Smalltalk Argument

From: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 8:14 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

From: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 8:14 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

From: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 8:54 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

Well all languages have well designed and badly designed libraries , in Pharo you dont even have to look hard just take a look at Morph and Object class and awe at all those irrelevant methods trying to cram in features you will probably never use. Especially my experience with Morphic has been as nightmarish as my experience with MFC. And MFC is a C++ library and made by Microsoft. On the other hand QT is a brilliantly designed GUI API (again for C++) and dont even get me started on DELPHI libraries which to this day I consider top when it comes to OO libraries. together with its IDE (but I never liked its language). 

Andrew,

Am 26.10.17 um 00:46 schrieb Andrew Glynn:

There’s other questions that are relevant to me:

I am glad you opened your words with this sentence. Other peoples' mileages may vary a lot.

 

> Do I give a f*** about cool looking web apps?  No, I don’t use web apps if in any way I can avoid it.

 

Some people can't. I can't. I am making my living with a web based application. And I like it.

 

> Do I give a f*** about mobile apps?  No, the screen’s too small to read anything longer than a twit, or anyone with anything worthwhile to say.>

So you are in the lucky position that neither mobile nor web nor integration matters to you or you have enough resources to do all that stuff yourself. I am envyous. I need to build web pages and people ask me whether we can ship an iPhone App. I do customer-facing stuff and sex sells much more than we like to think.

Your comments on the crappiness of libs in other languages is a great fit for Smalltalk. Not invented here, therefor rubbish. We came a long way with this way of thinking. But these rubbish makers dance circles around us while we try to do our first hello world for an iPad. They laugh at us when we try to reinvent MVC on top of Seaside (although MVC is closesly related to Smalltalk). Because they are back home and watch Netflix while we debug our homegrown base libraries that are, of course, much better than theirs because they are written in Smalltalk.

I am not arguing that maintaining Smalltalk code is far superior to most technolgies out there. But depending on the needs of our projects we have to learn and use those crappy technologies to accomplish what they offer. Because, sometimes (especially if you have to pay bills), an existing library with flaws is better than none.

So if I have to use Javascript or C# or Dart or Swift to do the frontend part of my system, is there still much benefit in using these together with Smalltalk? Or is there - at least from a manager's point of view - not a reasonable amount of sense in choosing the frontend technology also for the logic and compensate the loss in productivity with a gain in avoided complexity?

Your answer delivers a lot of food for thought, but I don't buy all of it. And I don't expect you to buy all of mine ;-)


Joachim

 

 

Do I give a f*** about the number of libraries in other languages?  No, because most of them are crap in every language I’ve had to work in, and the base languages are crap so they have to keep changing radically, and libraries and frameworks therefore also have to and never get any better. The few that are worthwhile I can almost always use from Smalltalk without a problem (read, Blender, ACT-R and Synapse, since every other library/framework I’ve used outside Smalltalk has been a waste of time). 

 

Do I give a f*** about implementing a complex piece of machine learning software in 22 hours, compared to 3 months for the Java version?  Well, actually yes, I do, because that was 3 months of my life down the toilet for something that is too slow to be useful in Java.

 

Any argument depends on your priorities. I’ve written tons of web apps, because I needed to get paid.  I’ve written better shitty mobile apps than the average shitty mobile apps.  However, I’m not going to do any of that any longer in crap that never improves, because after 26 years the irritability it produces is more than it’s worth. 

 

A few weeks ago, a recruiter that specializes in Smalltalk called me about a job, although they were well aware I live 1500 miles away from the city I lived in when I had worked through them, to see if I’d be willing to move back there for a job.  That sounds like another ‘there aren’t enough Smalltalk developers”, but it wasn’t, because the job wasn’t writing Smalltalk.  It was writing Java.

 

The person hiring, though, wouldn’t look at anyone who didn’t write Smalltalk, because “people who grew up with Java don’t know how to write code”.  I don’t agree with that, I’ve known a (very few) good Java developers.  I would say, though, that I’ve known far more incompetent ones than good ones, and I can’t think of any incompetent Smalltalk developers off the top of my head. 

 

Nor have I ever heard a developer in Smalltalk, or Haskell, or LISP, or even C, complain about how hard maintaining state is or coming up with various hacks to avoid it, which seems to be the main point of every JavaScript based ‘technology’.  An application is by definition a state-machine, which implies plenty about JS developers on the whole.

 

If you’re a good developer you can write good code in (nearly) anything.  My question then is why would you want to write in crap?  The better question is why aren’t there more good developers in any language?

 

Every project I have been able to do in Smalltalk, though, has had one thing in common, the “shit has to work”.  Companies do use it, in fact I could name 4 large enterprises I’ve worked for who’ve written their own dialects, and they all use it only when “shit has to work”.  They know it’s more productive, they also know using it for more things would increase the availability of Smalltalk developers. 

 

Why do they not do it?  One reason, though it takes a while to recognize it, because management doesn’t admit even to themselves why they do it, or not very often.  Being inefficient, as long as it doesn’t ‘really’ matter, is an advantage to large enterprises because they have resources smaller competitors don’t. 

 

Why don’t their competitors do it?  Because they can’t see past an hourly rate, what’s fashionable, or just new, or because their customers can’t.  Put more generally, average stupidity that isn’t corrected by the market.  Fashion affects smaller companies more than larger ones, because they can’t afford a few customers walking away because they wanted an app in Electron, even if they can’t give any relevant reason for wanting it, and even the samples on the Electron site don’t work. 

 

Enterprises can, and do use Smalltalk when it matters.  When it doesn’t, it’s to their advantage to promote things that are inefficient, buggy and unreliable.

 

Cost is relevant, but not in the simple way people look at things.  A crucial but rarely mentioned perspective on its relevance is that while Java based software runs TV set top boxes, Smalltalk based software runs things like medical equipment, automated defense systems, tanks, etc.  Cost becomes largely irrelevant when ‘shit has to work’. 

 

Productivity is primarily relevant to less talented developers, in an inversely sense, since unproductive environments and attitudes have a leveling tendency in general, and more specifically make accomplishing what the less talented are capable of in any environment sufficiently laborious for them to have a role.  Capability in Smalltalk, as implied by the person hiring for the Java role I mentioned, is a fairly decent means of judging whether someone is a so-so developer or a good one.

 

The productivity argument is realistically only relevant in the context of an already higher hourly cost.  Given that it is relevant at that point, companies that know Smalltalk is more productive would use it outside things that have to be 100%, if their own productivity were relevant to the same degree that competitors’ productivity is inversely relevant.

 

All these ways of looking at it are contingent perspectives though.  Yes, if the number of libraries is relevant to you, Smalltalk is less attractive, but that’s only a contingent phenomenon based on the relative popularity of Java and JavaScript, as a result it can’t be used as explanatory for that popularity.  All the ways of looking at it that are fully determinate are determinate via contingencies of that kind, which for the most part are precisely the other perspectives, including productivity, cost, availability of developers, etc.  None of them is in itself anything but a result of the others. 

 

If availability of developers is contingent on popularity (and further, popularity contingent on industry attitudes), to use an example already mentioned in Joachim’s post, then his simultaneous posit of library availability is if anything more contingent on the same popularity, so positing it as a cause and not a result, or merely a correlate, of popularity is incoherent.  We can go one step further, and demonstrate that even when large enterprises make something that works reliably available, they fail to promote and support it, which destroys the market for reliable tooling by simultaneously owning it while not promoting it, something IBM is particularly good at.  But IBM can’t (and if they can’t, neither can any other company) operate that way without the tacit agreement of the industry. 

 

To understand it in a more general way, software development has to be looked at in the context where it occurs, and how it’s determined to a large degree by that context, with a specific difference.  That difference is itself implicit in the context, i.e. capitalism, but only purely effective in software development. It’s a result of virtualization as an implicit goal of capitalism, and the disruptions implicit in the virtual but so far only realized completely in software.  In terms of that understanding, the analysis of virtualization and disruption as inherent to capitalism is better accomplished in Kapital than in any more recent work.

 

Or you can simply decide, as I’ve done recently, that working in ways and with tools that prevent doing good work in a reasonable timeframe isn’t worthwhile to you, no matter how popular those ways and tools might be, or what the posited reasons are, since at the end popularity is only insofar as it already is.  What those tools and methods are depends to a degree on your priorities, but if developers are engineers those priorities can’t be completely arbitrary.  Engineers are defined by their ability to make things work.

 

Software as virtual is inherently disruptive, and the software industry disrupts itself too often and too easily to build on anything. A further disruption caused by developers, as engineers, refusing to work with crap that doesn’t, i.e. insisting on being engineers, while in itself merely an aggravation of the disruptive tendencies, might have an inverse result.

 

Using a stable core of technologies as the basis for a more volatile set of products, in the way nearly every other industry does, is the best means we know of to build things both flexibly and reasonably efficiently.  The computer hardware industry is the extreme example of this, while the software industry is the extreme contradiction.

 

From: Pharo-users [hidden email] on behalf of David Mason [hidden email]
Reply-To: Any question about pharo is welcome [hidden email]
Date: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 at 11:52 AM
To: Any question about pharo is welcome [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

 

PharoJS is working to give you that mobile app/browser app experience.  As with others, we're not there yet, but getting there.  See http://pharojs.org

 

The 67% loved means that 67% of people using Smalltalk (or perhaps have ever used it) want to continue - so it's presumably a high percentage of a smallish number of people.

 

On 20 October 2017 at 03:23, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

First of all: I'd say the question itself is not a question but an excuse. I am not arguing there are enough Smalltalkers or cheap ones. But I think the question is just a way of saying "we don't want to do it for reasons that we ourselves cannot really express". If you are a good developer, learning Smalltalk is easy. If you are a good developer you've heard the sentence "we've taken the goos parts from x,y,z and Smalltalk" at least twice a year. So you most likely would like to learn it anyways.

A shortage of developers doesn't exist. What exists is an unwillingness of companies to get people trained in a technology. If Smalltalk was cool and great in their opinion, they wouldn't care. It's that simple. As a consultant, I've heard that argument so often. Not ferom Startups, but from insurance companies, Banks or Car manufacturers who spend millions on useless, endless meetings and stuff instead of just hiring somebody to teach a couple of developers Smalltalk. It's just a lie: the shortage of Smalltalk developers is not a problem.

And, to be honest: what is it we actually are better in by using Smalltalk?
Can we build cool looking web apps in extremely short time? No.
Can we build mobile Apps with little effort? No.
Does our Smalltalk ship lots of great libraries for all kinds of things that are not availabel in similar quality in any other language?
Are we lying when we say we are so extremely over-productive as compared to other languages?

I know, all that live debugging stuff and such is great and it is much faster to find & fix a bug in Smalltalk than in any other environment I've used so far. But that is really only true for business code. When I need to connect to things or want to build a modern GUI or a web application with a great look&feel, I am nowhere near productive, because I simply have to build my own stuff or learn how to use other external resources. If I want to build something for a mobile device, I will only hear that somebody somewhere has done it before. No docs, no proof, no ready-made tool for me.


Shortage of developers is not really the problem. If Smalltalk was as cool as we like to make ourselves believe, this problem would be non-existent. If somebody took out their iPad and told an audience: "We did this in Smalltalk in 40% of the time it would have taken in Swift", and if that something was a must-have for people, things would be much easier. But nobody has.


I am absolutely over-exaggerating, because I make my living with an SaaS product written in Smalltalk (not Pharo). I have lots of fun with Smalltalk and - as you - am convince that many parts of what we've done so far would've taken much longer or even be impossible in other languages. But the advantage was eaten by our extremely steep learning curve for web technologies and for building something that works almost as well as tools like Angular or jQuery Mobile.

Smalltalk is cool, and the day somebody shows me something like Google's flutter in Smalltalk, I am ready to bet a lot on a bright future for Smalltalk. But until then, I'd say these arguments about productivity are just us trying to make ourselves believe we're still the top of the food chain. We've done that for almost thirty years now and still aren't ready to stop it. But we've been lying to ourselves and still do so.

I don't think there is a point in discussing about the usefulness of a language using an argument like the number or ready-made developers. That is just an argument they know you can't win. The real question is and should be: what is the benefit of using Smalltalk. Our productivity argument is a lie as soon as we have to build something that uses or runs on technology that has been invented after 1990.


Okay, shoot ;-)

Joachim


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Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel          [hidden email]

Fliederweg 1                         http://www.objektfabrik.de

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Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0         Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1

From: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 2:19 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

I like that piece a lot, seeing exactly the described situation in large enterprises.

From: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 8:14 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

From: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 8:54 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

Well all languages have well designed and badly designed libraries , in Pharo you dont even have to look hard just take a look at Morph and Object class and awe at all those irrelevant methods trying to cram in features you will probably never use. Especially my experience with Morphic has been as nightmarish as my experience with MFC. And MFC is a C++ library and made by Microsoft. On the other hand QT is a brilliantly designed GUI API (again for C++) and dont even get me started on DELPHI libraries which to this day I consider top when it comes to OO libraries. together with its IDE (but I never liked its language). 

Andrew,

Am 26.10.17 um 00:46 schrieb Andrew Glynn:

There’s other questions that are relevant to me:

I am glad you opened your words with this sentence. Other peoples' mileages may vary a lot.

 

> Do I give a f*** about cool looking web apps?  No, I don’t use web apps if in any way I can avoid it.

 

Some people can't. I can't. I am making my living with a web based application. And I like it.

 

> Do I give a f*** about mobile apps?  No, the screen’s too small to read anything longer than a twit, or anyone with anything worthwhile to say.>

So you are in the lucky position that neither mobile nor web nor integration matters to you or you have enough resources to do all that stuff yourself. I am envyous. I need to build web pages and people ask me whether we can ship an iPhone App. I do customer-facing stuff and sex sells much more than we like to think.

Your comments on the crappiness of libs in other languages is a great fit for Smalltalk. Not invented here, therefor rubbish. We came a long way with this way of thinking. But these rubbish makers dance circles around us while we try to do our first hello world for an iPad. They laugh at us when we try to reinvent MVC on top of Seaside (although MVC is closesly related to Smalltalk). Because they are back home and watch Netflix while we debug our homegrown base libraries that are, of course, much better than theirs because they are written in Smalltalk.

I am not arguing that maintaining Smalltalk code is far superior to most technolgies out there. But depending on the needs of our projects we have to learn and use those crappy technologies to accomplish what they offer. Because, sometimes (especially if you have to pay bills), an existing library with flaws is better than none.

So if I have to use Javascript or C# or Dart or Swift to do the frontend part of my system, is there still much benefit in using these together with Smalltalk? Or is there - at least from a manager's point of view - not a reasonable amount of sense in choosing the frontend technology also for the logic and compensate the loss in productivity with a gain in avoided complexity?

Your answer delivers a lot of food for thought, but I don't buy all of it. And I don't expect you to buy all of mine ;-)


Joachim

 

 

Do I give a f*** about the number of libraries in other languages?  No, because most of them are crap in every language I’ve had to work in, and the base languages are crap so they have to keep changing radically, and libraries and frameworks therefore also have to and never get any better. The few that are worthwhile I can almost always use from Smalltalk without a problem (read, Blender, ACT-R and Synapse, since every other library/framework I’ve used outside Smalltalk has been a waste of time). 

 

Do I give a f*** about implementing a complex piece of machine learning software in 22 hours, compared to 3 months for the Java version?  Well, actually yes, I do, because that was 3 months of my life down the toilet for something that is too slow to be useful in Java.

 

Any argument depends on your priorities. I’ve written tons of web apps, because I needed to get paid.  I’ve written better shitty mobile apps than the average shitty mobile apps.  However, I’m not going to do any of that any longer in crap that never improves, because after 26 years the irritability it produces is more than it’s worth. 

 

A few weeks ago, a recruiter that specializes in Smalltalk called me about a job, although they were well aware I live 1500 miles away from the city I lived in when I had worked through them, to see if I’d be willing to move back there for a job.  That sounds like another ‘there aren’t enough Smalltalk developers”, but it wasn’t, because the job wasn’t writing Smalltalk.  It was writing Java.

 

The person hiring, though, wouldn’t look at anyone who didn’t write Smalltalk, because “people who grew up with Java don’t know how to write code”.  I don’t agree with that, I’ve known a (very few) good Java developers.  I would say, though, that I’ve known far more incompetent ones than good ones, and I can’t think of any incompetent Smalltalk developers off the top of my head. 

 

Nor have I ever heard a developer in Smalltalk, or Haskell, or LISP, or even C, complain about how hard maintaining state is or coming up with various hacks to avoid it, which seems to be the main point of every JavaScript based ‘technology’.  An application is by definition a state-machine, which implies plenty about JS developers on the whole.

 

If you’re a good developer you can write good code in (nearly) anything.  My question then is why would you want to write in crap?  The better question is why aren’t there more good developers in any language?

 

Every project I have been able to do in Smalltalk, though, has had one thing in common, the “shit has to work”.  Companies do use it, in fact I could name 4 large enterprises I’ve worked for who’ve written their own dialects, and they all use it only when “shit has to work”.  They know it’s more productive, they also know using it for more things would increase the availability of Smalltalk developers. 

 

Why do they not do it?  One reason, though it takes a while to recognize it, because management doesn’t admit even to themselves why they do it, or not very often.  Being inefficient, as long as it doesn’t ‘really’ matter, is an advantage to large enterprises because they have resources smaller competitors don’t. 

 

Why don’t their competitors do it?  Because they can’t see past an hourly rate, what’s fashionable, or just new, or because their customers can’t.  Put more generally, average stupidity that isn’t corrected by the market.  Fashion affects smaller companies more than larger ones, because they can’t afford a few customers walking away because they wanted an app in Electron, even if they can’t give any relevant reason for wanting it, and even the samples on the Electron site don’t work. 

 

Enterprises can, and do use Smalltalk when it matters.  When it doesn’t, it’s to their advantage to promote things that are inefficient, buggy and unreliable.

 

Cost is relevant, but not in the simple way people look at things.  A crucial but rarely mentioned perspective on its relevance is that while Java based software runs TV set top boxes, Smalltalk based software runs things like medical equipment, automated defense systems, tanks, etc.  Cost becomes largely irrelevant when ‘shit has to work’. 

 

Productivity is primarily relevant to less talented developers, in an inversely sense, since unproductive environments and attitudes have a leveling tendency in general, and more specifically make accomplishing what the less talented are capable of in any environment sufficiently laborious for them to have a role.  Capability in Smalltalk, as implied by the person hiring for the Java role I mentioned, is a fairly decent means of judging whether someone is a so-so developer or a good one.

 

The productivity argument is realistically only relevant in the context of an already higher hourly cost.  Given that it is relevant at that point, companies that know Smalltalk is more productive would use it outside things that have to be 100%, if their own productivity were relevant to the same degree that competitors’ productivity is inversely relevant.

 

All these ways of looking at it are contingent perspectives though.  Yes, if the number of libraries is relevant to you, Smalltalk is less attractive, but that’s only a contingent phenomenon based on the relative popularity of Java and JavaScript, as a result it can’t be used as explanatory for that popularity.  All the ways of looking at it that are fully determinate are determinate via contingencies of that kind, which for the most part are precisely the other perspectives, including productivity, cost, availability of developers, etc.  None of them is in itself anything but a result of the others. 

 

If availability of developers is contingent on popularity (and further, popularity contingent on industry attitudes), to use an example already mentioned in Joachim’s post, then his simultaneous posit of library availability is if anything more contingent on the same popularity, so positing it as a cause and not a result, or merely a correlate, of popularity is incoherent.  We can go one step further, and demonstrate that even when large enterprises make something that works reliably available, they fail to promote and support it, which destroys the market for reliable tooling by simultaneously owning it while not promoting it, something IBM is particularly good at.  But IBM can’t (and if they can’t, neither can any other company) operate that way without the tacit agreement of the industry. 

 

To understand it in a more general way, software development has to be looked at in the context where it occurs, and how it’s determined to a large degree by that context, with a specific difference.  That difference is itself implicit in the context, i.e. capitalism, but only purely effective in software development. It’s a result of virtualization as an implicit goal of capitalism, and the disruptions implicit in the virtual but so far only realized completely in software.  In terms of that understanding, the analysis of virtualization and disruption as inherent to capitalism is better accomplished in Kapital than in any more recent work.

 

Or you can simply decide, as I’ve done recently, that working in ways and with tools that prevent doing good work in a reasonable timeframe isn’t worthwhile to you, no matter how popular those ways and tools might be, or what the posited reasons are, since at the end popularity is only insofar as it already is.  What those tools and methods are depends to a degree on your priorities, but if developers are engineers those priorities can’t be completely arbitrary.  Engineers are defined by their ability to make things work.

 

Software as virtual is inherently disruptive, and the software industry disrupts itself too often and too easily to build on anything. A further disruption caused by developers, as engineers, refusing to work with crap that doesn’t, i.e. insisting on being engineers, while in itself merely an aggravation of the disruptive tendencies, might have an inverse result.

 

Using a stable core of technologies as the basis for a more volatile set of products, in the way nearly every other industry does, is the best means we know of to build things both flexibly and reasonably efficiently.  The computer hardware industry is the extreme example of this, while the software industry is the extreme contradiction.

 

From: Pharo-users [hidden email] on behalf of David Mason [hidden email]
Reply-To: Any question about pharo is welcome [hidden email]
Date: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 at 11:52 AM
To: Any question about pharo is welcome [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

 

PharoJS is working to give you that mobile app/browser app experience.  As with others, we're not there yet, but getting there.  See http://pharojs.org

 

The 67% loved means that 67% of people using Smalltalk (or perhaps have ever used it) want to continue - so it's presumably a high percentage of a smallish number of people.

 

On 20 October 2017 at 03:23, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

First of all: I'd say the question itself is not a question but an excuse. I am not arguing there are enough Smalltalkers or cheap ones. But I think the question is just a way of saying "we don't want to do it for reasons that we ourselves cannot really express". If you are a good developer, learning Smalltalk is easy. If you are a good developer you've heard the sentence "we've taken the goos parts from x,y,z and Smalltalk" at least twice a year. So you most likely would like to learn it anyways.

A shortage of developers doesn't exist. What exists is an unwillingness of companies to get people trained in a technology. If Smalltalk was cool and great in their opinion, they wouldn't care. It's that simple. As a consultant, I've heard that argument so often. Not ferom Startups, but from insurance companies, Banks or Car manufacturers who spend millions on useless, endless meetings and stuff instead of just hiring somebody to teach a couple of developers Smalltalk. It's just a lie: the shortage of Smalltalk developers is not a problem.

And, to be honest: what is it we actually are better in by using Smalltalk?
Can we build cool looking web apps in extremely short time? No.
Can we build mobile Apps with little effort? No.
Does our Smalltalk ship lots of great libraries for all kinds of things that are not availabel in similar quality in any other language?
Are we lying when we say we are so extremely over-productive as compared to other languages?

I know, all that live debugging stuff and such is great and it is much faster to find & fix a bug in Smalltalk than in any other environment I've used so far. But that is really only true for business code. When I need to connect to things or want to build a modern GUI or a web application with a great look&feel, I am nowhere near productive, because I simply have to build my own stuff or learn how to use other external resources. If I want to build something for a mobile device, I will only hear that somebody somewhere has done it before. No docs, no proof, no ready-made tool for me.


Shortage of developers is not really the problem. If Smalltalk was as cool as we like to make ourselves believe, this problem would be non-existent. If somebody took out their iPad and told an audience: "We did this in Smalltalk in 40% of the time it would have taken in Swift", and if that something was a must-have for people, things would be much easier. But nobody has.


I am absolutely over-exaggerating, because I make my living with an SaaS product written in Smalltalk (not Pharo). I have lots of fun with Smalltalk and - as you - am convince that many parts of what we've done so far would've taken much longer or even be impossible in other languages. But the advantage was eaten by our extremely steep learning curve for web technologies and for building something that works almost as well as tools like Angular or jQuery Mobile.

Smalltalk is cool, and the day somebody shows me something like Google's flutter in Smalltalk, I am ready to bet a lot on a bright future for Smalltalk. But until then, I'd say these arguments about productivity are just us trying to make ourselves believe we're still the top of the food chain. We've done that for almost thirty years now and still aren't ready to stop it. But we've been lying to ourselves and still do so.

I don't think there is a point in discussing about the usefulness of a language using an argument like the number or ready-made developers. That is just an argument they know you can't win. The real question is and should be: what is the benefit of using Smalltalk. Our productivity argument is a lie as soon as we have to build something that uses or runs on technology that has been invented after 1990.


Okay, shoot ;-)

Joachim


--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel          mailto:[hidden email]
Fliederweg 1                         http://www.objektfabrik.de
D-71640 Ludwigsburg                  http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com
Telefon: <a href="tel:%2B49%207141%2056%2010%2086%200" target="_blank">+49 7141 56 10 86 0         Fax: <a href="tel:%2B49%207141%2056%2010%2086%201" target="_blank">+49 7141 56 10 86 1

 

 

-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel          [hidden email]

Fliederweg 1                         http://www.objektfabrik.de

D-71640 Ludwigsburg                  http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com

Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0         Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1

From: [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2017 9:50 AM
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

I confuse easily, as you say freeipa works wonderfully well, then point out sun support to the api is hidden and it’s tricky to use. Do you mean Hadoop’s use is iffy?

If freeipa works wonderfully can we find the right api and sequence of calls, building our own model in image side? Then that model we compute on and it makes the right calls. Modeling is our strength, I have always thought.

What is achievable? This would benefit ParrotTalk I think.

- HH

There are two key Kerberos implementations one can use with Hadoop.

 

One is the FreeIpa/RedHat IdM.

The other is ActiveDirectory.

 

I am using FreeIPA which bundles MIT Kerberos/389/sssd and more for making a CA etc. Works wonderfullý well.

 

AD is well ... part of the corporate landdscape.

 

Most of Kerberos needs are done with Java in Hadoop. But details are buried in private Sun classes..

 

Google Madness beyond the gate hadoop for some Lovecraftian quotes describing the situation along educated info.

 

Phil

 

On Oct 26, 2017 18:23, "henry" <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have no idea which is best. For being able to say we use industry standard Kerberos, calling an accepted implementation seems wise, like OpenSSL support.

 

- HH

 

 

On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 11:39, Paulo R. Dellani <[hidden email]> wrote:

This all sounds very interesting. What is the idea? Wrap libkrb5 through UFFI or implement it in Smalltalk?

On 10/26/2017 04:38 PM, henry wrote:

A Kerberos effort will have to be a group effort. Sideways to my main focus and your all’s main focii.

 

 

- HH

 

 

On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 09:15, henry <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think another good service to integrate well to is Elastic Search.

 

Of the 4 types of integration, I vote for and step forward to volunteer to help Kerberos integration in Pharo. What to do?

 

 

- HH

 

 

On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 09:06, henry <[hidden email]> wrote:

I try posting with a smaller image.

 

 

- HH

 

 

——— Original Message ———

Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

Local Time: October 26, 2017 8:52 AM

UTC Time: October 26, 2017 12:52 PM

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email] [hidden email], Any question about pharo is welcome [hidden email]

 

Perhaps not, or not yet. Perhaps it is the communications foundation for an always-on cloud/bigData control layer.

 

I would position ParrotTalk as a Kerberos transport. ParrotTalk does 2048-bin key negotiation and subsequent encryption/encoding, both user-supplied. 

 

Please see the attached diagram, co-locating ParrotTalk with my other components.

 

ParrotTalk does not do user authentication/authorization. Which means to me that I should consider Kerberos authorization/authentication to establish as an integratable transport to play in bigData.

 

This means you still need a Kerberos client and I need a Kerberos client. How do we start?

 

- HH

 

PS: I did much work integrating Kafka into a framework. I was thinking of inserting msg sending replication to a partition count of replicate queues for sending and receiving Hubbub traffic, thus inserting right where Kerberos is in the diagram. I would love to see client coupling for Kerberos, Kafka and Hadoop, while I figure out proper security to make that group happy with this as a possible control layer solution, forking off jobs.

 

 

On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 03:14, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Sure. Current main issue is to have Pharo work with Kerberos as secured Hadoop uses the UGI (UserGroupInformation) thing and that is a black hole of crypto things. 

 

How would you see ParrotTalk work? 

 

I made a XmppTalk thing (binding for libstrophe) for having Pharo images and other stuff talk together (currently using OpenFire/Gajim/Profanity) FWIW

 

See https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1HTG3GB3xdwlje8wADZPjUQNIyA6tmuxyZz1UaX5ikEU/edit?usp=sharing

 

libstrophe does the SSL thing under the hood (using OpenSSL) and is actively maintained.

https://github.com/strophe/libstrophe/blob/master/src/tls_openssl.c

 

And I currently work with Kafka so, Pharo as a consumer or producer, sure am interested. But need Kerberos support.

 

Tell me more about your vision. Even better, draw it in some way :-)

 

Phil

 

 

On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 8:43 AM, henry <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

This is a goal of ParrotTalk, to bring bit-compatible communications to Squeak, Pharo and Java. This is not an invocation bridge you speak of but a communications bridge to be able to run against Hadoop or whichever big data needs integration with (Kafka). I had hoped it might be adopted for such. Yet again this is not exactly what you were looking for but yet interesting perhaps?

 

 

- HH

 

 

On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 02:17, [hidden email] < [hidden email]> wrote:

I like that piece a lot, seeing exactly the described situation in large enterprises.

 

I made a strategic decision to go with Pharo for the long run for my solutions because it is a stable base on which to build (ok, there are evolutions, but fundamentally, I can rely on it being under control and can maintain solutions in a version).

 

The rationale is that at a deep level I am really fed up with having to deal with accidental complexity (now having to deal with Spark/Scala/sbt/Java/maven stuff) that makes the dev focus 80% technology drag and 20% net business contribution.

 

One key thing is that a team needs guidance and Smalltalk makes it easier due to well known ways of doing things.

 

Now we miss the boat on mobile and bigdata, but this is solvable. 

 

If we had an open Java bridge (and some people in the community have it for Pharo but do not open source it - so this is eminently doable) + Pharo as an embeddable piece (e.g. like Tcl and Lua) and not a big executable we would have a way to embed Pharo in a lot of places (e.g. in the Hadoop ecosystem where fast starting VMs and small footprint would make the cluster capacity x2 or x3 vs uberjars all over the place)  this would be a real disruption.

 

Think about being able to call Pharo from JNA https://github.com/java-native-access/jna the same way we use C with UFFI.

 

Smalltalk argument for me is that it makes development bearable (even fun and enjoyable would I say) vs the other stacks. That matters.

 

From: [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2017 5:03 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

Elastic search JSON integration would be another good one. I heard there was a Kafka integration, is that true? Where could I find that, I used to use Kafka.

Kafka is a great event channel for input to BigData. Using Kafka, it is well in crafting a Lamda Architecture. Imagine Pharo where Storm resides.

<img border=0 id="_x0000_i1025" src="webkit-fake-url://502df029-af7a-484e-b157-43970b30a0a1/imagejpeg" alt="webkit-fake-url://502df029-af7a-484e-b157-43970b30a0a1/imagejpeg">

- HH

 How about Kerberos? Can we get a team to look closely at bringing integration for enterprise users? That would be helpful, or can you just put it behind a Kerberos wrapper? If that would work, collecting a demo, that could unlock more corporate wallets , for investment.

 

 

- HH

 

 

On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 16:41, henry <henry@...> wrote:

How is there no steering committee to accumulate wrapping 3rd party libraries in Alien to gain benefits of code in other languages? Do not assume that code is not extremely well written in that particular language for that particular task and that particular deployment mechanism.

 

Can Pharo be called as a shared library from Java JNA?

 

- HH

 

 

On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 15:47, Andrew Glynn <aglynn42@...> wrote:

I’m not claiming I don’t or haven’t been affected, only that I no long allow myself to be.  Does that cause issues?  Of course.  But I’d rather deal with those than do things I don’t enjoy.  However I only got to that point after 26 years in the industry, so I don’t expect that everyone will feel that way.

 

Cheers

Andrew

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: jtuchel@...
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 8:14 AM
To: pharo-users@...
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

 

Andrew,

Am 26.10.17 um 00:46 schrieb Andrew Glynn:

There’s other questions that are relevant to me:

I am glad you opened your words with this sentence. Other peoples’ mileages may vary a lot.

> Do I give a f*** about cool looking web apps?  No, I don’t use web apps if in any way I can avoid it.

 

Some people can’t. I can’t. I am making my living with a web based application. And I like it.

 

> Do I give a f*** about mobile apps?  No, the screen’s too small to read anything longer than a twit, or anyone with anything worthwhile to say.>

So you are in the lucky position that neither mobile nor web nor integration matters to you or you have enough resources to do all that stuff yourself. I am envyous. I need to build web pages and people ask me whether we can ship an iPhone App. I do customer-facing stuff and sex sells much more than we like to think.

Your comments on the crappiness of libs in other languages is a great fit for Smalltalk. Not invented here, therefor rubbish. We came a long way with this way of thinking. But these rubbish makers dance circles around us while we try to do our first hello world for an iPad. They laugh at us when we try to reinvent MVC on top of Seaside (although MVC is closesly related to Smalltalk). Because they are back home and watch Netflix while we debug our homegrown base libraries that are, of course, much better than theirs because they are written in Smalltalk.

I am not arguing that maintaining Smalltalk code is far superior to most technolgies out there. But depending on the needs of our projects we have to learn and use those crappy technologies to accomplish what they offer. Because, sometimes (especially if you have to pay bills), an existing library with flaws is better than none.

So if I have to use Javascript or C# or Dart or Swift to do the frontend part of my system, is there still much benefit in using these together with Smalltalk? Or is there - at least from a manager’s point of view - not a reasonable amount of sense in choosing the frontend technology also for the logic and compensate the loss in productivity with a gain in avoided complexity?

Your answer delivers a lot of food for thought, but I don’t buy all of it. And I don’t expect you to buy all of mine ;-)


Joachim

 

 

Do I give a f*** about the number of libraries in other languages?  No, because most of them are crap in every language I’ve had to work in, and the base languages are crap so they have to keep changing radically, and libraries and frameworks therefore also have to and never get any better. The few that are worthwhile I can almost always use from Smalltalk without a problem (read, Blender, ACT-R and Synapse, since every other library/framework I’ve used outside Smalltalk has been a waste of time). 

 

Do I give a f*** about implementing a complex piece of machine learning software in 22 hours, compared to 3 months for the Java version?  Well, actually yes, I do, because that was 3 months of my life down the toilet for something that is too slow to be useful in Java.

 

Any argument depends on your priorities. I’ve written tons of web apps, because I needed to get paid.  I’ve written better shitty mobile apps than the average shitty mobile apps.  However, I’m not going to do any of that any longer in crap that never improves, because after 26 years the irritability it produces is more than it’s worth. 

 

A few weeks ago, a recruiter that specializes in Smalltalk called me about a job, although they were well aware I live 1500 miles away from the city I lived in when I had worked through them, to see if I’d be willing to move back there for a job.  That sounds like another ‘there aren’t enough Smalltalk developers", but it wasn’t, because the job wasn’t writing Smalltalk.  It was writing Java.

 

The person hiring, though, wouldn’t look at anyone who didn’t write Smalltalk, because "people who grew up with Java don’t know how to write code".  I don’t agree with that, I’ve known a (very few) good Java developers.  I would say, though, that I’ve known far more incompetent ones than good ones, and I can’t think of any incompetent Smalltalk developers off the top of my head. 

 

Nor have I ever heard a developer in Smalltalk, or Haskell, or LISP, or even C, complain about how hard maintaining state is or coming up with various hacks to avoid it, which seems to be the main point of every JavaScript based ‘technology’.  An application is by definition a state-machine, which implies plenty about JS developers on the whole.

 

If you’re a good developer you can write good code in (nearly) anything.  My question then is why would you want to write in crap?  The better question is why aren’t there more good developers in any language?

 

Every project I have been able to do in Smalltalk, though, has had one thing in common, the "shit has to work".  Companies do use it, in fact I could name 4 large enterprises I’ve worked for who’ve written their own dialects, and they all use it only when "shit has to work".  They know it’s more productive, they also know using it for more things would increase the availability of Smalltalk developers. 

 

Why do they not do it?  One reason, though it takes a while to recognize it, because management doesn’t admit even to themselves why they do it, or not very often.  Being inefficient, as long as it doesn’t ‘really’ matter, is an advantage to large enterprises because they have resources smaller competitors don’t. 

 

Why don’t their competitors do it?  Because they can’t see past an hourly rate, what’s fashionable, or just new, or because their customers can’t.  Put more generally, average stupidity that isn’t corrected by the market.  Fashion affects smaller companies more than larger ones, because they can’t afford a few customers walking away because they wanted an app in Electron, even if they can’t give any relevant reason for wanting it, and even the samples on the Electron site don’t work. 

 

Enterprises can, and do use Smalltalk when it matters.  When it doesn’t, it’s to their advantage to promote things that are inefficient, buggy and unreliable.

 

Cost is relevant, but not in the simple way people look at things.  A crucial but rarely mentioned perspective on its relevance is that while Java based software runs TV set top boxes, Smalltalk based software runs things like medical equipment, automated defense systems, tanks, etc.  Cost becomes largely irrelevant when ‘shit has to work’. 

 

Productivity is primarily relevant to less talented developers, in an inversely sense, since unproductive environments and attitudes have a leveling tendency in general, and more specifically make accomplishing what the less talented are capable of in any environment sufficiently laborious for them to have a role.  Capability in Smalltalk, as implied by the person hiring for the Java role I mentioned, is a fairly decent means of judging whether someone is a so-so developer or a good one.

 

The productivity argument is realistically only relevant in the context of an already higher hourly cost.  Given that it is relevant at that point, companies that know Smalltalk is more productive would use it outside things that have to be 100%, if their own productivity were relevant to the same degree that competitors’ productivity is inversely relevant.

 

All these ways of looking at it are contingent perspectives though.  Yes, if the number of libraries is relevant to you, Smalltalk is less attractive, but that’s only a contingent phenomenon based on the relative popularity of Java and JavaScript, as a result it can’t be used as explanatory for that popularity.  All the ways of looking at it that are fully determinate are determinate via contingencies of that kind, which for the most part are precisely the other perspectives, including productivity, cost, availability of developers, etc.  None of them is in itself anything but a result of the others. 

 

If availability of developers is contingent on popularity (and further, popularity contingent on industry attitudes), to use an example already mentioned in Joachim’s post, then his simultaneous posit of library availability is if anything more contingent on the same popularity, so positing it as a cause and not a result, or merely a correlate, of popularity is incoherent.  We can go one step further, and demonstrate that even when large enterprises make something that works reliably available, they fail to promote and support it, which destroys the market for reliable tooling by simultaneously owning it while not promoting it, something IBM is particularly good at.  But IBM can’t (and if they can’t, neither can any other company) operate that way without the tacit agreement of the industry. 

 

To understand it in a more general way, software development has to be looked at in the context where it occurs, and how it’s determined to a large degree by that context, with a specific difference.  That difference is itself implicit in the context, i.e. capitalism, but only purely effective in software development. It’s a result of virtualization as an implicit goal of capitalism, and the disruptions implicit in the virtual but so far only realized completely in software.  In terms of that understanding, the analysis of virtualization and disruption as inherent to capitalism is better accomplished in Kapital than in any more recent work.

 

Or you can simply decide, as I’ve done recently, that working in ways and with tools that prevent doing good work in a reasonable timeframe isn’t worthwhile to you, no matter how popular those ways and tools might be, or what the posited reasons are, since at the end popularity is only insofar as it already is.  What those tools and methods are depends to a degree on your priorities, but if developers are engineers those priorities can’t be completely arbitrary.  Engineers are defined by their ability to make things work.

 

Software as virtual is inherently disruptive, and the software industry disrupts itself too often and too easily to build on anything. A further disruption caused by developers, as engineers, refusing to work with crap that doesn’t, i.e. insisting on being engineers, while in itself merely an aggravation of the disruptive tendencies, might have an inverse result.

 

Using a stable core of technologies as the basis for a more volatile set of products, in the way nearly every other industry does, is the best means we know of to build things both flexibly and reasonably efficiently.  The computer hardware industry is the extreme example of this, while the software industry is the extreme contradiction.

 

From: Pharo-users <pharo-users-bounces@...> on behalf of David Mason <dmason@...>
Reply-To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users@...>
Date: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 at 11:52 AM
To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users@...>
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

 

PharoJS is working to give you that mobile app/browser app experience.  As with others, we’re not there yet, but getting there.  See http://pharojs.org

 

The 67% loved means that 67% of people using Smalltalk (or perhaps have ever used it) want to continue - so it’s presumably a high percentage of a smallish number of people.

 

On 20 October 2017 at 03:23, jtuchel@... <jtuchel@...> wrote:

First of all: I’d say the question itself is not a question but an excuse. I am not arguing there are enough Smalltalkers or cheap ones. But I think the question is just a way of saying "we don’t want to do it for reasons that we ourselves cannot really express". If you are a good developer, learning Smalltalk is easy. If you are a good developer you’ve heard the sentence "we’ve taken the goos parts from x,y,z and Smalltalk" at least twice a year. So you most likely would like to learn it anyways.

A shortage of developers doesn’t exist. What exists is an unwillingness of companies to get people trained in a technology. If Smalltalk was cool and great in their opinion, they wouldn’t care. It’s that simple. As a consultant, I’ve heard that argument so often. Not ferom Startups, but from insurance companies, Banks or Car manufacturers who spend millions on useless, endless meetings and stuff instead of just hiring somebody to teach a couple of developers Smalltalk. It’s just a lie: the shortage of Smalltalk developers is not a problem.

And, to be honest: what is it we actually are better in by using Smalltalk?
Can we build cool looking web apps in extremely short time? No.
Can we build mobile Apps with little effort? No.
Does our Smalltalk ship lots of great libraries for all kinds of things that are not availabel in similar quality in any other language?
Are we lying when we say we are so extremely over-productive as compared to other languages?

I know, all that live debugging stuff and such is great and it is much faster to find & fix a bug in Smalltalk than in any other environment I’ve used so far. But that is really only true for business code. When I need to connect to things or want to build a modern GUI or a web application with a great look&feel, I am nowhere near productive, because I simply have to build my own stuff or learn how to use other external resources. If I want to build something for a mobile device, I will only hear that somebody somewhere has done it before. No docs, no proof, no ready-made tool for me.


Shortage of developers is not really the problem. If Smalltalk was as cool as we like to make ourselves believe, this problem would be non-existent. If somebody took out their iPad and told an audience: "We did this in Smalltalk in 40% of the time it would have taken in Swift", and if that something was a must-have for people, things would be much easier. But nobody has.


I am absolutely over-exaggerating, because I make my living with an SaaS product written in Smalltalk (not Pharo). I have lots of fun with Smalltalk and - as you - am convince that many parts of what we’ve done so far would’ve taken much longer or even be impossible in other languages. But the advantage was eaten by our extremely steep learning curve for web technologies and for building something that works almost as well as tools like Angular or jQuery Mobile.

Smalltalk is cool, and the day somebody shows me something like Google’s flutter in Smalltalk, I am ready to bet a lot on a bright future for Smalltalk. But until then, I’d say these arguments about productivity are just us trying to make ourselves believe we’re still the top of the food chain. We’ve done that for almost thirty years now and still aren’t ready to stop it. But we’ve been lying to ourselves and still do so.

I don’t think there is a point in discussing about the usefulness of a language using an argument like the number or ready-made developers. That is just an argument they know you can’t win. The real question is and should be: what is the benefit of using Smalltalk. Our productivity argument is a lie as soon as we have to build something that uses or runs on technology that has been invented after 1990.


Okay, shoot ;-)

Joachim


—
————————————————————————
Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel          mailto:jtuchel@...
Fliederweg 1                         http://www.objektfabrik.de
D-71640 Ludwigsburg                  http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com
Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0         Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1

 

 

— 

————————————————————————

Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel          mailto:jtuchel@...

Fliederweg 1                         http://www.objektfabrik.de

D-71640 Ludwigsburg                  http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com

Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0         Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1

From: [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2017 5:03 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

Elastic search JSON integration would be another good one. I heard there was a Kafka integration, is that true? Where could I find that, I used to use Kafka.

Kafka is a great event channel for input to BigData. Using Kafka, it is well in crafting a Lamda Architecture. Imagine Pharo where Storm resides.

<img border=0 id="_x0000_i1025" src="webkit-fake-url://502df029-af7a-484e-b157-43970b30a0a1/imagejpeg" alt="webkit-fake-url://502df029-af7a-484e-b157-43970b30a0a1/imagejpeg">

- HH

 How about Kerberos? Can we get a team to look closely at bringing integration for enterprise users? That would be helpful, or can you just put it behind a Kerberos wrapper? If that would work, collecting a demo, that could unlock more corporate wallets , for investment.

 

 

- HH

 

 

On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 16:41, henry <henry@...> wrote:

How is there no steering committee to accumulate wrapping 3rd party libraries in Alien to gain benefits of code in other languages? Do not assume that code is not extremely well written in that particular language for that particular task and that particular deployment mechanism.

 

Can Pharo be called as a shared library from Java JNA?

 

- HH

 

 

On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 15:47, Andrew Glynn <aglynn42@...> wrote:

I’m not claiming I don’t or haven’t been affected, only that I no long allow myself to be.  Does that cause issues?  Of course.  But I’d rather deal with those than do things I don’t enjoy.  However I only got to that point after 26 years in the industry, so I don’t expect that everyone will feel that way.

 

Cheers

Andrew

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: jtuchel@...
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 8:14 AM
To: pharo-users@...
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

 

Andrew,

Am 26.10.17 um 00:46 schrieb Andrew Glynn:

There’s other questions that are relevant to me:

I am glad you opened your words with this sentence. Other peoples’ mileages may vary a lot.

> Do I give a f*** about cool looking web apps?  No, I don’t use web apps if in any way I can avoid it.

 

Some people can’t. I can’t. I am making my living with a web based application. And I like it.

 

> Do I give a f*** about mobile apps?  No, the screen’s too small to read anything longer than a twit, or anyone with anything worthwhile to say.>

So you are in the lucky position that neither mobile nor web nor integration matters to you or you have enough resources to do all that stuff yourself. I am envyous. I need to build web pages and people ask me whether we can ship an iPhone App. I do customer-facing stuff and sex sells much more than we like to think.

Your comments on the crappiness of libs in other languages is a great fit for Smalltalk. Not invented here, therefor rubbish. We came a long way with this way of thinking. But these rubbish makers dance circles around us while we try to do our first hello world for an iPad. They laugh at us when we try to reinvent MVC on top of Seaside (although MVC is closesly related to Smalltalk). Because they are back home and watch Netflix while we debug our homegrown base libraries that are, of course, much better than theirs because they are written in Smalltalk.

I am not arguing that maintaining Smalltalk code is far superior to most technolgies out there. But depending on the needs of our projects we have to learn and use those crappy technologies to accomplish what they offer. Because, sometimes (especially if you have to pay bills), an existing library with flaws is better than none.

So if I have to use Javascript or C# or Dart or Swift to do the frontend part of my system, is there still much benefit in using these together with Smalltalk? Or is there - at least from a manager’s point of view - not a reasonable amount of sense in choosing the frontend technology also for the logic and compensate the loss in productivity with a gain in avoided complexity?

Your answer delivers a lot of food for thought, but I don’t buy all of it. And I don’t expect you to buy all of mine ;-)


Joachim

 

 

Do I give a f*** about the number of libraries in other languages?  No, because most of them are crap in every language I’ve had to work in, and the base languages are crap so they have to keep changing radically, and libraries and frameworks therefore also have to and never get any better. The few that are worthwhile I can almost always use from Smalltalk without a problem (read, Blender, ACT-R and Synapse, since every other library/framework I’ve used outside Smalltalk has been a waste of time). 

 

Do I give a f*** about implementing a complex piece of machine learning software in 22 hours, compared to 3 months for the Java version?  Well, actually yes, I do, because that was 3 months of my life down the toilet for something that is too slow to be useful in Java.

 

Any argument depends on your priorities. I’ve written tons of web apps, because I needed to get paid.  I’ve written better shitty mobile apps than the average shitty mobile apps.  However, I’m not going to do any of that any longer in crap that never improves, because after 26 years the irritability it produces is more than it’s worth. 

 

A few weeks ago, a recruiter that specializes in Smalltalk called me about a job, although they were well aware I live 1500 miles away from the city I lived in when I had worked through them, to see if I’d be willing to move back there for a job.  That sounds like another ‘there aren’t enough Smalltalk developers", but it wasn’t, because the job wasn’t writing Smalltalk.  It was writing Java.

 

The person hiring, though, wouldn’t look at anyone who didn’t write Smalltalk, because "people who grew up with Java don’t know how to write code".  I don’t agree with that, I’ve known a (very few) good Java developers.  I would say, though, that I’ve known far more incompetent ones than good ones, and I can’t think of any incompetent Smalltalk developers off the top of my head. 

 

Nor have I ever heard a developer in Smalltalk, or Haskell, or LISP, or even C, complain about how hard maintaining state is or coming up with various hacks to avoid it, which seems to be the main point of every JavaScript based ‘technology’.  An application is by definition a state-machine, which implies plenty about JS developers on the whole.

 

If you’re a good developer you can write good code in (nearly) anything.  My question then is why would you want to write in crap?  The better question is why aren’t there more good developers in any language?

 

Every project I have been able to do in Smalltalk, though, has had one thing in common, the "shit has to work".  Companies do use it, in fact I could name 4 large enterprises I’ve worked for who’ve written their own dialects, and they all use it only when "shit has to work".  They know it’s more productive, they also know using it for more things would increase the availability of Smalltalk developers. 

 

Why do they not do it?  One reason, though it takes a while to recognize it, because management doesn’t admit even to themselves why they do it, or not very often.  Being inefficient, as long as it doesn’t ‘really’ matter, is an advantage to large enterprises because they have resources smaller competitors don’t. 

 

Why don’t their competitors do it?  Because they can’t see past an hourly rate, what’s fashionable, or just new, or because their customers can’t.  Put more generally, average stupidity that isn’t corrected by the market.  Fashion affects smaller companies more than larger ones, because they can’t afford a few customers walking away because they wanted an app in Electron, even if they can’t give any relevant reason for wanting it, and even the samples on the Electron site don’t work. 

 

Enterprises can, and do use Smalltalk when it matters.  When it doesn’t, it’s to their advantage to promote things that are inefficient, buggy and unreliable.

 

Cost is relevant, but not in the simple way people look at things.  A crucial but rarely mentioned perspective on its relevance is that while Java based software runs TV set top boxes, Smalltalk based software runs things like medical equipment, automated defense systems, tanks, etc.  Cost becomes largely irrelevant when ‘shit has to work’. 

 

Productivity is primarily relevant to less talented developers, in an inversely sense, since unproductive environments and attitudes have a leveling tendency in general, and more specifically make accomplishing what the less talented are capable of in any environment sufficiently laborious for them to have a role.  Capability in Smalltalk, as implied by the person hiring for the Java role I mentioned, is a fairly decent means of judging whether someone is a so-so developer or a good one.

 

The productivity argument is realistically only relevant in the context of an already higher hourly cost.  Given that it is relevant at that point, companies that know Smalltalk is more productive would use it outside things that have to be 100%, if their own productivity were relevant to the same degree that competitors’ productivity is inversely relevant.

 

All these ways of looking at it are contingent perspectives though.  Yes, if the number of libraries is relevant to you, Smalltalk is less attractive, but that’s only a contingent phenomenon based on the relative popularity of Java and JavaScript, as a result it can’t be used as explanatory for that popularity.  All the ways of looking at it that are fully determinate are determinate via contingencies of that kind, which for the most part are precisely the other perspectives, including productivity, cost, availability of developers, etc.  None of them is in itself anything but a result of the others. 

 

If availability of developers is contingent on popularity (and further, popularity contingent on industry attitudes), to use an example already mentioned in Joachim’s post, then his simultaneous posit of library availability is if anything more contingent on the same popularity, so positing it as a cause and not a result, or merely a correlate, of popularity is incoherent.  We can go one step further, and demonstrate that even when large enterprises make something that works reliably available, they fail to promote and support it, which destroys the market for reliable tooling by simultaneously owning it while not promoting it, something IBM is particularly good at.  But IBM can’t (and if they can’t, neither can any other company) operate that way without the tacit agreement of the industry. 

 

To understand it in a more general way, software development has to be looked at in the context where it occurs, and how it’s determined to a large degree by that context, with a specific difference.  That difference is itself implicit in the context, i.e. capitalism, but only purely effective in software development. It’s a result of virtualization as an implicit goal of capitalism, and the disruptions implicit in the virtual but so far only realized completely in software.  In terms of that understanding, the analysis of virtualization and disruption as inherent to capitalism is better accomplished in Kapital than in any more recent work.

 

Or you can simply decide, as I’ve done recently, that working in ways and with tools that prevent doing good work in a reasonable timeframe isn’t worthwhile to you, no matter how popular those ways and tools might be, or what the posited reasons are, since at the end popularity is only insofar as it already is.  What those tools and methods are depends to a degree on your priorities, but if developers are engineers those priorities can’t be completely arbitrary.  Engineers are defined by their ability to make things work.

 

Software as virtual is inherently disruptive, and the software industry disrupts itself too often and too easily to build on anything. A further disruption caused by developers, as engineers, refusing to work with crap that doesn’t, i.e. insisting on being engineers, while in itself merely an aggravation of the disruptive tendencies, might have an inverse result.

 

Using a stable core of technologies as the basis for a more volatile set of products, in the way nearly every other industry does, is the best means we know of to build things both flexibly and reasonably efficiently.  The computer hardware industry is the extreme example of this, while the software industry is the extreme contradiction.

 

From: Pharo-users <pharo-users-bounces@...> on behalf of David Mason <dmason@...>
Reply-To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users@...>
Date: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 at 11:52 AM
To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users@...>
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

 

PharoJS is working to give you that mobile app/browser app experience.  As with others, we’re not there yet, but getting there.  See http://pharojs.org

 

The 67% loved means that 67% of people using Smalltalk (or perhaps have ever used it) want to continue - so it’s presumably a high percentage of a smallish number of people.

 

On 20 October 2017 at 03:23, jtuchel@... <jtuchel@...> wrote:

First of all: I’d say the question itself is not a question but an excuse. I am not arguing there are enough Smalltalkers or cheap ones. But I think the question is just a way of saying "we don’t want to do it for reasons that we ourselves cannot really express". If you are a good developer, learning Smalltalk is easy. If you are a good developer you’ve heard the sentence "we’ve taken the goos parts from x,y,z and Smalltalk" at least twice a year. So you most likely would like to learn it anyways.

A shortage of developers doesn’t exist. What exists is an unwillingness of companies to get people trained in a technology. If Smalltalk was cool and great in their opinion, they wouldn’t care. It’s that simple. As a consultant, I’ve heard that argument so often. Not ferom Startups, but from insurance companies, Banks or Car manufacturers who spend millions on useless, endless meetings and stuff instead of just hiring somebody to teach a couple of developers Smalltalk. It’s just a lie: the shortage of Smalltalk developers is not a problem.

And, to be honest: what is it we actually are better in by using Smalltalk?
Can we build cool looking web apps in extremely short time? No.
Can we build mobile Apps with little effort? No.
Does our Smalltalk ship lots of great libraries for all kinds of things that are not availabel in similar quality in any other language?
Are we lying when we say we are so extremely over-productive as compared to other languages?

I know, all that live debugging stuff and such is great and it is much faster to find & fix a bug in Smalltalk than in any other environment I’ve used so far. But that is really only true for business code. When I need to connect to things or want to build a modern GUI or a web application with a great look&feel, I am nowhere near productive, because I simply have to build my own stuff or learn how to use other external resources. If I want to build something for a mobile device, I will only hear that somebody somewhere has done it before. No docs, no proof, no ready-made tool for me.


Shortage of developers is not really the problem. If Smalltalk was as cool as we like to make ourselves believe, this problem would be non-existent. If somebody took out their iPad and told an audience: "We did this in Smalltalk in 40% of the time it would have taken in Swift", and if that something was a must-have for people, things would be much easier. But nobody has.


I am absolutely over-exaggerating, because I make my living with an SaaS product written in Smalltalk (not Pharo). I have lots of fun with Smalltalk and - as you - am convince that many parts of what we’ve done so far would’ve taken much longer or even be impossible in other languages. But the advantage was eaten by our extremely steep learning curve for web technologies and for building something that works almost as well as tools like Angular or jQuery Mobile.

Smalltalk is cool, and the day somebody shows me something like Google’s flutter in Smalltalk, I am ready to bet a lot on a bright future for Smalltalk. But until then, I’d say these arguments about productivity are just us trying to make ourselves believe we’re still the top of the food chain. We’ve done that for almost thirty years now and still aren’t ready to stop it. But we’ve been lying to ourselves and still do so.

I don’t think there is a point in discussing about the usefulness of a language using an argument like the number or ready-made developers. That is just an argument they know you can’t win. The real question is and should be: what is the benefit of using Smalltalk. Our productivity argument is a lie as soon as we have to build something that uses or runs on technology that has been invented after 1990.


Okay, shoot ;-)

Joachim


—
————————————————————————
Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel          mailto:jtuchel@...
Fliederweg 1                         http://www.objektfabrik.de
D-71640 Ludwigsburg                  http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com
Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0         Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1

 

 

— 

————————————————————————

Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel          mailto:jtuchel@...

Fliederweg 1                         http://www.objektfabrik.de

D-71640 Ludwigsburg                  http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com

Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0         Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1

From: [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2017 5:03 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

Elastic search JSON integration would be another good one. I heard there was a Kafka integration, is that true? Where could I find that, I used to use Kafka.

Kafka is a great event channel for input to BigData. Using Kafka, it is well in crafting a Lamda Architecture. Imagine Pharo where Storm resides.

<img border=0 id="_x0000_i1025" src="webkit-fake-url://502df029-af7a-484e-b157-43970b30a0a1/imagejpeg" alt="webkit-fake-url://502df029-af7a-484e-b157-43970b30a0a1/imagejpeg">

- HH

 How about Kerberos? Can we get a team to look closely at bringing integration for enterprise users? That would be helpful, or can you just put it behind a Kerberos wrapper? If that would work, collecting a demo, that could unlock more corporate wallets , for investment.

 

 

- HH

 

 

On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 16:41, henry <henry@...> wrote:

How is there no steering committee to accumulate wrapping 3rd party libraries in Alien to gain benefits of code in other languages? Do not assume that code is not extremely well written in that particular language for that particular task and that particular deployment mechanism.

 

Can Pharo be called as a shared library from Java JNA?

 

- HH

 

 

On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 15:47, Andrew Glynn <aglynn42@...> wrote:

I’m not claiming I don’t or haven’t been affected, only that I no long allow myself to be.  Does that cause issues?  Of course.  But I’d rather deal with those than do things I don’t enjoy.  However I only got to that point after 26 years in the industry, so I don’t expect that everyone will feel that way.

 

Cheers

Andrew

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: jtuchel@...
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 8:14 AM
To: pharo-users@...
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

 

Andrew,

Am 26.10.17 um 00:46 schrieb Andrew Glynn:

There’s other questions that are relevant to me:

I am glad you opened your words with this sentence. Other peoples’ mileages may vary a lot.

> Do I give a f*** about cool looking web apps?  No, I don’t use web apps if in any way I can avoid it.

 

Some people can’t. I can’t. I am making my living with a web based application. And I like it.

 

> Do I give a f*** about mobile apps?  No, the screen’s too small to read anything longer than a twit, or anyone with anything worthwhile to say.>

So you are in the lucky position that neither mobile nor web nor integration matters to you or you have enough resources to do all that stuff yourself. I am envyous. I need to build web pages and people ask me whether we can ship an iPhone App. I do customer-facing stuff and sex sells much more than we like to think.

Your comments on the crappiness of libs in other languages is a great fit for Smalltalk. Not invented here, therefor rubbish. We came a long way with this way of thinking. But these rubbish makers dance circles around us while we try to do our first hello world for an iPad. They laugh at us when we try to reinvent MVC on top of Seaside (although MVC is closesly related to Smalltalk). Because they are back home and watch Netflix while we debug our homegrown base libraries that are, of course, much better than theirs because they are written in Smalltalk.

I am not arguing that maintaining Smalltalk code is far superior to most technolgies out there. But depending on the needs of our projects we have to learn and use those crappy technologies to accomplish what they offer. Because, sometimes (especially if you have to pay bills), an existing library with flaws is better than none.

So if I have to use Javascript or C# or Dart or Swift to do the frontend part of my system, is there still much benefit in using these together with Smalltalk? Or is there - at least from a manager’s point of view - not a reasonable amount of sense in choosing the frontend technology also for the logic and compensate the loss in productivity with a gain in avoided complexity?

Your answer delivers a lot of food for thought, but I don’t buy all of it. And I don’t expect you to buy all of mine ;-)


Joachim

 

 

Do I give a f*** about the number of libraries in other languages?  No, because most of them are crap in every language I’ve had to work in, and the base languages are crap so they have to keep changing radically, and libraries and frameworks therefore also have to and never get any better. The few that are worthwhile I can almost always use from Smalltalk without a problem (read, Blender, ACT-R and Synapse, since every other library/framework I’ve used outside Smalltalk has been a waste of time). 

 

Do I give a f*** about implementing a complex piece of machine learning software in 22 hours, compared to 3 months for the Java version?  Well, actually yes, I do, because that was 3 months of my life down the toilet for something that is too slow to be useful in Java.

 

Any argument depends on your priorities. I’ve written tons of web apps, because I needed to get paid.  I’ve written better shitty mobile apps than the average shitty mobile apps.  However, I’m not going to do any of that any longer in crap that never improves, because after 26 years the irritability it produces is more than it’s worth. 

 

A few weeks ago, a recruiter that specializes in Smalltalk called me about a job, although they were well aware I live 1500 miles away from the city I lived in when I had worked through them, to see if I’d be willing to move back there for a job.  That sounds like another ‘there aren’t enough Smalltalk developers", but it wasn’t, because the job wasn’t writing Smalltalk.  It was writing Java.

 

The person hiring, though, wouldn’t look at anyone who didn’t write Smalltalk, because "people who grew up with Java don’t know how to write code".  I don’t agree with that, I’ve known a (very few) good Java developers.  I would say, though, that I’ve known far more incompetent ones than good ones, and I can’t think of any incompetent Smalltalk developers off the top of my head. 

 

Nor have I ever heard a developer in Smalltalk, or Haskell, or LISP, or even C, complain about how hard maintaining state is or coming up with various hacks to avoid it, which seems to be the main point of every JavaScript based ‘technology’.  An application is by definition a state-machine, which implies plenty about JS developers on the whole.

 

If you’re a good developer you can write good code in (nearly) anything.  My question then is why would you want to write in crap?  The better question is why aren’t there more good developers in any language?

 

Every project I have been able to do in Smalltalk, though, has had one thing in common, the "shit has to work".  Companies do use it, in fact I could name 4 large enterprises I’ve worked for who’ve written their own dialects, and they all use it only when "shit has to work".  They know it’s more productive, they also know using it for more things would increase the availability of Smalltalk developers. 

 

Why do they not do it?  One reason, though it takes a while to recognize it, because management doesn’t admit even to themselves why they do it, or not very often.  Being inefficient, as long as it doesn’t ‘really’ matter, is an advantage to large enterprises because they have resources smaller competitors don’t. 

 

Why don’t their competitors do it?  Because they can’t see past an hourly rate, what’s fashionable, or just new, or because their customers can’t.  Put more generally, average stupidity that isn’t corrected by the market.  Fashion affects smaller companies more than larger ones, because they can’t afford a few customers walking away because they wanted an app in Electron, even if they can’t give any relevant reason for wanting it, and even the samples on the Electron site don’t work. 

 

Enterprises can, and do use Smalltalk when it matters.  When it doesn’t, it’s to their advantage to promote things that are inefficient, buggy and unreliable.

 

Cost is relevant, but not in the simple way people look at things.  A crucial but rarely mentioned perspective on its relevance is that while Java based software runs TV set top boxes, Smalltalk based software runs things like medical equipment, automated defense systems, tanks, etc.  Cost becomes largely irrelevant when ‘shit has to work’. 

 

Productivity is primarily relevant to less talented developers, in an inversely sense, since unproductive environments and attitudes have a leveling tendency in general, and more specifically make accomplishing what the less talented are capable of in any environment sufficiently laborious for them to have a role.  Capability in Smalltalk, as implied by the person hiring for the Java role I mentioned, is a fairly decent means of judging whether someone is a so-so developer or a good one.

 

The productivity argument is realistically only relevant in the context of an already higher hourly cost.  Given that it is relevant at that point, companies that know Smalltalk is more productive would use it outside things that have to be 100%, if their own productivity were relevant to the same degree that competitors’ productivity is inversely relevant.

 

All these ways of looking at it are contingent perspectives though.  Yes, if the number of libraries is relevant to you, Smalltalk is less attractive, but that’s only a contingent phenomenon based on the relative popularity of Java and JavaScript, as a result it can’t be used as explanatory for that popularity.  All the ways of looking at it that are fully determinate are determinate via contingencies of that kind, which for the most part are precisely the other perspectives, including productivity, cost, availability of developers, etc.  None of them is in itself anything but a result of the others. 

 

If availability of developers is contingent on popularity (and further, popularity contingent on industry attitudes), to use an example already mentioned in Joachim’s post, then his simultaneous posit of library availability is if anything more contingent on the same popularity, so positing it as a cause and not a result, or merely a correlate, of popularity is incoherent.  We can go one step further, and demonstrate that even when large enterprises make something that works reliably available, they fail to promote and support it, which destroys the market for reliable tooling by simultaneously owning it while not promoting it, something IBM is particularly good at.  But IBM can’t (and if they can’t, neither can any other company) operate that way without the tacit agreement of the industry. 

 

To understand it in a more general way, software development has to be looked at in the context where it occurs, and how it’s determined to a large degree by that context, with a specific difference.  That difference is itself implicit in the context, i.e. capitalism, but only purely effective in software development. It’s a result of virtualization as an implicit goal of capitalism, and the disruptions implicit in the virtual but so far only realized completely in software.  In terms of that understanding, the analysis of virtualization and disruption as inherent to capitalism is better accomplished in Kapital than in any more recent work.

 

Or you can simply decide, as I’ve done recently, that working in ways and with tools that prevent doing good work in a reasonable timeframe isn’t worthwhile to you, no matter how popular those ways and tools might be, or what the posited reasons are, since at the end popularity is only insofar as it already is.  What those tools and methods are depends to a degree on your priorities, but if developers are engineers those priorities can’t be completely arbitrary.  Engineers are defined by their ability to make things work.

 

Software as virtual is inherently disruptive, and the software industry disrupts itself too often and too easily to build on anything. A further disruption caused by developers, as engineers, refusing to work with crap that doesn’t, i.e. insisting on being engineers, while in itself merely an aggravation of the disruptive tendencies, might have an inverse result.

 

Using a stable core of technologies as the basis for a more volatile set of products, in the way nearly every other industry does, is the best means we know of to build things both flexibly and reasonably efficiently.  The computer hardware industry is the extreme example of this, while the software industry is the extreme contradiction.

 

From: Pharo-users <pharo-users-bounces@...> on behalf of David Mason <dmason@...>
Reply-To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users@...>
Date: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 at 11:52 AM
To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users@...>
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

 

PharoJS is working to give you that mobile app/browser app experience.  As with others, we’re not there yet, but getting there.  See http://pharojs.org

 

The 67% loved means that 67% of people using Smalltalk (or perhaps have ever used it) want to continue - so it’s presumably a high percentage of a smallish number of people.

 

On 20 October 2017 at 03:23, jtuchel@... <jtuchel@...> wrote:

First of all: I’d say the question itself is not a question but an excuse. I am not arguing there are enough Smalltalkers or cheap ones. But I think the question is just a way of saying "we don’t want to do it for reasons that we ourselves cannot really express". If you are a good developer, learning Smalltalk is easy. If you are a good developer you’ve heard the sentence "we’ve taken the goos parts from x,y,z and Smalltalk" at least twice a year. So you most likely would like to learn it anyways.

A shortage of developers doesn’t exist. What exists is an unwillingness of companies to get people trained in a technology. If Smalltalk was cool and great in their opinion, they wouldn’t care. It’s that simple. As a consultant, I’ve heard that argument so often. Not ferom Startups, but from insurance companies, Banks or Car manufacturers who spend millions on useless, endless meetings and stuff instead of just hiring somebody to teach a couple of developers Smalltalk. It’s just a lie: the shortage of Smalltalk developers is not a problem.

And, to be honest: what is it we actually are better in by using Smalltalk?
Can we build cool looking web apps in extremely short time? No.
Can we build mobile Apps with little effort? No.
Does our Smalltalk ship lots of great libraries for all kinds of things that are not availabel in similar quality in any other language?
Are we lying when we say we are so extremely over-productive as compared to other languages?

I know, all that live debugging stuff and such is great and it is much faster to find & fix a bug in Smalltalk than in any other environment I’ve used so far. But that is really only true for business code. When I need to connect to things or want to build a modern GUI or a web application with a great look&feel, I am nowhere near productive, because I simply have to build my own stuff or learn how to use other external resources. If I want to build something for a mobile device, I will only hear that somebody somewhere has done it before. No docs, no proof, no ready-made tool for me.


Shortage of developers is not really the problem. If Smalltalk was as cool as we like to make ourselves believe, this problem would be non-existent. If somebody took out their iPad and told an audience: "We did this in Smalltalk in 40% of the time it would have taken in Swift", and if that something was a must-have for people, things would be much easier. But nobody has.


I am absolutely over-exaggerating, because I make my living with an SaaS product written in Smalltalk (not Pharo). I have lots of fun with Smalltalk and - as you - am convince that many parts of what we’ve done so far would’ve taken much longer or even be impossible in other languages. But the advantage was eaten by our extremely steep learning curve for web technologies and for building something that works almost as well as tools like Angular or jQuery Mobile.

Smalltalk is cool, and the day somebody shows me something like Google’s flutter in Smalltalk, I am ready to bet a lot on a bright future for Smalltalk. But until then, I’d say these arguments about productivity are just us trying to make ourselves believe we’re still the top of the food chain. We’ve done that for almost thirty years now and still aren’t ready to stop it. But we’ve been lying to ourselves and still do so.

I don’t think there is a point in discussing about the usefulness of a language using an argument like the number or ready-made developers. That is just an argument they know you can’t win. The real question is and should be: what is the benefit of using Smalltalk. Our productivity argument is a lie as soon as we have to build something that uses or runs on technology that has been invented after 1990.


Okay, shoot ;-)

Joachim


—
————————————————————————
Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel          mailto:jtuchel@...
Fliederweg 1                         http://www.objektfabrik.de
D-71640 Ludwigsburg                  http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com
Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0         Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1

 

 

— 

————————————————————————

Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel          mailto:jtuchel@...

Fliederweg 1                         http://www.objektfabrik.de

D-71640 Ludwigsburg                  http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com

Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0         Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1

From: [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2017 5:03 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

Elastic search JSON integration would be another good one. I heard there was a Kafka integration, is that true? Where could I find that, I used to use Kafka.

Kafka is a great event channel for input to BigData. Using Kafka, it is well in crafting a Lamda Architecture. Imagine Pharo where Storm resides.

<img border=0 id="_x0000_i1025" src="webkit-fake-url://502df029-af7a-484e-b157-43970b30a0a1/imagejpeg" alt="webkit-fake-url://502df029-af7a-484e-b157-43970b30a0a1/imagejpeg">

- HH

 How about Kerberos? Can we get a team to look closely at bringing integration for enterprise users? That would be helpful, or can you just put it behind a Kerberos wrapper? If that would work, collecting a demo, that could unlock more corporate wallets , for investment.

 

 

- HH

 

 

On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 16:41, henry <henry@...> wrote:

How is there no steering committee to accumulate wrapping 3rd party libraries in Alien to gain benefits of code in other languages? Do not assume that code is not extremely well written in that particular language for that particular task and that particular deployment mechanism.

 

Can Pharo be called as a shared library from Java JNA?

 

- HH

 

 

On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 15:47, Andrew Glynn <aglynn42@...> wrote:

I’m not claiming I don’t or haven’t been affected, only that I no long allow myself to be.  Does that cause issues?  Of course.  But I’d rather deal with those than do things I don’t enjoy.  However I only got to that point after 26 years in the industry, so I don’t expect that everyone will feel that way.

 

Cheers

Andrew

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: jtuchel@...
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 8:14 AM
To: pharo-users@...
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

 

Andrew,

Am 26.10.17 um 00:46 schrieb Andrew Glynn:

There’s other questions that are relevant to me:

I am glad you opened your words with this sentence. Other peoples’ mileages may vary a lot.

> Do I give a f*** about cool looking web apps?  No, I don’t use web apps if in any way I can avoid it.

 

Some people can’t. I can’t. I am making my living with a web based application. And I like it.

 

> Do I give a f*** about mobile apps?  No, the screen’s too small to read anything longer than a twit, or anyone with anything worthwhile to say.>

So you are in the lucky position that neither mobile nor web nor integration matters to you or you have enough resources to do all that stuff yourself. I am envyous. I need to build web pages and people ask me whether we can ship an iPhone App. I do customer-facing stuff and sex sells much more than we like to think.

Your comments on the crappiness of libs in other languages is a great fit for Smalltalk. Not invented here, therefor rubbish. We came a long way with this way of thinking. But these rubbish makers dance circles around us while we try to do our first hello world for an iPad. They laugh at us when we try to reinvent MVC on top of Seaside (although MVC is closesly related to Smalltalk). Because they are back home and watch Netflix while we debug our homegrown base libraries that are, of course, much better than theirs because they are written in Smalltalk.

I am not arguing that maintaining Smalltalk code is far superior to most technolgies out there. But depending on the needs of our projects we have to learn and use those crappy technologies to accomplish what they offer. Because, sometimes (especially if you have to pay bills), an existing library with flaws is better than none.

So if I have to use Javascript or C# or Dart or Swift to do the frontend part of my system, is there still much benefit in using these together with Smalltalk? Or is there - at least from a manager’s point of view - not a reasonable amount of sense in choosing the frontend technology also for the logic and compensate the loss in productivity with a gain in avoided complexity?

Your answer delivers a lot of food for thought, but I don’t buy all of it. And I don’t expect you to buy all of mine ;-)


Joachim

 

 

Do I give a f*** about the number of libraries in other languages?  No, because most of them are crap in every language I’ve had to work in, and the base languages are crap so they have to keep changing radically, and libraries and frameworks therefore also have to and never get any better. The few that are worthwhile I can almost always use from Smalltalk without a problem (read, Blender, ACT-R and Synapse, since every other library/framework I’ve used outside Smalltalk has been a waste of time). 

 

Do I give a f*** about implementing a complex piece of machine learning software in 22 hours, compared to 3 months for the Java version?  Well, actually yes, I do, because that was 3 months of my life down the toilet for something that is too slow to be useful in Java.

 

Any argument depends on your priorities. I’ve written tons of web apps, because I needed to get paid.  I’ve written better shitty mobile apps than the average shitty mobile apps.  However, I’m not going to do any of that any longer in crap that never improves, because after 26 years the irritability it produces is more than it’s worth. 

 

A few weeks ago, a recruiter that specializes in Smalltalk called me about a job, although they were well aware I live 1500 miles away from the city I lived in when I had worked through them, to see if I’d be willing to move back there for a job.  That sounds like another ‘there aren’t enough Smalltalk developers", but it wasn’t, because the job wasn’t writing Smalltalk.  It was writing Java.

 

The person hiring, though, wouldn’t look at anyone who didn’t write Smalltalk, because "people who grew up with Java don’t know how to write code".  I don’t agree with that, I’ve known a (very few) good Java developers.  I would say, though, that I’ve known far more incompetent ones than good ones, and I can’t think of any incompetent Smalltalk developers off the top of my head. 

 

Nor have I ever heard a developer in Smalltalk, or Haskell, or LISP, or even C, complain about how hard maintaining state is or coming up with various hacks to avoid it, which seems to be the main point of every JavaScript based ‘technology’.  An application is by definition a state-machine, which implies plenty about JS developers on the whole.

 

If you’re a good developer you can write good code in (nearly) anything.  My question then is why would you want to write in crap?  The better question is why aren’t there more good developers in any language?

 

Every project I have been able to do in Smalltalk, though, has had one thing in common, the "shit has to work".  Companies do use it, in fact I could name 4 large enterprises I’ve worked for who’ve written their own dialects, and they all use it only when "shit has to work".  They know it’s more productive, they also know using it for more things would increase the availability of Smalltalk developers. 

 

Why do they not do it?  One reason, though it takes a while to recognize it, because management doesn’t admit even to themselves why they do it, or not very often.  Being inefficient, as long as it doesn’t ‘really’ matter, is an advantage to large enterprises because they have resources smaller competitors don’t. 

 

Why don’t their competitors do it?  Because they can’t see past an hourly rate, what’s fashionable, or just new, or because their customers can’t.  Put more generally, average stupidity that isn’t corrected by the market.  Fashion affects smaller companies more than larger ones, because they can’t afford a few customers walking away because they wanted an app in Electron, even if they can’t give any relevant reason for wanting it, and even the samples on the Electron site don’t work. 

 

Enterprises can, and do use Smalltalk when it matters.  When it doesn’t, it’s to their advantage to promote things that are inefficient, buggy and unreliable.

 

Cost is relevant, but not in the simple way people look at things.  A crucial but rarely mentioned perspective on its relevance is that while Java based software runs TV set top boxes, Smalltalk based software runs things like medical equipment, automated defense systems, tanks, etc.  Cost becomes largely irrelevant when ‘shit has to work’. 

 

Productivity is primarily relevant to less talented developers, in an inversely sense, since unproductive environments and attitudes have a leveling tendency in general, and more specifically make accomplishing what the less talented are capable of in any environment sufficiently laborious for them to have a role.  Capability in Smalltalk, as implied by the person hiring for the Java role I mentioned, is a fairly decent means of judging whether someone is a so-so developer or a good one.

 

The productivity argument is realistically only relevant in the context of an already higher hourly cost.  Given that it is relevant at that point, companies that know Smalltalk is more productive would use it outside things that have to be 100%, if their own productivity were relevant to the same degree that competitors’ productivity is inversely relevant.

 

All these ways of looking at it are contingent perspectives though.  Yes, if the number of libraries is relevant to you, Smalltalk is less attractive, but that’s only a contingent phenomenon based on the relative popularity of Java and JavaScript, as a result it can’t be used as explanatory for that popularity.  All the ways of looking at it that are fully determinate are determinate via contingencies of that kind, which for the most part are precisely the other perspectives, including productivity, cost, availability of developers, etc.  None of them is in itself anything but a result of the others. 

 

If availability of developers is contingent on popularity (and further, popularity contingent on industry attitudes), to use an example already mentioned in Joachim’s post, then his simultaneous posit of library availability is if anything more contingent on the same popularity, so positing it as a cause and not a result, or merely a correlate, of popularity is incoherent.  We can go one step further, and demonstrate that even when large enterprises make something that works reliably available, they fail to promote and support it, which destroys the market for reliable tooling by simultaneously owning it while not promoting it, something IBM is particularly good at.  But IBM can’t (and if they can’t, neither can any other company) operate that way without the tacit agreement of the industry. 

 

To understand it in a more general way, software development has to be looked at in the context where it occurs, and how it’s determined to a large degree by that context, with a specific difference.  That difference is itself implicit in the context, i.e. capitalism, but only purely effective in software development. It’s a result of virtualization as an implicit goal of capitalism, and the disruptions implicit in the virtual but so far only realized completely in software.  In terms of that understanding, the analysis of virtualization and disruption as inherent to capitalism is better accomplished in Kapital than in any more recent work.

 

Or you can simply decide, as I’ve done recently, that working in ways and with tools that prevent doing good work in a reasonable timeframe isn’t worthwhile to you, no matter how popular those ways and tools might be, or what the posited reasons are, since at the end popularity is only insofar as it already is.  What those tools and methods are depends to a degree on your priorities, but if developers are engineers those priorities can’t be completely arbitrary.  Engineers are defined by their ability to make things work.

 

Software as virtual is inherently disruptive, and the software industry disrupts itself too often and too easily to build on anything. A further disruption caused by developers, as engineers, refusing to work with crap that doesn’t, i.e. insisting on being engineers, while in itself merely an aggravation of the disruptive tendencies, might have an inverse result.

 

Using a stable core of technologies as the basis for a more volatile set of products, in the way nearly every other industry does, is the best means we know of to build things both flexibly and reasonably efficiently.  The computer hardware industry is the extreme example of this, while the software industry is the extreme contradiction.

 

From: Pharo-users <pharo-users-bounces@...> on behalf of David Mason <dmason@...>
Reply-To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users@...>
Date: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 at 11:52 AM
To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users@...>
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

 

PharoJS is working to give you that mobile app/browser app experience.  As with others, we’re not there yet, but getting there.  See http://pharojs.org

 

The 67% loved means that 67% of people using Smalltalk (or perhaps have ever used it) want to continue - so it’s presumably a high percentage of a smallish number of people.

 

On 20 October 2017 at 03:23, jtuchel@... <jtuchel@...> wrote:

First of all: I’d say the question itself is not a question but an excuse. I am not arguing there are enough Smalltalkers or cheap ones. But I think the question is just a way of saying "we don’t want to do it for reasons that we ourselves cannot really express". If you are a good developer, learning Smalltalk is easy. If you are a good developer you’ve heard the sentence "we’ve taken the goos parts from x,y,z and Smalltalk" at least twice a year. So you most likely would like to learn it anyways.

A shortage of developers doesn’t exist. What exists is an unwillingness of companies to get people trained in a technology. If Smalltalk was cool and great in their opinion, they wouldn’t care. It’s that simple. As a consultant, I’ve heard that argument so often. Not ferom Startups, but from insurance companies, Banks or Car manufacturers who spend millions on useless, endless meetings and stuff instead of just hiring somebody to teach a couple of developers Smalltalk. It’s just a lie: the shortage of Smalltalk developers is not a problem.

And, to be honest: what is it we actually are better in by using Smalltalk?
Can we build cool looking web apps in extremely short time? No.
Can we build mobile Apps with little effort? No.
Does our Smalltalk ship lots of great libraries for all kinds of things that are not availabel in similar quality in any other language?
Are we lying when we say we are so extremely over-productive as compared to other languages?

I know, all that live debugging stuff and such is great and it is much faster to find & fix a bug in Smalltalk than in any other environment I’ve used so far. But that is really only true for business code. When I need to connect to things or want to build a modern GUI or a web application with a great look&feel, I am nowhere near productive, because I simply have to build my own stuff or learn how to use other external resources. If I want to build something for a mobile device, I will only hear that somebody somewhere has done it before. No docs, no proof, no ready-made tool for me.


Shortage of developers is not really the problem. If Smalltalk was as cool as we like to make ourselves believe, this problem would be non-existent. If somebody took out their iPad and told an audience: "We did this in Smalltalk in 40% of the time it would have taken in Swift", and if that something was a must-have for people, things would be much easier. But nobody has.


I am absolutely over-exaggerating, because I make my living with an SaaS product written in Smalltalk (not Pharo). I have lots of fun with Smalltalk and - as you - am convince that many parts of what we’ve done so far would’ve taken much longer or even be impossible in other languages. But the advantage was eaten by our extremely steep learning curve for web technologies and for building something that works almost as well as tools like Angular or jQuery Mobile.

Smalltalk is cool, and the day somebody shows me something like Google’s flutter in Smalltalk, I am ready to bet a lot on a bright future for Smalltalk. But until then, I’d say these arguments about productivity are just us trying to make ourselves believe we’re still the top of the food chain. We’ve done that for almost thirty years now and still aren’t ready to stop it. But we’ve been lying to ourselves and still do so.

I don’t think there is a point in discussing about the usefulness of a language using an argument like the number or ready-made developers. That is just an argument they know you can’t win. The real question is and should be: what is the benefit of using Smalltalk. Our productivity argument is a lie as soon as we have to build something that uses or runs on technology that has been invented after 1990.


Okay, shoot ;-)

Joachim


—
————————————————————————
Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel          mailto:jtuchel@...
Fliederweg 1                         http://www.objektfabrik.de
D-71640 Ludwigsburg                  http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com
Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0         Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1

 

 

— 

————————————————————————

Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel          mailto:jtuchel@...

Fliederweg 1                         http://www.objektfabrik.de

D-71640 Ludwigsburg                  http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com

Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0         Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1

From: [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2017 5:03 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

Elastic search JSON integration would be another good one. I heard there was a Kafka integration, is that true? Where could I find that, I used to use Kafka.

Kafka is a great event channel for input to BigData. Using Kafka, it is well in crafting a Lamda Architecture. Imagine Pharo where Storm resides.

<img border=0 id="_x0000_i1025" src="webkit-fake-url://502df029-af7a-484e-b157-43970b30a0a1/imagejpeg" alt="webkit-fake-url://502df029-af7a-484e-b157-43970b30a0a1/imagejpeg">

- HH

 How about Kerberos? Can we get a team to look closely at bringing integration for enterprise users? That would be helpful, or can you just put it behind a Kerberos wrapper? If that would work, collecting a demo, that could unlock more corporate wallets , for investment.

 

 

- HH

 

 

On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 16:41, henry <henry@...> wrote:

How is there no steering committee to accumulate wrapping 3rd party libraries in Alien to gain benefits of code in other languages? Do not assume that code is not extremely well written in that particular language for that particular task and that particular deployment mechanism.

 

Can Pharo be called as a shared library from Java JNA?

 

- HH

 

 

On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 15:47, Andrew Glynn <aglynn42@...> wrote:

I’m not claiming I don’t or haven’t been affected, only that I no long allow myself to be.  Does that cause issues?  Of course.  But I’d rather deal with those than do things I don’t enjoy.  However I only got to that point after 26 years in the industry, so I don’t expect that everyone will feel that way.

 

Cheers

Andrew

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: jtuchel@...
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 8:14 AM
To: pharo-users@...
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

 

Andrew,

Am 26.10.17 um 00:46 schrieb Andrew Glynn:

There’s other questions that are relevant to me:

I am glad you opened your words with this sentence. Other peoples’ mileages may vary a lot.

> Do I give a f*** about cool looking web apps?  No, I don’t use web apps if in any way I can avoid it.

 

Some people can’t. I can’t. I am making my living with a web based application. And I like it.

 

> Do I give a f*** about mobile apps?  No, the screen’s too small to read anything longer than a twit, or anyone with anything worthwhile to say.>

So you are in the lucky position that neither mobile nor web nor integration matters to you or you have enough resources to do all that stuff yourself. I am envyous. I need to build web pages and people ask me whether we can ship an iPhone App. I do customer-facing stuff and sex sells much more than we like to think.

Your comments on the crappiness of libs in other languages is a great fit for Smalltalk. Not invented here, therefor rubbish. We came a long way with this way of thinking. But these rubbish makers dance circles around us while we try to do our first hello world for an iPad. They laugh at us when we try to reinvent MVC on top of Seaside (although MVC is closesly related to Smalltalk). Because they are back home and watch Netflix while we debug our homegrown base libraries that are, of course, much better than theirs because they are written in Smalltalk.

I am not arguing that maintaining Smalltalk code is far superior to most technolgies out there. But depending on the needs of our projects we have to learn and use those crappy technologies to accomplish what they offer. Because, sometimes (especially if you have to pay bills), an existing library with flaws is better than none.

So if I have to use Javascript or C# or Dart or Swift to do the frontend part of my system, is there still much benefit in using these together with Smalltalk? Or is there - at least from a manager’s point of view - not a reasonable amount of sense in choosing the frontend technology also for the logic and compensate the loss in productivity with a gain in avoided complexity?

Your answer delivers a lot of food for thought, but I don’t buy all of it. And I don’t expect you to buy all of mine ;-)


Joachim

 

 

Do I give a f*** about the number of libraries in other languages?  No, because most of them are crap in every language I’ve had to work in, and the base languages are crap so they have to keep changing radically, and libraries and frameworks therefore also have to and never get any better. The few that are worthwhile I can almost always use from Smalltalk without a problem (read, Blender, ACT-R and Synapse, since every other library/framework I’ve used outside Smalltalk has been a waste of time). 

 

Do I give a f*** about implementing a complex piece of machine learning software in 22 hours, compared to 3 months for the Java version?  Well, actually yes, I do, because that was 3 months of my life down the toilet for something that is too slow to be useful in Java.

 

Any argument depends on your priorities. I’ve written tons of web apps, because I needed to get paid.  I’ve written better shitty mobile apps than the average shitty mobile apps.  However, I’m not going to do any of that any longer in crap that never improves, because after 26 years the irritability it produces is more than it’s worth. 

 

A few weeks ago, a recruiter that specializes in Smalltalk called me about a job, although they were well aware I live 1500 miles away from the city I lived in when I had worked through them, to see if I’d be willing to move back there for a job.  That sounds like another ‘there aren’t enough Smalltalk developers", but it wasn’t, because the job wasn’t writing Smalltalk.  It was writing Java.

 

The person hiring, though, wouldn’t look at anyone who didn’t write Smalltalk, because "people who grew up with Java don’t know how to write code".  I don’t agree with that, I’ve known a (very few) good Java developers.  I would say, though, that I’ve known far more incompetent ones than good ones, and I can’t think of any incompetent Smalltalk developers off the top of my head. 

 

Nor have I ever heard a developer in Smalltalk, or Haskell, or LISP, or even C, complain about how hard maintaining state is or coming up with various hacks to avoid it, which seems to be the main point of every JavaScript based ‘technology’.  An application is by definition a state-machine, which implies plenty about JS developers on the whole.

 

If you’re a good developer you can write good code in (nearly) anything.  My question then is why would you want to write in crap?  The better question is why aren’t there more good developers in any language?

 

Every project I have been able to do in Smalltalk, though, has had one thing in common, the "shit has to work".  Companies do use it, in fact I could name 4 large enterprises I’ve worked for who’ve written their own dialects, and they all use it only when "shit has to work".  They know it’s more productive, they also know using it for more things would increase the availability of Smalltalk developers. 

 

Why do they not do it?  One reason, though it takes a while to recognize it, because management doesn’t admit even to themselves why they do it, or not very often.  Being inefficient, as long as it doesn’t ‘really’ matter, is an advantage to large enterprises because they have resources smaller competitors don’t. 

 

Why don’t their competitors do it?  Because they can’t see past an hourly rate, what’s fashionable, or just new, or because their customers can’t.  Put more generally, average stupidity that isn’t corrected by the market.  Fashion affects smaller companies more than larger ones, because they can’t afford a few customers walking away because they wanted an app in Electron, even if they can’t give any relevant reason for wanting it, and even the samples on the Electron site don’t work. 

 

Enterprises can, and do use Smalltalk when it matters.  When it doesn’t, it’s to their advantage to promote things that are inefficient, buggy and unreliable.

 

Cost is relevant, but not in the simple way people look at things.  A crucial but rarely mentioned perspective on its relevance is that while Java based software runs TV set top boxes, Smalltalk based software runs things like medical equipment, automated defense systems, tanks, etc.  Cost becomes largely irrelevant when ‘shit has to work’. 

 

Productivity is primarily relevant to less talented developers, in an inversely sense, since unproductive environments and attitudes have a leveling tendency in general, and more specifically make accomplishing what the less talented are capable of in any environment sufficiently laborious for them to have a role.  Capability in Smalltalk, as implied by the person hiring for the Java role I mentioned, is a fairly decent means of judging whether someone is a so-so developer or a good one.

 

The productivity argument is realistically only relevant in the context of an already higher hourly cost.  Given that it is relevant at that point, companies that know Smalltalk is more productive would use it outside things that have to be 100%, if their own productivity were relevant to the same degree that competitors’ productivity is inversely relevant.

 

All these ways of looking at it are contingent perspectives though.  Yes, if the number of libraries is relevant to you, Smalltalk is less attractive, but that’s only a contingent phenomenon based on the relative popularity of Java and JavaScript, as a result it can’t be used as explanatory for that popularity.  All the ways of looking at it that are fully determinate are determinate via contingencies of that kind, which for the most part are precisely the other perspectives, including productivity, cost, availability of developers, etc.  None of them is in itself anything but a result of the others. 

 

If availability of developers is contingent on popularity (and further, popularity contingent on industry attitudes), to use an example already mentioned in Joachim’s post, then his simultaneous posit of library availability is if anything more contingent on the same popularity, so positing it as a cause and not a result, or merely a correlate, of popularity is incoherent.  We can go one step further, and demonstrate that even when large enterprises make something that works reliably available, they fail to promote and support it, which destroys the market for reliable tooling by simultaneously owning it while not promoting it, something IBM is particularly good at.  But IBM can’t (and if they can’t, neither can any other company) operate that way without the tacit agreement of the industry. 

 

To understand it in a more general way, software development has to be looked at in the context where it occurs, and how it’s determined to a large degree by that context, with a specific difference.  That difference is itself implicit in the context, i.e. capitalism, but only purely effective in software development. It’s a result of virtualization as an implicit goal of capitalism, and the disruptions implicit in the virtual but so far only realized completely in software.  In terms of that understanding, the analysis of virtualization and disruption as inherent to capitalism is better accomplished in Kapital than in any more recent work.

 

Or you can simply decide, as I’ve done recently, that working in ways and with tools that prevent doing good work in a reasonable timeframe isn’t worthwhile to you, no matter how popular those ways and tools might be, or what the posited reasons are, since at the end popularity is only insofar as it already is.  What those tools and methods are depends to a degree on your priorities, but if developers are engineers those priorities can’t be completely arbitrary.  Engineers are defined by their ability to make things work.

 

Software as virtual is inherently disruptive, and the software industry disrupts itself too often and too easily to build on anything. A further disruption caused by developers, as engineers, refusing to work with crap that doesn’t, i.e. insisting on being engineers, while in itself merely an aggravation of the disruptive tendencies, might have an inverse result.

 

Using a stable core of technologies as the basis for a more volatile set of products, in the way nearly every other industry does, is the best means we know of to build things both flexibly and reasonably efficiently.  The computer hardware industry is the extreme example of this, while the software industry is the extreme contradiction.

 

From: Pharo-users <pharo-users-bounces@...> on behalf of David Mason <dmason@...>
Reply-To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users@...>
Date: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 at 11:52 AM
To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users@...>
Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

 

PharoJS is working to give you that mobile app/browser app experience.  As with others, we’re not there yet, but getting there.  See http://pharojs.org

 

The 67% loved means that 67% of people using Smalltalk (or perhaps have ever used it) want to continue - so it’s presumably a high percentage of a smallish number of people.

 

On 20 October 2017 at 03:23, jtuchel@... <jtuchel@...> wrote:

First of all: I’d say the question itself is not a question but an excuse. I am not arguing there are enough Smalltalkers or cheap ones. But I think the question is just a way of saying "we don’t want to do it for reasons that we ourselves cannot really express". If you are a good developer, learning Smalltalk is easy. If you are a good developer you’ve heard the sentence "we’ve taken the goos parts from x,y,z and Smalltalk" at least twice a year. So you most likely would like to learn it anyways.

A shortage of developers doesn’t exist. What exists is an unwillingness of companies to get people trained in a technology. If Smalltalk was cool and great in their opinion, they wouldn’t care. It’s that simple. As a consultant, I’ve heard that argument so often. Not ferom Startups, but from insurance companies, Banks or Car manufacturers who spend millions on useless, endless meetings and stuff instead of just hiring somebody to teach a couple of developers Smalltalk. It’s just a lie: the shortage of Smalltalk developers is not a problem.

And, to be honest: what is it we actually are better in by using Smalltalk?
Can we build cool looking web apps in extremely short time? No.
Can we build mobile Apps with little effort? No.
Does our Smalltalk ship lots of great libraries for all kinds of things that are not availabel in similar quality in any other language?
Are we lying when we say we are so extremely over-productive as compared to other languages?

I know, all that live debugging stuff and such is great and it is much faster to find & fix a bug in Smalltalk than in any other environment I’ve used so far. But that is really only true for business code. When I need to connect to things or want to build a modern GUI or a web application with a great look&feel, I am nowhere near productive, because I simply have to build my own stuff or learn how to use other external resources. If I want to build something for a mobile device, I will only hear that somebody somewhere has done it before. No docs, no proof, no ready-made tool for me.


Shortage of developers is not really the problem. If Smalltalk was as cool as we like to make ourselves believe, this problem would be non-existent. If somebody took out their iPad and told an audience: "We did this in Smalltalk in 40% of the time it would have taken in Swift", and if that something was a must-have for people, things would be much easier. But nobody has.


I am absolutely over-exaggerating, because I make my living with an SaaS product written in Smalltalk (not Pharo). I have lots of fun with Smalltalk and - as you - am convince that many parts of what we’ve done so far would’ve taken much longer or even be impossible in other languages. But the advantage was eaten by our extremely steep learning curve for web technologies and for building something that works almost as well as tools like Angular or jQuery Mobile.

Smalltalk is cool, and the day somebody shows me something like Google’s flutter in Smalltalk, I am ready to bet a lot on a bright future for Smalltalk. But until then, I’d say these arguments about productivity are just us trying to make ourselves believe we’re still the top of the food chain. We’ve done that for almost thirty years now and still aren’t ready to stop it. But we’ve been lying to ourselves and still do so.

I don’t think there is a point in discussing about the usefulness of a language using an argument like the number or ready-made developers. That is just an argument they know you can’t win. The real question is and should be: what is the benefit of using Smalltalk. Our productivity argument is a lie as soon as we have to build something that uses or runs on technology that has been invented after 1990.


Okay, shoot ;-)

Joachim


—
————————————————————————
Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel          mailto:jtuchel@...
Fliederweg 1                         http://www.objektfabrik.de
D-71640 Ludwigsburg                  http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com
Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0         Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1

 

 

— 

————————————————————————

Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel          mailto:jtuchel@...

Fliederweg 1                         http://www.objektfabrik.de

D-71640 Ludwigsburg                  http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com

Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0         Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1