Smalltalk hosting ...

> Hi Norbert,
>
> I disagree entirely. This thread isn't sad at all; it shows how
> passionate this community is about Smalltalk and that people want to
> talk about how to share this passion with as many others as possible.
>
> Suggesting that one can do marketing without talking about marketing
> is, in my view, nonsensical. People are naturally free to do whatever
> they like, but the fact that they are having this discussion suggests
> to me that they are not quite sure what to do and would like to
> discuss ideas with others. They would like to focus their passion on
> ideas they believe will be successful, rather than doing whatever
> first comes to their minds. Presumably this discussions will involve
> some disagreement rather than a big love fest of mutual affirmation.
> "How can we dare even to speak against someones ideas?"? I find that a
> very very strange sentiment...
>
> Since most of use here are developers, I think we are not used to
> thinking about the issues of markets and messages and can therefore
> benefit from all the groupthink we can get. Obviously writing a CMS is
> *an* idea - that's by definition; but this particular idea was being
> discussed in the very specific context of making Smalltalk wildly
> popular. Do you think it will?
>
> I'm not 110% certain of anything but looking at the idea of a CMS:
> * there are many established players already in the market, with
> mindshare and a big headstart
> * there are probably thousands of plugins already written for the
> existing platforms
> * we are less likely to be successful precisely *because* we would be
> using an uncommon language
> * our deployment story is still poor
> * users of a CMS are generally not going to be users of its underlying
> programming language
> * Smalltalk is really good at modelling complex domains and CMSes (at
> least the popular ones) are really quite simple - this isn't an area
> where Smalltalk is going to give a huge advantage over competing
> languages
>
> The award-winning Cmsbox is evidence that you can create a great CMS
> in Smalltalk. But that's not the point. You don't need to read The
> Tipping Point to see that we would be entering a saturated market with
> little competitive advantage; even if we were successful, we'd have
> been largely targeting the wrong people.
>
> (By the way, your suggestion of attracting developers with good tools
> sounds like one reasonable focus. From what I've seen, good developer
> tools are in fact still "market breaking" - this used to be one of
> Smalltalk's strengths and is a perfect opportunity to borrow,
> integrate, and innovate...)
>
> Julian
>
> On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 11:48 PM, Norbert Hartl <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> This is a very sad thread. It started with a nice idea to talk about and it became more ridiculous with every single reply. I don't understand why everybody is so 110% confident what is the right thing to do if it turns out that we are all completely clueless? How can we dare even to speak against someones ideas? We don't have tons of ideas and need to select. And we don't need _one_ idea!
>>
>> Writing a user friendly CMS is not _the_ idea but it is an idea. It doesn't help to shift perspective either to the low level side, the business side or the end user side. It is an idea and it is good. Looking at the current smalltalk development than I can just state that it flurishes at least in the open source corner. From an end user perspective neither pharo, seaside, pier or FFI has a value in itself. But all of these are a good foundation to enable people with ideas to produce wonderful products. I think to do marketing you need something to show. And if we are not the ones with the market breaking ideas than we should focus building the good tools and attract developers. Good applications will follow.
>>
>> Yes, marketing is good. Talking about how marketing should be done is not. Analyzing markets, building a product for it and advertize might work but it is a corporate view. Open source devlopment works the opposite way most of the time. So what is better? Isn't that dependent on the fact if you are inside or outside corporate wise. Reading 'the tipping point' is sure a good idea but I observed it made a lot of people think they know "how success works" and they just need to find any idea/product that is willing to fit in. But you can't copy success stories easily.
>>
>> So we all should focus more on what we can _do_ instead of distracting the motivaton of those that are willing to do something. I'm not a professional smalltalker but I spend a vast amount of my (spare) time in a lot of things smalltalk and try to build my small business. Without having faith, love and passion I could do J2EE instead.
>>
>> ranting end.
>>
>> Norbert
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

> Well folks,
>
> Strategic discussions are nice and welcome, but related to subject of
> this thread, Nick Ager recently posted link to his very nice blog post
> with included tutorial how to host Seaside app on EC2.
>
> Now, raise your hands, who has tweeted, buzzed, commented or linked to
> this blog post.
>
> Davorin Rusevljan
> http://www.cloud208.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

> Dear Goran et al.,
> I agree with Julian's points and yours.
>
> Göran Krampe wrote:
>
>> IMHO a more exciting discussion can start if someone says "I want to
>> do X" and then see what people think of it and if they want to join in
>> and so on.
>
> So let's return the thread to the three proposals actually made so far
> IIRC.
>
> The first two are complementary - we could do both:

>
> Joachim Tuchel wrote:
>>
>> ...
>> I'm afraid the idea of having to provide a killer app that will show the
>> world how cool Smalltalk is will not work. If the app is great, nobody
>> will ask: What's it made with? My blog is hosted on Wordpress.com, and I
>> must admit I neither have an idea nor care what language it's written in.
>> My time is too limited to care.
>>
>
> I disagree on this one.  There are a lot of similarities between
> Smallthought Systems/DabbleDB/Seaside/Squeak and 37Signals/Rails/Ruby where
> both have somehow kick-started a wider community who did care.
>
>
> Joachim Tuchel wrote:
>>
>> But if we manage to make our Smalltalk environments a nice place to stay
>> at for programmers, we can probably attract more Smalltalkers.
>>
>
> Agree

> Suggesting that one can do marketing without talking about marketing
> is, in my view, nonsensical. People are naturally free to do whatever
> they like, but the fact that they are having this discussion suggests
> to me that they are not quite sure what to do and would like to
> discuss ideas with others. They would like to focus their passion on
> ideas they believe will be successful, rather than doing whatever
> first comes to their minds. Presumably this discussions will involve
> some disagreement rather than a big love fest of mutual affirmation.
> "How can we dare even to speak against someones ideas?"? I find that a
> very very strange sentiment...
>

> I'm not 110% certain of anything but looking at the idea of a CMS:
> * there are many established players already in the market, with
> mindshare and a big headstart
> * there are probably thousands of plugins already written for the
> existing platforms
> * we are less likely to be successful precisely *because* we would be
> using an uncommon language
> * our deployment story is still poor
> * users of a CMS are generally not going to be users of its underlying
> programming language
> * Smalltalk is really good at modelling complex domains and CMSes (at
> least the popular ones) are really quite simple - this isn't an area
> where Smalltalk is going to give a huge advantage over competing
> languages
>

> (By the way, your suggestion of attracting developers with good tools
> sounds like one reasonable focus. From what I've seen, good developer
> tools are in fact still "market breaking" - this used to be one of
> Smalltalk's strengths and is a perfect opportunity to borrow,
> integrate, and innovate...)
>
> Julian
>
> On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 11:48 PM, Norbert Hartl <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> This is a very sad thread. It started with a nice idea to talk about and it became more ridiculous with every single reply. I don't understand why everybody is so 110% confident what is the right thing to do if it turns out that we are all completely clueless? How can we dare even to speak against someones ideas? We don't have tons of ideas and need to select. And we don't need _one_ idea!
>>
>> Writing a user friendly CMS is not _the_ idea but it is an idea. It doesn't help to shift perspective either to the low level side, the business side or the end user side. It is an idea and it is good. Looking at the current smalltalk development than I can just state that it flurishes at least in the open source corner. From an end user perspective neither pharo, seaside, pier or FFI has a value in itself. But all of these are a good foundation to enable people with ideas to produce wonderful products. I think to do marketing you need something to show. And if we are not the ones with the market breaking ideas than we should focus building the good tools and attract developers. Good applications will follow.
>>
>> Yes, marketing is good. Talking about how marketing should be done is not. Analyzing markets, building a product for it and advertize might work but it is a corporate view. Open source devlopment works the opposite way most of the time. So what is better? Isn't that dependent on the fact if you are inside or outside corporate wise. Reading 'the tipping point' is sure a good idea but I observed it made a lot of people think they know "how success works" and they just need to find any idea/product that is willing to fit in. But you can't copy success stories easily.
>>
>> So we all should focus more on what we can _do_ instead of distracting the motivaton of those that are willing to do something. I'm not a professional smalltalker but I spend a vast amount of my (spare) time in a lot of things smalltalk and try to build my small business. Without having faith, love and passion I could do J2EE instead.
>>
>> ranting end.
>>
>> Norbert
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

>
> Am 22.03.2011 um 10:23 schrieb Julian Fitzell:
>
>> Hi Norbert,
>>
>> I disagree entirely. This thread isn't sad at all; it shows how
>> passionate this community is about Smalltalk and that people want to
>> talk about how to share this passion with as many others as possible.
>>
> Ok, it seems we just have different definitions of passion.
>
>> Suggesting that one can do marketing without talking about marketing
>> is, in my view, nonsensical. People are naturally free to do whatever
>> they like, but the fact that they are having this discussion suggests
>> to me that they are not quite sure what to do and would like to
>> discuss ideas with others. They would like to focus their passion on
>> ideas they believe will be successful, rather than doing whatever
>> first comes to their minds. Presumably this discussions will involve
>> some disagreement rather than a big love fest of mutual affirmation.
>> "How can we dare even to speak against someones ideas?"? I find that a
>> very very strange sentiment...
>>
> It is also quite obvious that you need to talk if you are not doing it alone (or by definition if you like that better). So I didn't mean it is forbidden to talk about marketing. And to be honest if you say "...are not quite sure what to do..." and you find "How can we dare even to speak against someones ideas?" a strange sentiment than I'm totally out of bussiness explaining it.
>
>> Since most of use here are developers, I think we are not used to
>> thinking about the issues of markets and messages and can therefore
>> benefit from all the groupthink we can get. Obviously writing a CMS is
>> *an* idea - that's by definition; but this particular idea was being
>> discussed in the very specific context of making Smalltalk wildly
>> popular. Do you think it will?
>>
> Yes, I do. I don't believe there will be a single killer app that rejuvenates the investment in smalltalk. A lot of effort is to convince other people. And for that you often need to prove that you can do "that" also. I think it is good to have a portfolio of applications that you just can show. That is a language people understand that are not technical experienced (which we all agree is the majority).
> My assumption here is that we are not only talking about end-user products but about doing services for customers which build end-user products.
>
>> I'm not 110% certain of anything but looking at the idea of a CMS:
>> * there are many established players already in the market, with
>> mindshare and a big headstart
>> * there are probably thousands of plugins already written for the
>> existing platforms
>> * we are less likely to be successful precisely *because* we would be
>> using an uncommon language
>> * our deployment story is still poor
>> * users of a CMS are generally not going to be users of its underlying
>> programming language
>> * Smalltalk is really good at modelling complex domains and CMSes (at
>> least the popular ones) are really quite simple - this isn't an area
>> where Smalltalk is going to give a huge advantage over competing
>> languages
>>
> That sounds like a quick market/risk analysis and would be the explanation why you would not invest money in this idea. But do you have an alternative what we _can_ do?
> If I would be a startup company I would agree completely with your reasoning. You need some "unique selling point" "something outstanding" to be able to be succesful on the market.
>
> My point is that you need enablers. Why I'm defending the CMS idea is not that I think the CMS to have is the final goal. But if we are talking about CMSes we are talking about web technologies. Integration of multiple services in a single html page is not that easy (making it _one_ application). If you can live with iframes and same domain origin policy than it is not a problem. If not you need to integrate things more tight. A CMS is just this placeholder for me that enables certain tasks to do with smalltalk in that case web technologies.
>
>> The award-winning Cmsbox is evidence that you can create a great CMS
>> in Smalltalk. But that's not the point. You don't need to read The
>> Tipping Point to see that we would be entering a saturated market with
>> little competitive advantage; even if we were successful, we'd have
>> been largely targeting the wrong people.
>>
> I don't understand the last sentence.
>
> Norbert
>
>> (By the way, your suggestion of attracting developers with good tools
>> sounds like one reasonable focus. From what I've seen, good developer
>> tools are in fact still "market breaking" - this used to be one of
>> Smalltalk's strengths and is a perfect opportunity to borrow,
>> integrate, and innovate...)
>>
>> Julian
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 11:48 PM, Norbert Hartl <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> This is a very sad thread. It started with a nice idea to talk about and it became more ridiculous with every single reply. I don't understand why everybody is so 110% confident what is the right thing to do if it turns out that we are all completely clueless? How can we dare even to speak against someones ideas? We don't have tons of ideas and need to select. And we don't need _one_ idea!
>>>
>>> Writing a user friendly CMS is not _the_ idea but it is an idea. It doesn't help to shift perspective either to the low level side, the business side or the end user side. It is an idea and it is good. Looking at the current smalltalk development than I can just state that it flurishes at least in the open source corner. From an end user perspective neither pharo, seaside, pier or FFI has a value in itself. But all of these are a good foundation to enable people with ideas to produce wonderful products. I think to do marketing you need something to show. And if we are not the ones with the market breaking ideas than we should focus building the good tools and attract developers. Good applications will follow.
>>>
>>> Yes, marketing is good. Talking about how marketing should be done is not. Analyzing markets, building a product for it and advertize might work but it is a corporate view. Open source devlopment works the opposite way most of the time. So what is better? Isn't that dependent on the fact if you are inside or outside corporate wise. Reading 'the tipping point' is sure a good idea but I observed it made a lot of people think they know "how success works" and they just need to find any idea/product that is willing to fit in. But you can't copy success stories easily.
>>>
>>> So we all should focus more on what we can _do_ instead of distracting the motivaton of those that are willing to do something. I'm not a professional smalltalker but I spend a vast amount of my (spare) time in a lot of things smalltalk and try to build my small business. Without having faith, love and passion I could do J2EE instead.
>>>
>>> ranting end.
>>>
>>> Norbert
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Esug-list mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org

> After this email, none of you will have to put up with me, because I've already  removed myself from the ESUG list.
>
> I find this email chain, like the barcelona conference, extremely sad.  I went to the conference hoping that I could tell my employer that Smalltalk is alive and strong.  The conference like this email shows it is weak and divided.  Adding more flavors of Smalltalk that are not 100% compatible with what already exists only dilutes the Smalltalk world.  Creating email chains, like this one, that drags in people like me, longing to see progress, but only emphasizing the fractures in the Smalltalk community, want to cry.
>
> The Smalltalk community should have worked to keep the .NET interface alive, but it was allowed to die at a version 1.  Because of incompatible Smalltalk flavors, I'm stuck on VA which still lacks Unicode support.  The result is that my employer is moving all new development to. C# .NET using MVC, Fluent NHibernate, S#arp Architecture, and jQuery.  I just came back from a .NET conference that showed a strong unified community.  Many of them are still trying to understand OOD, but they are learning and supporting each other.
>
> Out of six Smalltalk developers here, I am the last one dedicated to Smalltalk development.  When there is no more Smalltalk to be done, my programming days will end.
>
> I've lost hope, but wish Smalltalk the best.
>
> Andy
>
>
> On Mar 22, 2011, at 6:35 AM, "Norbert Hartl"<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>
>>
>> Am 22.03.2011 um 10:23 schrieb Julian Fitzell:
>>
>>> Hi Norbert,
>>>
>>> I disagree entirely. This thread isn't sad at all; it shows how
>>> passionate this community is about Smalltalk and that people want to
>>> talk about how to share this passion with as many others as possible.
>>>
>> Ok, it seems we just have different definitions of passion.
>>
>>> Suggesting that one can do marketing without talking about marketing
>>> is, in my view, nonsensical. People are naturally free to do whatever
>>> they like, but the fact that they are having this discussion suggests
>>> to me that they are not quite sure what to do and would like to
>>> discuss ideas with others. They would like to focus their passion on
>>> ideas they believe will be successful, rather than doing whatever
>>> first comes to their minds. Presumably this discussions will involve
>>> some disagreement rather than a big love fest of mutual affirmation.
>>> "How can we dare even to speak against someones ideas?"? I find that a
>>> very very strange sentiment...
>>>
>> It is also quite obvious that you need to talk if you are not doing it alone (or by definition if you like that better). So I didn't mean it is forbidden to talk about marketing. And to be honest if you say "...are not quite sure what to do..." and you find "How can we dare even to speak against someones ideas?" a strange sentiment than I'm totally out of bussiness explaining it.
>>
>>> Since most of use here are developers, I think we are not used to
>>> thinking about the issues of markets and messages and can therefore
>>> benefit from all the groupthink we can get. Obviously writing a CMS is
>>> *an* idea - that's by definition; but this particular idea was being
>>> discussed in the very specific context of making Smalltalk wildly
>>> popular. Do you think it will?
>>>
>> Yes, I do. I don't believe there will be a single killer app that rejuvenates the investment in smalltalk. A lot of effort is to convince other people. And for that you often need to prove that you can do "that" also. I think it is good to have a portfolio of applications that you just can show. That is a language people understand that are not technical experienced (which we all agree is the majority).
>> My assumption here is that we are not only talking about end-user products but about doing services for customers which build end-user products.
>>
>>> I'm not 110% certain of anything but looking at the idea of a CMS:
>>> * there are many established players already in the market, with
>>> mindshare and a big headstart
>>> * there are probably thousands of plugins already written for the
>>> existing platforms
>>> * we are less likely to be successful precisely *because* we would be
>>> using an uncommon language
>>> * our deployment story is still poor
>>> * users of a CMS are generally not going to be users of its underlying
>>> programming language
>>> * Smalltalk is really good at modelling complex domains and CMSes (at
>>> least the popular ones) are really quite simple - this isn't an area
>>> where Smalltalk is going to give a huge advantage over competing
>>> languages
>>>
>> That sounds like a quick market/risk analysis and would be the explanation why you would not invest money in this idea. But do you have an alternative what we _can_ do?
>> If I would be a startup company I would agree completely with your reasoning. You need some "unique selling point" "something outstanding" to be able to be succesful on the market.
>>
>> My point is that you need enablers. Why I'm defending the CMS idea is not that I think the CMS to have is the final goal. But if we are talking about CMSes we are talking about web technologies. Integration of multiple services in a single html page is not that easy (making it _one_ application). If you can live with iframes and same domain origin policy than it is not a problem. If not you need to integrate things more tight. A CMS is just this placeholder for me that enables certain tasks to do with smalltalk in that case web technologies.
>>
>>> The award-winning Cmsbox is evidence that you can create a great CMS
>>> in Smalltalk. But that's not the point. You don't need to read The
>>> Tipping Point to see that we would be entering a saturated market with
>>> little competitive advantage; even if we were successful, we'd have
>>> been largely targeting the wrong people.
>>>
>> I don't understand the last sentence.
>>
>> Norbert
>>
>>> (By the way, your suggestion of attracting developers with good tools
>>> sounds like one reasonable focus. From what I've seen, good developer
>>> tools are in fact still "market breaking" - this used to be one of
>>> Smalltalk's strengths and is a perfect opportunity to borrow,
>>> integrate, and innovate...)
>>>
>>> Julian
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 11:48 PM, Norbert Hartl<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>>> This is a very sad thread. It started with a nice idea to talk about and it became more ridiculous with every single reply. I don't understand why everybody is so 110% confident what is the right thing to do if it turns out that we are all completely clueless? How can we dare even to speak against someones ideas? We don't have tons of ideas and need to select. And we don't need _one_ idea!
>>>>
>>>> Writing a user friendly CMS is not _the_ idea but it is an idea. It doesn't help to shift perspective either to the low level side, the business side or the end user side. It is an idea and it is good. Looking at the current smalltalk development than I can just state that it flurishes at least in the open source corner. From an end user perspective neither pharo, seaside, pier or FFI has a value in itself. But all of these are a good foundation to enable people with ideas to produce wonderful products. I think to do marketing you need something to show. And if we are not the ones with the market breaking ideas than we should focus building the good tools and attract developers. Good applications will follow.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, marketing is good. Talking about how marketing should be done is not. Analyzing markets, building a product for it and advertize might work but it is a corporate view. Open source devlopment works the opposite way most of the time. So what is better? Isn't that dependent on the fact if you are inside or outside corporate wise. Reading 'the tipping point' is sure a good idea but I observed it made a lot of people think they know "how success works" and they just need to find any idea/product that is willing to fit in. But you can't copy success stories easily.
>>>>
>>>> So we all should focus more on what we can _do_ instead of distracting the motivaton of those that are willing to do something. I'm not a professional smalltalker but I spend a vast amount of my (spare) time in a lot of things smalltalk and try to build my small business. Without having faith, love and passion I could do J2EE instead.
>>>>
>>>> ranting end.
>>>>
>>>> Norbert
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Esug-list mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Esug-list mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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> Hi all!
>
> I agree with Julian in all his points (thus no quoting!) but just wanted to
> say one more thing in this thread:
>
> Although it is fun and engaging to talk about "we should do X", and I really
> don't want to suppress that, it almost never ends up being the driving force
> for someone to actually do X.
>
> IMHO a more exciting discussion can start if someone says "I want to do X"
> and then see what people think of it and if they want to join in and so on.
>
> Just my 2 öre.
>

> It's great that people are willing to talk about this, and some are doing things too. Admit it though: most of this discussion is programmers talking about marketing, which is as useful as marketers talking about programming. I'm in my 20th year of Smalltalk, so I've seen this a fair few times. My 2c: I'm fairly certain that the only way Smalltalk could achieve major success is by dying and being reborn with a new name.
>  
> If anyone has a minute (and access rights!), the ESUG pages could do with some love:
> 1) they crashed yesterday, and have often slowed to a crawl
> 2) there's a top-level menu "Robotics" that leads to a page saying "A place for Jordi to write, ok!"
> 3) The search box does nothing
> 4) On IE8, there are Javascript errors. All pages have "Ajax is not defined", and many have some "idX is not defined" errors (for various X)
>  
> Believe it or not, those are the kinds of things that register with outsiders when they check out Smalltalk, in particular if they're considering using it to build things on the web. Of course I understand this is all done as volunteer work, and I appreciate the effort people have put into it. I'm just pointing out the facts and providing a bug report.
>  
> All the best,
> Steve
> --
> Steven Kelly, Ph.D.
> Co-President and CTO, MetaCase
> Tel.:
> +358 14 641 000 ext. 21
> Fax:
> +358 420 648 606
> Cell:
> +358 40 7331 286
> Web:
> www.metacase.com
> Blog:
> www.metacase.com/blogs/stevek/blogView
> Email:
> [hidden email]
>
> SD TIMES 100 Winner 2007 & 2008
> MetaCase Recognized as Software Development Leader and Innovator
>  
>  
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
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> Steven
>
> this is fun that you shoot on us while you were never able to come and present your products at ESUG while
> I'm sure that it would have helped the community.
> Now I like all the talking here, but how many are we to do something for others (I mean others than our little business).
>
> Stef
>
>
> On Mar 22, 2011, at 3:03 PM, Steven Kelly wrote:
>
>> It's great that people are willing to talk about this, and some are doing things too. Admit it though: most of this discussion is programmers talking about marketing, which is as useful as marketers talking about programming. I'm in my 20th year of Smalltalk, so I've seen this a fair few times. My 2c: I'm fairly certain that the only way Smalltalk could achieve major success is by dying and being reborn with a new name.
>>  
>> If anyone has a minute (and access rights!), the ESUG pages could do with some love:
>> 1) they crashed yesterday, and have often slowed to a crawl
>> 2) there's a top-level menu "Robotics" that leads to a page saying "A place for Jordi to write, ok!"
>> 3) The search box does nothing
>> 4) On IE8, there are Javascript errors. All pages have "Ajax is not defined", and many have some "idX is not defined" errors (for various X)
>>  
>> Believe it or not, those are the kinds of things that register with outsiders when they check out Smalltalk, in particular if they're considering using it to build things on the web. Of course I understand this is all done as volunteer work, and I appreciate the effort people have put into it. I'm just pointing out the facts and providing a bug report.
>>  
>> All the best,
>> Steve
>> --
>> Steven Kelly, Ph.D.