Removing Etoys, Morphic and other friends

Hi folks,

I'm neither a proponent nor an opponent of removing Etoys, Morphic, etc.

Instead, I'm wondering what this debate might be about (myth? conspiracy?  
who in squeak-dev knows ;-)

Very recently Damien's Squeak-dev image has shown that if there is demand,  
there comes supply. The same is possibile with Etoys, Morphic, etc. After  
all, Squeak and ingredients are made of software; neither seat belts nor  
batteries are included.

So the one and only questions that I hope remains is this: is someone  
willing to remove Etoys, Morphic, etc such that there be one .image  
without it and one .image in which it is pre-loaded. This is like if the  
same factory outputs new, diversified products: always a great idea and  
always improves the reputation!

And if there is no one who effectively *does* it, let _whatever_it_is_ rot  
in the image-until someone must fix things in order to support her/his own  
stuff. Whether you like it or not, the latter happens anyway.

I firmly believe that this community is not capable of doing anything else.

That's my CHF 0.05

/Klaus

Hi Klaus,

What you say is exactly what we're doing.

My problem is that rotten stuff smells bad.
Squeak used to be better than that.

I've already removed etoys. You can check
http://www.jvuletich.org/Squeak/EToysFreeMorphic/EtoysFreeMorphic.html .
But I  won't work on making it loadable again (I already said why).

I believe the standard image badly needs cleaning.

Cheers,
Juan Vuletich


> Hi folks,
> ...
> And if there is no one who effectively *does* it, let _whatever_it_is_ rot
> in the image-until someone must fix things in order to support her/his own
> stuff. Whether you like it or not, the latter happens anyway.
>
> I firmly believe that this community is not capable of doing anything
> else.

Hello Klaus,

KDW> Instead, I'm wondering what this debate might be about (myth? conspiracy?
KDW> who in squeak-dev knows ;-)

I think this debate is about what me and some (non programming)
friends call "killer arguments", arguments that kill the debate.

I's a strong word and I don't know if it is used elsewhere. It does
_not_ imply an intention to shut up the other side but it might have
that effect. In the context of the debate the killer argument is
valid.


KDW> So the one and only questions that I hope remains is this: is someone
KDW> willing to remove Etoys, Morphic, etc such that there be one .image
KDW> without it and one .image in which it is pre-loaded.

That's oversimplifying because ..

KDW> And if there is no one who effectively *does* it, let _whatever_it_is_ rot
KDW> in the image-until someone must fix things in order to support her/his own
KDW> stuff. Whether you like it or not, the latter happens anyway.

.... a rotting morpic would make that image more or less useless :-)

Best regards,

Herbert                            mailto:[hidden email]

Hi Herbert,

on Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:14:14 +0200, you wrote:
Neither do I, so it's a bit mystical, isn't it ;-)

> It does
> _not_ imply an intention to shut up the other side but it might have
> that effect.

OT: agreed and the consequence is a massive loss of reputation (not that  
we've ever seen so here in squeak-dev, haven't we :|

> In the context of the debate the killer argument is
> valid.

NP and I agree with this your explanation.

Le'me repeat: until someone must fix things in order to support HER/HIS  
own stuff. But yes I have to agree that a rotting morphic would have such  
consequences.

Thanks for taking care.

/Klaus

> Best regards,
>
> Herbert                            mailto:[hidden email]
>
>
>

Hi Juan,

on Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:13:24 +0200, you wrote:
> Hi Klaus,
>
> What you say is exactly what we're doing.

And therefore I hereby proclaim you are the hero of the day!

Not because you do what I was talking about but because you *do* *it*  
regardless of me talking!

> My problem is that rotten stuff smells bad.
> Squeak used to be better than that.

And I very much appreciate your effort.

> I've already removed etoys. You can check
> http://www.jvuletich.org/Squeak/EToysFreeMorphic/EtoysFreeMorphic.html .
> But I  won't work on making it loadable again (I already said why).

Time will come, time will show, who knows who will load it again.

/Klaus

Hi Klaus,

If you're just making fun of me, that's ok. But if you mean this, let
me clarify. What you said: 'let it rot' is what we (the Squeak community)
are doing. What I answer is: This is not good enough. Squeak should not
include rotten stuff. (Maybe SqueakMap could, though.)

>
>> My problem is that rotten stuff smells bad.
>> Squeak used to be better than that.
>
> And I very much appreciate your effort.

Thanks!

>> I've already removed etoys. You can check
>> http://www.jvuletich.org/Squeak/EToysFreeMorphic/EtoysFreeMorphic.html .
>> But I  won't work on making it loadable again (I already said why).
>
> Time will come, time will show, who knows who will load it again.
>
> /Klaus
>

Yeah, who knows.

Cheers,
Juan Vuletich

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:59:14 +0200, Juan wrote:
Believe me: when I write exclamation marks sans smiley then I don't make  
fun of you!

> But if you mean this, let
> me clarify. What you said: 'let it rot' is what we (the Squeak community)
> are doing.

Then you and me would have a subtle difference: I cannot say that we are  
doing it, because that would come close to a contradiction. Or, perhaps we  
mean "we do" in one case and different "we do" in the other case.

Unencrypted I mean: yes, the community lets it rot (it *does* it). And no,  
you attempt to do something against that (you *do* it). Strange words;  
programming is easier ;-)

> What I answer is: This is not good enough. Squeak should not
> include rotten stuff.

Right you are. But whenever I find rot and: [need to use it anyway] then I  
*must* do something.

---------break-----------

Since I firmly believe that almost nobody reads our conversation, let me  
take the opportunity and state the following: Squeak community does not  
lack developer skills. Squeak community lacks managerial skills, badly.  
And, Squeak community does not need organizational skills.

/Klaus

Hi Klaus,

Klaus wrote:
:) That was fun.

>> What I answer is: This is not good enough. Squeak should not
>> include rotten stuff.
>
> Right you are. But whenever I find rot and: [need to use it anyway] then I
> *must* do something.

Yes. I hope you trigger a reaction on somebody with this!

> ---------break-----------
>
> Since I firmly believe that almost nobody reads our conversation, let me
> take the opportunity and state the following: Squeak community does not
> lack developer skills. Squeak community lacks managerial skills, badly.
> And, Squeak community does not need organizational skills.
>
> /Klaus
>

Cheers,
Juan Vuletich

[hidden email] puso en su mail :

> Yes. I hope you trigger a reaction on somebody with this!
Juan:

I read your page and surprise me what you talk about 3.7.

I have from last summer a prototype SqueakLight 3.8.1 , 7.4 mb and 1054
classes.

Is started from regular Squeak3.8-6665-basic ( very different of my current
development), and don't have FFI,Speech, Nebraska, Etoys, Flaps.

It's builded essentially following yours works (and a couple of my tricks).

I don't remember if us talk about this , so I wish you (and others ) know
about this for feedback.



Edgar



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Hi Edgar,

I'm more focused in my Morphic 3.0 project than on keeping my image
updated to the last version.

Thanks anyway.

Cheers,
Juan Vuletich

Hi Klaus, even now is possible to remove Morphic, MVC, eToys etc. from
the newest images and load it back, see KernelImage and RestOfSqueak
package. Everybody can make step from the endless discussions and
contribute with more than several cents :-)

-- Pavel

Hi!

Ok, let's back up a bit. If I got it right it is all about deciding on
one of these three ways forward:

1. Stay as now. Keep eToys in Morphic and just live with it, even though
the principal maintainers of eToys (Michael? Yoshiki? etc) actually tend
to do their work in the Squeakland arena. And even though most with a
clue thinks it is a real mess.

2. Throw out eToys (typically using Juan's code - perhaps not as brutal
though - flaps might be nice to have around IMHO) and just face the fact
that it will at least *initially* not be reloadable back in. Direct
users of eToys to the Squeakland image etc in a more clear way, for
example by adjusting www.squeak.org to be more clear on this. And then
see if anyone steps up making it reloadable, but do not expect it to
happen.

3. Make eToys reloadable (and throw it out), of course, this is the
"best" route. But who will do it? And if noone steps up to do it, is it
okay to pick #2 above instead of #1?


regards, Göran

PS. If I am not mistaken Pavel's code does not make eToys reloadable
with Morphic still being in the image, right? I presume Morphic and
eToys are intertwined. If I am wrong, then hey - that means #3 is
already done and we can all just go for it.

[hidden email] puso en su mail :

> Hi Edgar,
>
> I'm more focused in my Morphic 3.0 project than on keeping my image
> updated to the last version.
>
> Thanks anyway.
>
> Cheers,
> Juan Vuletich
Yes.
It's more productive and important.
You know I always ready for work , don't you ?

Edgar

PD)  And remember Spanish said "Ladran Sancho , señal que cabalgamos "  :=)


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[hidden email] puso en su mail :

> PS. If I am not mistaken Pavel's code does not make eToys reloadable
> with Morphic still being in the image, right? I presume Morphic and
> eToys are intertwined. If I am wrong, then hey - that means #3 is
> already done and we can all just go for it.

Pavel do a quantum leap on shrinking business with his KernelImage.

I repeat here what I said before.

KernellImage with Network , Compression etc (the last what Pavel publish)
should be the stone on the rest of 3.10  building rest.

If the fashion now is doing new sources again, then 3.10 sources should be
of this setup.

But RestOfSqueak needs partitioning or you don't get something different if
apply other  ripping technique (his is better and cleaner).

Speech, Nebraska also should go

Edgar


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Hi Göran,

on Wed, 25 Oct 2006 14:49:09 +0200, you wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Ok, let's back up a bit. If I got it right it is all about deciding on
> one of these three ways forward:
...
>
> 3. Make eToys reloadable (and throw it out), of course, this is the
> "best" route. But who will do it? And if noone steps up to do it, is it
> okay to pick #2 above instead of #1?
...
> PS. If I am not mistaken Pavel's code does not make eToys reloadable
> with Morphic still being in the image, right? I presume Morphic and
> eToys are intertwined. If I am wrong, then hey - that means #3 is
> already done and we can all just go for it.

Well, *this* part of the debate made me "tout" the "conspiracy" question  
in this thread :|

Did you read Pavel's response to this thread. What he says there is, by  
the time of this writing, (computer-) ages long known to the community:  
removable and reloadable Etoys, etc, IN THE ACTUAL 3.9 IMAGE (excuse me  
for the emphasis).

So, how come you still question it? What is it that I don't understand,  
what exactly are the unknown requirements (and who does require)?

/Klaus

Hi Pavel,

on Wed, 25 Oct 2006 22:18:57 +0200, you wrote:
> Klaus wrote:
...
>> I firmly believe that this community is not capable of doing anything  
>> else.
>
> Hi Klaus, even now is possible to remove Morphic, MVC, eToys etc. from
> the newest images and load it back, see KernelImage and RestOfSqueak
> package. Everybody can make step from the endless discussions and
> contribute with more than several cents :-)

See my response to Göran's.

/Klaus

> -- Pavel
>
>

Il giorno gio, 26/10/2006 alle 06.33 +0200, Klaus D. Witzel ha scritto:
>From what I've understood, Pavel has split the 3.9 image in two: a
Kernel image which contains the basic system and a RestOfSqueak that has
everything else. But it seems to me that the RestOfSqueak is as
monolithic as the standard image: you can't reload Morphic only without
loading Etoys, Nebraska etc.

Pavel, am I correct?

        Giovanni

Hi Giovanni,

youre right, the RoS is monolithic package and it's not possible to
load Morphic and don't load eToys with it. But we will remove network,
compression, MC kernel etc. from it because this packages are already
independent. This process is done "from bottom". Removing of Nebraska,
eToys and others should be done "from top" but RoS shows
initialization process of Morphic etc. so it can make removing of this
packages more easy.

I hope that we will be able to convert license of whole KernelImage
code and enable to load all rest "non-free" content from Internet.
That is another important purpose of RoS.

-- Pavel

Pavel Krivanek puso en su mail :

> it's not possible to
> load Morphic and don't load eToys with it.

It's possible, but not easy and not now.

> But we will remove network,
> compression, MC kernel etc. from it because this packages are already
> independent.

Without network, compression and a few more , Kernel is impractical.
Once cleaned, why rip first for loading latter ?
You last should be 3.10 start point and .sources produced for this.
And the loaded Rest of Squeak , ready to run , should become SqueakMinimal.



> load all rest "non-free" content from Internet.
What part is not free ? I hope not endless license thread....

Edgar



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On 10/26/06, Edgar J. De Cleene <[hidden email]> wrote:
You will have the kernel image and the set of basic packages
(compression, network, MC). This packages must be loaded from files.
Then you will have prepared image with this basic packages that will
be able to load RestOfSqueak and other packages. I was talking about
the fact, that the current RoS includes this basic packages too.

> You last should be 3.10 start point and .sources produced for this.
> And the loaded Rest of Squeak , ready to run , should become SqueakMinimal.

No, the starting point for the version 3.10a must be standard 3.9
image. Final version can be the the UI-less image but we firstly have
to prepare full image for it.

> > load all rest "non-free" content from Internet.
> What part is not free ? I hope not endless license thread....

AFIK the problematic part of current license are for example "Export
Law Assurances" that prohibit usage of Squeak by Cuban etc.

-- Pavel