas (IT) wrote: > Personally, I like spawn. > > I'd agree to get rid of Hardcopy, though. > > And, while we're on the subject, let's either upgrade, or eliminate > entirely, one of the least-used pieces of VW: the Ad Hoc SQL tool. <snip> -- Visit <http://tggagne.blogspot.com/>,<http://gagne.homedns.org/> or <http://gagne.homedns.org/~tgagne/> for more great reading. |
RE: New Topic To Beat Into the Ground
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Well we use the AdHocSQL sometimes, as it has advantages over external tools: the data has been treated by the EXDI machinery, which
sometimes makes the difference. Only after some extensions and improvements, though... (like more appropriate column widths, sql history) Thomas > -----Original Message----- > From: Thomas Gagné [mailto:[hidden email]] > Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 10:01 PM > To: vwnc > Subject: Re: New Topic To Beat Into the Ground > > We use the Ad Hoc SQL tool for testing DB connections. We > currently use > Sybase as well, but have played with ODBC lately. Since our > application > isn't yet ODBC-aware, the Ad Hoc tool is a great way to see if we've > gotten the connection parameters configured correctly. Beyond that we > don't use it either. > > Sattler, Thomas (IT) wrote: > > Personally, I like spawn. > > > > I'd agree to get rid of Hardcopy, though. > > > > And, while we're on the subject, let's either upgrade, or eliminate > > entirely, one of the least-used pieces of VW: the Ad Hoc SQL tool. > > <snip> > > -- > Visit <http://tggagne.blogspot.com/>,<http://gagne.homedns.org/> or > <http://gagne.homedns.org/~tgagne/> for more great reading. > > > > |
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In reply to this post by Charles A. Monteiro-2
The "rename" function should either be removed (I can rename a function
easily without it by creating new and remove) or fixed so that it doesn't change an entire image's reference to my method. If I really want to rename something, it's very likely I only want to change code that's local to the method being renamed--same class, same package, same parcel and finally global. -- Visit <http://tggagne.blogspot.com/>,<http://gagne.homedns.org/> or <http://gagne.homedns.org/~tgagne/> for more great reading. |
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In reply to this post by Eliot Miranda-2
the fact that was actually your major reason for leaving is very upsetting
to me. If the engineering staff is not supported by its own company, if said company does not put faith in an organization (Cincom Smalltalk) that has more than held its own, by re-investing a percentage of the profits so that folks are adequately compensated and frankly also by adding of more personnel then what faith can I have as a customer in the long term viability of VisualWorks?. How can I bank my business, our company's future on Cincom Smalltalk? This is an entirely untenable situation -Charles On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 13:17:57 -0500, Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]> wrote: > Only after Vassili and I (and earlier in the year Len Lutomski) left, and > not without struggle. i.e. Cincom is holding expenses flat while > revenues > are extremely healthy. This was the major reason behind my leaving, > i.e. I > had no confidence that CIncom was willing to put in the necessary > investment > for VW to flourish. > > On 3/26/07, Charles A. Monteiro <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> they hired Travis, can't be on too much of a "shoestring" budget :) >> >> On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:06:49 -0500, Travis Griggs <[hidden email]> >> wrote: >> >> > On Mar 23, 2007, at 12:39, Rich Demers wrote: >> > >> >> I'd be happy just to know that Cincom is adequately funding >> >> Smalltalk product engineering and marketing. The impression I've >> >> gotten to date is that they are working on a shoestring budget. >> > >> > But our shoestrings all have cool balloons on them. :) >> > >> > -- >> > Travis Griggs >> > Objologist >> > "Dying men never wish they'd spent more time at the office" >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ >> >> -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ |
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In reply to this post by Thomas Gagné-2
Thomas Gagné wrote:
> The "rename" function should either be removed (I can rename a function > easily without it by creating new and remove) or fixed so that it > doesn't change an entire image's reference to my method. > This is a joke -right? Renaming is one of the cheapest refactorings that returns a lot of value-for-money. I don't understand why we would request to remove certain refactorings from our tool set... > If I really want to rename something, it's very likely I only want to > change code that's local to the method being renamed--same class, same > package, same parcel and finally global. > I think that is a bug (or deficiency) in the refactoring framework. Usually the RB limits operations to the BrowserEnvironment associated with the current browser. In the case of refactorings it punts and decides to go for global scope (even when browsing in a limited scope). Anyway, you can work around this by temporarily turning 'show refactoring changes' on in the settings, so you can remove entries prior to accepting them. R - |
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In reply to this post by Alan Knight-2
the fact that Eliot has made such a statement, the fact that there are
others in engineering that have shared similar concerns with me and which shall remain un-named, is of great concern to me and I suspect others. Frankly, the fact that other customers have also shared with me that they feel a certain disconnect with what they need and what is delivered by Cincom Smalltalk is upsetting. On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:19:50 -0500, Alan Knight <[hidden email]> wrote: > To date, all of the new hires within product development proper are > replacements for existing staff members, and so don't represent any > increase in spending. Len Lutomski left last year, and was replaced by > Travis Griggs. John Sarkela has moved into the VM lead role after > Eliot's departure and Andres Valloud was hired to fill the vacant > position. Similarly, Travis has moved into the Tools lead role after > Vassili's departure, and the vacant position will be filled by Michael > Lucas-Smith. We are also in the process of hiring for an additional > support position as a replacement for two vacant positions in India > support. Outside of engineering we hired Arden Thomas as a field > engineer last year, which was a new position. > > I don't think that you could reasonably describe our budget as > "shoestring", given the number of people involved. On the other hand, > there is a great deal of product to cover, and we could certainly use > more staff, an opinion that has been repeatedly expressed to management. > Personally, I think we need at least one full-time position just to keep > up with this e-mail thread. > > I'll also note, though it is perhaps of limited interest to those > outside Cincom, that there are some significant re-organizations going > on. Within engineering, we are trying to organize development in a more > agile fashion, re-allocating resources, and generally trying to deal > with some of the organizational hurdles we've faced in the past. In > terms of corporate organization, our previous director, Ron Weeks, is > shortly moving into a new position as Director of Business Planning and > Research, and will be replaced by Dave Schwarber, who will now head up > almost all of Cincom's engineering operations. We're hopeful that these > changes will be very positive and allow us to move forward better than > we have in the past. > > At 02:17 PM 3/26/2007, Eliot Miranda wrote: >> Only after Vassili and I (and earlier in the year Len Lutomski) left, >> and not without struggle. i.e. Cincom is holding expenses flat while >> revenues are extremely healthy. This was the major reason behind my >> leaving, i.e. I had no confidence that CIncom was willing to put in the >> necessary investment for VW to flourish. >> >> On 3/26/07, Charles A. Monteiro >> <<mailto:[hidden email]>[hidden email]> wrote: >> they hired Travis, can't be on too much of a "shoestring" budget :) >> >> On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:06:49 -0500, Travis Griggs >> <<mailto:[hidden email]>[hidden email]> >> wrote: >> >>> On Mar 23, 2007, at 12:39, Rich Demers wrote: >>> >>>> I'd be happy just to know that Cincom is adequately funding >>>> Smalltalk product engineering and marketing. The impression I've >>>> gotten to date is that they are working on a shoestring budget. >>> >>> But our shoestrings all have cool balloons on them. :) >>> >>> -- >>> Travis Griggs >>> Objologist >>> "Dying men never wish they'd spent more time at the office" >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: >> <http://www.opera.com/mail/>http://www.opera.com/mail/ >> > > -- > Alan Knight [|], Cincom Smalltalk Development > [hidden email] > [hidden email] > http://www.cincom.com/smalltalk > > "The Static Typing Philosophy: Make it fast. Make it right. Make it > run." - Niall Ross -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ |
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In reply to this post by Reinout Heeck-2
Reinout Heeck (27.03. 14:25):
> >If I really want to rename something, it's very likely I only want to > >change code that's local to the method being renamed--same class, same > >package, same parcel and finally global. > > > I think that is a bug (or deficiency) in the refactoring framework. Dolphin has this: rename within Class, Hierarchy, Package, and Global. Very useful. Mostly I get around with Class based renamings, sometimes I use Package scope, I've not yet needed the remaining choices. s. |
Re: New Topic To Beat Into the Ground
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In reply to this post by Thomas Brodt
Thomas and all,
I personally think that tool such as that should stay. If nothing else it helps to make sure that connectivity to the particular database is available from inside VW. Also we are talking about one class - Comparing to RB it is nothing There are two classes and two pkgs. published into the public repository which do address the shortcomings of the original AdHoq tool. NewAdhocQueryTool pkg. have two classes- that have history, can break out from loading huge result set, allows one to copy table, row column, cell of the result set, etc.. And another (sorry do not remember authors) which replaces the table view with data set view, history, etc. If someone would be so kind to merge those two together... --Mark Thomas Brodt wrote: > Well we use the AdHocSQL sometimes, as it has advantages over external tools: the data has been treated by the EXDI machinery, which > sometimes makes the difference. > Only after some extensions and improvements, though... (like more appropriate column widths, sql history) > > Thomas > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Thomas Gagné [mailto:[hidden email]] >>Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 10:01 PM >>To: vwnc >>Subject: Re: New Topic To Beat Into the Ground >> >>We use the Ad Hoc SQL tool for testing DB connections. We >>currently use >>Sybase as well, but have played with ODBC lately. Since our >>application >>isn't yet ODBC-aware, the Ad Hoc tool is a great way to see if we've >>gotten the connection parameters configured correctly. Beyond that we >>don't use it either. >> >>Sattler, Thomas (IT) wrote: >> >>>Personally, I like spawn. >>> >>>I'd agree to get rid of Hardcopy, though. >>> >>>And, while we're on the subject, let's either upgrade, or eliminate >>>entirely, one of the least-used pieces of VW: the Ad Hoc SQL tool. >> >><snip> >> >>-- >>Visit <http://tggagne.blogspot.com/>,<http://gagne.homedns.org/> or >> <http://gagne.homedns.org/~tgagne/> for more great reading. >> >> >> >> > > > > |
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Hi,
(Travis, you can say that you tapped into some major issue here by the large quantity of people that are answering :) I will try to be useful Most unused items: - All the Package, Class, Method, Protocol menus. They are redundant as it is not intuitive to look on the toolbar for them but rather right click on the corresponding entity... - Find Symbol - I remember I once tried to search for #Sunday and it did not return anything. In the meantime i discovered that you don't have to add the # in front of your symbol for the search to return results, but I still did not really use it. I subscribe to the group of guys who think a good "Find" utility is a priority. Misplaced Items: - I think "Set Undo Count" and "Set Default Namespace" should be in a *Settings* menu. And one *Bonus Idea*: - Let's instrument the navigation in RB and see what are the most used actions - then optimize those. (i.e., currently adding an instance variable and accessors to it requires a lot of clicks and disrupts the flow of of the smalltalker who is moving through code at high development speeds... It would be good if there was a fast way of adding the ivar. For my own needs, I added a new menu which has an entry and shortcut for "Add ivar with accessors" but I am sure that this is not the only action which needs to be optimized.). That was my 2 cents, Have a good day, Mircea. On Mar 27, 2007, at 3:12 PM, Mark Pirogovsky wrote: > Thomas and all, > I personally think that tool such as that should stay. If nothing > else it helps to make sure that connectivity to the particular > database is available from inside VW. Also we are talking about > one class - Comparing to RB it is nothing > > There are two classes and two pkgs. published into the public > repository which do address the shortcomings of the original AdHoq > tool. > > NewAdhocQueryTool pkg. have two classes- that have history, can > break out from loading huge result set, allows one to copy table, > row column, cell of the result set, etc.. And another (sorry do > not remember authors) which replaces the table view with data set > view, history, etc. > > If someone would be so kind to merge those two together... > > --Mark > > Thomas Brodt wrote: >> Well we use the AdHocSQL sometimes, as it has advantages over >> external tools: the data has been treated by the EXDI machinery, >> which >> sometimes makes the difference. >> Only after some extensions and improvements, though... (like more >> appropriate column widths, sql history) >> Thomas >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Thomas Gagné [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: Monday, >>> March 26, 2007 10:01 PM >>> To: vwnc >>> Subject: Re: New Topic To Beat Into the Ground >>> >>> We use the Ad Hoc SQL tool for testing DB connections. We >>> currently use >>> Sybase as well, but have played with ODBC lately. Since our >>> application >>> isn't yet ODBC-aware, the Ad Hoc tool is a great way to see if we've >>> gotten the connection parameters configured correctly. Beyond >>> that we >>> don't use it either. >>> >>> Sattler, Thomas (IT) wrote: >>> >>>> Personally, I like spawn. >>>> >>>> I'd agree to get rid of Hardcopy, though. >>>> >>>> And, while we're on the subject, let's either upgrade, or eliminate >>>> entirely, one of the least-used pieces of VW: the Ad Hoc SQL tool. >>> >>> <snip> >>> >>> -- >>> Visit <http://tggagne.blogspot.com/>,<http://gagne.homedns.org/> or >>> <http://gagne.homedns.org/~tgagne/> for more great reading. >>> >>> >>> >>> > |
Re: New Topic To Beat Into the Ground
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In reply to this post by Travis Griggs-3
Travis
I don't think the issue is whether features are used, but rather how well the use of them is understood or how well the feature works. For example, I suspect that few people use the Class probe commands or the 'Add msg rcvd probe' because they don't understand the value of their use. By the way, I use Undo and would like it back. It is great for swapping text. Terry =========================================================== Terry Raymond Smalltalk Professional Debug Package Crafted Smalltalk 80 Lazywood Ln. Tiverton, RI 02878 (401) 624-4517 [hidden email] <http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com> =========================================================== |
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I think that "Undo" is still available as a shortcut <ctrl-Z> (at least
in VW 7.3.1), but for unknown reason they took it out from the pop up menu. I think they did it because it did undo in the ST fashion as opposed to let's say Win32 style. Terry Raymond wrote: > Travis > > I don't think the issue is whether features are used, but > rather how well the use of them is understood or how well > the feature works. For example, I suspect that few people > use the Class probe commands or the 'Add msg rcvd probe' > because they don't understand the value of their use. > > By the way, I use Undo and would like it back. It is great > for swapping text. > > Terry > > =========================================================== > Terry Raymond Smalltalk Professional Debug Package > Crafted Smalltalk > 80 Lazywood Ln. > Tiverton, RI 02878 > (401) 624-4517 [hidden email] > <http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com> > =========================================================== > > > > |
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In reply to this post by OCIT
How can you bank your business on Cincom Smalltalk? Look at our
delivery record since 1999. We've delivered major new functionality, and delivered on a regular basis. The loss of an engineer - without regard to who it was - is not the end of the world. To quote Charles De Gaulle: "The graveyards are full of indispensable men" The best we can do (and have done) is to hire new staff (incidentally, new staff with a fresh perspective and a very enthusiastic outlook) and move on. Yes, individual engineers here gripe about "corporate" from time to time - what company exists where that doesn't happen? The fact of the matter is, Cincom supports Smalltalk development by having a good sized engineering and support staff on hand, and by releasing new products on a regular basis. As to there being a disconnect between customers and Cincom development: We feel your pain, and that's why our roadmap: http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/cincom/blogView?content=roadmap has changed. It shorter, and focused on what we believe to be crucial aspects that must be addressed immediately. As we address those, we'll update the roadmap and move to the next set of high priorities. I ask for feedback regularly - on my blog, on the surveys I post, and in person. Suzanne Fortman has been on a world tour, visiting customers everywhere we have them. As Alan mentioned in a post earlier, we are in the process of transforming our engineering development and delivery process, in order to become more responsive. If we aren't doing that to your satisfaction, then please - let me know: [hidden email] Heck, if you want a platform to pepper me with questions, I invite you to come on the podcast: http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/cincom/blogView?content=podcasts as a guest. I'll cheerfully answer any questions you have, so long as they are polite :) At 09:24 AM 3/27/2007, you wrote: >the fact that was actually your major reason for leaving is very upsetting >to me. If the engineering staff is not supported by its own company, if >said company does not put faith in an organization (Cincom Smalltalk) that >has more than held its own, by re-investing a percentage of the profits so >that folks are adequately compensated and frankly also by adding of more >personnel then what faith can I have as a customer in the long term >viability of VisualWorks?. > >How can I bank my business, our company's future on Cincom Smalltalk? > >This is an entirely untenable situation > >-Charles > >On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 13:17:57 -0500, Eliot Miranda ><[hidden email]> wrote: > >>Only after Vassili and I (and earlier in the year Len Lutomski) left, and >>not without struggle. i.e. Cincom is holding expenses flat while >>revenues >>are extremely healthy. This was the major reason behind my leaving, >>i.e. I >>had no confidence that CIncom was willing to put in the necessary >>investment >>for VW to flourish. >> >>On 3/26/07, Charles A. Monteiro <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>>they hired Travis, can't be on too much of a "shoestring" budget :) >>> >>>On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:06:49 -0500, Travis Griggs <[hidden email]> >>>wrote: >>> >>> > On Mar 23, 2007, at 12:39, Rich Demers wrote: >>> > >>> >> I'd be happy just to know that Cincom is adequately funding >>> >> Smalltalk product engineering and marketing. The impression I've >>> >> gotten to date is that they are working on a shoestring budget. >>> > >>> > But our shoestrings all have cool balloons on them. :) >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Travis Griggs >>> > Objologist >>> > "Dying men never wish they'd spent more time at the office" >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>-- >>>Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ >>> > > > >-- >Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ <Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library> James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView |
Re: New Topic To Beat Into the Ground
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In reply to this post by Travis Griggs-3
I would agree that 'Find' needs to be cleaned up. I've seen too many new users struggle with how it works or doesn't. BTW, I just recently discovered F3 for doing 'Find again', which is extremely useful, but not obvious.
I also agree that Create New View button does not produce obvious result. Views with tabs would be more efficient and obvious. I suggest removing redundant function from main menus. For example under Find there are a lot of choices that also seem to be under Package->Find, Protocol-Find, etc. Let Find menu item handle all finds. Thanks.
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In reply to this post by jarober
On 3/27/07, James Robertson <[hidden email]> wrote: [snip]
Cincom can do a damn sight more than that. - It can grow the engineering organization to a size that is up to te job of maintaining and exending an enterprise-class cross-platform development platform (about double the engineering staff). - it can compensate its engineering staff well to retain them and reward them. It does neither as you well know. |
RE: New Topic To Beat Into the Ground
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Don't mind me asking, but is there much point airing this on the list?
The topic was simple enough, list 4 things you'd want gone from refactoring browser if my memory serves me well :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr3x_RRJdd4 Cheers! -Boris -- +1.604.689.0322 DeepCove Labs Ltd. 4th floor 595 Howe Street Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5 http://tinyurl.com/r7uw4 [hidden email] CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email is intended only for the persons named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender and delete the entire message including any attachments. Thank you. > -----Original Message----- > From: Eliot Miranda [mailto:[hidden email]] > Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 10:29 AM > To: James Robertson > Cc: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: New Topic To Beat Into the Ground > > > > On 3/27/07, James Robertson <[hidden email]> wrote: > [snip] > > > > The best we can do (and have done) is to hire new staff > (incidentally, new staff with a fresh perspective and a very > enthusiastic outlook) and move on. > > > > Cincom can do a damn sight more than that. > - It can grow the engineering organization to a size that is up to te > of maintaining and exending an enterprise-class cross-platform development > platform (about double the engineering staff). > - it can compensate its engineering staff well to retain them and reward > them. > > It does neither as you well know. |
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On Mar 27, 2007, at 10:36, Boris Popov wrote:
Yes, indeed! This thread was about removing stuff, because Less is More. And I trout slapped both Boris and Rich for breaking the rules. I've been remiss (and distracted) from laying the trout down here. Eliot, same for you. You saw the rules. Please play by them, or consider yourself trout slapped. :) -- Travis Griggs Objologist Time and Countertops. They both get used up way too fast. |
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