NuScratch alpha release
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There is a very early, so-alpha-it-will-eat-your-brain release of Scratch running in a 4.4 image.
See http://www.raspberrypi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=66308&p=486462#p486462 tim -- tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Propaganda: a good look |
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Dear Tim,
It can be interesting to merge our efforts. I am developing Phratch (http://car.mines-douai.fr/category/phratch/), and it begin to be really stable. I would like to see it on top of raspberry pi. I hope we can do that together. Cheers, Jannik On Jan 13, 2014, at 7:51 PM, tim Rowledge <[hidden email]> wrote: There is a very early, so-alpha-it-will-eat-your-brain release of Scratch running in a 4.4 image. |
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Hi Jannik,
On 16-01-2014, at 1:28 AM, jannik.laval <[hidden email]> wrote: > It can be interesting to merge our efforts. There’s a big problem with merging much, which is that you have (very reasonably) decided to make a version of BYOB, with all the neat extensions that brings in. I need to make an *exact* Scratch port in order to support the many (actually it seems likely about a million, which is scary) users of current Scratch 1.4 on the Pi. It has to *be* Scratch, not something else. Later, if time and finances permit (start thinking of ways to lobby Eben Upton to keep supporting me!) I can work on extensions to Scratch like BYOB stuff, Enchanting, S4A etc. > I am developing Phratch (http://car.mines-douai.fr/category/phratch/), and it begin to be really stable. I run your system fairly often for comparison purposes. Some very clever work-arounds to the changes from ancient-Morphic to modern Pharo-morphic, and often they help me spot what I need to do for my work. > > I would like to see it on top of raspberry pi. > I hope we can do that together. I’m pretty sure there are some parts we will be able to share; the techniques for speeding up the tile dragging and script execution ought to be transferrable eventually. The Pi vm should run your image. SimpleSi’s python sensor-driver code should work, allowing you access to PiFace & Gertduino etc. tim -- tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim When you earnestly believe you can compensate for a lack of skill by doubling your efforts, there's no end to what you can't do |
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Is Phratch incompatible with Scratch? I had assumed that Phratch was "Scratch+" (i.e. backward compatible), and that existing users could use their Scratch projects in Phratch. Is that not the case?
Cheers,
Sean |
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In reply to this post by timrowledge
Hi Tim,
Thank you for your reply. 2014/1/17 tim Rowledge <[hidden email]> Hi Jannik, I understand your point, and that was mine at the beginning of the project.
Phratch v1 is completely compatible with Scratch 1.4. You can try it there: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/job/Phratch/
Now, you are right, Phratch in its second version is less compatible. That is just a current state because I need to clean up some things. If I understand, your future work will be the same as I did or I am doing (integrating BYOB, Enchanting, S4A...).
I am not sure why we would share instead of working together on the same platform. You have knowledge that I don't have and I did a work that you are redoing.
Another question that I asked to me when beginning Phratch: why not just using Scratch2.0 ? It is compatible with Scratch1.4. Please, consider that I would be happy to merge our efforts :)
Jannik When you earnestly believe you can compensate for a lack of skill by doubling your efforts, there's no end to what you can't do ~~Jannik Laval~~ |
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In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris
2014/1/18 Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> tim Rowledge wrote Yes it is backward compatible in the version 1.0 In the version 2.0, I hope to fix it asap.
Jannik
~~Jannik Laval~~ |
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Thank you, this is *very* important. I've been talking Phratch up to Scratch users, and if they can't load their projects, it is a much more complicated decision/conversation.
Cheers,
Sean |
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Issue 121: Make 2.0 Compatible with Scratch http://code.google.com/p/phratch/issues/detail?id=121
Cheers,
Sean |
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Thank you Sean, In the new version it is compatible (you have to load the package PhratchObjStream). It is not compatible with BYOB, I will check. Jannik 2014/1/18 Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> Sean P. DeNigris wrote ~~Jannik Laval~~ |
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Is there a reason not to load it by default? I'm not sure what you mean by this. Will you explain a little more?
Cheers,
Sean |
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In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris
On 17-01-2014, at 3:11 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote: > tim Rowledge wrote >> you have (very reasonably) decided to make a version of BYOB... I need to >> make an *exact* Scratch port in order to support the many... users of >> current Scratch 1.4 > > Is Phratch incompatible with Scratch? I had assumed that Phratch was > "Scratch+" (i.e. backward compatible), and that existing users could use > their Scratch projects in Phratch. Is that not the case? There’s more to compatibility than that direction. I have to keep *exact* file compatibility; no changes to what can be in there, nothing that would stop someone using an old Scratch 1.4 system on a PC from using the file, nothing that wold surprise them. tim -- tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Strange OpCodes: CSF: Charge to NSF |
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In reply to this post by jannik laval
On 17-01-2014, at 11:08 PM, jannik laval <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > I am not sure why we would share instead of working together on the same platform. You have knowledge that I don't have and I did a work that you are redoing. First problem there is that I simply don’t like the UI & tools in Pharo, so I’m not going to use them. That leads to problems with simple sharing due to the divergence between Squeak & Pharo in dealing with fonts etc. Sharing some code will work out ok, I’m sure. > > Another question that I asked to me when beginning Phratch: why not just using Scratch2.0 ? It is compatible with Scratch1.4. Dealing in Scratch 2.0 files is something for the future. Not to mention that as I understand it Scratch is being re-written yet *again* to move away from Flash and towards html5. Or whatever is fashionable and not-Smalltalk this week. Meantime a large number of people want a better Scratch1.4 system for Pi to use for teaching and whatever - so that’s what I have to deliver. tim -- tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Computer possessed? Try DEVICE=C:\EXOR.SYS |
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In reply to this post by timrowledge
How about "export to squeak 1.4"?
-------- Original message -------- From: "tim Rowledge [via Smalltalk]" <[hidden email]> Date: 01/18/2014 1:24 PM (GMT-05:00) To: "Sean P. DeNigris" <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: NuScratch alpha release On 17-01-2014, at 3:11 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote: > tim Rowledge wrote >> you have (very reasonably) decided to make a version of BYOB... I need to >> make an *exact* Scratch port in order to support the many... users of >> current Scratch 1.4 > > Is Phratch incompatible with Scratch? I had assumed that Phratch was > "Scratch+" (i.e. backward compatible), and that existing users could use > their Scratch projects in Phratch. Is that not the case? There’s more to compatibility than that direction. I have to keep *exact* file compatibility; no changes to what can be in there, nothing that would stop someone using an old Scratch 1.4 system on a PC from using the file, nothing that wold surprise them. tim -- tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Strange OpCodes: CSF: Charge to NSF If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
http://forum.world.st/NuScratch-alpha-release-tp4736438p4737778.html
Cheers,
Sean |
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2014/1/18 Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> How about "export to squeak 1.4"? That is this direction I am going. Jannik
~~Jannik Laval~~ |
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In reply to this post by timrowledge
Hi Tim,
2014/1/18 tim Rowledge <[hidden email]>
Ok, That is something I did not consider. Do you think that we can share the core system and make only few specific packages/classes for Squeak/Pharo. I don't know enough Squeak to evaluate the difference there is today.
Again, we have the same goal. Jannik Computer possessed? Try DEVICE=C:\EXOR.SYS ~~Jannik Laval~~ |
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In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris
2014/1/18 Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> jannik laval wrote Just want to clean: the v2 is in dev for now.
There are 2 main Scratch applications: Scratch itself, and BYOB (Build Your Own Block). All the rest is based on them.
They are using 2 different extensions. For now, I can load Scratch files but not BYOB ones. There is not so much work to do. Probably it will be fixed during next week. Cheers, Jannik
~~Jannik Laval~~ |
Re: NuScratch alpha release
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In reply to this post by jannik laval
One issue that is missing from this discussion is licenses. The Scratch
1.4 source code is available under two licenses, as explained here: http://info.scratch.mit.edu/Source_Code In addition, the Scratch trademark imposes additional restrictions even if you select the GPL 2 option. A very important part of the Scratch ecosystem is the ability to upload projects to: http://scratch.mit.edu/ There are already 4.5 million projects there and they can be played using a Java based viewer, downloaded to be used in the Squeak based Scratch 1.4 or in the Flash based Scratch 2.0. So how you can exchange projects with other versions is a very, very big deal for the MIT group. I added a small feature for a client (support for special hardware) and had to use the Scratch Licensed version which can't upload to the site (and the client had to use a different name and say it is "based on Scratch" instead of "is Scratch"). The reason for this is clear: if my client uploaded projects to the site they wouldn't work when downloaded by other Scratch users. Do Phratch and NuScratch use the same license? If not, this shouldn't be hard to fix if they were to be merged. But for just sharing code it doesn't matter. -- Jecel |
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In reply to this post by jannik laval
Phratch is under Scratch Source Code License
It is not possible to upload project. Jannik 2014/1/19 Jecel Assumpcao Jr. <[hidden email]> One issue that is missing from this discussion is licenses. The Scratch ~~Jannik Laval~~ |
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