OLPC eToys!

> On 2006 September 19 17:52, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>> What would be really interesting is if someone could come up with a way
>> to author projects at their native OLPC resolution (1200x900) while
>> viewing them at half that size, that is, scaled by 0.5 in a 600x450
>> window. This is because the actual resolution of the display is 200 dpi,
>> whereas a normal monitor has 100 dpi.
>
> Hmm. I never really tried a resolution outside of the "standard" (1280x960
> etc), but if setting X to non-standard resolution to 1200x900 / 600x450
> works .. if I build a project on the higher resolution and then restart X on  
> lower, and run the project - is that what you have in mind?

>>>> Also, is there a VM preference for testing (3.9 on Linux?)
>> We use the very latest Linux VM, which is 3.9-8 (only available from SVN
>> for now). I did set up a build system, follow the Sugar instructions at
>> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Etoys
>>
>>>   Ideally, the VM should be the one built from SVN repository
>>> http://tinlizzie.org/olpc/sugar/, but 3.9 line of Linux VM is pretty
>>> much identical so far.
>> In fact, it is identical, because it is just pulling the latest from SVN
>>   on checkout.
>
> I plan to test the image for sure over the weekend, whether I manage to build
> the VM is in question :(, as I run KDE and suspect some gnome libraries
> dependencies fight etc, but will try!

> On 2006 September 19 17:52, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>
>>What would be really interesting is if someone could come up with a way
>>to author projects at their native OLPC resolution (1200x900) while
>>viewing them at half that size, that is, scaled by 0.5 in a 600x450
>>window. This is because the actual resolution of the display is 200 dpi,
>>whereas a normal monitor has 100 dpi.
>
>
> Hmm. I never really tried a resolution outside of the "standard" (1280x960
> etc), but if setting X to non-standard resolution to 1200x900 / 600x450
> works .. if I build a project on the higher resolution and then restart X on  
> lower, and run the project - is that what you have in mind?

> Milan Zimmermann wrote:
>> On 2006 September 19 17:52, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>>> What would be really interesting is if someone could come up with a way
>>> to author projects at their native OLPC resolution (1200x900) while
>>> viewing them at half that size, that is, scaled by 0.5 in a 600x450
>>> window. This is because the actual resolution of the display is 200
>>> dpi,
>>> whereas a normal monitor has 100 dpi.
>>
>> Hmm. I never really tried a resolution outside of the "standard"
>> (1280x960 etc), but if setting X to non-standard resolution to
>> 1200x900 / 600x450 works .. if I build a project on the higher
>> resolution and then restart X on  lower, and run the project - is
>> that what you have in mind?
>
> No, I was actually looking for something to simulate the user
> experience of the OLPC display on a regular display. I'd like to have
> a "minification glass" I put on top of the actual 1200x900 Squeak
> project to make its physical size on the monitor be 600x450 pixels.
> For example, I think there are VNC clients that can scale down a
> remote display, that might be one idea to achieve what I want.

>
>>> Of course we also need cool example projects to show off all the stuff
>>> that is accessible for etoys (remember the "Worlds of Squeak" projects
>>> that were in Squeak releases prior to 3.8?).
>>
>> Heh, I use a stretched captured of that "Squeak Rulez" window as my
>> laptop background image when working in the office on my Java
>> contract :)) - generated a few questions, it is a really nice
>> background. That aside, would porting the Worlds of Squeak be of
>> interest?
>
> Maybe - what we want to show is the things that set etoys apart from
> all the other apps that are on the laptop.
>
>>>>> Also, is there a VM preference for testing (3.9 on Linux?)
>>> We use the very latest Linux VM, which is 3.9-8 (only available from
>>> SVN
>>> for now). I did set up a build system, follow the Sugar instructions at
>>> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Etoys
>>>
>>>>   Ideally, the VM should be the one built from SVN repository
>>>> http://tinlizzie.org/olpc/sugar/, but 3.9 line of Linux VM is pretty
>>>> much identical so far.
>>> In fact, it is identical, because it is just pulling the latest from
>>> SVN
>>>   on checkout.
>>
>> I plan to test the image for sure over the weekend, whether I manage
>> to build the VM is in question :(, as I run KDE and suspect some
>> gnome libraries dependencies fight etc, but will try!
>
> You don't need to use that VM, or even Linux.
>
> - Bert -
>
>

> Milan Zimmermann wrote:
>> On 2006 September 19 17:52, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>>
>>> What would be really interesting is if someone could come up with a way
>>> to author projects at their native OLPC resolution (1200x900) while
>>> viewing them at half that size, that is, scaled by 0.5 in a 600x450
>>> window. This is because the actual resolution of the display is 200
>>> dpi,
>>> whereas a normal monitor has 100 dpi.
>>
>>
>> Hmm. I never really tried a resolution outside of the "standard"
>> (1280x960 etc), but if setting X to non-standard resolution to
>> 1200x900 / 600x450 works .. if I build a project on the higher
>> resolution and then restart X on  lower, and run the project - is
>> that what you have in mind?
>
> Working in 1200x900 resolution isn't really the problem.
> IIUC, the problem is having a true picture of the result.
>
> Suppose you manage to set your resolution at 1200x900,
> and merrily author a project on your 19" monitor (for example).
> You'll choose font sizes, box sizes, alignment, etc, based
> on what you see. But when this project is actually run on
> a real OLPC, it'll only be a quarter the size (because the
> screen resolution is 200dpi, not the more typical 100dpi).
> The result may be that some things may be illegible.
>
>

> The audience is kids, their eyes are still new, and built smaller  
> to boot :-)
>
> Test it on a kid, but I doubt you'll have a problem.
>
> Daniel
>
> Yanni Chiu wrote:
>> Milan Zimmermann wrote:
>>> On 2006 September 19 17:52, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>>>
>>>> What would be really interesting is if someone could come up  
>>>> with a way
>>>> to author projects at their native OLPC resolution (1200x900) while
>>>> viewing them at half that size, that is, scaled by 0.5 in a 600x450
>>>> window. This is because the actual resolution of the display is  
>>>> 200 dpi,
>>>> whereas a normal monitor has 100 dpi.
>>>
>>>
>>> Hmm. I never really tried a resolution outside of the  
>>> "standard" (1280x960 etc), but if setting X to non-standard  
>>> resolution to 1200x900 / 600x450 works .. if I build a project on  
>>> the higher resolution and then restart X on  lower, and run the  
>>> project - is that what you have in mind?
>>
>> Working in 1200x900 resolution isn't really the problem.
>> IIUC, the problem is having a true picture of the result.
>>
>> Suppose you manage to set your resolution at 1200x900,
>> and merrily author a project on your 19" monitor (for example).
>> You'll choose font sizes, box sizes, alignment, etc, based
>> on what you see. But when this project is actually run on
>> a real OLPC, it'll only be a quarter the size (because the
>> screen resolution is 200dpi, not the more typical 100dpi).
>> The result may be that some things may be illegible.
>>
>>
>

> Bert Freudenberg skrev:
>> Milan Zimmermann wrote:
>>> On 2006 September 19 17:52, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>>>> What would be really interesting is if someone could come up  
>>>> with a way
>>>> to author projects at their native OLPC resolution (1200x900) while
>>>> viewing them at half that size, that is, scaled by 0.5 in a 600x450
>>>> window. This is because the actual resolution of the display is  
>>>> 200 dpi,
>>>> whereas a normal monitor has 100 dpi.
>>>
>>> Hmm. I never really tried a resolution outside of the  
>>> "standard" (1280x960 etc), but if setting X to non-standard  
>>> resolution to 1200x900 / 600x450 works .. if I build a project on  
>>> the higher resolution and then restart X on  lower, and run the  
>>> project - is that what you have in mind?
>>
>> No, I was actually looking for something to simulate the user  
>> experience of the OLPC display on a regular display. I'd like to  
>> have a "minification glass" I put on top of the actual 1200x900  
>> Squeak project to make its physical size on the monitor be 600x450  
>> pixels. For example, I think there are VNC clients that can scale  
>> down a remote display, that might be one idea to achieve what I want.
> If you click on a project and hold the button down you get a to a  
> menu that let let you enter
> a project active. This is a scaled down version of the project,  
> maybe this can help you.

>Why is it then that kid's text books use much larger fonts than adult's?
>
>- Bert -
>
>Am 20.09.2006 um 16:58 schrieb Daniel Vainsencher:
>
>>The audience is kids, their eyes are still new, and built smaller
>>to boot :-)
>>
>>Test it on a kid, but I doubt you'll have a problem.
>>
>>Daniel
>>
>>Yanni Chiu wrote:
>>>Milan Zimmermann wrote:
>>>>On 2006 September 19 17:52, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>What would be really interesting is if someone could come up
>>>>>with a way
>>>>>to author projects at their native OLPC resolution (1200x900) while
>>>>>viewing them at half that size, that is, scaled by 0.5 in a 600x450
>>>>>window. This is because the actual resolution of the display is
>>>>>200 dpi,
>>>>>whereas a normal monitor has 100 dpi.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Hmm. I never really tried a resolution outside of the
>>>>"standard" (1280x960 etc), but if setting X to non-standard
>>>>resolution to 1200x900 / 600x450 works .. if I build a project on
>>>>the higher resolution and then restart X on  lower, and run the
>>>>project - is that what you have in mind?
>>>
>>>Working in 1200x900 resolution isn't really the problem.
>>>IIUC, the problem is having a true picture of the result.
>>>
>>>Suppose you manage to set your resolution at 1200x900,
>>>and merrily author a project on your 19" monitor (for example).
>>>You'll choose font sizes, box sizes, alignment, etc, based
>>>on what you see. But when this project is actually run on
>>>a real OLPC, it'll only be a quarter the size (because the
>>>screen resolution is 200dpi, not the more typical 100dpi).
>>>The result may be that some things may be illegible.
>>>
>
>
>

>
> >> Of course we also need cool example projects to show off all the stuff
> >> that is accessible for etoys (remember the "Worlds of Squeak" projects
> >> that were in Squeak releases prior to 3.8?).
> >
> > Heh, I use a stretched captured of that "Squeak Rulez" window as my
> > laptop background image when working in the office on my Java contract
> > :)) - generated a few questions, it is a really nice background. That
> > aside, would porting the Worlds of Squeak be of interest?
>
> Maybe - what we want to show is the things that set etoys apart from all
> the other apps that are on the laptop.

>
> Working in 1200x900 resolution isn't really the problem.
> IIUC, the problem is having a true picture of the result.
>
> Suppose you manage to set your resolution at 1200x900,
> and merrily author a project on your 19" monitor (for example).
> You'll choose font sizes, box sizes, alignment, etc, based
> on what you see. But when this project is actually run on
> a real OLPC, it'll only be a quarter the size (because the
> screen resolution is 200dpi, not the more typical 100dpi).
> The result may be that some things may be illegible.

>
> - Bert -
>
> Am 20.09.2006 um 16:58 schrieb Daniel Vainsencher:
> > The audience is kids, their eyes are still new, and built smaller
> > to boot :-)
> >
> > Test it on a kid, but I doubt you'll have a problem.
> >
> > Daniel
> >
> > Yanni Chiu wrote:
> >> Milan Zimmermann wrote:
> >>> On 2006 September 19 17:52, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
> >>>> What would be really interesting is if someone could come up
> >>>> with a way
> >>>> to author projects at their native OLPC resolution (1200x900) while
> >>>> viewing them at half that size, that is, scaled by 0.5 in a 600x450
> >>>> window. This is because the actual resolution of the display is
> >>>> 200 dpi,
> >>>> whereas a normal monitor has 100 dpi.
> >>>
> >>> Hmm. I never really tried a resolution outside of the
> >>> "standard" (1280x960 etc), but if setting X to non-standard
> >>> resolution to 1200x900 / 600x450 works .. if I build a project on
> >>> the higher resolution and then restart X on  lower, and run the
> >>> project - is that what you have in mind?
> >>
> >> Working in 1200x900 resolution isn't really the problem.
> >> IIUC, the problem is having a true picture of the result.
> >>
> >> Suppose you manage to set your resolution at 1200x900,
> >> and merrily author a project on your 19" monitor (for example).
> >> You'll choose font sizes, box sizes, alignment, etc, based
> >> on what you see. But when this project is actually run on
> >> a real OLPC, it'll only be a quarter the size (because the
> >> screen resolution is 200dpi, not the more typical 100dpi).
> >> The result may be that some things may be illegible.

> > What would be really interesting is if someone could come up with a
> > way to author projects at their native OLPC resolution (1200x900)
> > while viewing them at half that size, that is, scaled by 0.5 in a
> > 600x450 window. This is because the actual resolution of the display
> > is 200 dpi, whereas a normal monitor has 100 dpi.
> That should work using a slightly modified WorldWindow - in theory.
> Sadly, WorldWindow as it is is broken, and I don't understand enough of
> it to fix it. If you could get it to work, you could insert a
> TransformMorph with a scale of 0.5 and smoothing between the window and
> its contained PasteUpMorph.
> It's all a bit tricky, but once you get it running, it should be pretty
> usable. I've got it running to the point where I can render a world at
> half scale and open menus on it, but opening windows does not work yet.

> On 2006 September 20 13:12, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
> > I think there are VNC clients that can scale down a remote display, that
> > might be one idea to achieve what I want.
>
> Bert,
>
> As referenced here
>
> http://www.cus.cam.ac.uk/~ssb22/source/vnc-magnification.html
>
> This VNC viewer
>
> http://www.cus.cam.ac.uk/~ssb22/source/vncviewer.exe
>
> has scaling. I could not find a vncviewer on linux that has scaling (and
> failed to set it up so far as in the above article).
>
> However: The vncviewer scaling can be done - I am running the above
> vncviewer on Linux under wine (needs fairly late wine).
>
> I am running Xvnc server at 1200x900, using params:
> :42 -inetd -once -query localhost -geometry 1200x900 -depth 32
> : -alwaysshared
>
> -deferupdate 80
>
> Then running through the vncviewer, and defining scale=1/2. For what it is
> worth, under the 1/2 scale, on my screen, the whole window inside vncviewer
> (not including the black part which is just stretched manually) measures
> 14.8cmx10.5cm - roughly what OLPC is.
>
> I have to say, everything (including Squeak) is fairly unreadable that way,
> but I am not sure if the vnc has any part of making it worst.
>
> Screenshot is attached. - Let me know if it seems of any use to go this
> direction,
>
> Milan

> Bert,
>
> Also, I forgot to say: you probably ment running the VNC server  
> from OLPC
> image, but when I tried to install FrameBuffer into OLPC image  
> (updated) from
> SqueakMap, I receive a MNU "SystemDictionary changes" around
> SMDefaultInstaller>>fileIntoChangesetNamed:fromStream. Not sure if  
> I am
> missing something..
>
> So the screenshot in my last email is scaled VNCViewer against  
> VNCServer run
> from the OS, which is probably not testing what you intended.
>
> Milan
>
> On 2006 September 21 20:37, Milan Zimmermann wrote:
>> On 2006 September 20 13:12, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>>> I think there are VNC clients that can scale down a remote  
>>> display, that
>>> might be one idea to achieve what I want.
>>
>> Bert,
>>
>> As referenced here
>>
>> http://www.cus.cam.ac.uk/~ssb22/source/vnc-magnification.html
>>
>> This VNC viewer
>>
>> http://www.cus.cam.ac.uk/~ssb22/source/vncviewer.exe
>>
>> has scaling. I could not find a vncviewer on linux that has  
>> scaling (and
>> failed to set it up so far as in the above article).
>>
>> However: The vncviewer scaling can be done - I am running the above
>> vncviewer on Linux under wine (needs fairly late wine).
>>
>> I am running Xvnc server at 1200x900, using params:
>> :42 -inetd -once -query localhost -geometry 1200x900 -depth 32
>> : -alwaysshared
>>
>> -deferupdate 80
>>
>> Then running through the vncviewer, and defining scale=1/2. For  
>> what it is
>> worth, under the 1/2 scale, on my screen, the whole window inside  
>> vncviewer
>> (not including the black part which is just stretched manually)  
>> measures
>> 14.8cmx10.5cm - roughly what OLPC is.
>>
>> I have to say, everything (including Squeak) is fairly unreadable  
>> that way,
>> but I am not sure if the vnc has any part of making it worst.
>>
>> Screenshot is attached. - Let me know if it seems of any use to go  
>> this
>> direction,
>>
>> Milan

> On 2006 September 18 12:49, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:
> > Obviously, there are a lot of changes going into this version, so
> > please update the image often (I mean, really often.)
> >
> >    Any comments, suggestions, and bug reports are welcome.
>
> Yoshiki,
>
> I used the latest OLPC Image (updated to today) to build a fairly large
> project, and then run it in the OLPC pluging. Overall, the OLPC image seems
> very good without problems.
>
> The project is quite large (Simulation of Wave moving across Elastic Band:
> on a website here: http://squeakers.ca:9091, last project “Wave
> Simulation”), so I think I tested large pieces of eToys building it. I did
> have one crash (log attached), also the Plugin Image did not auto-update
> and load my exported project, maybe that is expected?
>
> Attached is list of things I found and commented on (OO format), and also
> the crash log.
>
> Milan