Serious Squeak (other "survey")
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>From: Benoit St-Jean <[hidden email]>
>Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers >list<[hidden email]> >To: The general-purpose Squeak developers >list<[hidden email]> >Subject: Re: Serious Squeak (other "survey") >Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 11:18:32 -0700 (PDT) > >Personally, I do the same things in Dolphin Pro that I >do in Squeak. It's just a bit more pleasant in >Dolphin since my "experiments" have a "more >professionnal" look than they have in Morphic. > But does it have to be this way? Is there some fundamental problem with Morphic that makes it look the way it does? I was under the impression that the reason squeak went with Morphic was because it was a more advanced concept. Is this incorrect? >VisualWorks suffered from the same problem for >years... All our clients had issues with the look and >feel of our product (it was on 2.5). They were >totally pleased with the functionnalities and how easy >we could deliver them modifications and new >functionalities but the GUI really bogged them. It >had that "not really a real Windows UI" kinda >perception that made them even consider other "nicer" >products that didn't even have a tenth of the >functionnalities we had. > >But for most people (in the commercial world), the UI >is the first impression they have of your product and >when it looks like Morphic (i.e. really far from a >Windows XP look and feel), they don't even go further >and see what's "under the hood" only because "it looks >crappy" to them... > And this is a valid way for them to think. Software needs to move forward, not backward. If a package doesn't have a pretty bow, then for most people it doesn't matter *what* is inside, because they aren't going to bother to look. Who would hire some guy with a terrible hair cut, dirty cloths and smells terrible as their CEO (the companies most visable person)? No one. And the software they use is also a reflection of them in a similar way. Having said all that, I am personally not overly concerned about the look of Morphic because seaside makes the best looking pages I have seen. And I think the "fat client" days are on their way out. It's just too painful to fight with client setup issues. If your competitor can sell the same application as you, with the same functionality, but it's web based then you are going to lose. While you are trying to get a new client build to deal with the latest Windows XP patch, they will be adding new features. |
Re: Serious Squeak (other "survey")
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In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
Bill Schwab wrote:
> No argument there, but some of us do things that require meeting > expectations imposed from the outside. To be blunt, I'd expect you > would be glad we would like to do it using Squeak. Absolutely. However ... > At the risk of sounding a bit hostile, Jim Benson "put some damn effort > into it" and was treated horribly IMHO. I know it is not a popular > statement (or at least it wasn't the last time I pointed it out), but > there is still a glass ceiling in terms of affecting Squeak. If you > want people to "put some damn effort" into Squeak, the leaders needs to > "put some damn effort" into reviewing their work. Reject it if you > will, but do not ignore it. ... the "mainstream" cannot necessarily cater to every subgroup. In Jim's case it was pretty clear that this is work that will be interesting for a particular subgroup of the community - people who need 100% Windows looking apps. Jim did a *great* job at this but the simple fact of the matter is that Squeak community is roughly 30/30/30 between Windows, Mac, Unix and only a subset of the 30% windows users really wants Windows looking apps. Meaning that Zurgle might be interesting for (probably less than) 10% of the overall users of Squeak. Personally, I don't see how Jim could have been treated "less horribly" other than the people who care about the native looking stuff to pick it up and help him. That he didn't get much support -to me- is a clear sign that the percentage of people who want Windows look is a lot less than 10%. BTW, I totally understand that this is a circular argument. Squeak is cross-platform which means that a Windows look will never become "standard" which means Squeak will not attract Windows programmers etc. But that's just what Squeak is, we made it that way. And of course we could change it, but then I wouldn't use it. > Please note that I am very comfortable with folks like Andreas having > far more influence than newcomers. I also do not believe there is a > conscious effort to exclude new ideas. However, there appears to be no > need to review and close submissions, so they get ignored vs. rejected > with an explanation. I suspect that many things that have been ignored > would be much harder to actively reject with a reason. I don't think so. I think you're getting confused by the absence of any visible policy for inclusion into the image. It is hard to guess from the grab-bags of stuff that get included why exactly those things ended up in the image and why not others. Personally, I feel that about the *only* thing that had a right to get into the image in the last three Squeak versions was the m17n support. Everything else should have been loadable via SqueakMap. And (again personally speaking) I would have had no problem to actively reject all these other things merely based on the fact that they're not critical and that they should prove their weight in package form after which someone might bring forward an argument why the inclusion is critical. Cheers, - Andreas |
Re: Serious Squeak (other "survey")
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In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
Bill Schwab puso en su mail :
> Edgar, you mentioned Zurgle. My main complaint with Zurgle is that it > went too far, and that it emulates (IMHO) the ugliest thing ever to be > rendered in pixels. I would prefer to see something along the lines of > a simplified win2k appearance, and put the extra time into tabbing, > keyboard focus, and other feel considerations. Those complaints aside, > Zurgle deserves a lot more traction than it has received. > > Bill Bill: Well, I could try to help in resurrect Zurgle (maybe only need a try on 3.9, don't know), only for see how many Squeakers wish this, and as tribute to Jim Benson. And as you have experience, could be nice if send some little list of shortcomings and strong points to focus on. Edgar __________________________________________________ Preguntá. Respondé. Descubrí. Todo lo que querías saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, está en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). ¡Probalo ya! http://www.yahoo.com.ar/respuestas |
UI themes (was Re: Serious Squeak (other "survey"))
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In reply to this post by Andreas.Raab
Am 15.10.2006 um 10:00 schrieb Andreas Raab:
> Bill Schwab wrote: >> At the risk of sounding a bit hostile, Jim Benson "put some damn >> effort >> into it" and was treated horribly IMHO. I know it is not a popular >> statement (or at least it wasn't the last time I pointed it out), but >> there is still a glass ceiling in terms of affecting Squeak. If you >> want people to "put some damn effort" into Squeak, the leaders >> needs to >> "put some damn effort" into reviewing their work. Reject it if you >> will, but do not ignore it. > > ... the "mainstream" cannot necessarily cater to every subgroup. In > Jim's case it was pretty clear that this is work that will be > interesting for a particular subgroup of the community - people who > need 100% Windows looking apps. Jim did a *great* job at this but > the simple fact of the matter is that Squeak community is roughly > 30/30/30 between Windows, Mac, Unix and only a subset of the 30% > windows users really wants Windows looking apps. Meaning that > Zurgle might be interesting for (probably less than) 10% of the > overall users of Squeak. Personally, I don't see how Jim could have > been treated "less horribly" other than the people who care about > the native looking stuff to pick it up and help him. That he didn't > get much support -to me- is a clear sign that the percentage of > people who want Windows look is a lot less than 10%. IIRC Zurgle was not about Windows look but a general skinning framework, no? It was just that grabbing Windows bitmaps was easiest for Jim at the time, but he had a second theme, scifi-ish I think. At the time (1999/2000) several skinning projects were started. I contributed "Fur" (mouse-ish for "Skin"), which in Squeak tradition was about being able to change colors per window (I started with scrollbars, see http://wwwisg.cs.uni-magdeburg.de/~bert/squeak/fur/ fur_prealpha.gif). Others like Jim's or Stephan's were "regular" bitmap themes (http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/1114). None really took off, though. I think a new skinning framework (or resurrecting one of these) would be very worth-while. It *must* have an import capability for some existing themes so we get a decent look early, because the community lacks designers with spare time. I should also mention that in the Sophie project a XUL-based UI skinning framework was developed, and impara's designers put very nice-looking graphics into it. I bet there is a screenshot somewhere ... - Bert - |
Re: Serious Squeak (other "survey")
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In reply to this post by Lord ZealoN
> Benoit St-Jean puso en su mail :
> > > I'd love to see a decent UI in Squeak. > Again and again the same thing. > What is a decent UI ? > Like a Windows app ? > I could' understand this Lemming behavior. > Again for all what think they need this look, go for Zurgle and resurrect > it. > > Edgar > I think, the problem is not only about morphic as is. The problem is a GUI building. Something like Matisse (NetBeans 5), would be great. My idea is use Squeak not only for experiments. Is for app's for users, and users don't like changes. I can't develop a software like gnucash for example, and offer a lesson of 15 hours to teach the interface. First i need a lesson of 50 hours to learn to create this interface. Some people in this list speak about web interface, but, i don't like the web interface, i like the "desktop" interface, because, i don't want thath the user load an explorer to access to the app. Doing all through internet, with an explorer, is an error IMHO. And all the developers are taking this way. If i want to use my app from a PDA (thanks for the minimal link Edgar to try), the PDA is not always connected to internet. Is good to do a web interface? I love an app with her "desktop interface" in my laptop. With or without connected to Internet. Where can i see Zurgle "in action"? I visited the web, but the sceenshots are not there. In response to other mails. Well, toy was'nt a good word. With toy I meant about a look thath not looks profesional. For example, NetBeans look proffesional, Visual Studio looks professional, but squeak not. As other man said, yes, there are proffesional webs writen in smalltalk. But Dolphin or VW is smalltalk too and looks proffesional. In adittion, I spoke about the Squeak look, not the web upon SeaSide. I don'tSqu doubt about the power of eak (I'm sure is terribly powerfull) and I want to use it. I love the philosofy around it but I'm speaking only about the look. I disagree about the logo. The logo is fine for t-shirts, but not in an accounting app. Really you don't like more this? http://www.squeak.org/SqueakFoundation/?action=SWMimeView This logo has a little toy look, with proffesional look, and the symbol of smalltalk. Is perfect. Well, perhaps, I'm not the right man for discuss about squeak, because I'm totally new in this world and all of you has more experience in squeak, but I have ideas for a better squeak from a "normal" developer, and i would like to share it. Much ideas, not time :( -- ::Mi blog:: http://blog.lordzealon.com Linux-User: #370919 |
Re: Serious Squeak (other "survey")
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Am 15.10.2006 um 13:08 schrieb Lord ZealoN:
> I disagree about the logo. The logo is fine for t-shirts, but not in > an accounting app. Err, would you put a Penguin logo on your "accounting app"? Surely, anything with an animal in the logo cannot be used for serious work? IMHO this is complete nonsense. > Really you don't like more this? > http://www.squeak.org/SqueakFoundation/?action=SWMimeView > > This logo has a little toy look, with proffesional look, and the > symbol of smalltalk. Is perfect. Well, the logo was designed by Stephane, and you can use it in your accounting app, if you want. I don't know if the previous board ever voted on this being any sort of "official" logo, I don't actually think so. Same is true for the mouse logo, but it was used well before the foundation even appeared. - Bert - |
[OT] Re: Serious Squeak (other "survey")
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Am 15.10.2006 um 13:43 schrieb Bert Freudenberg:
> Am 15.10.2006 um 13:08 schrieb Lord ZealoN: > >> I disagree about the logo. The logo is fine for t-shirts, but not in >> an accounting app. > > Err, would you put a Penguin logo on your "accounting app"? Surely, > anything with an animal in the logo cannot be used for serious > work? IMHO this is complete nonsense. PS: Am I the only one who finds it mildly ironic someone with a nick name aspiring to be a mighty scifi overlord complaining about non- professional logos? PPS: If this is your real name, I sincerely apologize. You have my deepest sympathy, especially for the funny capitalization. - Bert - |
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In reply to this post by Alan Kay
Alan,
Reportedly, Yehudi Menuhin got a toy violin when he was a toddler. Angrily, he trough it away: "It won't sing!". He must later have been given a better one because he began learning violin seriously at age three. He gave his first performance as a solo violinist at the age of seven, alongside the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra. My point: The word "toy" is often taken as an antonym of "tool". A toy violin, a toy hammer, a toy knife - all useless and should never be given to children. Better give them real instruments and tools. A real violin, even if small. A real hammer. A sharp knife. Squeak should not be a "toy" that may look like the real thing, but isn't. (There are many other meanings of "toy", but I am confident many people share my view when the encounter the word out of context). My ideal for Squeak is that it should act as a resonance box for the user's brain; amplifying and augmenting his or her thoughts just as the body of a violin fills out the performer's intentions. A good user interface bridges the mismatch between the user's mental model and the computer's data model. As in the world of music, Squeak should have many levels. Each should be carefully specified, designed and implemented. The result should permit all levels of personal involvement from the equivalent of a gramophone, through karaoke, to full fledged instruments or even instrument-making. A musician often plays works composed by other people. This requires a common musical notation, a language. An orchestra involves many musicians; their performance coordinated by a maestro. A business needs software that implements policy, aids communication and supports business processes as well as individual workers. Most software used "as is" with room for personal variations everywhere. IMO, all this makes the applaudable cleanup efforts by Marcus, Stephane, and many others not only desirable, but essential for all kinds of Squeak usage (possibly excluding toys that won't sing). Cheers --Trygve At 19:29 14.10.2006, Alan wrote: >The "other" kind of thing that "can be played with" is an "instrument" >(musical, wood or metal shaping, etc.). Instruments are partly "mess >around toys" and partly "serious toys". And Art enters in when one starts >to play on an instrument and around with an instrument. Dan and I had this >in mind when we designed and built Smalltalk. > >Cheers, > >Alan > > > >At 09:57 AM 10/14/2006, Matthew Fulmer wrote: >>On Sat, Oct 14, 2006 at 10:41:52AM +0200, Lord ZealoN wrote: >> > Well, sometimes I send this to the maillist but never get answers. >> > >> > I would like to know your opinion about this. >> > >> > Squeak/Smalltalk is powerful, but for users, or developers in other >> > environments (VB, C, Java etc..), looks like a toy. No games on it, No >> > "famous" app's. All, etoys for kids and a mouse as logo. I think the >> > squeak "world" needs changes, remove pinks colors in the image, and a >> > large etc... >> >>This may get me in trouble, but I will make a bold claim: >> >>Squeak is a toy. That is a good thing. >> >>Squeak is a toy, and therefore it looks like a toy. Aversion to >>toys is (in my not-so-humble opinion) the worst thing that is >>taught to programmers (adults?) today. Playing is the only way >>to make new ideas. One must enjoy playing before they can >>understand the purpose of Squeak. Until they realize "Squeak is >>a Toy, and I am OK with that", they are missing the point. A >>clean object memory, simple syntax, and easy debugging are just >>implementation issues. The point of Squeak is to have fun >>building; after that, everything else falls into place. >> >>Most programmers (myself included) have been brainwashed by >>companies invading the school system with their agenda. That is >>why terrible things like java are allowed to exist. We are told: >> >>- Everyone wants a consistent interface >>- You need complicated software to develop software >>- You need to go through the university system to be a >> programmer >>- Stay away from fast-moving platforms (i.e., the living and >> active ones with real ideas) >>- Don't play with toys; do your work >> >>Alan Kay has asserted that businesses are not very creative and >>are stuck in a rut. He says that the only way to make progress >>is to get un-brainwashed minds (mostly children) into the realm >>of programming. >> >>Most programmers have spent most of their time writing the same >>code over and over again, and have come to believe that that is >>the only way to be productive. Creativity is long-gone. In my >>opinion, overcoming the user interface is the least of our >>problems; much more difficult is to overcome the ingrained >>behavior of sticking with the old, stable, and dead >>platforms that have proliferated the programming world. >> >>Computers are much newer than most people would like to think. >>Like Alan Kay said, it took 150 years after the printing press >>was invented for newspapers to become common. Before that, they >>were only used to do old tasks, like print Bibles. >> >>Computers today are only used (by most people, businesses, and >>programmers) to do old tasks, like communication, documentation, >>and art creation. The new ability that computers have, which is >>hardly used or even acknowledged, is the ability to think. >>Computers and humans together, can think in ways that were >>impossible before. Scientists have some understanding of that >>ability, but, the more programmers solve the task at hand, the >>less we will solve the real problem, which is thinking in a new >>way. >> >>Computer-aided thinking is the problem that Squeak and EToys are >>designed to solve. It is pretty much the only system with that >>goal in mind, and few people even realize that there is a >>problem. This is the real issue that confronts people who are >>not familiar with Squeak: understanding that it solves a real >>problem. The color scheme is not the issue. >> >>Thus I think that looking like a toy is a good thing. However, >>there is always value in meeting the others halfway, so another >>color scheme is a good idea. >> >> > Oficial web need's a change, more modern (smalltalk.org too, looks >> > like an abandoned project, and the news about the projects are old) ), >> > writen in smalltalk. About the logo, I sugggest one time, would be >> > interesting thath Squeak take a logo like squeakfoundation. >> >>Yes, the web person recently left, and his position has not been >>filled yet. >> >> > More developers means (not always but...) more packages, more tools, >> > more code, more ideas. And I think we need change some things to get >> > this. >> >>Indeed. More developers will be able to help with the >>implementation issues, and that is a very good thing. However, >>we must not lose sight of the fact that Squeak is, and must be, a >>toy that encourages exploration first, and practicality second. >> >> > ?What do you think about this? ?How can I/we help with all of this? >> > >> > I'm sure I'm not the only one with this things in her mind. >> > >> > Cheers. >> > -- >> > ::Mi blog:: >> > http://blog.lordzealon.com >> > >> > Linux-User: #370919 >> > >> > >> >>-- >>Matthew Fulmer > -- Trygve Reenskaug mailto: [hidden email] Morgedalsvn. 5A http://heim.ifi.uio.no/~trygver N-0378 Oslo Tel: (+47) 22 49 57 27 Norway |
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In reply to this post by Lord ZealoN
>From: "Lord ZealoN" <[hidden email]>
>Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers >list<[hidden email]> >To: [hidden email] >Subject: Re: Serious Squeak (other "survey") >Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 13:08:38 +0200 > >Some people in this list speak about web interface, but, i don't like >the web interface, i like the "desktop" interface, because, i don't >want thath the user load an explorer to access to the app. > >Doing all through internet, with an explorer, is an error IMHO. And >all the developers are taking this way. > >From who's point of view? Not the developer because it makes life *much* easier for them. They can spend time making the software better instead of worrying about if you have some 3rd party driver they need, etc. etc. Not from the user, web based software can get features/bug fixes/etc. faster and they don't have to go through the trauma of installing something. |
Re: Serious Squeak (other "survey")
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In reply to this post by Lord ZealoN
Edgar,
============================= Well, I could try to help in resurrect Zurgle (maybe only need a try on 3.9, don't know), only for see how many Squeakers wish this, and as tribute to Jim Benson. And as you have experience, could be nice if send some little list of shortcomings and strong points to focus on. ============================= I would be happy to contribute to a formal effort that has some buy-in from the appropriate gurus, such that it will be used once it works and meets the non-interference constraints they will want. I agree with most of Andreas' complaints about Zurgle, but echo Bert's rebuttal that Zurgle is, or should be, about building a framework, not about shoving a winxp (IMHO the ugliest thing MS has done to date) look down mac and *nix users' throats. Please note that I am not the only person saying that the feel of Squeak is far more of a problem than its look, especially given 3.9's very slick "non-client" widgets, which (amplifying points made recently) probably look more familiar to the average user than most of the GUIs of Quick Time and MS' Media Player with default settings (perhaps the nuttiest thing MS has done to date???<g>). I suggest that we form a team for a new skinning project to pick the best from Zurgle, Bob's UI, and the various skinning efforts. The default mode would not be skinned at all, but would be configurable with blocks and/or subclassing, and should probably strive for a Squeak version of the win98/2k era appearance, albeit a little simplified and somewhat platform neutral. In parallel with that, loading skins is an excellent idea, and should be part of the framework from the ground up. Having a code-only default would allow Squeak to run w/o externally supplied art. The framework should also provide optional cleanup for tabbing and mouse-over behavior. I am unclear on whether relevant settings should be global or at the class or even instance/morphic extension level. The result should be able to serve a clerk who never wants to touch a mouse, as well as bleeding edge Squeakers. The latter camp would probably be happy with a global setting or two, and that might be enough, depending on the design. Comments? Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: [hidden email] Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 |
Re: Serious Squeak (other "survey")
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In reply to this post by Lord ZealoN
Tim,
======================================= > No argument there, but some of us do things that require meeting > expectations imposed from the outside. To be blunt, I'd expect you > would be glad we would like to do it using Squeak. Oh absolutely I'd prefer to see people doing it in Squeak, no doubt about that at all. What I dislike intensely is that 'expectations imposed from the outside' bit. The pressure for stultifying, dehumanising unformity is .... well, I dunno. Horrible. ======================================= It's not horrible, it's reality. I am gradually starting to mine a few years worth of data that could not have been collected w/o meeting expectations. I suspect Ron will back me up in saying that the lowly hospital clerk _types_ (they hate taking their hands off of the keyboard because it slows them down) mundane data that can be turned into very valuable information. A clerk complaining that "this thing looks funny" will be told to try it anyway; a clerk saying "this thing is slowing me down because I have keep using the mouse" will have sold the competition's system. That won't mean much to you. You will be able to relate to the following: the Squeak community consists of researchers interested in all aspects of software. Some of us have to meet expections in order to get stuff used to yield data that drives the real work. We are trying to lower some barriers to making that happen. ======================================= > At the risk of sounding a bit hostile, Jim Benson "put some damn > effort > into it" and was treated horribly IMHO. Not by me so far as I recall. I thought it was a valiant effort and I really liked jim's sense of humour too. After all the requests from people for a windows-ish UI suite I thought it was ridiculous that no- one amongst the requestors appeared to want to join in. I loaded it and tried it out but it was more than a bit weird running a windows look on a RISC OS machine! ======================================= I did not understand it either. I felt that Jim made a strategic error by being too detailed, and by emulating the (sorry) UGLY interface of XP (though I understand that he had the art readily available). ======================================= > I know it is not a popular > statement (or at least it wasn't the last time I pointed it out), but > there is still a glass ceiling in terms of affecting Squeak. If you > want people to "put some damn effort" into Squeak, the leaders > needs to > "put some damn effort" into reviewing their work. Reject it if you > will, but do not ignore it. Time, Bill, time. Like most of us I'm swamped most of the time. I get to look at a few of the things I'm interested in and that's it. Mostly I do VM and low level stuff so I look at that and I can't even cover all of that tiny area. Other people claim interest and passion about various aspect of UIs and I can only leave it for them to look at it. I wish I had time to do UI stuff since that is what I originally got my M.Des and IBM fellowship for. ======================================= Fair enough, and thanks for taking my response in the spirit in which it was intended. BTW, my first venture into Squeak hacking was a VM tweak I needed for debugging a deadlock. I altered the stack dump to cover all non-dead threads, and cleaned up some loops that add new lines under erroneous conditions. I might be able to find it for your consideration. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: [hidden email] Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 |
Re[2]: Serious Squeak (other "survey")
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In reply to this post by Tapple Gao
Hello Matthew,
MF> Squeak is a toy. That is a good thing. thanks for reminding us. I may differ in in details but I met smalltalk via VW, they kindly mentioned Squeak in their docs and I haven't touched VW since. Mainly because Squeak is a toy. That was more true in 3.6 time and that does not mean I don't use RB, Shout, eCompletion today. Cheers, Herbert mailto:[hidden email] |
Re: Serious Squeak (other "survey")
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In reply to this post by Lord ZealoN
Andreas,
============================== ... the "mainstream" cannot necessarily cater to every subgroup. In Jim's case it was pretty clear that this is work that will be interesting for a particular subgroup of the community - people who need 100% Windows looking apps. Jim did a *great* job at this but the simple fact of the matter is that Squeak community is roughly 30/30/30 between Windows, Mac, Unix and only a subset of the 30% windows users really wants Windows looking apps. Meaning that Zurgle might be interesting for (probably less than) 10% of the overall users of Squeak. Personally, I don't see how Jim could have been treated "less horribly" other than the people who care about the native looking stuff to pick it up and help him. That he didn't get much support -to me- is a clear sign that the percentage of people who want Windows look is a lot less than 10%. ============================== An alternate approach would be to ask for a streamlined Zurgle that didn't need the external files, was better than the base image, and could be turned into the full Zurgle for those who wanted it. I said more about this in my response to Edgar. ============================== BTW, I totally understand that this is a circular argument. Squeak is cross-platform which means that a Windows look will never become "standard" which means Squeak will not attract Windows programmers etc. But that's just what Squeak is, we made it that way. And of course we could change it, but then I wouldn't use it. ============================== With respect, you are taking an overly narrow view. Squeak can provide multiple policies to serve a wide range of masters. I must also disagree tha the Windows look is crucial to snaring Windows users. Feel is another matter, and Squeak's feel leaves a lot to be desired. It can also be fixed. You might take a look at my MouseOverMadness change set on Mantis as a small down payment. ============================== > Please note that I am very comfortable with folks like Andreas having > far more influence than newcomers. I also do not believe there is a > conscious effort to exclude new ideas. However, there appears to be no > need to review and close submissions, so they get ignored vs. rejected > with an explanation. I suspect that many things that have been ignored > would be much harder to actively reject with a reason. I don't think so. I think you're getting confused by the absence of any visible policy for inclusion into the image. It is hard to guess from the grab-bags of stuff that get included why exactly those things ended up in the image and why not others. Personally, I feel that about the *only* thing that had a right to get into the image in the last three Squeak versions was the m17n support. Everything else should have been loadable via SqueakMap. And (again personally speaking) I would have had no problem to actively reject all these other things merely based on the fact that they're not critical and that they should prove their weight in package form after which someone might bring forward an argument why the inclusion is critical. ============================== I stand by the glass ceiling and the harm it does by discouraging would-be contributors. Otherwise, I see what you are saying, **IF** there is ultimately a way for the packages to get included. Absent that, SqueakMap will turn into a junk yard of conflicting packages and lost opporunities. Squeak needs some configuration management, and inclusion critieria must be wider than "non-critical need not apply." Put another way, who decides what is critical? Critical to what end? As an example, past tense is arguably appropriate for Zurgle, which is a shame. I agree that it is/was too much, but fault the configuration management process (or lack thereof) for failing to negotiate a mutually agreeable solution that could have been with us for years now, not in the way of the hard core Squeaker, and serving the needs of those burdened with demanding customers or other constraints. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: [hidden email] Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 |
RE: Serious Squeak (other "survey")
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In reply to this post by stephane ducasse-2
> > Squeak is a toy. That is a good thing.
> > Come on exploration and dynamism is not equal to toy. > Squeak is a dynamic environment but this is not a toy. > The fact that you interact easily with the objects that > populate it does nto mean that this is a toy. I have to agree with this. I see that ludism should not be an obligatory path to exploration and development. Pedagogy allready knows that it is in the childhod phase, but how can ensure that is the case to scale or map that reasoning to an adult and keep healty? With adulthood as a goal it really makes any sense? Suggestion: perhaps it worth having a look to see if there are trends of infantilization in a biologically adult person. Thinking about this, the most succesful investors use the money in an adult way. I mean here economically self sufficient persons. Childs are money dependant of others (usually parents). I think that thinking more like inverstors do could be helpful here. Regards, Sebastian |
Re: Serious Squeak (other "survey")
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In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
Bill Schwab puso en su mail :
> I would be happy to contribute to a formal effort that has some buy-in > from the appropriate gurus, such that it will be used once it works and > meets the non-interference constraints they will want. I agree with > most of Andreas' complaints about Zurgle, but echo Bert's rebuttal that > Zurgle is, or should be, about building a framework, not about shoving a > winxp (IMHO the ugliest thing MS has done to date) look down mac and > *nix users' throats. > > Please note that I am not the only person saying that the feel of Squeak > is far more of a problem than its look, especially given 3.9's very > slick "non-client" widgets, which (amplifying points made recently) > probably look more familiar to the average user than most of the GUIs of > Quick Time and MS' Media Player with default settings (perhaps the > nuttiest thing MS has done to date???<g>). > > I suggest that we form a team for a new skinning project to pick the > best from Zurgle, Bob's UI, and the various skinning efforts. The > default mode would not be skinned at all, but would be configurable with > blocks and/or subclassing, and should probably strive for a Squeak > version of the win98/2k era appearance, albeit a little simplified and > somewhat platform neutral. > > In parallel with that, loading skins is an excellent idea, and should be > part of the framework from the ground up. Having a code-only default > would allow Squeak to run w/o externally supplied art. > > The framework should also provide optional cleanup for tabbing and > mouse-over behavior. I am unclear on whether relevant settings should > be global or at the class or even instance/morphic extension level. The > result should be able to serve a clerk who never wants to touch a mouse, > as well as bleeding edge Squeakers. The latter camp would probably be > happy with a global setting or two, and that might be enough, depending > on the design. > > Comments? > > Bill Ok . A quick try shows what 3.9 could load from SqueakMap and what some is wrong with some Form (I investigate more this) Also, what StrikeFonts used by Jim could be replaced with ttf. I on Mac and don't have Tahoma.ttf , but from previous experiment have Arial, Comic Sans, Verdana , New York . In parallel I try the zurgle34.sar on my minimal SqueakLight and load with some complaints. Don't work as Jim use .bmp for all picts and I choose the Procustian way of only .jpg/.gif/.png, but some conversion could do the trick. I must quit now, but email private for coordination. And Giusseppe (Lord Z) , I hope you do something... Edgar __________________________________________________ Preguntá. Respondé. Descubrí. Todo lo que querías saber, y lo que ni imaginabas, está en Yahoo! Respuestas (Beta). ¡Probalo ya! http://www.yahoo.com.ar/respuestas |
Re: Serious Squeak (other "survey")
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In reply to this post by Lord ZealoN
> I disagree about the logo. The logo is fine for t-shirts, but not in No, I would not put in. But, forgot the logo. As I can see I'm the only one thath don't like the squeak logo. Cheers. -- ::Mi blog:: http://blog.lordzealon.com Linux-User: #370919 |
Re: [OT] Re: Serious Squeak (other "survey")
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In reply to this post by Lord ZealoN
PS: Am I the only one who finds it mildly ironic someone with a nick I don't know if Lord_ZealoN means something. I have this nick some years old, and if means something with other thing is only casuality. Giuseppe Luigi Punzi is my real name, you can to make fun about it too. But I think my nick/name is not important in this discussion. -- ::Mi blog:: http://blog.lordzealon.com Linux-User: #370919 |
[JFDI] no gurus required (was: Serious Squeak (other "survey"))
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In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K
On Sun, Oct 15, 2006 at 09:46:23AM -0400, Bill Schwab wrote:
> I would be happy to contribute to a formal effort that has some buy-in > from the appropriate gurus, such that it will be used once it works and > meets the non-interference constraints they will want. Bill, You don't need any permission or even support from the gurus. As long as the package you are developing and supporting is released as a separate package outside of the image (which is exactly what should be done for most packages, including Zurgle), you can just go ahead and do it. The only hard part is keeping up with changes to the core image, and maintaining some level of backward compatibility with prior versions of the core image (and by the way, this *is* a fair amount of work, but it's something you have to do regardless). I am not saying this as an abstract statement. I have been doing this for years with the OSProcess/CommandShell packages, and it works just fine. I can change anything I want at any time, without asking permission from anyone. Nothing that I am doing ever delays someone else's release schedule, and as long as I release periodic updates to keep up with the core image, everyone is happy. SqueakMap and SqueakSource make it much easier to do this nowadays, but the basic approach worked fine back in the last millenium. I do hope that you and others will be able to reenergize Zurgle and BobsUI, because I think that these are really worthwhile things. I don't personally have the time or energy to help, but I'll cheer from the sidelines if you can do it. Dave |
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In reply to this post by Lord ZealoN
Well have you downloaded 3.9? All that stuff is gone. >From: "Lord ZealoN" <[hidden email]> >Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers >list<[hidden email]> >To: "The general-purpose Squeak developers >list"<[hidden email]> >Subject: Re: Serious Squeak (other "survey") >Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 19:28:20 +0200 > >> >> > I disagree about the logo. The logo is fine for t-shirts, but not in >> > an accounting app. >> >>Err, would you put a Penguin logo on your "accounting app"? Surely, >>anything with an animal in the logo cannot be used for serious work? >>IMHO this is complete nonsense. >> > >No, I would not put in. But, forgot the logo. As I can see I'm the only one >thath don't like the squeak logo. > >Cheers. >-- >::Mi blog:: >http://blog.lordzealon.com > >Linux-User: #370919 > |
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In reply to this post by Yoshiki Ohshima
Hi All:
2006/10/14, Yoshiki Ohshima <[hidden email]>: > I think Edgar's question is valid. QuickTime for Windows doesn't > look "native" at all, but Windows users seem to be ok with it. (For > that matter, Windows Media Player doesn't look like a Windows app at > all.) > > Current Morphic is not geared toward making these "Title-bar and > menu-bar at top" apps, and I can imagine it can be a problem for > sometime. "Decent UI" is something else. That is why I think Edgar's > question, "what is a decent UI" valid. (And I don't know the answer.) > > -- Yoshiki May be a "decent UI" is today the sort of Web 2.0 UI. In this case the discussion about native Windows, Mac or so could be a waste of time, because seems that the web 2.0 (with lot of javascript) is the "state of the art" UI. Develop such sort of UI is perfectly possible with Squeak and some new alternatives are coming with the work of Diego GD. (See it!). About squeak.org I disagree with Lord.........to me is really useful, I find each thing I need and not see any problem with the site. Cheers. -- Germán S. Arduino http://www.arsol.biz http://www.arsol.net |
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