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Squeak's presence on GitHub

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Casey Ransberger-2

Re: what is Smalltalk?

Sorry about the slow reply. I assumed the best intentions (hence the smiley face) but wanted to make sure folks knew there was more than one contributor (we have a whole list.)

As for your "Fermi barrier of complexity" well. I don't know exactly how you intended this metaphor.

We can look at some of the more obvious numbers (number of classes, number of methods per class, etc) and compare/contrast with other dialects, but I think I can safely say that we're not doing too bad so far. Experience thus far has shown that most things port to Cuis pretty cleanly, though the UI usually has to be rewritten, and often convenience methods need to be brought over, etc. While there are some features that we've (temporarily) yanked because we wanted to get rid of crufty code and/or code that doesn't grok a zoomable UI, Cuis is otherwise a very reliable and consistent system with people who will often supply support just for good sport.

More importantly, I think, is that Cuis folks want to be a part of the Squeak community. We're a *distribution*.

Anyhoo, I figured I'd look at some numbers here. Someone should correct my incantations here, because these numbers are just too good to believe! I must be doing something wrong.

So I'm tallying classes and traits in Squeak and Pharo with:

Smalltalk allClassesAndTraits size

...and in Cuis, since we don't have Traits, with:

Smalltalk allClasses size

I realize that Traits aren't exactly classes, and that this is overall a relatively weak single metric for complexity, but just to show the difference in magnitude, please bear with me. FWIW, Pharo, which uses Traits extensively, only has 85 of them AFAICT, so they shouldn't skew the numbers too much.

Squeak 4.4: 2148

Pharo 2.0: 3301

Cuis 4.1: 655

I think just from that it's easy to see the signal:noise ratio in Cuis, but of course there's plenty of room for a deeper study and more metrics (cyclomatic complexity, etcetera.) One useful insight might be: Squeak's core should be able to get as small or nearly as small as Cuis is now (at *least.*) I think this is good news all around.

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 11:46 AM, Casimiro de Almeida Barreto <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 20-05-2013 03:34, Casey Ransberger wrote:
>> After the schism,
>> at least two other versions of "baby squeaks" appeared. One is dealt by
>> a single developer. I hope him the best luck in the world.
> Cuis is supported by a very small community of deeply passionate people, not a single developer. Saying that is like saying that Squeak was dealt exclusively by Andreas Raab when he had the most commits.
>
> In other words: what am I, chopped liver? :)
>
>

Reading it again, I noticed that the English translation does not map
exactly on the Brazilian Portuguese idea it should transmit. Sounds like
I meant some kind of irony. That's not the case. Regarding Cuis its idea
(which I enjoy) I really hope Cuis community the best luck in world (as
in "espero que os caras se deêm bem"). My concern is that the community
is small and at some point will need some energy to break through the
"Fermi barrier of complexity".

CdAB

--
Casey Ransberger

CdAB63

Re: what is Smalltalk?

On 24-05-2013 18:28, Casey Ransberger wrote:
> Sorry about the slow reply. I assumed the best intentions (hence the
> smiley face) but wanted to make sure folks knew there was more than
> one contributor (we have a whole list.)
You're right. And as I told, I like the Cuis idea. And I'm happy to see
that there's a community caring of it. From my side I'll look much
closer at it (I have used it a little bit, but current projects both
professional & academic swallowed time to experiment around).
>
> As for your "Fermi barrier of complexity" well. I don't know exactly
> how you intended this metaphor.
Things tend to be stable at a certain energy level. In order to send
something from a stable energy level to the next one it is usually not
enough to increase energy continuously. It is required to have a large
energy input and then stuff jumps to next stable level. Otherwise it
will find an unstable level and eventually decay to original place
emitting radiation. In academy radiation is good (papers, book chapters,
etc) but in business it is usually bad.
>
> (...)
>
> More importantly, I think, is that Cuis folks want to be a part of the
> Squeak community. We're a *distribution*.
I enjoy the idea of distribution. Clean & small & consistent distribution.

>
> Anyhoo, I figured I'd look at some numbers here. Someone should
> correct my incantations here, because these numbers are just too good
> to believe! I must be doing something wrong.
>
> So I'm tallying classes and traits in Squeak and Pharo with:
>
> Smalltalk allClassesAndTraits size
>
> ...and in Cuis, since we don't have Traits, with:
>
> Smalltalk allClasses size
>
> I realize that Traits aren't exactly classes, and that this is overall
> a relatively weak single metric for complexity, but just to show the
> difference in magnitude, please bear with me. FWIW, Pharo, which uses
> Traits extensively, only has 85 of them AFAICT, so they shouldn't
> skew the numbers too much.
>
> Squeak 4.4: 2148
> Pharo 2.0: 3301
> Cuis 4.1: 655
>
> I think just from that it's easy to see the signal:noise ratio in
> Cuis, but of course there's plenty of room for a deeper study and more
> metrics (cyclomatic complexity, etcetera.) One useful insight might
> be: Squeak's core should be able to get as small or nearly as small as
> Cuis is now (at *least.*) I think this is good news all around.
>
>

I agree with aiming to make Squeak core about same size of Cuis.

Colin Putney-3

Re: Squeak's presence on GitHub

In reply to this post by Frank Shearar-3

On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 6:33 AM, Frank Shearar <[hidden email]> wrote:

I forgot to add: if you want membership in the GitHub organisation
(and you KNOW you do), let me know. I only know Bert's github ID, so
he's the only one I've volunteered.

cwp, please.

Dale Henrichs-3

Re: Squeak's presence on GitHub

In reply to this post by Frank Shearar-3

I would like to be a member: dalehenrich

Dale

----- Original Message -----
| From: "Frank Shearar" <[hidden email]>
| To: "The general-purpose Squeak developers list" <[hidden email]>
| Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 6:33:26 AM
| Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Squeak's presence on GitHub
|
| On 22 May 2013 14:46, Frank Shearar <[hidden email]> wrote:
| > * https://github.com/squeak-smalltalk/
| > * https://github.com/squeak-smalltalk/squeak-ci/
| >
| > Note that any existing references to
| > https://github.com/frankshearar/squeak-ci/ are safe; this link will
| > now automatically (thanks to the awesome power of GitHub) redirect
| > you
| > to squeak-ci's new home.
|
| I forgot to add: if you want membership in the GitHub organisation
| (and you KNOW you do), let me know. I only know Bert's github ID, so
| he's the only one I've volunteered.
|
| frank
|

Frank Shearar-3

Re: Squeak's presence on GitHub

In reply to this post by Colin Putney-3

On 26 May 2013 22:39, Colin Putney <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 6:33 AM, Frank Shearar <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I forgot to add: if you want membership in the GitHub organisation
>> (and you KNOW you do), let me know. I only know Bert's github ID, so
>> he's the only one I've volunteered.
>>
>
> cwp, please.

Done!

Frank Shearar-3

Re: Squeak's presence on GitHub

In reply to this post by Dale Henrichs-3

Done!

On 27 May 2013 04:47, Dale K. Henrichs <[hidden email]> wrote:

Casey Ransberger-2

Re: Squeak's presence on GitHub

zerodivision on GitHub

On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 12:23 AM, Frank Shearar <[hidden email]> wrote:

Done!

On 27 May 2013 04:47, Dale K. Henrichs <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I would like to be a member: dalehenrich
>
> Dale
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> | From: "Frank Shearar" <[hidden email]>
> | To: "The general-purpose Squeak developers list" <[hidden email]>
> | Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 6:33:26 AM
> | Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Squeak's presence on GitHub
> |
> | On 22 May 2013 14:46, Frank Shearar <[hidden email]> wrote:
> | > * https://github.com/squeak-smalltalk/
> | > * https://github.com/squeak-smalltalk/squeak-ci/
> | >
> | > Note that any existing references to
> | > https://github.com/frankshearar/squeak-ci/ are safe; this link will
> | > now automatically (thanks to the awesome power of GitHub) redirect
> | > you
> | > to squeak-ci's new home.
> |
> | I forgot to add: if you want membership in the GitHub organisation
> | (and you KNOW you do), let me know. I only know Bert's github ID, so
> | he's the only one I've volunteered.
> |
> | frank
> |
>

--
Casey Ransberger

Frank Shearar-3

Re: Squeak's presence on GitHub

Done!

frank

On 27 May 2013 21:48, Casey Ransberger <[hidden email]> wrote:

> zerodivision on GitHub
>
>
> On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 12:23 AM, Frank Shearar <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Done!
>>
>> On 27 May 2013 04:47, Dale K. Henrichs <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> > I would like to be a member: dalehenrich
>> >
>> > Dale
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > | From: "Frank Shearar" <[hidden email]>
>> > | To: "The general-purpose Squeak developers list"
>> > <[hidden email]>
>> > | Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 6:33:26 AM
>> > | Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Squeak's presence on GitHub
>> > |
>> > | On 22 May 2013 14:46, Frank Shearar <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > | > * https://github.com/squeak-smalltalk/
>> > | > * https://github.com/squeak-smalltalk/squeak-ci/
>> > | >
>> > | > Note that any existing references to
>> > | > https://github.com/frankshearar/squeak-ci/ are safe; this link will
>> > | > now automatically (thanks to the awesome power of GitHub) redirect
>> > | > you
>> > | > to squeak-ci's new home.
>> > |
>> > | I forgot to add: if you want membership in the GitHub organisation
>> > | (and you KNOW you do), let me know. I only know Bert's github ID, so
>> > | he's the only one I've volunteered.
>> > |
>> > | frank
>> > |
>> >
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Casey Ransberger
>
>
>

Sean P. DeNigris

Re: Squeak's presence on GitHub

Administrator

In reply to this post by Frank Shearar-3

Frank Shearar-3 wrote

I forgot to add: if you want membership in the GitHub organisation
(and you KNOW you do), let me know

seandenigris

Cheers,
Sean

Frank Shearar-3

Re: Squeak's presence on GitHub

On 28 May 2013 02:40, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Frank Shearar-3 wrote
>> I forgot to add: if you want membership in the GitHub organisation
>> (and you KNOW you do), let me know
>
> seandenigris

Done!

frank

Tobias Pape

Re: Squeak's presence on GitHub

Am 28.05.2013 um 09:55 schrieb Frank Shearar <[hidden email]>:

> On 28 May 2013 02:40, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Frank Shearar-3 wrote
>>> I forgot to add: if you want membership in the GitHub organisation
>>> (and you KNOW you do), let me know
>>
>> seandenigris
>

krono

Best
-Tobias

Frank Shearar-3

Re: Squeak's presence on GitHub

On 28 May 2013 16:08, Tobias Pape <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Am 28.05.2013 um 09:55 schrieb Frank Shearar <[hidden email]>:
>
>> On 28 May 2013 02:40, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Frank Shearar-3 wrote
>>>> I forgot to add: if you want membership in the GitHub organisation
>>>> (and you KNOW you do), let me know
>>>
>>> seandenigris
>>
>
> krono

Done!

frank

Enrico Spinielli-2

Re: Squeak's presence on GitHub

In reply to this post by Frank Shearar-3

espinielli
thanks!

On May 23, 2013 3:33 PM, "Frank Shearar" <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 22 May 2013 14:46, Frank Shearar <[hidden email]> wrote:
> * https://github.com/squeak-smalltalk/
> * https://github.com/squeak-smalltalk/squeak-ci/
>
> Note that any existing references to
> https://github.com/frankshearar/squeak-ci/ are safe; this link will
> now automatically (thanks to the awesome power of GitHub) redirect you
> to squeak-ci's new home.

I forgot to add: if you want membership in the GitHub organisation
(and you KNOW you do), let me know. I only know Bert's github ID, so
he's the only one I've volunteered.

frank

Frank Shearar-3

Re: Squeak's presence on GitHub

Done!

frank

On 28 May 2013 20:21, Enrico Spinielli <[hidden email]> wrote:

> espinielli
> thanks!
>
> On May 23, 2013 3:33 PM, "Frank Shearar" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 22 May 2013 14:46, Frank Shearar <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > * https://github.com/squeak-smalltalk/
>> > * https://github.com/squeak-smalltalk/squeak-ci/
>> >
>> > Note that any existing references to
>> > https://github.com/frankshearar/squeak-ci/ are safe; this link will
>> > now automatically (thanks to the awesome power of GitHub) redirect you
>> > to squeak-ci's new home.
>>
>> I forgot to add: if you want membership in the GitHub organisation
>> (and you KNOW you do), let me know. I only know Bert's github ID, so
>> he's the only one I've volunteered.
>>
>> frank
>>
>
>
>

Ken G. Brown

Re: Squeak's presence on GitHub

Me too please...
kneb139

Ken G. Brown

On 2013-05-28, at 3:00 PM, Frank Shearar wrote:

> Done!
>
> frank
>
> On 28 May 2013 20:21, Enrico Spinielli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> espinielli
>> thanks!
>>
>> On May 23, 2013 3:33 PM, "Frank Shearar" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 22 May 2013 14:46, Frank Shearar <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> * https://github.com/squeak-smalltalk/
>>>> * https://github.com/squeak-smalltalk/squeak-ci/
>>>>
>>>> Note that any existing references to
>>>> https://github.com/frankshearar/squeak-ci/ are safe; this link will
>>>> now automatically (thanks to the awesome power of GitHub) redirect you
>>>> to squeak-ci's new home.
>>>
>>> I forgot to add: if you want membership in the GitHub organisation
>>> (and you KNOW you do), let me know. I only know Bert's github ID, so
>>> he's the only one I've volunteered.
>>>
>>> frank
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Hannes Hirzel

Re: Squeak's presence on GitHub

And

hhzl

please.

On 5/28/13, Ken G. Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Me too please...
> kneb139
>
> Ken G. Brown
>
> On 2013-05-28, at 3:00 PM, Frank Shearar wrote:
>
>> Done!
>>
>> frank
>>
>> On 28 May 2013 20:21, Enrico Spinielli <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>> espinielli
>>> thanks!
>>>
>>> On May 23, 2013 3:33 PM, "Frank Shearar" <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 22 May 2013 14:46, Frank Shearar <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> * https://github.com/squeak-smalltalk/
>>>>> * https://github.com/squeak-smalltalk/squeak-ci/
>>>>>
>>>>> Note that any existing references to
>>>>> https://github.com/frankshearar/squeak-ci/ are safe; this link will
>>>>> now automatically (thanks to the awesome power of GitHub) redirect you
>>>>> to squeak-ci's new home.
>>>>
>>>> I forgot to add: if you want membership in the GitHub organisation
>>>> (and you KNOW you do), let me know. I only know Bert's github ID, so
>>>> he's the only one I've volunteered.
>>>>
>>>> frank
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>

Frank Shearar-3

Re: Squeak's presence on GitHub

Done, and done.

One thing that I should note is that it may be the case that
membership in an organisation is not public by default. Hannes, would
you confirm this? So you ought to see that you're a member of
squeak-smalltalk, but - if my suspicions are correct - you won't see
that kneb139 is.

If that's the case, I'll flip the switches to show membership publically.

frank

On 29 May 2013 00:30, H. Hirzel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> And
>
> hhzl
>
> please.
>
> On 5/28/13, Ken G. Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Me too please...
>> kneb139
>>
>> Ken G. Brown
>>
>> On 2013-05-28, at 3:00 PM, Frank Shearar wrote:
>>
>>> Done!
>>>
>>> frank
>>>
>>> On 28 May 2013 20:21, Enrico Spinielli <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> espinielli
>>>> thanks!
>>>>
>>>> On May 23, 2013 3:33 PM, "Frank Shearar" <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 22 May 2013 14:46, Frank Shearar <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> * https://github.com/squeak-smalltalk/
>>>>>> * https://github.com/squeak-smalltalk/squeak-ci/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Note that any existing references to
>>>>>> https://github.com/frankshearar/squeak-ci/ are safe; this link will
>>>>>> now automatically (thanks to the awesome power of GitHub) redirect you
>>>>>> to squeak-ci's new home.
>>>>>
>>>>> I forgot to add: if you want membership in the GitHub organisation
>>>>> (and you KNOW you do), let me know. I only know Bert's github ID, so
>>>>> he's the only one I've volunteered.
>>>>>
>>>>> frank
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Sean P. DeNigris

Re: Squeak's presence on GitHub

Administrator

Frank Shearar-3 wrote

One thing that I should note is that it may be the case that
membership in an organisation is not public by default.

It seems that it's up to each member. At https://github.com/squeak-smalltalk?tab=members I see "11 members", but only 5 other users listed. I also was presented with a "Publicize Membership" button, which I immediately and vigorously pushed ;)

Cheers,
Sean

Ken G. Brown

Re: Squeak's presence on GitHub

Done. I see 7 of 11 members now.
Ken

On 2013-05-29, at 8:12 AM, Sean P. DeNigris wrote:

> Frank Shearar-3 wrote
>> One thing that I should note is that it may be the case that
>> membership in an organisation is not public by default.
>
> It seems that it's up to each member. At
> https://github.com/squeak-smalltalk?tab=members I see "11 members", but only
> 5 other users listed. I also was presented with a "Publicize Membership"
> button, which I immediately and vigorously pushed ;)
>
>
>
> -----
> Cheers,
> Sean
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Squeak-s-presence-on-GitHub-tp4688328p4690627.html
> Sent from the Squeak - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>

Frank Shearar-3

Re: Squeak's presence on GitHub

In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris

On 29 May 2013 15:12, Sean P. DeNigris <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Frank Shearar-3 wrote
>> One thing that I should note is that it may be the case that
>> membership in an organisation is not public by default.
>
> It seems that it's up to each member. At
> https://github.com/squeak-smalltalk?tab=members I see "11 members", but only
> 5 other users listed. I also was presented with a "Publicize Membership"
> button, which I immediately and vigorously pushed ;)

I think the organization owner can also dictate the visibility: I see
"Conceal membership" and "Publicize membership" buttons, as
appropriate, for each member.

frank

123