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> It's great that people are willing to talk about this, and some are doing things too. Admit it though: most of this discussion is programmers talking about marketing, which is as useful as marketers talking about programming. I'm in my 20th year of Smalltalk, so I've seen this a fair few times. My 2c: I'm fairly certain that the only way Smalltalk could achieve major success is by dying and being reborn with a new name. I'm convinced about that but how could it be Smalltalk with Smalltalk. If you have the solution I'm all ears. Stef _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
Stéphane Ducasse wrote
> this is fun that you shoot on us I guess you really know I'm not shooting at anyone, and you don't need to react negatively. I stand by my comments, both praise and (hopefully insightful and constructive) criticism, and welcome any debate on the actual points. > while you were never able to come and present your products > at ESUG while I'm sure that it would have helped the community. You've been good at asking me to come over the years - well done! As I've replied each time, I don't like travel, and I have to do a lot of it for our business. I've presented MetaEdit+ at the Cincom Smalltalk conference in Frankfurt, and many times at OOPSLA and ECOOP. Presenting at those places has made commercial sense; presenting at ESUG hasn't seemed to - mostly because the attendees aren't potential customers. That's just the way companies make decisions. I actually discussed entering MetaEdit+ for the ESUG innovation competition one year, and the other judges were open to a commercial product, but you didn't like the idea (which is fine). I'm glad that as a result of that discussion the competition is open to all now. > Now I like all the talking here, but how many are we to do something > for others (I mean others than our little business). I don't do much for ESUG, but in my small way I try and help the Smalltalk community. I love Smalltalk but hate travel, so most of what I do is in the virtual world - helping others on discussion lists, and publishing things in the Cincom public repository. Admittedly all VW not Squeak/Pharo, so less visible to you, but hopefully still useful. If it's any comfort, last week I sent out posters and CFPs for ESUG2011 to several universities and mailing lists. All the best, Steve "to give and not to count the cost; to fight and not to heed the wounds; to toil and not to seek for rest; to labour and not to ask for any reward" > On Mar 22, 2011, at 3:03 PM, Steven Kelly wrote: > > > It's great that people are willing to talk about this, and some are > doing things too. Admit it though: most of this discussion is > programmers talking about marketing, which is as useful as marketers > talking about programming. I'm in my 20th year of Smalltalk, so I've > seen this a fair few times. My 2c: I'm fairly certain that the only way > Smalltalk could achieve major success is by dying and being reborn with > a new name. > > > > If anyone has a minute (and access rights!), the ESUG pages could do > with some love: > > 1) they crashed yesterday, and have often slowed to a crawl > > 2) there's a top-level menu "Robotics" that leads to a page saying "A > place for Jordi to write, ok!" > > 3) The search box does nothing > > 4) On IE8, there are Javascript errors. All pages have "Ajax is not > defined", and many have some "idX is not defined" errors (for various X) > > > > Believe it or not, those are the kinds of things that register with > outsiders when they check out Smalltalk, in particular if they're > considering using it to build things on the web. Of course I understand > this is all done as volunteer work, and I appreciate the effort people > have put into it. I'm just pointing out the facts and providing a bug > report. > > > > All the best, > > Steve > > -- > > Steven Kelly, Ph.D. > > Co-President and CTO, MetaCase > > Tel.: > > +358 14 641 000 ext. 21 > > Fax: > > +358 420 648 606 > > Cell: > > +358 40 7331 286 > > Web: > > www.metacase.com > > Blog: > > www.metacase.com/blogs/stevek/blogView > > Email: > > [hidden email] > > > > SD TIMES 100 Winner 2007 & 2008 > > MetaCase Recognized as Software Development Leader and Innovator > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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In reply to this post by drush66
+1
This is all my point. We can all at our own level gets an impact! > Well folks, > > Strategic discussions are nice and welcome, but related to subject of > this thread, Nick Ager recently posted link to his very nice blog post > with included tutorial how to host Seaside app on EC2. > > Now, raise your hands, who has tweeted, buzzed, commented or linked to > this blog post. > > Davorin Rusevljan > http://www.cloud208.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
Dear Stephane,
one of the ways Steve often contributes significantly to Smalltalk is by swiftly finding the bugs that others only spot - or fail to spot till later. And where it is code, he often fixes bugs, not just finds them. It was good that Steve a couple of days ago pointed out that the pages were down. It would likely have been noticed soon anyway but faster is better than fast, right. So I value his input on the pages I write, or on anything else. I may or may not agree, and may or may not have effort to fix, any particular thing, but his taking the time to notice, describe and email is valued. Yours faithfully Niall Ross Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >Steven > >this is fun that you shoot on us while you were never able to come and present your products at ESUG while >I'm sure that it would have helped the community. >Now I like all the talking here, but how many are we to do something for others (I mean others than our little business). > >Stef > > >On Mar 22, 2011, at 3:03 PM, Steven Kelly wrote: > > > >>It's great that people are willing to talk about this, and some are doing things too. Admit it though: most of this discussion is programmers talking about marketing, which is as useful as marketers talking about programming. I'm in my 20th year of Smalltalk, so I've seen this a fair few times. My 2c: I'm fairly certain that the only way Smalltalk could achieve major success is by dying and being reborn with a new name. >> >>If anyone has a minute (and access rights!), the ESUG pages could do with some love: >>1) they crashed yesterday, and have often slowed to a crawl >>2) there's a top-level menu "Robotics" that leads to a page saying "A place for Jordi to write, ok!" >>3) The search box does nothing >>4) On IE8, there are Javascript errors. All pages have "Ajax is not defined", and many have some "idX is not defined" errors (for various X) >> >>Believe it or not, those are the kinds of things that register with outsiders when they check out Smalltalk, in particular if they're considering using it to build things on the web. Of course I understand this is all done as volunteer work, and I appreciate the effort people have put into it. I'm just pointing out the facts and providing a bug report. >> >>All the best, >>Steve >>-- >>Steven Kelly, Ph.D. >>Co-President and CTO, MetaCase >>Tel.: >>+358 14 641 000 ext. 21 >>Fax: >>+358 420 648 606 >>Cell: >>+358 40 7331 286 >>Web: >>www.metacase.com >>Blog: >>www.metacase.com/blogs/stevek/blogView >>Email: >>[hidden email] >> >>SD TIMES 100 Winner 2007 & 2008 >>MetaCase Recognized as Software Development Leader and Innovator >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Esug-list mailing list >>[hidden email] >>http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Esug-list mailing list >[hidden email] >http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > >______________________________________________________________________ >This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. >For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email >______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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In reply to this post by Steven Kelly
> Stéphane Ducasse wrote >> this is fun that you shoot on us > > I guess you really know I'm not shooting at anyone, and you don't need to react negatively. I stand by my comments, both praise and (hopefully insightful and constructive) criticism, and welcome any debate on the actual points. > >> while you were never able to come and present your products >> at ESUG while I'm sure that it would have helped the community. > > You've been good at asking me to come over the years - well done! As I've replied each time, I don't like travel, and I have to do a lot of it for our business. I've presented MetaEdit+ at the Cincom Smalltalk conference in Frankfurt, and many times at OOPSLA and ECOOP. Presenting at those places has made commercial sense; presenting at ESUG hasn't seemed to - mostly because the attendees aren't potential customers. That's just the way companies make decisions. as I already told you, I imagine that Smalltalk developers do not leave in a bubble with only Smalltalk teams and products and they can probably push your product to Java people because they know that this is in Smalltalk. But I can understand that you do not like to travel since I do not like that either. Now this is up to you to present or not MetaEdit+ at ESUG. Stef _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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In reply to this post by NiallRoss
Yes
There is no problem. I'm just tired about the crying tone of the community. Let us stand up and build the next generation. Stef > Dear Stephane, > one of the ways Steve often contributes significantly to Smalltalk is by swiftly finding the bugs that others only spot - or fail to spot till later. And where it is code, he often fixes bugs, not just finds them. > > It was good that Steve a couple of days ago pointed out that the pages were down. It would likely have been noticed soon anyway but faster is better than fast, right. > > So I value his input on the pages I write, or on anything else. I may or may not agree, and may or may not have effort to fix, any particular thing, but his taking the time to notice, describe and email is valued. > > Yours faithfully > Niall Ross > > Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > >> Steven >> >> this is fun that you shoot on us while you were never able to come and present your products at ESUG while >> I'm sure that it would have helped the community. Now I like all the talking here, but how many are we to do something for others (I mean others than our little business). >> >> Stef >> >> >> On Mar 22, 2011, at 3:03 PM, Steven Kelly wrote: >> >> >>> It's great that people are willing to talk about this, and some are doing things too. Admit it though: most of this discussion is programmers talking about marketing, which is as useful as marketers talking about programming. I'm in my 20th year of Smalltalk, so I've seen this a fair few times. My 2c: I'm fairly certain that the only way Smalltalk could achieve major success is by dying and being reborn with a new name. >>> If anyone has a minute (and access rights!), the ESUG pages could do with some love: >>> 1) they crashed yesterday, and have often slowed to a crawl >>> 2) there's a top-level menu "Robotics" that leads to a page saying "A place for Jordi to write, ok!" >>> 3) The search box does nothing >>> 4) On IE8, there are Javascript errors. All pages have "Ajax is not defined", and many have some "idX is not defined" errors (for various X) >>> Believe it or not, those are the kinds of things that register with outsiders when they check out Smalltalk, in particular if they're considering using it to build things on the web. Of course I understand this is all done as volunteer work, and I appreciate the effort people have put into it. I'm just pointing out the facts and providing a bug report. >>> All the best, >>> Steve >>> -- >>> Steven Kelly, Ph.D. >>> Co-President and CTO, MetaCase >>> Tel.: +358 14 641 000 ext. 21 >>> Fax: +358 420 648 606 >>> Cell: +358 40 7331 286 >>> Web: www.metacase.com >>> Blog: www.metacase.com/blogs/stevek/blogView >>> Email: [hidden email] >>> >>> SD TIMES 100 Winner 2007 & 2008 >>> MetaCase Recognized as Software Development Leader and Innovator >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Esug-list mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. >> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ >> >> >> >> > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 1:39 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote: Yes yep :) Laurent.
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On 25 March 2011 13:44, laurent laffont <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 1:39 PM, Stéphane Ducasse > <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> Yes >> There is no problem. I'm just tired about the crying tone of the >> community. >> Let us stand up and build the next generation. > > yep :) > "The best way to complain is to make things." -- James Murphy > Laurent. > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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In reply to this post by laurent laffont
2011. 3. 25., 저녁 9:44, laurent laffont 작성: > "The best way to complain is to make things." -- James Murphy If I invent something it right after predicting it, it will happen with high probability. Therefore Alan Kay's famous words make sense. I cannot figure out James's words to make sense, yet. Best Regards _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
On Mar 25, 2011, at 2:40 AM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
> VA was nearly killed by IBM and they played it well not selling their smalltalk part to google. > We will see how they will play it in the future. You seem a bit confused here. IBM sold (most of) its Smalltalk business to Instantiations several years ago and Instantiations sold its Java business to Google last year. Given that, I'm not sure if it is IBM that you think "nearly killed" VA, or Instantiations, which "played it well" by keeping Smalltalk. James _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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In reply to this post by HwaJong Oh
HwaJongOh wrote:
> > "The best way to complain is to make things." -- James Murphy > > I cannot figure out James's words to make sense, yet. I guess it means "don't complain that something is broken: fix it, or make something better". That's good advice, but of course sometimes it's not possible - I may not have the knowledge, skill or right to fix it. In that case, reporting the problem to the owner is sensible. It helps to say nice things about the owner and his product at the start and end of the report, and report the bug calmly and objectively. If that's advice for the bug finder, then advice for the code owner is of course "don't shoot the messenger". We need to distinguish between the fact that there's a bug (which is bad) and the fact that we now at least know about the bug (which is good). We made the bug (bad us!), and the bug reporter told us about it (good for him!), so we should grit our teeth and thank the bug reporter. ...and of course, I find this advice as hard to follow as anyone else! Steve _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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I am slowly slowly starting to think that maaaaaaaybe I shouldn't have mentioned anything about a Smalltalk based Blog/CMS .. now everyone, take a chill pill have a beer or whatever tickles your fancy and enjoy your weekend :)
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The main problem the community has is one that's common across (non major corporate funded) Open Source projects - developers tend to build something right up to the point where it's useful for their purposes, and then they top. Issues, problems, bugs - we work around those as part of our workflow.
This isn't so much anyone's fault as just the way things are. On Mar 25, 2011, at 11:32 AM, Geert Claes wrote: > I am slowly slowly starting to think that maaaaaaaybe I shouldn't have > mentioned anything about a Smalltalk based Blog/CMS .. now everyone, > http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/take_a_chill_pill take a chill pill have a > beer or whatever tickles your fancy and enjoy your weekend :) > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-hosting-tp3384077p3405652.html > Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org James Robertson http://www.jarober.com [hidden email] _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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In reply to this post by Steven Kelly
Steven and Andrew,
Thank you for taking the time to point out where things can be improved. I propose that all criticism - right, wrong, good, bad, whatever - be answered in the same way: "Thank you." I personally am grateful for the HUGE amount of work done by the ESUG, Squeak & Pharo teams. And, I'm sure it can be demoralizing to be one of the people putting in all that effort (probably for free) and hear criticism. That having been said, I cringe every time criticism is met with resistance, frustration, or defensiveness. Criticism is solid gold - all of it. It is a wake-up call to how our community is perceived from the outside. The truth doesn't matter! It's all about perception. I think it would be far more valuable to pull in as much criticism as possible than to explain it away point by point. Let's give critics water and sunlight to flourish on our mailing lists and smack us awake, rather than throw up their hands and move silently to a different language/community. Of course, after the "thank you", relevant info like "such and such has been fixed" or "an engineer would really help move things along here" would be great, resting on a foundation of acknowledgement and gratitude that someone took the time to reach out instead of disappearing or gossiping, providing a service to the community. Sean
Cheers,
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Sean - thought this was a wonderful message. I agree that the hard work of the Squeak, Pharo, Vm + other teams has been awesome. I find it's rejuvenated Smalltalk and the enthusiasm is contagious.
For everyone that contributed to this thread - I've thanks for the ideas - I'm certainly still very encouraged to setup a blog using Smalltalk! Tim On 26 Mar 2011, at 17:20, Sean P. DeNigris wrote: > Steven and Andrew, > > Thank you for taking the time to point out where things can be improved. > > I propose that all criticism - right, wrong, good, bad, whatever - be > answered in the same way: "Thank you." > > I personally am grateful for the HUGE amount of work done by the ESUG, > Squeak & Pharo teams. And, I'm sure it can be demoralizing to be one of the > people putting in all that effort (probably for free) and hear criticism. > > That having been said, I cringe every time criticism is met with resistance, > frustration, or defensiveness. Criticism is solid gold - all of it. It is a > wake-up call to how our community is perceived from the outside. The truth > doesn't matter! It's all about perception. I think it would be far more > valuable to pull in as much criticism as possible than to explain it away > point by point. Let's give critics water and sunlight to flourish on our > mailing lists and smack us awake, rather than throw up their hands and move > silently to a different language/community. > > Of course, after the "thank you", relevant info like "such and such has been > fixed" or "an engineer would really help move things along here" would be > great, resting on a foundation of acknowledgement and gratitude that someone > took the time to reach out instead of disappearing or gossiping, providing a > service to the community. > > Sean > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-hosting-tp3384077p3407992.html > Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris
Thanks sean.
We are always trying to improve ourselves and we accept and value criticism. Now there are moments where I would like to see more doing than talking. Stef > Steven and Andrew, > > Thank you for taking the time to point out where things can be improved. > > I propose that all criticism - right, wrong, good, bad, whatever - be > answered in the same way: "Thank you." > > I personally am grateful for the HUGE amount of work done by the ESUG, > Squeak & Pharo teams. And, I'm sure it can be demoralizing to be one of the > people putting in all that effort (probably for free) and hear criticism. > > That having been said, I cringe every time criticism is met with resistance, > frustration, or defensiveness. Criticism is solid gold - all of it. It is a > wake-up call to how our community is perceived from the outside. The truth > doesn't matter! It's all about perception. I think it would be far more > valuable to pull in as much criticism as possible than to explain it away > point by point. Let's give critics water and sunlight to flourish on our > mailing lists and smack us awake, rather than throw up their hands and move > silently to a different language/community. > > Of course, after the "thank you", relevant info like "such and such has been > fixed" or "an engineer would really help move things along here" would be > great, resting on a foundation of acknowledgement and gratitude that someone > took the time to reach out instead of disappearing or gossiping, providing a > service to the community. > > Sean > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-hosting-tp3384077p3407992.html > Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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In reply to this post by Geert Claes
Well, just to avoid talking-and-not-doing feeling...
I made/making SmallPOS framework, Pharo\Seaside\GLORP\Magritte-based. Initially oriented on small businesses with not-standart business processes, it provides possibility for really fast prototyping...and, for example, connecting hardware (like label printers and barcode scanners) on client side. Now I want to see how opensource development model may work. So, I'll do my best to present it on ESUG conference...if I'll successed with visa this year. Sun, 27 Mar 2011 17:09:20 +0200 письмо от Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]>: > Thanks sean. > > We are always trying to improve ourselves and we accept and value criticism. > Now there are moments where I would like to see more doing than talking. > > Stef > > > Steven and Andrew, > > > > Thank you for taking the time to point out where things can be improved. > > > > I propose that all criticism - right, wrong, good, bad, whatever - be > > answered in the same way: "Thank you." > > > > I personally am grateful for the HUGE amount of work done by the ESUG, > > Squeak & Pharo teams. And, I'm sure it can be demoralizing to be one of the > > people putting in all that effort (probably for free) and hear criticism. > > > > That having been said, I cringe every time criticism is met with resistance, > > frustration, or defensiveness. Criticism is solid gold - all of it. It is a > > wake-up call to how our community is perceived from the outside. The truth > > doesn't matter! It's all about perception. I think it would be far more > > valuable to pull in as much criticism as possible than to explain it away > > point by point. Let's give critics water and sunlight to flourish on our > > mailing lists and smack us awake, rather than throw up their hands and move > > silently to a different language/community. > > > > Of course, after the "thank you", relevant info like "such and such has been > > fixed" or "an engineer would really help move things along here" would be > > great, resting on a foundation of acknowledgement and gratitude that someone > > took the time to reach out instead of disappearing or gossiping, providing a > > service to the community. > > > > Sean > > > > -- > > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-hosting-tp3384077p3407992.html > > Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Esug-list mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris
Amen, brudda! Criticism is an opportunity.
On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 12:20 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote: Steven and Andrew, -- Steve Cline [hidden email] http://www.clines.org http://www.linkedin.com/in/stevecline "Do what's right, and try to get along with people, in that order" - Ezra Taft Benson _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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In reply to this post by tallman@inbox.ru
Excellent
do you have a web presence? Stef On Mar 27, 2011, at 11:17 PM, Юрий Мироненко wrote: > Well, just to avoid talking-and-not-doing feeling... > > I made/making SmallPOS framework, Pharo\Seaside\GLORP\Magritte-based. Initially oriented on small businesses with not-standart business processes, it provides possibility for really fast prototyping...and, for example, connecting hardware (like label printers and barcode scanners) on client side. > > Now I want to see how opensource development model may work. So, I'll do my best to present it on ESUG conference...if I'll successed with visa this year. > > > Sun, 27 Mar 2011 17:09:20 +0200 письмо от Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]>: > >> Thanks sean. >> >> We are always trying to improve ourselves and we accept and value criticism. >> Now there are moments where I would like to see more doing than talking. >> >> Stef >> >>> Steven and Andrew, >>> >>> Thank you for taking the time to point out where things can be improved. >>> >>> I propose that all criticism - right, wrong, good, bad, whatever - be >>> answered in the same way: "Thank you." >>> >>> I personally am grateful for the HUGE amount of work done by the ESUG, >>> Squeak & Pharo teams. And, I'm sure it can be demoralizing to be one of the >>> people putting in all that effort (probably for free) and hear criticism. >>> >>> That having been said, I cringe every time criticism is met with resistance, >>> frustration, or defensiveness. Criticism is solid gold - all of it. It is a >>> wake-up call to how our community is perceived from the outside. The truth >>> doesn't matter! It's all about perception. I think it would be far more >>> valuable to pull in as much criticism as possible than to explain it away >>> point by point. Let's give critics water and sunlight to flourish on our >>> mailing lists and smack us awake, rather than throw up their hands and move >>> silently to a different language/community. >>> >>> Of course, after the "thank you", relevant info like "such and such has been >>> fixed" or "an engineer would really help move things along here" would be >>> great, resting on a foundation of acknowledgement and gratitude that someone >>> took the time to reach out instead of disappearing or gossiping, providing a >>> service to the community. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -- >>> View this message in context: >> http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-hosting-tp3384077p3407992.html >>> Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Esug-list mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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In reply to this post by Geert Claes
OK, So I'm probably coming into the discussion at about the point when
everyone has lost interest and gone back to work on super-cool VM extensions or hardcore simulations in Croquet or whatever. First let me do a negative introduction by telling you what I'm not. I'm not a SmallTalk programmer (I'm working on that) I'm hardly a programmer at all(been doing product managery type of stuff for far too long.) When I first saw DabbleDB (+- 3 yrs ago) I thought, "Wow!!! That is brilliant! I want some of that." So I started reading on SmallTalk and reading and reading........ I've read up on Squeak, Pharo, VW, VA. Dolphin, Gnu, you name it I read papers by Kay, Goldberg, Ingalls. I've read on Traits, AOP, Collections (I even listened to Alice's Restaurant). It's kind of sad that I've not actually done much programming. I attended ESUG 2010 (as I live in Barcelona.) The frustrations I've found have been discussed at great length in this thread so I'm not repeating them. Despite all of this there is something that I find attractive about the concept of Smalltalk, that keeps drawing me back to it. Maybe it's the liveness. the concept of the sea of objects, the combination of data and logic cohabiting that seems to have some "rightness" about it. Anyway when I read that VMWare had purchased GemStone via SpringSource last year, I thought, "Brilliant move.". I thought they were capitalizing on the GemStone product to build a force.com ObjectStore. I was partly right. It turns out they planned to use GemFire which is Java. Bummer. The force.com idea is pretty good. It's a cloud based execution platform for user contributed programs, starting with salesforce.com. The environment, language and applications are Ugggghly! Wouldn't it be great to have a force.com like concept with a Smalltalk backend on Seaside (or Aida or Iliad) with a cloud based objectstore using GemStone (or Magma, or Amazon S3). Oh and please one frigging Smalltalk dialect so I don't have the really useful library that I'd love to use only available in the flavour of Smalltalk that I'm not currently using. Anyway I've had way too much caffeine this morning and that's probably why I'm babbling. I'll go back to my quite little corner of the world and you'll never have to hear from me again as I go back to my product managery stuff :-( Cheers, Miguel On 17 March 2011 10:59, Geert Claes <[hidden email]> wrote: > Smalltalk does have open source blog and content management systems; e.g. > http://www.piercms.com Pier CMS and http://www.aidaweb.si/scribo.html > AIDAscribo ... but a lot can be improved to make them attractive > alternatives to the big http://www.drupal.org Drupal (PHP) and > http://www.joomla.org Joomla (PHP) or even smaller ones like > http://radiantcms.org Radiant CMS (Ruby) , http://www.refinerycms.com > Refinery CMS (Ruby) , http://www.django-cms.org Django CMS (Python) , etc > > Smalltalk will get more exposure if it were easier (and cheaper) for people > to host their own blog or website using a Smalltalk based Blog/CMS. > > Question is; what can be done to have more Smalltalkers use a Smalltalk > based blog system and attract non-Smalltalkers to try a Smalltalk CMS? > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Smalltalk-hosting-tp3384077p3384077.html > Sent from the ESUG mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org > _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/mailman/listinfo/esug-list_lists.esug.org |
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