Smalltalk Argument

Dear all,

after using Smalltalk for several years I developed a passion for the
language (how not to?), and Pharo is just so great to develop with.
So thank you guys for keeping this wonderful project running.

Unfortunately, it is not easy to always point out why Smalltalk
should be employed as "main development language" in a team
or for a project. In the last discussion of this sort I was confronted
with the question "where are we going to get new smalltalk
developers if our startup grows or if you go?". Well, I had no
good answer to that. What would have you answered?

Cheers,

Paulo

Hi Paulo,

That is a really good question and I hope to do it justice.

What if you chose Elixir, Ruby, Closure, Go or Pony or Smalltalk - where would you get developers?

There is some validity to this question as it can be hard to get developers but in Smalltalk’s case there is a heritage that can help with that more so than say others that are too new to have a large community following and of course a reputation.

Smalltalk has a reputation as a very productive environment and on average a better class (pardon the pun) of developers. There is something about Smalltalk developers that in my experience outshines developers from other backgrounds.

Personally I’d see Smalltalk as a draw card to join a company but I’m biased.

While it is important in a startup to attract good developers I would say that ‘good’ developers are more interested in the problem being solved than specifically the language being used. The goal w be to get something out and make revenue. You will most likely re-write at a future point that makes sense using what you have learned anyways.

Of all the languages I have used over 30 years I find Smalltalk the easiest to pick up and run w so should you leave others should be able to continue in your absence.
Besides depending on their position and background you w want them to own the solution and if changing language is part of that then so be it.

That said, if they use Smalltalk for any reasonable amount of time and in anger I’d be surprised if they like you didn’t come to love it.

In a nutshell - language choice is the least of your worries

- James



Sent from my Commodore 64

Hi Paulo,

I think this is not the right question to ask.
The problem is not "Where to find Smalltalk developers?", the problem is
rather
"How much effort does it take to help a good experienced OO developer to
transition to Smalltalk?"

OO developers have to steadily gain and learn new technologies and
frameworks...
So why not Smalltalk?
Those developers that are not willing to learn a new language just
because they consider the trade-offs of not finding a job in that field
that easily, might not be the best choice for your team anyway...

That is my experience... I know more developers missing the "Smalltalk
experience" than those hating Smalltalk once they left a team...

Sebastian


On 2017-10-19 12:04 AM, Paulo R. Dellani wrote:

On 19-10-17 09:04, Paulo R. Dellani wrote:
> Unfortunately, it is not easy to always point out why Smalltalk
> should be employed as "main development language" in a team
> or for a project. In the last discussion of this sort I was confronted
> with the question "where are we going to get new smalltalk
> developers if our startup grows or if you go?". Well, I had no
> good answer to that. What would have you answered?

Regularly I go to the Esug Conference and the Pharo Days, and this year
I had to cancel plans to go to Smalltalks. Those are places where I talk
to smalltalkers, new and experienced. Every year there are good
developers there who are looking for work, as intern, as a contractor or
as an employee. By being there regularly I know who to talk to for
different kinds of jobs, and for recommendations. Once in a while I also
visit RMoD and HPI, to talk with people teaching smalltalk. The Pharo
consortium maintains a list of consultants doing smalltalk work.

For a company dependent on Smalltalk, I'd develop a systematic approach
to ensuring attractiveness to smalltalk developers. Participation in the
Pharo Consortium and presenting at conferences about open source
contributions would be part of that, as might be defining research
topics or summer jobs for students.

Stephan

Nice response

Sent from my Commodore 64

Hello Paulo,

its a problem to get Smalltalkers - simple as it is. I had contacts with
Smalltalkers who wanted to do Smalltalk-"only" jobs - thats impossible
to guarantee in a smaller company and perhaps a mind I would not expect
from Smalltalker.

And the point about "Main Development Language" ... well, the other
developers have also their "beloved" language and it would be a much
better idea to put their "loved" together with your "loved" language.

There are *very* good reason out there to write Windows FAT-Clients in
.NET languages or even Mac/Linux/Windows Clients with Xamarin/Microsoft
tools or even Java-world languages and HTML-Clients with some good
JS-libraries.

You have to have very good reasons (and this is NOT productivity) to
argue against this and tell the other developers, that you develop
superior solutions just because you are doing Smalltalk. This may be
true for very specific libraries (and thats not only Roassal) - not
available in other systems - but in the normal case, they will simply
win (because of the huge amount software written in other languages).

The only Smalltalk technology I found out to be worthwhile fighting for
(because other are not able to offer a similar solution) today is an
object oriented database (e.g. Gemstone/S).

Perhaps the Smalltalk community should concentrate on the idea to make
their technology open/accessable for other languages in an easy way.
This is especially true for database vendors.

Database vendors offering Java, C# and python object support and
Smalltalk as an integrated script language - that could be a very good
argument and a place where Smalltalk can survive.

So, the answer is: don't depend on the language, look for developers
working with more than one language and insert Smalltalk technology
where you *really* get benefit. And the area where Smalltalk is so much
better is getting smaller and smaller these days.


Marten


Am 19.10.2017 um 09:04 schrieb Paulo R. Dellani:

--
Marten Feldtmann

I'm sure this comes up with many less main stream languages - I think there is a strong argument (particularly if we get the GitHub piece operating smoothly) that the language is so simple that what you creating is domain understanding (not language/tools prowess).

Any good developer (particularly a Ruby, Groovy, JS, Objective C or even Python) dev will find Smalltalk a doddle. The complexity is actually in the domain.

We also have a vibrant and active community that has been around a long time and is willing to help as well as lots of free online training materials.

Put another way - you can use a language like Java but if you left, the complexity of build and deployment and understanding the domain is a huge hurdle even though it's s popular language.

I've dipped in and out of Smalltalk throughout my career and a few years ago came back after 10+ years (so had basically forgotten most of it) and was stunned that I was productive in that team after 1 day once they showed me how to inspect items in the UI and navigate to tests.

I've never encountered that on a project before.

Tim

Sent from my iPhone

This is super easy.
- You ask here,
- Second then you try to grab the best open-minded guys you know and
they will use the super cool mooc and learn Pharo in a week or two.
You can tell them that we are not teaching Pharo and still students
good in Java learn it before their internships.
For a good dev it takes really no time to catch up.

Stef

On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 9:04 AM, Paulo R. Dellani <[hidden email]> wrote:

In addition to the excellent replies you have already received I would
like to offer this from Stack Overflow.

In their 2017 Developer Survey,  Smalltalk was the second most loved
language at 67% of developers surveyed. This is a regular occurrence.

Now if you look at the rest of the survey you will see that these are
not people using Smalltalk in their job. Smalltalk doesn't appear
elsewhere in the survey. It isn't on the radar. However, developers love
Smalltalk. Should a shop be open minded enough to use Smalltalk, I do
not think it would be difficult to find people who would love to have
that opportunity.

A good developer can become proficient at Smalltalk in a reasonable
amount of time. In addition to the natural virtues of Smalltalk. You
also have wonderful communities eager and ready to help people join the
family and become productive. The Pharo and Squeak mailing lists are
very friendly, with plenty of extremely knowledgeable programmers ready
to help.

The other nice thing about Smalltalk is that it has history. It is not a
fad. It is not an immature child. Many Smalltalkers have more years
experience in Smalltalk than some of the creators of other languages
have birthdays. There is a vast amount of knowledge and experience in
this community that doesn't exist in most places. Because of this
environment, an experienced programmer can receive wisdom and
understanding and become a better programmer. Do not underestimate the
value of gray beard Smalltalkers.

A person can read the survey and come away thinking that Smalltalk is
irrelevant. It is very relevant. It just isn't as visible as other
languages clamoring for the spotlight. It is mature. It doesn't care to
be the cool kid.

Yes, OSS Smalltalks have some weaknesses that are actively being worked
on. We haven't arrived. But we are well on the journey. And to quote our
favorite prophet Alan Kay, "The best way to predict the future is to
invent it."

Join us. Help invent the future. Use Pharo to invent the future you want.

There are people out there who want to be a part of this. But they have
to pay the bills. Help more people pay the bills with Smalltalk. :)


Jimmie



On 10/19/2017 02:04 AM, Paulo R. Dellani wrote:

Dear Ben, Jimmie, Stephane, Tim, Dimitris, Marten, Davorin, Stephan, Sebastian and James,

thank you for your feedback! Your excellent replies will sure help me with
my "Smalltalk Argument". Obviously the language cannot be employed to
efficiently implement solutions for problems in all domains, but it cannot
simply be ruled out just because it is not so visible as other languages
clamoring for the spotlight, as Jimmie pointed out.

So far I got good results that can talk for themselves thanks to Pharo/Smalltalk.
So the problem here, I believe, is really Smalltalk not being the "cool kid in town",
which leads to a misperception of the language by the non-versed. This can be
certainly be blamed to the lack of a good business oriented OSS Smalltalk years ago,
as Ben guessed, but certainly there are other factors, which are not the scope
of this discussion.

The fact that a good OO-software developer can learn and start to get productive
in Smalltalk in a relatively short amount of time, as pointed out by several of you,
will make a good argument against the concerns of my colleagues here, which
are mainly non-software developers. And surely the willingness to learn a new
language is a sign to be looked at in a candidate, as pointed by you too.

The second most loved language by 67% of developers surveyed cannot simply
be ruled out because of unfounded concerns. (Thanks again for the information,
Jimmie). I think there is really a great potential here, and surely there is a greater
pool of developer candidates to "draw from" than one can initially imagine/see.

Cheers,

Paulo

On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 3:04 PM, Paulo R. Dellani <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear all,

after using Smalltalk for several years I developed a passion for the
language (how not to?), and Pharo is just so great to develop with.
So thank you guys for keeping this wonderful project running.

Unfortunately, it is not easy to always point out why Smalltalk
should be employed as "main development language" in a team
or for a project. In the last discussion of this sort I was confronted
with the question "where are we going to get new smalltalk
developers if our startup grows or if you go?". Well, I had no
good answer to that. What would have you answered?

Cheers,

Paulo

When Smalltalk comes up on reddit, news.ycombinator, etc,

I often see comments "Used Smalltalk 10 years ago, loved it, but not in my day job for years ..."

The guess the lack of a good business oriented OSS Smalltalk years ago may be to blame.

Only supposition, but with the long history of Smalltalker, the pool to draw from may be greater than first apparent.

The main problem may be that these people are not searching for Smalltalk jobs due to the perceived availability of jobs.

There would obviously be some lag, but for longer term planning, talk to your local education providers about introducing Smalltalk as the "best" environment for teaching OO,

and then take the talented students from there.  Consider contacting the academic partners here...

http://consortium.pharo.org/

Another approach depending on the project structure might be to "just" prototype in Smalltalk (because its highly productive to explore a domain with its built in data persistence)

and per Fred Brooks plan to throw it away to cleanly implement in a mainstream language once you "know" what needs to be done.  

I remember seeing one case reported here that the prototype worked so well that the client didn't bother with the second step.

cheers -ben

First of all: I'd say the question itself is not a question but an
excuse. I am not arguing there are enough Smalltalkers or cheap ones.
But I think the question is just a way of saying "we don't want to do it
for reasons that we ourselves cannot really express". If you are a good
developer, learning Smalltalk is easy. If you are a good developer
you've heard the sentence "we've taken the goos parts from x,y,z and
Smalltalk" at least twice a year. So you most likely would like to learn
it anyways.

A shortage of developers doesn't exist. What exists is an unwillingness
of companies to get people trained in a technology. If Smalltalk was
cool and great in their opinion, they wouldn't care. It's that simple.
As a consultant, I've heard that argument so often. Not ferom Startups,
but from insurance companies, Banks or Car manufacturers who spend
millions on useless, endless meetings and stuff instead of just hiring
somebody to teach a couple of developers Smalltalk. It's just a lie: the
shortage of Smalltalk developers is not a problem.

And, to be honest: what is it we actually are better in by using Smalltalk?
Can we build cool looking web apps in extremely short time? No.
Can we build mobile Apps with little effort? No.
Does our Smalltalk ship lots of great libraries for all kinds of things
that are not availabel in similar quality in any other language?
Are we lying when we say we are so extremely over-productive as compared
to other languages?

I know, all that live debugging stuff and such is great and it is much
faster to find & fix a bug in Smalltalk than in any other environment
I've used so far. But that is really only true for business code. When I
need to connect to things or want to build a modern GUI or a web
application with a great look&feel, I am nowhere near productive,
because I simply have to build my own stuff or learn how to use other
external resources. If I want to build something for a mobile device, I
will only hear that somebody somewhere has done it before. No docs, no
proof, no ready-made tool for me.


Shortage of developers is not really the problem. If Smalltalk was as
cool as we like to make ourselves believe, this problem would be
non-existent. If somebody took out their iPad and told an audience: "We
did this in Smalltalk in 40% of the time it would have taken in Swift",
and if that something was a must-have for people, things would be much
easier. But nobody has.


I am absolutely over-exaggerating, because I make my living with an SaaS
product written in Smalltalk (not Pharo). I have lots of fun with
Smalltalk and - as you - am convince that many parts of what we've done
so far would've taken much longer or even be impossible in other
languages. But the advantage was eaten by our extremely steep learning
curve for web technologies and for building something that works almost
as well as tools like Angular or jQuery Mobile.

Smalltalk is cool, and the day somebody shows me something like Google's
flutter in Smalltalk, I am ready to bet a lot on a bright future for
Smalltalk. But until then, I'd say these arguments about productivity
are just us trying to make ourselves believe we're still the top of the
food chain. We've done that for almost thirty years now and still aren't
ready to stop it. But we've been lying to ourselves and still do so.

I don't think there is a point in discussing about the usefulness of a
language using an argument like the number or ready-made developers.
That is just an argument they know you can't win. The real question is
and should be: what is the benefit of using Smalltalk. Our productivity
argument is a lie as soon as we have to build something that uses or
runs on technology that has been invented after 1990.


Okay, shoot ;-)

Joachim


--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel          mailto:[hidden email]
Fliederweg 1                         http://www.objektfabrik.de
D-71640 Ludwigsburg                  http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com
Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0         Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1

I think you have nailed it, Joachim!

The development environment is per se very productive and easy to use
and learn
but at the moment you need something that isn't present in your code
library,
things can get very hard. Well, that's not really new and not only a
problem
that concerns Smalltalk, but with the greater number of developers in
other languages
chances are that someone already wrote some code concerning your needs.

Well I will go back to my coding here now ;-)

Cheers,

Paulo

On 10/20/2017 09:23 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

I do not want to spoil the party (perhaps I've done this already) - but
has anyone done a serious inspection of this number: 67%.

They have interviewed 64000 persons and 67% of the people should "love"
Smalltalk? Come on, that seems to be not possible. Perhaps 67% of the
user already using Smalltalk "love" that.

By the way - the most loved platform is Linux (69%) ...


Marten

Am 20.10.2017 um 09:19 schrieb Paulo R. Dellani:

>
> The second most loved language by 67% of developers surveyed cannot simply
> be ruled out because of unfounded concerns. (Thanks again for the


--
Marten Feldtmann

I also do not believe my eyes:

https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2017#most-loved-dreaded-and-wanted


On 10/20/2017 10:20 AM, Marten Feldtmann wrote:

On 10/20/2017 10:38 AM, Pavel Krivanek wrote:

2017-10-20 10:20 GMT+02:00 Marten Feldtmann <[hidden email]>:

I do not want to spoil the party (perhaps I've done this already) - but
has anyone done a serious inspection of this number: 67%.

They have interviewed 64000 persons and 67% of the people should "love"
Smalltalk? Come on, that seems to be not possible. Perhaps 67% of the
user already using Smalltalk "love" that.

As far as I understand it, the question was different. They asked, if you use Smalltalk, would you like to use it the next year too (or something like that). Then the number makes more sense.

You are right, look at the legend of the graphic:

"% of developers who are developing with the language
or technology and have expressed interest in continuing
to develop with it"

Cheers, Paulo

On 20-10-17 09:23, [hidden email] wrote:

> And, to be honest: what is it we actually are better in by using Smalltalk?

Making software that stays maintainable. It might be survivor bias, but
smalltalk systems continue to be maintained by far smaller groups of
developers than competing technologies.

Stephan